Replacing Stock Jumpers on NAD/Marantz

My jumpers are made from D102MKIII and had made an improvement in the highs and lows(more on the highs)on my NAD.

Some people hear no difference.

Manek.

Voodoo_CHild schrieb:

Hi guys, Sometime ago, I came across info related to replacing the stock jumpers (pre out-to-main in) on NAD/Marantz Integrated amps. Remembered today and googled further to find some options: Tara Labs Missing Link Jumper Cables...cool name

well, I have these TARA Labs jumpers used in my Harmon-Kardon AV reveiver. I prefer them to the stock jumper plug that came with the AV receiver. the improvement is worth the piddly money I spent on them.

I had a Nad around 4 years back I had put in regular .6M Tara labs ICs. not sure if it made a difference or not..but i sure as hell felt better than having those nasty "non audiophile" steel jumpers

Improves the entire audio spectrum in my experience. Murthy makes them in Bangalore. I used them when I was using the c350. You can order them from Prithvi. Cost about 500 - 700 rupees. Alternatively you can waste money by buying branded ones too.
Incidentally a Hyper nit-picker audiophile friend of mine just replaced the Nordost Red dawn interconnect with Murthy’s interconnect. The Red dawns are for sale now
Anyone wants them can PM me.

square_wave schrieb:

Improves the entire audio spectrum in my experience. Murthy makes them in Bangalore. I used them when I was using the c350. You can order them from Prithvi. Cost about 500 - 700 rupees. Alternatively you can waste money by buying branded ones too. Incidentally a Hyper nit-picker audiophile friend of mine just replaced the Nordost Red dawn interconnect with Murthy’s interconnect. The Red dawns are for sale nowimages/smilies/insane.gif Anyone wants them can PM me.

I dunno...
i tried two pairs of murthy's jumpers and couldn't hear no difference.
Prithvi did give me two weeks with them.

Give it a try to be sure though.
If i didn't hear a difference doesn't mean that you won't.

Saachi

I have Murthy's jumpers on my 320...I feel that they have smoothened overall the spectrum a bit.

With the stock jumpers the sound was a bit harsh...though the amp was very new when I heard it with them...must compare them again...

Hmm...varied responses

Manek schrieb:

My jumpers are made from D102MKIII and had made an improvement in the highs and lows(more on the highs)on my NAD.

Manek,
Have you come across any other which makes an improvement predominantly on the lows...something like more bass extension?

Arj schrieb:

I had a Nad around 4 years back I had put in regular .6M Tara labs ICs. not sure if it made a difference or not..but i sure as hell felt better than having those nasty "non audiophile" steel jumpers :)

Arj,
It looks like a brass jumper on the back of my NAD C325BEE...anyway kinda nice when you feel better rather hearing any better

square_wave schrieb:

Incidentally a Hyper nit-picker audiophile friend of mine just replaced the Nordost Red dawn interconnect with Murthy’s interconnect.

square_wave,
that's interesting

soulforged schrieb:

I have Murthy's jumpers on my 320...I feel that they have smoothened overall the spectrum a bit. With the stock jumpers the sound was a bit harsh...though the amp was very new when I heard it with them...must compare them again...

soulforged,
I was also more interested to know if someone had gone back and compared them after some days/weeks and see how it sounded...maybe you can help

I think since the jumpers are very short and if you replace with a pair of short interconnects (which essentially are cables btw), maybe one cannot find the same level of difference as with a regular interconnect/speaker cables which are quite long.

Also why would NAD/Marantz put such jumpers if they are not as good as the replacements people find? The prices seem quite ok, one would definitely have an itch to try if its around 20-30$ and supposedly made a difference

soulforged, I was also more interested to know if someone had gone back and compared them after some days/weeks and see how it sounded...maybe you can help

Hmmm...maybe a comparison is due now...will do it as soon as I can...

better still...do u wanna come over and do it urself? I'm out of the town this weekend...maybe we can fix it up for some other time...

jumpers are nothing but IC's...so best to use the Ic you connect your cdp with. No other rocket science involved.

Manek.

Well, yes... but the comparision is :

2 Inches of steel ( ? ) jumpers....

vs

2 yards of an exotic wire and a pair of connectors...
As they say the best interconnect is the shortest .... No interconnect at all ...

