High-End Audio in India

Many of you guys have cited very similar (if not the same) reasons I cited in my 1st post on this matter. It is good for me to see that I was not off the mark in my analysis!

The fact of the matter remains that hi-end audio will always be a niche market with ONLY those consumers who value reproduced music of the utmost importance. Is this a characteristic of India? No Sir, it is not! Indians love music a heck of a lot but the vast population does not care too much about its fidelity.
2ndly, listening to reproduced music in one's dedicated listening room or a dedicated 2-channel system (be it in the living room) is a VERY selfish, individualistic trait that is TOTALLY characteristic of the West cultures (where people are too well-known to do their own thing & the importance to family life is quite low). Indians, in general, are far more social people & they give family life & one-one time spent with with friends & family far more importance. Once again, is this individualistic trait part of India? It has not been TRADITIONALLY. Times are changing & the Indians living in India are adopting mannerisms from the West. Hence, the climb & importance of audio will occur but it will take time as a critical mass of the population enters this obsession (errrr.......hobby! ).

Hence, IMHO, this topic will go round & round. We will discuss the matter till we all are blue in the face BUT unless the market forces change (the importers & distributors get more passionate about this field + the consumers' awareness & knowledge of the brands takes a quantum leap), I believe, that not much is going to change in the Indian market. The Indian market is in its nascent stage of growth. Like anything in its nascent stage, there is a lot of Brownian random motions wherein a lot of energy is expended but no major tangible result is achieved. Over time I expect things to mature & take off. How much time? Depends on the industry folks. In the USA & in the EU we have IEEE bodies called AES & EBU. These societies are instrumental in advancing research in audio. They hold meetings & conferences all the time. Research from publications often gets converted to products by the audio industry. This instills some confidence in the buyers. There are collaborations between research institutes & industry - research has a pathway to production. All these things help to advance audio in the West. Maybe India should follow suit. The Indian engineering mind is world-class, I have 0% doubt of this. A vast potential in this arena can be tapped for the betterment of the burgeoning Indian audio community.

bombaywalla schrieb:

2ndly, listening to reproduced music in one's dedicated listening room or a dedicated 2-channel system (be it in the living room) is a VERY selfish, individualistic trait that is TOTALLY characteristic of the West cultures (where people are too well-known to do their own thing & the importance to family life is quite low). Indians, in general, are far more social people & they give family life & one-one time spent with with friends & family far more importance. Once again, is this individualistic trait part of India? It has not been TRADITIONALLY. Times are changing & the Indians living in India are adopting mannerisms from the West. Hence, the climb & importance of audio will occur but it will take time as a critical mass of the population enters this obsession (errrr.......hobby! ).

Maybe if speakers are developed which do away with the "sweet spot", and room correction techniques improve, this problem could be solved?

There are speakers like Duevel, MBL and the more affordable Mirage which are omnidispersion speakers which make the sweetspot huge.

the best room correction you could have is NO room at all ie put it in an open area like a verandah. (climate control be the could "rain on your Parade")

so options the are there :)) and where there is a will there is a way.

Arj schrieb:

the best room correction you could have is NO room at all ie put it in an open area like a verandah. (climate control be the could "rain on your Parade") so options the are there :)) and where there is a will there is a way.

No, wrt to the earlier post, I was trying to say that in india, audio systems which blend into our rooms might do better. If someone has spend a small fortune on a stereo setup (because his audiophile friend convinced him to :P), but is told that now he'll have to spend money (and even more effort) in treating his room, he might start to think the whole idea was futile.

i think i understand what you are trying to say..unfortunately its the room that has to be made into blending into the speakers requirement

bose and other sub sats perhaps are the only choice if we want the speaker to blend into any room...

zhopudey schrieb:

No, wrt to the earlier post, I was trying to say that in india, audio systems which blend into our rooms might do better.

c'mon man! Take a step back & think about what you are writing! Don't just write something for the sake of filling up disk space!

Can you imagine what a daunting task it would be for hi-end speakers & hi-end audio systems to blend into every possible room that they could possibly exist in worldwide?
How many different shapes & sizes & different material types for constructing rooms do you think exist worldwide?

