Sweet Vs Raw sound

Good topic Siva.
The ProAc would most defnitely be in the Sweet category for me and so does the Sugde,n.
I see that i keep checking for used sugdens on audiogon every now and then..hoping to get lucky..

Can you elaborate a little bit sachi

sivat schrieb:

There are some of us who like the "Sweet"/"Euphononic" sound. Examples of few brands that immediately comes to my mind are Marantz, Burmester, Jeff Rowland, etc., There is the other side to this camp...which is relativly a bit more raw sound. Examples of these could be Krell, Wilson Audio, Linn, etc.. (Bhagwan, Prithvi, Arj, please add some names to these category) Here is intention : I think a raw sound is very essential to bring out the life from the 50's Jazz recordings(which i like most). The same i think would be true to Hindustani as well ( now you know, which camp i belong too). This is my perspective.....what do you think.. What is not the intention : All of us have different taste....and the individual taste has to be respected. So before we beging this discussion, let us keep that in mind and respect everyone's feedback.

I obviously being the neophyte in the Jazz camp feel diferently(could possibly change once i get more into Jazz i guess). I feel that there is a lot more depth in the music. The emotions of the musician seem to flow thourgh the instument that he plays. YOu just feel like laying back and streching your legs and listen and listen and listen..i wouud defnitely prefer a sweet sound for jazz..butthat;s the great part isn't it..we have choices!!

I would definitely like “raw neutral sound “.
But achieving neutral sound in its purest form is a very expensive thing to do .Hence I would like to stay in the sweet side of neutral as long as I can only afford mid-fi level gear. The “raw side of neutral” at budget / midfi level is very un-involving and boring for me.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Can you elaborate a little bit sachi

well defining stereo as sweet and raw may be a bit too simplistic.
But since the topic asks you to choose between them i would like to be in the sweet category. Sweet meaning the way i would like to hear it...it is how we prefer a rendition to an original and vice versa.

Siva,
As you know I too am a big fan of jazz of the 50's and 60's. As a matter of fact I have listened to these old recordings(some of them quite stunning and still cant be topped) on various systems.

Since that was the age where the musicians could hold a tune(...and how !) and were masters at subtle variations as well as the not so subtle, their timing was immaculate, rhythm was in their veins, so a system which is capable of reproducing these subtle variations and with good PRAT would be great. Not so much raw or sweet.

eg MJQ pyramid, lionel hampton stardust(40's), the brubeck quartet recordings, Sarah Vaughan sings Gershwin, West side story by Andre Previn.

Manek.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Can you elaborate a little bit sachi

i'll let u know when i hit the sweetspot..

SUB_BOSS wrote: Can you elaborate a little bit sachi well defining stereo as sweet and raw may be a bit too simplistic. But since the topic asks you to choose between them i would like to be in the sweet category. Sweet meaning the way i would like to hear it...it is how we prefer a rendition to an original and vice versa.

Thanks for your elabo but I expected some elabo on undermentioned lines of yours

I see that i keep checking for used sugdens on audiogon every now and then..hoping to get lucky..

SavyaSachi wrote :

i'll let u know when i hit the sweetspot..

Or G-Spot...

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

SUB_BOSS wrote: Can you elaborate a little bit sachi well defining stereo as sweet and raw may be a bit too simplistic. But since the topic asks you to choose between them i would like to be in the sweet category. Sweet meaning the way i would like to hear it...it is how we prefer a rendition to an original and vice versa. Thanks for your elabo but I expected some elabo on undermentioned lines of yours I see that i keep checking for used sugdens on audiogon every now and then..hoping to get lucky..

that in itself has two parts ain't it ..the getting lucky one and the thing abt the sugdens... .


Right now i am saving up to make a big purchase(for me at least) by the end of the year. mostly would be a Senn HD580, if i got gaga might picth in for the 650s.

my days of listening to good old stereo are over for the next coupleof years at lesat.. ..next best thing is a class A tube amp with a pair of Senns. And god knows that the Senns are made for 'sweet' sound .

Till date whatever system I have developed a liking for, all of them have turned out to be on the sweeter side. Coincidentally, whenever I have disliked a system, it has mostly been raw sounding....e.g Krell, Brystons, NAD, Linn(Linn speakers only).
But then I also couldnt develop a lot of liking for the super smooth and sweet Cadence VA-1 Tube amp.

Hence I would guess I am in the camp of Sweet-Raw sound (sweet taking the preference here).