The jumper interconnect has to be as short as possible to be effective.
Now the economics.
Any amp which costs around 20k would probably have some 5k worth of components in them (total cost of manufacturing). Rest is all overheads and margins / profit etc….At this level, even adding a 300 rupee worth high quality interconnect with the amp will raise the final price of the amp quite a bit. If the 5K worth amp is sold at 20k, then a 5300 rupee worth amp will cannot be sold at 20300. It may need to be sold at 21k plus which is not easy because pricing and competition at this level is very fierce. That is why amps like 320bee are good candidates for modding. They are very well engineered. But they can do wonders with better parts and tweaks like replacing the steel jumpers.

Why don't you just open the amp..and solder the connections with a good quality wire...

Why use any external connections ??

This can always be undone...at a later stage, if required.

Regards
Siva.

sivat schrieb:

Why don't you just open the amp..and solder the connections with a good quality wire... Why use any external connections ?? This can always be undone...at a later stage, if required. Regards Siva.

simple and effective..thats is some very sane advice . should be easy to do as well..only potential problem if you were not in India would have been be warranty getting void..but here it does not matter as you dont get warranty anyway !

soulforged schrieb:

soulforged, I was also more interested to know if someone had gone back and compared them after some days/weeks and see how it sounded...maybe you can help Hmmm...maybe a comparison is due now...will do it as soon as I can... better still...do u wanna come over and do it urself? I'm out of the town this weekend...maybe we can fix it up for some other time...

sure...will let you know soon
me too was busy for a few weekends now...add to that the scorching summer we had in bangalore
a couple of other invites are still pending for quite some time..looks like the weather has turned around for good since yesterday..reminds me of my college days

square_wave schrieb:

The jumper interconnect has to be as short as possible to be effective. Now the economics. Any amp which costs around 20k would probably have some 5k worth of components in them (total cost of manufacturing). Rest is all overheads and margins / profit etc….At this level, even adding a 300 rupee worth high quality interconnect with the amp will raise the final price of the amp quite a bit. If the 5K worth amp is sold at 20k, then a 5300 rupee worth amp will cannot be sold at 20300. It may need to be sold at 21k plus which is not easy because pricing and competition at this level is very fierce. That is why amps like 320bee are good candidates for modding. They are very well engineered. But they can do wonders with better parts and tweaks like replacing the steel jumpers.

was beginning to think on the same lines...as far as how much wonders these make...should see(hear)

sivat schrieb:

Why don't you just open the amp..and solder the connections with a good quality wire...

any good quality wire you recommend Siva? just curious to know...

thanks!

Voodoo_CHild schrieb:

sivat schrieb: Why don't you just open the amp..and solder the connections with a good quality wire... any good quality wire you recommend Siva? just curious to know... thanks!

You might want to ask Mr.Murthy....

Alternatively, you can also buy a small length of QED interconnect wire from ProFx (not sure whether they sell unterminated interconnect wires)

Regards
Siva.

Hi guys, some interesting explanations put forward supporting replacement of jumpers, but IMHO best taken with a pinch of salt.

I find it implausible that any designer worth his salt would spend so many man hours on circuit design, selection of components, voicing of the amp/speakers etc, etc, to arrive at what he felt was perfection, and blow up all the good work by a cavalier selection of jumpers. There is hardly any rocket science involved as far as jumpers go, and if the designer understands his subject so well as to make a mark with his product, he would surely provide jumpers that were adequate for the purpose.

We have some designers/manufacturers on the forum, it would be interesting to get their take on this issue. Would they invest so much time and money in creating a product to have some Golden Ears replace a simple jumper worth just a couple of hundred Rupees to get ‘audible improvement across the spectrum’?

Maybe somebody like Viren can elaborate...

Hi,

Those jumpers have been placed there as a convenience, to be able to separate the preamp and power amp sections. I'm sure no great design effort was made, except to make sure they made contact.

If you want to eliminate the possible degradation of that contact, the best thing to do would be to take the existing wiring inside the amp, the solder the ends together. There are hundreds of soldered connections within the amp - one more will not amount to much!

Viren.

There will be a piece of wire from the Preamp out circuit board to the Rear panel connectors.