Does infinite come to mind?
You really think that an audio system should blend into each of these room types just like that??

zhopudey schrieb:

If someone has spend a small fortune on a stereo setup (because his audiophile friend convinced him to :P), but is told that now he'll have to spend money (and even more effort) in treating his room, he might start to think the whole idea was futile.

this is where the awareness of the user has to come into the picture. The end-user has to realize what he/she is getting into & what it would entail to reach his/her end goal. If the end-user is just buying a hi-priced setup because his/her friend twisted his/her arm OR to keep up with the Patels/Aroras/Singhs/Batliwallas then that person is getting into hi-end for the incorrect reasons. As Arj stated, the most suitable product for this person is a lifestyle product from Bose/B&O, etc. This would allow such a person to use the in-built equalizer to match their room characteritics.

AN ANTI-VIEW

This topic has generated much comment.

I would like to chip in with an anti-view.

One experience I had recently. I listened to a 27 lakh equipment playing on 7.5 lakh worth speakers recently. Don’t want to take names here. It was a hifi showroom. It sounded like typical contemporary high-end sound but synthetic and cooked. Let me quote one person on Audio Asylum here when he describes synthetic sound. It describes perfectly what I experienced. Synthetic sound is typical contemporary high-end sound. My reaction to synthetic sound is "this is (or is not, as the case may be) the most amazing sounding stereo system". Synthetic sound excels at resolving detail like the number of cymbal shimmers, background sounds, fingers working frets and keys, breathing, recording session editing, etc. I can hear individual parts, but synthetic systems tend to fail at synthesizing and integrating the parts in to the whole. Or they simply distract from the holistic experience of reproduced music. They may or may not also be resolving and accurate - I've heard both. When I listen to synthetic systems, the experience is like viewing through a golden-tinted lens. It can be pleasurable, but over the long term not my cup of tea. Natural sound is typically unspectacular and unimpressive at first listen because nothing jumps out. No earth-shaking bass, ultra-sonic "air", or microscopic resolution. I guess they error in being subtractive rather than additive. Over time, they become extraordinary for not imparting electronic artifacts or artificial additives. To me, this is the correct approach.

I have heard this argument before, and it seems to make a Fundamental, Wrong assumption.... that a (GREAT) stereo system must reproduce the sound of the instrument.

Sorry Sir !

The System must reproduce the RECORDED sound. Often the recorded sound IS EXAGERATED, by putting the Mic Very close to the string instrument etc... or even tweaked / equalised.

My suggestion is that rather than split hair on whether the sound is "Natural" or not ( in most cases we have no way of telling since we dont know the venue acoustics, and the Mic-ing and eqalisation)

Enjoy THe SOUND instead, and if it stimulates you, GREAT !

If that stimulation ceases in the medium term, ( your preferences have probably changed ) move on to what YOU want( I guess we generally call it a "system Upgrade " )

The importance of the point I am making is that I see "budding Audiophiles" looking for audiophile endorsement, from 'Senior' audiophiles or their audio gurus... rather than listning for themselves, and UNASHAMEDLY acknowledging what they like or dont like.

This is stiffling and negative to truely enjoying audio and the system you have.

Please DONT be ashamed of your own opinion. Stay with your own opinion as long as YOU are convinced about it. Listing to other's opinions and then adopting and or discarding all or certain parts of it is a healthy growth stratergy, but please Do NOT get obsessed with other's opinions.

I have heard VERY expensive setup, owned by 'VERY SENIOR' audiophiles, sound the equivalent of the Emperor's New clothes.... Please do NOT shed your clothes to match the 'Emperor!'

@bombaywalla, Thats why I mentioned room correction I don't know if the current solutions are any good, but a lot of research is being done is this area.

zhopudey schrieb:

@bombaywalla, Thats why I mentioned room correction I don't know if the current solutions are any good, but a lot of research is being done is this area.

well there is. but that comes in the domain of DSP/Equalisation which would be Anathema to any Hi-Fi Purist.

However Equalisation done on the digital domain for Digital sources does make sense. the Behringer DEQ2496, Rives parc and the TaCT equlsers come to mind immediately.

on the HT front Bose ADAPTiQ and Pioneeer also used to have it but would not be surprised if it is more prevalent.