Manek schrieb:

Siva, As you know I too am a big fan of jazz of the 50's and 60's. As a matter of fact I have listened to these old recordings(some of them quite stunning and still cant be topped) on various systems. Since that was the age where the musicians could hold a tune(...and how !) and were masters at subtle variations as well as the not so subtle, their timing was immaculate, rhythm was in their veins, so a system which is capable of reproducing these subtle variations and with good PRAT would be great. Not so much raw or sweet. eg MJQ pyramid, lionel hampton stardust(40's), the brubeck quartet recordings, Sarah Vaughan sings Gershwin, West side story by Andre Previn. Manek.

Manek,

A quick question ...

"PRAT"

Of late, i've been hearning this this term very often...what does it stand for.

Regards
Siva.

abhi.pani schrieb:

\\ Hence I would guess I am in the camp of Sweet-Raw sound (sweet taking the preference here).

Too much Abhi..

Siva...
To me it stands for good old "pace, rhythm and timing".

Any other definitions

Manek.

sivat schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: \\ Hence I would guess I am in the camp of Sweet-Raw sound (sweet taking the preference here). images/smilies/insane.gif Too much Abhi..

Not my fault...this hobby is the culprit

.....But...I would like the system to have a smooth sound.

Manek.

Manek schrieb:

Since that was the age where the musicians could hold a tune(...and how !) and were masters at subtle variations as well as the not so subtle, their timing was immaculate, rhythm was in their veins, so a system which is capable of reproducing these subtle variations and with good PRAT would be great. Not so much raw or sweet. eg MJQ pyramid, lionel hampton stardust(40's), the brubeck quartet recordings, Sarah Vaughan sings Gershwin, West side story by Andre Previn.

Manek,

You have hit the right note. Most of these recordings were not practised ... but instantaneous. The sheer energy of some of these recordings hits you hard...on the right system.

Some of the setup (euphonic), that i've heard ...actually "tamed" (slight coloration) the sound and robbed this energy from the music. Result is a sound - that still sounds musical...but without the adrenaline.


Regards
Siva.

sivat schrieb:

Manek, You have hit the right note. Most of these recordings were not practised ... but instantaneous. The sheer energy of some of these recordings hits you hard...on the right system. Some of the setup (euphonic), that i've heard ...actually "tamed" (slight coloration) the sound and robbed this energy from the music. Result is a sound - that still sounds musical...but without the adrenaline. Regards Siva.

Manek/Siva, This is really interesting, moving on to a slighly different note, do you feel this extra emphasis on post editing these days robs music of that "emotion" in music.
somhow when everybody is in sync and that subtle variations based on the mood of the master musician come in, somhow makes music more involving !

and that perhaps is a standout feature of the old is gold recordings ?


these days even the recording is done at different times and the musicians are just responding to cues and not the involvement and the emotion they see on each others faces !
maybe thats why live recordings of concerts are so much more interesting..the only thing i cannot stand is the recordig of the clapping ! thats a turnoff for me !

Well as Arj elaborates to what Manek is stating,the multi-track phenomena of the recording industry.I refer to multitracking within the recording industry as mastrubation.Each artist goes and does his thing seperately on a previously loaded rhythm track, just like you would jerk off,no interaction with the other musicians on a musical level at all.My opinion.
Deaf.

deaf schrieb:

Well as Arj elaborates to what Manek is stating,the multi-track phenomena of the recording industry.I refer to multitracking within the recording industry as mastrubation.Each artist goes and does his thing seperately on a previously loaded rhythm track, just like you would jerk off,no interaction with the other musicians on a musical level at all.My opinion. Deaf.

and i presume it is not just the music, even bands are "marketed" and glitzed.. it is not just pure music anymore..

still we do have gems which are produced. better to grab them now before they disappear !

Hello All,

Yes, this is quite a "Universal Topic". Everyone around the globe talks about this... Manufactures, users, reviewers... However, amongst all these discriptions on the "sound" of the Set-Up or individual gear, we have lost focus on why "Hi-End" or any end of audio was developed to start with. Its objective was to help reproduce as-close-to-possible, "LIVE" sound in your listining space. Thus the years of engineering through the 70s to the 80s to the 90s. It is also the reason why we read and brouse and evaluate gear and cables and racks and the whole lot that goes with it... working on the last "M.M." of placement. If, at the end of it all, a sax is going to sound rounded or sweet or a singer "Honeyed" when raw, it might as well be a two-in-one. To me its no different then to a 50,000.00 $ setup. Thus, my advice as always is to work towards a sound that is as close to "Live" as possible. I idolise and patronise the manufactures who strive to achive that.