And another piece of wire from the Rear Panel connectors to the Power Amp Board.

A little extra thought, and you could minimise this wiring lenght too, and run the shortest cable from the pre to the power amp boards....

Indian_Duke schrieb:

Hi guys, some interesting explanations put forward supporting replacement of jumpers, but IMHO best taken with a pinch of salt. I find it implausible that any designer worth his salt would spend so many man hours on circuit design, selection of components, voicing of the amp/speakers etc, etc, to arrive at what he felt was perfection, and blow up all the good work by a cavalier selection of jumpers. There is hardly any rocket science involved as far as jumpers go, and if the designer understands his subject so well as to make a mark with his product, he would surely provide jumpers that were adequate for the purpose. We have some designers/manufacturers on the forum, it would be interesting to get their take on this issue. Would they invest so much time and money in creating a product to have some Golden Ears replace a simple jumper worth just a couple of hundred Rupees to get ‘audible improvement across the spectrum’? Maybe somebody like Viren can elaborate...

Hi Indian Duke,
I see the logic in what you discussed.
But the word “adequate” is the key word here. The jumper provided is adequate for the purpose. But it doesn’t mean that it cannot be improved upon. Best would be solder them as suggested by Viren and Siva. Everything else is a compromise. Any amp can be modded to any level by someone who knows how to do so. Replacing Jumpers and power cords is just the first step. These are not “price – no object” designs. They are all build to a price point dictated by the accounting dept of the brand. The designer needs to work within this constraint. When he does so, anything which won’t be audible by an average audiophile with “probable “partnering equipment for an amp at this price point will be discarded by the designer. Averages and equations and its relationship with the target consumer takes precedence over pure sonics when designing mass market audiophile electronics. It does not make economic or sonic sense for them to pursue such goals. Only “ price no object “ designs by brands and DIY projects pursue such lofty goals.

Thanks Siva, Viren, Amp_Nut and Indian_Duke for your inputs.

square_wave schrieb:

Replacing Jumpers and power cords is just the first step.

Sometime back back when I spoke to Murthy, I remember him saying that a decent power cord makes good improvement.

Later I had a first hand experience of power cord making a difference...it really does.

I checked my C325's power cord, its a Volex (forgot to note the model no.) branded power cord, but is not a detachable one. Did some search and found that Volex 17604 is highly regarded across many DIY forums for an entry level replacement and is quite cheap too.

square_wave, What's your take on this?

Also what's the most appropriate way of replacing a power cord which cannot be detached? I found different methods, would like some suggestions from the forum members.

square_wave schrieb:

Indian_Duke schrieb: Hi guys, some interesting explanations put forward supporting replacement of jumpers, but IMHO best taken with a pinch of salt. I find it implausible that any designer worth his salt would spend so many man hours on circuit design, selection of components, voicing of the amp/speakers etc, etc, to arrive at what he felt was perfection, and blow up all the good work by a cavalier selection of jumpers. There is hardly any rocket science involved as far as jumpers go, and if the designer understands his subject so well as to make a mark with his product, he would surely provide jumpers that were adequate for the purpose. We have some designers/manufacturers on the forum, it would be interesting to get their take on this issue. Would they invest so much time and money in creating a product to have some Golden Ears replace a simple jumper worth just a couple of hundred Rupees to get ‘audible improvement across the spectrum’? Maybe somebody like Viren can elaborate... Hi Indian Duke, I see the logic in what you discussed. But the word “adequate” is the key word here. The jumper provided is adequate for the purpose. But it doesn’t mean that it cannot be improved upon. Best would be solder them as suggested by Viren and Siva. Everything else is a compromise. Any amp can be modded to any level by someone who knows how to do so. Replacing Jumpers and power cords is just the first step. These are not “price – no object” designs. They are all build to a price point dictated by the accounting dept of the brand. The designer needs to work within this constraint. When he does so, anything which won’t be audible by an average audiophile with “probable “partnering equipment for an amp at this price point will be discarded by the designer. Averages and equations and its relationship with the target consumer takes precedence over pure sonics when designing mass market audiophile electronics. It does not make economic or sonic sense for them to pursue such goals. Only “ price no object “ designs by brands and DIY projects pursue such lofty goals.