But again these re to be Done AFTER a room treatment and is usually done for the 30-80 Hz bumps and suckouts which have no solution (Of course the room contri buted standing waves on the 3 wavelengths which fall due to the 3 room dimensions may simply have noi soluion still.

but if one really does want to take the room out of the equation practically..it make sense to be a Head Fier..you can alwayts have a nice headphone amp with 4-5 headphone outputs for everyone (Not a bad idea actually..i am planning to have a Wireless HeadFi setup for by bedroom for the bedroom TV !)

Amp_Nut schrieb:

AN ANTI-VIEW T Sorry Sir ! The System must reproduce the RECORDED sound. Often the recorded sound IS EXAGERATED, by putting the Mic Very close to the string instrument etc... or even tweaked / equalised.

Sirji ..I could not agree with you More !!!!

this is true for most recordings !..especially in the 2-4Khz range. very often the problem of Sibilance/lack of imaging is in the CD itself..it does not make sense cribbing about the chesty vocals and the ssssssong
(except the Sheffield,Chesky and some of telarc etc which have so little of our usually listened songs. of course the Japanese pressing of most cds are pretty good IMHO)

Arj schrieb:

but if one really does want to take the room out of the equation practically..it make sense to be a Head Fier..you can alwayts have a nice headphone amp with 4-5 headphone outputs for everyone

Along with buttkickers, of course

Amp_Nut schrieb:

AN ANTI-VIEW This topic has generated much comment. I would like to chip in with an anti-view. One experience I had recently. I listened to a 27 lakh equipment playing on 7.5 lakh worth speakers recently. Don’t want to take names here. It was a hifi showroom. It sounded like typical contemporary high-end sound but synthetic and cooked. Let me quote one person on Audio Asylum here when he describes synthetic sound. It describes perfectly what I experienced. Synthetic sound is typical contemporary high-end sound. My reaction to synthetic sound is "this is (or is not, as the case may be) the most amazing sounding stereo system". Synthetic sound excels at resolving detail like the number of cymbal shimmers, background sounds, fingers working frets and keys, breathing, recording session editing, etc. I can hear individual parts, but synthetic systems tend to fail at synthesizing and integrating the parts in to the whole. Or they simply distract from the holistic experience of reproduced music. They may or may not also be resolving and accurate - I've heard both. When I listen to synthetic systems, the experience is like viewing through a golden-tinted lens. It can be pleasurable, but over the long term not my cup of tea. Natural sound is typically unspectacular and unimpressive at first listen because nothing jumps out. No earth-shaking bass, ultra-sonic "air", or microscopic resolution. I guess they error in being subtractive rather than additive. Over time, they become extraordinary for not imparting electronic artifacts or artificial additives. To me, this is the correct approach. I have heard this argument before, and it seems to make a Fundamental, Wrong assumption.... that a (GREAT) stereo system must reproduce the sound of the instrument. Sorry Sir ! The System must reproduce the RECORDED sound. Often the recorded sound IS EXAGERATED, by putting the Mic Very close to the string instrument etc... or even tweaked / equalised. My suggestion is that rather than split hair on whether the sound is "Natural" or not ( in most cases we have no way of telling since we dont know the venue acoustics, and the Mic-ing and eqalisation) Enjoy THe SOUND instead, and if it stimulates you, GREAT ! If that stimulation ceases in the medium term, ( your preferences have probably changed ) move on to what YOU want( I guess we generally call it a "system Upgrade " ) The importance of the point I am making is that I see "budding Audiophiles" looking for audiophile endorsement, from 'Senior' audiophiles or their audio gurus... rather than listning for themselves, and UNASHAMEDLY acknowledging what they like or dont like. This is stiffling and negative to truely enjoying audio and the system you have. Please DONT be ashamed of your own opinion. Stay with your own opinion as long as YOU are convinced about it. Listing to other's opinions and then adopting and or discarding all or certain parts of it is a healthy growth stratergy, but please Do NOT get obsessed with other's opinions. I have heard VERY expensive setup, owned by 'VERY SENIOR' audiophiles, sound the equivalent of the Emperor's New clothes.... Please do NOT shed your clothes to match the 'Emperor!' :D

The recordings I listened to were the least commercial ones. Very neutral recording with no sibilance at all. In fact I listened to a couple of them. I just could not connect with the sound because it sounded “ cooked ” and “synthetic”. The very opposite of listening to a pair of single driver rethms driven by VTL monoblocks. It may float someone else’s boat but definitely not mine. Neutral is my idea of hifi. This is my personal opinion and not affected by anybody else.