Lots of Luck.

deaf schrieb:

Well as Arj elaborates to what Manek is stating,the multi-track phenomena of the recording industry.I refer to multitracking within the recording industry as mastrubation.Each artist goes and does his thing seperately on a previously loaded rhythm track, just like you would jerk off,no interaction with the other musicians on a musical level at all.My opinion. Deaf.

Ha ha…………similar thoughts here……I can’t seem to think of a better way to put it

Agree to the striving to live part.

theoretically the sound from the hifi of a recording should be the same as what the performer is playing

Although the idea is to get as close to the "live" as possible, the only pratical way is to get as close to the "recording" of the live as possible.

and we know how varying the recordings are.

Thats when the whole new problem of attempting to like the good quality recordings available vs continuing to enjoy music which one likes to begins.

And of course there is no real answer to that !


if one were willing to spend the $50K+ on audio then of course it would not be spent on euphonic sounding gear. I am pretty sure that accuracy /neutrality to source would be of primary importance here

for a lower budget the above may not fully possible and most of us who are in the $1K-5K area would definitely be compromising on neutrality , and that means colouring. but most people end up liking their shade of colour anyway


would be very interesting to hear about the brands you feel are truly neutral. have never really seriously fixed on a reference system as neutral to compare the others to hence the interest.

from what i have been told, the Ayre components and the older Mark Levinson components have been very neutral to source.

Manek schrieb:

Siva... To me it stands for good old "pace, rhythm and timing". Any other definitions Manek.

used to be a very hot topic in the older "flat earthers". Naim was supposed to epitomise a different range of audiophiles. for whom it was the realism "pace, rthytm and timing" which was more important than soundstaging and separation (hence flat earth)

seems to have died with the naim (pun intended )

but PRAT is now a more accepted norm for music enjoyment

I prefer a tastefuly coloured sytem till it bores me with its everpresent colours Hope you will understand what I mean by this. Trying to reach the ultimate neutral system is like searching for the holy grail, you may get very close but still there are variables that is beyond the control.

Arjun has brought out a very important point of music industry that is much more important than neutral systems or coloured systems.

Deaf your comment on multitracking is certainly one the best of 2006, I will keep it mind to use it later on with due credit to you.

Warm regards

Anil

Sorry, don't agree with most of you!

That neutrality spectre has come up again. And the feeling that the more you spend on your system, the more neutral it gets! This just follows some of the marketing hype that the big audio companies put out.

If you want to keep a lot of the subjectivity out, please do go and listen to live music, preferbly acoustic, in a good hall. That's like "neutralizing" the environment, so that you are left just with music. Enjoy it for the moment it is; then come back to your home system, and see if it gives you a similar measure of that enjoyment.

That's the best we can with our audio systems - try and get a sense of that "live" experience. And, for a fact, the cost of the audio system has absolutely nothing to do with it!

At home, of course, the quality of the recording also comes into play. The earler recordings sound so much better because the audio engineers in that era understood and liked the music they were recording. That sensibility showed in their recordings. Todays engineers are just knob twiddlers.

You'd still be surprised how many recordings do seem to capture that spirit. Often it's our audio systems that are lacking.

Viren.

Like Arj has explained, majority of music today is composed in a studio by fitting together various pieces. This kind of music, i agree is very popular today...compared to Hindustani music.

Now for the controvertial part...

Many of us actually think that ... listening to Hindustani or old-Jazz is an acquired taste. I will strongly disagree on this.

On a system that will do "real justice" to (hindustani) this form of music...even the most die-hard fan of Bollywood music might actually start enjoying Bhimsen Joshi !!!

I think it is very difficult to reproduce the real spirit of Hindustani (or western classical or carnatic or Jazz..) music at home. The system that i'm referring to - need not be expensive...just the right one. Maybe ... this could be one measure when we setup our audio system at home ??.

It will be nice to hear comments from folks who listened to live performance of hindustani artists, in this regard.

Regards
Siva.

viren schrieb:

Sorry, don't agree with most of you! That neutrality spectre has come up again. And the feeling that the more you spend on your system, the more neutral it gets! This just follows some of the marketing hype that the big audio companies put out. If you want to keep a lot of the subjectivity out, please do go and listen to live music, preferbly acoustic, in a good hall. That's like "neutralizing" the environment, so that you are left just with music. Enjoy it for the moment it is; then come back to your home system, and see if it gives you a similar measure of that enjoyment. That's the best we can with our audio systems - try and get a sense of that "live" experience. And, for a fact, the cost of the audio system has absolutely nothing to do with it! At home, of course, the quality of the recording also comes into play. The earler recordings sound so much better because the audio engineers in that era understood and liked the music they were recording. That sensibility showed in their recordings. Todays engineers are just knob twiddlers. You'd still be surprised how many recordings do seem to capture that spirit. Often it's our audio systems that are lacking. Viren.