Hi Sq wave,

Your explanation makes for interesting reading, but does not convince me.

First, let’s not harbour any confusion about modding and tweaking. Modding is a lot more serious work, undertaken by those who understand the topic well enough to go beyond what the designer has planned, by replacing vital components which play a substantial and tangible part in the quality of sound. Caps, Power supplies, etc, etc. Changing power cords and jumper bars would amount to plain tweaking. Tweaking is just trying out various trivial/external changes, without any planned degree of success. A tweak may or may not work; or it could produce just the opposite effect...

You may believe there is a marked improvement when you replace the jumper bars with a particular cable, but there are also others on the forum who haven’t heard any difference with the same cable. Hifi is entirely subjective. One normally ends up hearing only those attributes one allows himself to believe he is hearing. I am reminded of the legendary John Dunlavy’s exercise relating to speaker cables. Mr. Dunlavy, whose credentials are simply beyond reproach, used to invite golden eared critics over to a speaker cable comparision. He would show them a plain 12 gauge zip cord and some exotic cables, each fancier than the other. He would ask his assistants to stand behind the speakers and change the cables one by one and ask the critics for their observations. These critics would go into raptures after every change, describing in vivid detail the changes they felt they were hearing. All the time Mr. Dunlavy was laughing up his sleeve, because his assistants never changed any cable – they only acted like they were doing so.

There is plenty of snake oil in hifi. Needless to say, one needs to tread carefully!!!

Voodoo_CHild schrieb:

Thanks Siva, Viren, Amp_Nut and Indian_Duke for your inputs. square_wave schrieb: Replacing Jumpers and power cords is just the first step. Sometime back back when I spoke to Murthy, I remember him saying that a decent power cord makes good improvement. Later I had a first hand experience of power cord making a difference...it really does. I checked my C325's power cord, its a Volex (forgot to note the model no.) branded power cord, but is not a detachable one. Did some search and found that Volex 17604 is highly regarded across many DIY forums for an entry level replacement and is quite cheap too. square_wave, What's your take on this? Also what's the most appropriate way of replacing a power cord which cannot be detached? I found different methods, would like some suggestions from the forum members.

This may require extensive work like fixing a IEC Socket at the rear of the chassis and all that which will make any warranty void.

Indian_Duke schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Indian_Duke schrieb: Hi guys, some interesting explanations put forward supporting replacement of jumpers, but IMHO best taken with a pinch of salt. I find it implausible that any designer worth his salt would spend so many man hours on circuit design, selection of components, voicing of the amp/speakers etc, etc, to arrive at what he felt was perfection, and blow up all the good work by a cavalier selection of jumpers. There is hardly any rocket science involved as far as jumpers go, and if the designer understands his subject so well as to make a mark with his product, he would surely provide jumpers that were adequate for the purpose. We have some designers/manufacturers on the forum, it would be interesting to get their take on this issue. Would they invest so much time and money in creating a product to have some Golden Ears replace a simple jumper worth just a couple of hundred Rupees to get ‘audible improvement across the spectrum’? Maybe somebody like Viren can elaborate... Hi Indian Duke, I see the logic in what you discussed. But the word “adequate” is the key word here. The jumper provided is adequate for the purpose. But it doesn’t mean that it cannot be improved upon. Best would be solder them as suggested by Viren and Siva. Everything else is a compromise. Any amp can be modded to any level by someone who knows how to do so. Replacing Jumpers and power cords is just the first step. These are not “price – no object” designs. They are all build to a price point dictated by the accounting dept of the brand. The designer needs to work within this constraint. When he does so, anything which won’t be audible by an average audiophile with “probable “partnering equipment for an amp at this price point will be discarded by the designer. Averages and equations and its relationship with the target consumer takes precedence over pure sonics when designing mass market audiophile electronics. It does not make economic or sonic sense for them to pursue such goals. Only “ price no object “ designs by brands and DIY projects pursue such lofty goals. Hi Sq wave, Your explanation makes for interesting reading, but does not convince me. First, let’s not harbour any confusion about modding and tweaking. Modding is a lot more serious work, undertaken by those who understand the topic well enough to go beyond what the designer has planned, by replacing vital components which play a substantial and tangible part in the quality of sound. Caps, Power supplies, etc, etc. Changing power cords and jumper bars would amount to plain tweaking. Tweaking is just trying out various trivial/external changes, without any planned degree of success. A tweak may or may not work; or it could produce just the opposite effect... You may believe there is a marked improvement when you replace the jumper bars with a particular cable, but there are also others on the forum who haven’t heard any difference with the same cable. Hifi is entirely subjective. One normally ends up hearing only those attributes one allows himself to believe he is hearing. I am reminded of the legendary John Dunlavy’s exercise relating to speaker cables. Mr. Dunlavy, whose credentials are simply beyond reproach, used to invite golden eared critics over to a speaker cable comparision. He would show them a plain 12 gauge zip cord and some exotic cables, each fancier than the other. He would ask his assistants to stand behind the speakers and change the cables one by one and ask the critics for their observations. These critics would go into raptures after every change, describing in vivid detail the changes they felt they were hearing. All the time Mr. Dunlavy was laughing up his sleeve, because his assistants never changed any cable – they only acted like they were doing so. There is plenty of snake oil in hifi. Needless to say, one needs to tread carefully!!!