I am used to hanging around in a recording studio with a sound engineer friend of mine. This was my regular hangout for a couple of years. I have been part of the entire pipeline of the recording process for a couple of albums. The sound I hear sitting at the console through the monitors the performers / artists singing live is my benchmark for neutral. The master which is cut is usually nowhere near that quality. They do lot of “ cooking “ to get the sound the producer wants. But there are quite a number of recordings which do not have this cooked effect. They are few but those are the kind of recordings I use to audition.

Hi Square Wave,

let me clarify that my comment was NOT directed against you. In fact QUITE the Contrary.

The main point I wanted to make is that different people listen to music differently.

However many newbies get straddled with the need to hear and appreciate music only as per certain benchmarks, which they may not like or even know about.

This in turn Inhibits their ability to 'listen" , enjoy and grow as audiophiles.

These newbies prefer to take their Guru along with them for the audition and will buy based on the 'guru's" recommendations, which may or may not float their boat.

The fact that you like what you listnen to ( and hopefully your system at home delivers in that direction ) then ENJOY ! Do NOT BOTHER what I or some 'guru' says.

EACH individual's opinion IS what counts...

A studio recording is not about what the artist sounds like...its about what the artist (or the producer) wants it to sound like...

Remember Bruce's wail in the beginning of 'Hallowed be thy name'? No human can do it live...it has to be overdubbed...the trick is to do it seamlessly.

But I guess we've digressed from the topic too far...so just to bring you back, the original topic was 'High-End Audio in India'

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I have heard this argument before, and it seems to make a Fundamental, Wrong assumption.... that a (GREAT) stereo system must reproduce the sound of the instrument. Sorry Sir ! The System must reproduce the RECORDED sound. Often the recorded sound IS EXAGERATED, by putting the Mic Very close to the string instrument etc... or even tweaked / equalised. My suggestion is that rather than split hair on whether the sound is "Natural" or not ( in most cases we have no way of telling since we dont know the venue acoustics, and the Mic-ing and eqalisation) Enjoy THe SOUND instead, and if it stimulates you, GREAT ! If that stimulation ceases in the medium term, ( your preferences have probably changed ) move on to what YOU want( I guess we generally call it a "system Upgrade " )

Ahhh..I love this post...good one ampnut bhai!! .
So stunningly on your face truth .

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Square Wave, let me clarify that my comment was NOT directed against you. In fact QUITE the Contrary. The main point I wanted to make is that different people listen to music differently. However many newbies get straddled with the need to hear and appreciate music only as per certain benchmarks, which they may not like or even know about. This in turn Inhibits their ability to 'listen" , enjoy and grow as audiophiles. These newbies prefer to take their Guru along with them for the audition and will buy based on the 'guru's" recommendations, which may or may not float their boat. The fact that you like what you listnen to ( and hopefully your system at home delivers in that direction ) then ENJOY ! Do NOT BOTHER what I or some 'guru' says. EACH individual's opinion IS what counts... :prost

Agree with you this time totally……….

Hi Ampnut, Abhi,
When you say “reproduce “the recorded sound truthfully, doesn’t it also mean that such a system will reproduce the INSTRUMENT CORRECTLY if the recording is truthful to the instrument ? I think it is fairly clear.

SW... you are correct. The Key words are :

if the recording is truthful to the instrument

Actually, I would like to modify that a touch and say :

if the recording is truthful to the Natural Sound

Let me give an example...

Many audiphile recordings place the Mic close to the strings so that the movement of the fingers on the fret is recorded. In a 'Natural' performance, we would not ( get a chance ? ) to put our ears so close to the guitar, as where the mic is placed.

Ditto for a drum, beaten by a hand or fingers. The Mic placement is INTENDED to create hightened awareness of certain textures of sound, which a listner may not hear if he was seated 20 feet away, without electronic amplification...