There are three parameters...that we are talking about

1) The correctness of the audio setup Vs Live Performance
2) The aspect of "House Sound"
3) Personal preference for what the sound at home... should be !!

WRT to Parameter 1, i'll agree that most of our systems will lack compared to live system. At the end of the day, it is a personal preference as to what we are willing to compromise...and what we do not want to let-go.

Issue no 1. with "House sound"

All of us perceive the reprocduced sound to be "correct", based on our own personal judgment. So each designer has his own perspective of what is the right sound...resulting in different house sound.

Issue no 2. with "House sound"

Some companies actually do NOT believe in "Correct sound"...they say audio equipment are musical instrument by themself...and they have to sound musical on its own. This philosophy is completely the opposite of what you just described.

As some of the forum members have already mentioed, some of us prefer to have a colored sound..which is more pleasant....even though we know it might not be the real sound. I do not see any isssue with that either..

Regards
Siva.

viren schrieb:

If you want to keep a lot of the subjectivity out, please do go and listen to live music, preferbly acoustic, in a good hall. That's like "neutralizing" the environment, so that you are left just with music. Enjoy it for the moment it is; then come back to your home system, and see if it gives you a similar measure of that enjoyment. That's the best we can with our audio systems - try and get a sense of that "live" experience. Viren.

am glad at least one manufacturer has the basics right, a system that focuses on reproducing music, conveying the soul of the music whether its rock, jazz, classical, blues.

stevieboy schrieb:

viren schrieb: If you want to keep a lot of the subjectivity out, please do go and listen to live music, preferbly acoustic, in a good hall. That's like "neutralizing" the environment, so that you are left just with music. Enjoy it for the moment it is; then come back to your home system, and see if it gives you a similar measure of that enjoyment. That's the best we can with our audio systems - try and get a sense of that "live" experience. Viren. am glad at least one manufacturer has the basics right, a system that focuses on reproducing music, conveying the soul of the music whether its rock, jazz, classical, blues.

ahh Steieboy...further patronising the manufacturer of your new Tube amp i see..

hehe. and i'm bloody proud of my amp :D. i got it expecting just a little bit, with the option of returning it if i didnt like it, but its given me much much more. without any hype, it's cured me of cadence. somehow, though the va 1 is refined and all that, in the combination of the va 1 and the aritas and va 1 and the avitas, it simply lacks soul compared to viren's amp. drop in when you back for a vacation or a visit. judge for yourself.

stevieboy schrieb:

hehe. and i'm bloody proud of my amp :D. i got it expecting just a little bit, with the option of returning it if i didnt like it, but its given me much much more. without any hype, it's cured me of cadence. somehow, though the va 1 is refined and all that, in the combination of the va 1 and the aritas and va 1 and the avitas, it simply lacks soul compared to viren's amp. drop in when you back for a vacation or a visit. judge for yourself.

hehe..i don't blame you..
btw, WIll definitely take you up on that offer..

Hi,

Arj has spoken well. Its true, let the system get to the heart of the recording and not add or subtract. Let the recording show emotion, acoustic space, vibrancy... and at times also its poorness in quality.

Yes, there are a few setups/gear that I have listened to that strive to achive neutrality, and that doesnot mean dull and boring. Neutality is as close to realism of the recording/venue.

1. GamuT - Its their design philosophy.

2. The Gryphon - Used along with their own speakers, simply stunning.

3. Lumenwhite Speakers with Jadis Amplification

4. Ayre

5. Mark Levinson 33 with the B&W 800 Signature.

6. Top-of-the-line Goldmund system

7. Manger Loudspeakers. Though, proper pairing is essential.

8. Dynaudio - Contour 1.1, 1.3, 1.3 SE. Confidence 5. (Their earlier lot)

9. Myryad

10. NAD Silverline Series. NAD 320 BEE with Monitor audio speakers.

11. Dartzeel Amplification.

12. Xavian Speakers

13. Castle Audio Speakers

These are a few that come to my mind straight away. I am sure i have missed many more such. Thus, there is no drought of manufactures that strive for/towards this goal.

it simply lacks soul compared to viren's amp.

WOW....now thats something I would like to hear...

WOW....now thats something I would like to hear...

if steviw really means this then I will make space in my rack for viren's milk bottles

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:

Hi, 9. Myryad 13. Castle Audio Speakers

Gamut amps is somthing special and ill agree with you right away especially the D100,( ??) i think

Myriad.. good components but very surprised to see it here..never tohught of it as neutral but have very little forst had experiecen with them.