Hi Duke,
I don’t want to get into an argument with you I can make out differences between amps, cd players, interconnects, speaker cables etc….I agree it is very subjective. But for me, it is clear as night and day. Most of my friends can’t make out the difference between my cd player and dvd player only.
That is why I asked him to try it out. If it makes a difference for him, let him go ahead. Else he will save some money.
I agree with you that there is so much snake oil in audio.

NO connector can match a good solder joint....

Amp_Nut schrieb:

NO connector can match a good solder joint....

Reiterating

Cheers!

square_wave schrieb:

Voodoo_CHild schrieb: Thanks Siva, Viren, Amp_Nut and Indian_Duke for your inputs. square_wave schrieb: Replacing Jumpers and power cords is just the first step. Sometime back back when I spoke to Murthy, I remember him saying that a decent power cord makes good improvement. Later I had a first hand experience of power cord making a difference...it really does. I checked my C325's power cord, its a Volex (forgot to note the model no.) branded power cord, but is not a detachable one. Did some search and found that Volex 17604 is highly regarded across many DIY forums for an entry level replacement and is quite cheap too. square_wave, What's your take on this? Also what's the most appropriate way of replacing a power cord which cannot be detached? I found different methods, would like some suggestions from the forum members. This may require extensive work like fixing a IEC Socket at the rear of the chassis and all that which will make any warranty void.

If I don't care much about the warranty, then is there anywhere in Bangalore I can get this done sometime in future?

Voodoo_CHild schrieb:

Sometime back back when I spoke to Murthy, I remember him saying that a decent power cord makes good improvement. Later I had a first hand experience of power cord making a difference...it really does.

if you really think that power cords make a difference then you just might jump out of your skin when you fix your AC supply feeding your components AND use a decent power cord!!

Simply changing the power cord & feeding it grungy AC is only tackling half the issue.
Concentrate on fixing your AC 1st. Then tackle the fixed power cord on the back of your amp.
Your reward will be far greater.

Voodoo_CHild schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Voodoo_CHild schrieb: Thanks Siva, Viren, Amp_Nut and Indian_Duke for your inputs. square_wave schrieb: Replacing Jumpers and power cords is just the first step. Sometime back back when I spoke to Murthy, I remember him saying that a decent power cord makes good improvement. Later I had a first hand experience of power cord making a difference...it really does. I checked my C325's power cord, its a Volex (forgot to note the model no.) branded power cord, but is not a detachable one. Did some search and found that Volex 17604 is highly regarded across many DIY forums for an entry level replacement and is quite cheap too. square_wave, What's your take on this? Also what's the most appropriate way of replacing a power cord which cannot be detached? I found different methods, would like some suggestions from the forum members. This may require extensive work like fixing a IEC Socket at the rear of the chassis and all that which will make any warranty void. If I don't care much about the warranty, then is there anywhere in Bangalore I can get this done sometime in future?

PM or email Prithvi, he has has access to some of the best guys in Bangalore...

just to expand on what bombaywallah said....
I had a new dedicated line drawn up from my meter with good finolex cable with a dedicated MCB mains switch(krupp) and brass fittings for sockets. it worked for me.

Manek.