In these cases, it can be argued that the recording is not 'natural' or it is exagerated ....

LOTS of audiophikles love it. I do too !

To me its an audio treat Just like a good chocolate or a single malt, which in their own way present / highlight certain flavours

The term HIGH END is faulted, there is no "End" if it was there we could have said X product is 89% of Highend, just like 42% proof whiskey etc.

Let one member show his face to me who has a set up which reproduces music in an uncoloured manner.. it's impossible!. So folks let's go and listen to what we like and how we like. Why try to put your way of listening as the best or heck even as a yardstick to measure naturality. Some even follow a certain rules like in an autocratic regime...Is there someone who can define natural to me?

Many audiphile recordings place the Mic close to the strings so that the movement of the fingers on the fret is recorded. In a 'Natural' performance, we would not ( get a chance ? ) to put our ears so close to the guitar, as where the mic is placed. Ditto for a drum, beaten by a hand or fingers. The Mic placement is INTENDED to create hightened awareness of certain textures of sound, which a listner may not hear if he was seated 20 feet away, without electronic amplification...

Perfect.. so when next time when someone makes a statement that music is natural only when you hear it unamplified state my conclusion would be that he hears music but not intrinsic details. I would also like to know then is it possible that you he hears all details? If he can then he is super human or unless you have guitarist next to your left ear and drummer on your right ear and singer oops not to cross the border of dignity.
..So ideally it has to be on a source and set up which fulfills your way of listening and who cares what naturality is as no one has heard it.
This debate is endless as each tries to prove that his experience or definition of natural is best ( like a 16 year old brags about his first lay).. So dudes back to Viren.

Sub..whats the point you are tryng to make ??? ?

I am not sure what the indignation is about !

Sub..whats the point you are tryng to make ??? ?

The point is I don't need some a** to tell me what music is and how I have to listen. Audio field is flooded with many such who dictate what you have to listen and how and if you don't do it that way you don't know music. This kind of crap is broadcasted by money minded dealers and manufacturers and you have hundreds of chelas blindly following em. I have seen few who actually don't mind stooping down to level of making extreme illogocal points to defend their gurus. The point is if you want natural music then go for unamplified and live where you miss all intrinsic details unless you listen as I suggested earlier.. or use a recorded source and enjoy music in the colour you like..remember if someone tells you he has a setup which sounds natural then he is actually nuts as the moment guitar sound enters recording mic tonality is changed...
Even is someone debates that live music is best it depends where you are seated.. do you all sit exactly in a seat of an orcehstra where singer is right in front of you and rest of them around???If not then why talk crap here let's use the coloured boxes to listen recorded versions.

I am not sure what the indignation is about !

Coz you are not upgrading from A21.. cheers..

What about "High end in India"

What about "High end in India"

You really want Hi-end... see my PM

Amp_Nut schrieb:

AN ANTI-VIEW This topic has generated much comment. I would like to chip in with an anti-view. I have heard this argument before, and it seems to make a Fundamental, Wrong assumption.... that a (GREAT) stereo system must reproduce the sound of the instrument. Sorry Sir ! The System must reproduce the RECORDED sound. Often the recorded sound IS EXAGERATED, by putting the Mic Very close to the string instrument etc... or even tweaked / equalised. My suggestion is that rather than split hair on whether the sound is "Natural" or not ( in most cases we have no way of telling since we dont know the venue acoustics, and the Mic-ing and eqalisation) Enjoy THe SOUND instead, and if it stimulates you, GREAT ! If that stimulation ceases in the medium term, ( your preferences have probably changed ) move on to what YOU want( I guess we generally call it a "system Upgrade " ) The importance of the point I am making is that I see "budding Audiophiles" looking for audiophile endorsement, from 'Senior' audiophiles or their audio gurus... rather than listning for themselves, and UNASHAMEDLY acknowledging what they like or dont like. This is stiffling and negative to truely enjoying audio and the system you have. Please DONT be ashamed of your own opinion. Stay with your own opinion as long as YOU are convinced about it. Listing to other's opinions and then adopting and or discarding all or certain parts of it is a healthy growth stratergy, but please Do NOT get obsessed with other's opinions. I have heard VERY expensive setup, owned by 'VERY SENIOR' audiophiles, sound the equivalent of the Emperor's New clothes.... Please do NOT shed your clothes to match the 'Emperor!' :D