CAstle audio is from what i hear warmish with a dry bass.. i am pretty sure they are not neutral except for their entry level bookshelf . their floorstanders a beautiful no doubt but i would find it difficult to call them neutral

Can someone give me more info about Stevieboy's amp or some link where I can look up for details..

www.lyrita-audio.in. pm him for details. though you'd get more over the phone.

you'll hear it anyway in a month or so if you're willing to not get too over analytical over how much/ little bass is there, how warm/ cold it is or how good/ muddy the mids are and instead just listen to the music you'll hear what i hear. i've never heard rock sound so good on any system. sure the solid states i've heard, abhi yours included, packed more 'punch' but something was missing for me. abhi at your place i wanted to turn the volume down, not to say your system is bad but i prefer subtlety. editing this here to clarify. different guitarists get different tones out of their guitar. jeff beck is oh so different from hendrix or blackmore or gilmore. its this i call subtlety. rock and subtlety dont quite go in the same sentence hence the explanation so if both u guys prefer a punch in the chest, you'll be disappointed. just a frame of reference so you know where i'm coming from.

hence my choice of single driver speakers also. the compromises they offer are the ones i'm willing to live with for the pros they offer.

by the way be my good pal for some years and you just might get to hear a good SET

where do you stay? if not too far i could look at bringing it over. its damn expensive lugging it around. have to hire a damn taxi!

sub, the va1 is a hybrid so thats where it loses out in the sound. (for me).

incidentally heard my amp with squarewave's acoustic portrait floorstanders and it had more than enough bass. and the volume was not even full. his valve pre and solid state power had more bass punch but for sheer tone he agreed nothing like an all valve set up. and his speakers were not even an ideal match for my low powered amp cos they had two mid-bass drivers. with a simpler bookshelf it's magic. get in touch with him for his opinion of it too.

abhi at your place i wanted to turn the volume down

Its something that even I worry about. My room doesnt allow higher volumes...it just doesnt...it can only get irritating/painful from there on. Now thats something I have to tackle with through acoustics treatment in the long run. Speaker placement should help a bit but since I am yet to buy the speaker stands, moving the speakers around is a pain.

Nonetheless, I would definitely want to hear what you have heard in your amp. Lets see if I could bring the Dyns in..

[quote="abhi.pani"][quote]

Now thats something I have to tackle with through acoustics treatment in the long run.

Nonetheless, I would definitely want to hear what you have heard in your amp. Lets see if I could bring the Dyns in.. [/quote]

am doing that. it makes a huge difference. for you though i'd suggest just a couple of panels against the front wall behind the speakers. these can be moved so only when you're listening you can bring them out and lean them against the wall. you'd get a bigger much more noticeable difference than with speaker stands. so if the wife doesnt have a problem... there's a place in indiranager acutone or anutone which make absorbers and diffusers. i'll give you the number if you're interested.

dont know how well they'd do with the dynes. they're 86db i think but it certainly would be interesting!

what you may need to be more concerned about is how your amp works with 4 ohm loads.

dyns are not so tough to drive due to their sensitivity, but if the amp does not have enough juice to run (not power but current capability) it will do a poor job of doing so

please do check with viren before attempting it

ah gracias arj. will do so. viren ahoy! do post your reply here if you're reading this.

Ya, as many have already confirmed having heard Dyns with tubes with great results, so it could be interesting if everything else is fine.

Regarding the room treatment, I will need to wait for some more time. Though I know stands can make less difference than acoustic treatments but for the aesthetic aspect of it Stands are a must...as you must have already guessed why I brought in the irrelevant "aesthetic" factor...ofcourse wifey..

heard the cayins with dynes 42/ 52 and thats what got me started a year and half back

theres a difference between an SET and a regular tube amp

i know of someone who runs dyns with a sugden so i know it works with low powered amps.. with SETS it is better to check once thats all !

Hi Steve,

You shouldn't have any problems with the Integre driving the Dynaudios. If the Dynaudios are a 4-ohm load, you'll just lose out on some power.

Because the valve amp is transformer coupled to the loudspeaker, it can drive even very low loads - it's just that its power delivery and response is not optimised for that load. So, you may not reach very loud levels, but you'll still get a sense of what the amp can do.

Don't try it, but the valve amp can sustain a short on its output without damage!

Viren.

The smallest stand mount Castle along with a DIY open baffle sub, simply outstanding.
Deaf.

Deaf's Dicksionary
MULTI TRACKING:Musical mastrubation.