Amp_Nut,
I would like to say that your viewpoint is far from ANTI! In fact, your view-point runs parallel to the thread in that the dictum should be that EVERYONE should be enjoying their stereo setups at whatever resp. point in their evolution of audiophilia they are. The additional dictum should be to enjoy the MUSIC rather the SOUND of their stereo setup. 3rdly, EVERYONE should be stimulated with the reproduction ability of their setup & they should be able to move up/lateral/down in equipment as their personal situation desires. And.........................


it is the ability to get these different levels of performing gear In INDIA that we are talking about!!
The audiophile population in India would like to see more expansive lists to gear to suit various personal situations & pocket books. They would like to see more vested interests in this field from importers, distributors, retailers & consumers (barring those on this forum because all of you are already committed 100+% to the cause).

IMHO, what you have cited is what each one of us should be doing once we have selected our stereo setup based on our abilities (which includes purchasing, knowledge & domestic abilities).

I also agree w/ the "don't be ashamed of your own opinions bit" & the keeping an open mind so that learning & growth occurs.


SUB_BOSS, you indignation is too much & TOTALLY needless! Stuff the indignation where the Sun don't shine! If you have the ability to discuss in a civil & non bent-out-shape manner, please do so!
Keep your flames at home!

bombaywalla schrieb:

The audiophile population in India would like to see more expansive lists to gear to suit various personal situations & pocket books.

Aah I like this statement . Expansive sounds so much more relevant than Expensive.

Guys,

Pls chill, just forget all this and just sit back and listen to your system whatever it may be and have a nice single malt. IMHO

Again and again we keep getting into to all this without the main objective that is to enjoy the music. Some love it on a Rs 500 Radio, some love it on a hi-end system of many lacs, end of the day its the music that matters.

While you guys are posting away, I with my leg still in a not so good condition have listened to so much of music without even getting up to change the CD, that my lovely little darling daughter of 6 years old does for me.

It feels nice to listen to a whole CD at one time rather than jumping tracks. Just my two bit.

Hi Prithvi, you're quite right , as usual,abt reminding us where our focus should be-could'nt agree more!
Hows the leg shaping up?
Do get well soon, man!
What are you listening to these days?
Thre;s a thread "Now Playing " for this purpose-do add to it.

Hi! Kamal,

Am much better thank you. Still on crutches though, may take another 1-2 weeks to get back on my feet. Will post what I am listening to on the new post.

Rgds

Prithvi

Hello all,
This thread is about "High-End" audio in India and its plight and that is what I am trying to highlight in my posting. I have found myself at work on a Saturday and thus found some time to ponder over this scenario. It is such a viscous circle which the distributor nor the dealer nor the consumer can yet break out off. The prime cause as yet is the consuming public, which is far less for "economies of scale" to work its magic. We are a big nation with a few of us purchasers spread apart.

The distributor as an entity is faced with two major problems. Firstly, he is dealing in a specialised commodity which is not “fast moving” or run-off-the-mill. His profitability “seems” slow as his client base is inherently narrow (industry scenario) and secondly, a 60 percent mark-up in the form of duties and sundries (factual) on his transfer price. Being faced with this duty structure and a slow turnover book, he has to be choosy in his order, selective in his quantities, thus resulting in a very limited import.

The dealer in turn is thus not well stocked with lovely, mouth-watering gear. As his consumer base is narrow (industry scenario) and his turnover is slow to non-existent at times to turn him a genuine return of investment, he is de-motivated to open a showroom, as rents are astronomical and can only add to his financial struggle.

Thus, the Distributor and the Dealer are needed to sell their “limited” imports at astronomical rates to turn them a profit.

As consumers, we want good demo rooms to evaluate the gear. We want the dealers to be well stocked and offcourse, want healthy discounts too. Our current industry scenario cannot allow this to materialise.

Only when the consumer base grows considerably larger can the dealer see a running income and thus be motivated, can the distributor be encouraged to be doing a turnover with smaller margins can the consumers then enjoy good quality showrooms and hear plentiful gear and can it be priced lower. Until then I am afraid, we will stay caught up in this circle. Yes, the circle can be broken in real-time by big institutions/mega distributors entering the fray with long-term financing and plans but the industry then looses its dedicated and passionate souls. I pray that this industry grows fast and well and it stays within a closely knit family of dedicated and passionate dealers and distributors.

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:

Hello all, This thread is about "High-End" audio in India and its plight and that is what I am trying to highlight in my posting. I have found myself at work on a Saturday and thus found some time to ponder over this scenario. It is such a viscous circle which the distributor nor the dealer nor the consumer can yet break out off. The prime cause as yet is the consuming public, which is far less for "economies of scale" to work its magic. We are a big nation with a few of us purchasers spread apart. The distributor as an entity is faced with two major problems. Firstly, he is dealing in a specialised commodity which is not “fast moving” or run-off-the-mill. His profitability “seems” slow as his client base is inherently narrow (industry scenario) and secondly, a 60 percent mark-up in the form of duties and sundries (factual) on his transfer price. Being faced with this duty structure and a slow turnover book, he has to be choosy in his order, selective in his quantities, thus resulting in a very limited import. The dealer in turn is thus not well stocked with lovely, mouth-watering gear. As his consumer base is narrow (industry scenario) and his turnover is slow to non-existent at times to turn him a genuine return of investment, he is de-motivated to open a showroom, as rents are astronomical and can only add to his financial struggle. Thus, the Distributor and the Dealer are needed to sell their “limited” imports at astronomical rates to turn them a profit. As consumers, we want good demo rooms to evaluate the gear. We want the dealers to be well stocked and offcourse, want healthy discounts too. Our current industry scenario cannot allow this to materialise. Only when the consumer base grows considerably larger can the dealer see a running income and thus be motivated, can the distributor be encouraged to be doing a turnover with smaller margins can the consumers then enjoy good quality showrooms and hear plentiful gear and can it be priced lower. Until then I am afraid, we will stay caught up in this circle. Yes, the circle can be broken in real-time by big institutions/mega distributors entering the fray with long-term financing and plans but the industry then looses its dedicated and passionate souls. I pray that this industry grows fast and well and it stays within a closely knit family of dedicated and passionate dealers and distributors.

Beautifully articulated, you really switched it on
I agree with you about this viscious circle. And the fact about bigger institutions / mega distributers / deeper pockets - one of the thing that comes to my mind is ProFX. They seem to have expensive showrooms in plush localities in the cities they are in. I wonder if they are able to justify such an investment, rather are many people buying at ProFx? If thats the case then hey have they uncovered the rich market? Bose is probably the case in point that focuses so much on lifestyle marketing that every one wants to be rich and own a bose. Why not have these audiophile brands do such marketing? Why not come in the open (public domain) and do targeted marketing, guerilla marketing? That said, marketing means investment, investment means ploughing back your profits in business / deep pockets. Now thats a viscious circle.

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:

Hello all, This thread is about "High-End" audio in India and its plight and that is what I am trying to highlight in my posting. I have found myself at work on a Saturday and thus found some time to ponder over this scenario. It is such a viscous circle which the distributor nor the dealer nor the consumer can yet break out off. The prime cause as yet is the consuming public, which is far less for "economies of scale" to work its magic. We are a big nation with a few of us purchasers spread apart. The distributor as an entity is faced with two major problems. Firstly, he is dealing in a specialised commodity which is not “fast moving” or run-off-the-mill. His profitability “seems” slow as his client base is inherently narrow (industry scenario) and secondly, a 60 percent mark-up in the form of duties and sundries (factual) on his transfer price. Being faced with this duty structure and a slow turnover book, he has to be choosy in his order, selective in his quantities, thus resulting in a very limited import. The dealer in turn is thus not well stocked with lovely, mouth-watering gear. As his consumer base is narrow (industry scenario) and his turnover is slow to non-existent at times to turn him a genuine return of investment, he is de-motivated to open a showroom, as rents are astronomical and can only add to his financial struggle. Thus, the Distributor and the Dealer are needed to sell their “limited” imports at astronomical rates to turn them a profit. As consumers, we want good demo rooms to evaluate the gear. We want the dealers to be well stocked and offcourse, want healthy discounts too. Our current industry scenario cannot allow this to materialise. Only when the consumer base grows considerably larger can the dealer see a running income and thus be motivated, can the distributor be encouraged to be doing a turnover with smaller margins can the consumers then enjoy good quality showrooms and hear plentiful gear and can it be priced lower. Until then I am afraid, we will stay caught up in this circle. Yes, the circle can be broken in real-time by big institutions/mega distributors entering the fray with long-term financing and plans but the industry then looses its dedicated and passionate souls. I pray that this industry grows fast and well and it stays within a closely knit family of dedicated and passionate dealers and distributors.

Agree with you.
Sad plight we are in. I look forward to see more Indian brands doing hi-end stuff so that we can save on the duties, transportation and other overheads cost. Even tiny European counties have such a vast selection of hi-end manufacturers. I wonder why we have so very few.

Prithvi wrote :

Pls chill, just forget all this and just sit back and listen to your system whatever it may be and have a nice single malt. IMHO

Best I have ever heard.

Bombaywalla wrote :

SUB_BOSS, you indignation is too much & TOTALLY needless! Stuff the indignation where the Sun don't shine!

Indignation is indeed needed as this was the topic where sun never shined and had to throw some light .........or if your statement ''Stuff the indignation where the Sun don't shine'' meant something else then you are discussing in a non civil manner.

If you have the ability to discuss in a civil & non bent-out-shape manner, please do so! Keep your flames at home!

Now talking of ability to discuss in a civil manner no one don't needs a moral police man to judge things and each is entiltled to discuss in his own way and is someone gets upset it's nothing to do with me.
And as far as keeping flames at home is concerned it looks to me from your post you are also carrying some with you.

That said, marketing means investment, investment means ploughing back your profits in business / deep pockets. Now thats a viscious circle.

No I would disagree as everyone is a business man and your returns are bound to be on equation with investment, So if a dealer invests heavily and sits on it, Then his profit has to definetely cover his overheads when he isn't selling anything.

going back to Amp_Nuts post on live music vs recording am referencing a rather interesting topic on the same lines at audioasylum

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=speakers&m=254441

I do not agree with the poster on the M30 though..i have heard the M40 do a wonderful job at imaging hence am assuming his placement could be further tuned.

Good reading Arj.
I am of the school of thought that the most realistic way to compare your system is to “ live unamplified music “.
I have felt that when listening to small ensembles at close quarters, it resembles what is achievable at home. Especially the ones that do not have much amplification.

Large performances at bigger venues are a different matter altogether. The sound at the venue is pumped up at certain frequencies to keep the adrenaline flowing and the bite of highs through the professional horns are difficult to recreate at home. Again there is no “ gold standard “ to the quality of amplification / loudspeakers used, position of microphones etc… so it is a futile exercise to recreate the same sound at home.

Recordings done in the studio are a different matter altogether..Studio ones tend to have a very analytical feel to it. You can hear the fingers on the frets, the feet on the pedal of the piano. The breath of the singer etc…It has got its own charm though…I enjoy both.

When people say bass is tight and loose etc…at the venue, it depends on where they sit and the quality of sound reproduction equipment used at the venue. It may not directly co-relate to what is on the recording captured at the live event unless it is a classical performance which may be entirely recorded from the feed from the microphones. Most rock is recorded from the feed to the soundboard mix. The usual solution for recording live is a mixture of board sound and room sound so the mixture coming of the soundboard will be clean and un-distorted but what you hear at a concert is determined by the quality of sound reproduction equipment used at the venue. So if the bass is tight in the recording done off the sound board, it may not necessarily be the same with the sound at the same venue. It will vary depending on where you sit and quality of equipment used while the same recording may sound very tight at home if your equipment is upto it.

When people say bass is tight and loose etc…at the venue, it depends on where they sit and the quality of sound reproduction equipment used at the venue

Dont forget the acoustics of the Venue Itself.

Even concert Hall acoustics can range from shabby to Fantastic !

I recall switch-it-on telling me that the acoustics of a Concert Hall in Taiwan was Fantastic... it projected the Orchestra Way beyond the physical walls of the hall itself .

Is this also a Hi Fi colouration ? A larger than life acoustic presentation ?