GamuT Audio Salon - Mumbai

I always disliked speakers that roll-ed of high frequency..and euphonic sounding equipment (like the Marantz CD players..which sounds euphonic even when used as a transport ).

My dislike is based on the fact that this comes in way of the Music i listen and NOT because i look for technical perfection.

If a system sounds DRY or LIFELESS, then it not a problem of "neutrality" (frequency response), but a problem of Harmonic distortion.

When u look at choice of audio systems through the sounds you hear from various commercially available brand, then I might have the same opinion as Arj does now. But then I DIY...and that gives a different perspective.

Let me explain..

The scanspeak drivers (kevlar) that i use in my speaker is probaly amoung the best drivers that is available anywhere. Though "paper" based version of this driver can be found in many speakers (costing over $20k USD), this particular driver is commerically not used in any speaker. There are two reasons..

1) COST : For many years, my speakers sounded neutral, but was dry and lifeless...until i installed exotic crossover component that costed me a fortune. It included a inductor made in Denmark with natural resin as insulating material .... kind of stuff u will never see in commercial speakers....more because of non-availability and cost than any other factor

2) COMMERCIAL WOES : Even after the "exotic" crossover in installed, the speaker will sound horrible in a "full" NAD ( sorry guys, we have to accept NAD is an entry level setup...no offense :)) setup, because it will bring out deficiency of the system to the fore-front. Any one making such commercial speaker is on a suicidal path. Roll off the highs...u also roll off the harshness caused by distortion...very simple solution, but is it good enough ?

What i mean to say is two things

1) If u need a equipment that sounds neutral and still sound musical...it is not going to be cheap. (My 845 power amp sounded a bit harsh and a bit phase in-coherent...the solution was to upgrade all 82 hi-voltage electrolytic caps to Panasonic, diodes to better ones include schottky for filament, etc., etc., ....which alone was a bill of over USD1400+Shipping+Duty from digikey... might give u an idea of what i mean by cost)

2) Even if a company creates makes one such "neutral" sounding product, it might sound bad unless the rest of the equipments in the chain are properly matched to it...

I can go on explaining a lot of other factors also...but i think this would give something to think about..

To summarize i will agree with what Arj and Bhagwan are saying....but u also have alternative approaches, that might give different perspective and results.

Hi siva

I heard your speakers two year ago and loved them. Were they with out without the resin inductor ?

Manek

No Manek, it was not installed when u were here in Bangalore. I was using the copper foil inductors from Madisound @ that time.

so now I got to make that trip to bangalore !

manek.

Manek schrieb:

so now I got to make that trip to bangalore ! manek.

You definitely should
I heard the new setup a few days back. I agree with siva that there was a bit of harshness along with tremendous detail in his earlier setup.
Now that harshness is gone. Tremendous musical detail without even a hint of harshness.
Musicians are in the room playing for you. That is all I can say.

square_wave schrieb:

Manek schrieb: Musicians are in the room playing for you. That is all I can say. :D

Mighty Impressive - I guess, I too shall drop by for a listen !

All are most welcome to listen ...

Square_Wave's feedback make me blush (my cheeks are red!!). He has similar taste like mine ... there were many others who did not like the sound, but thier feedback was useful in improving the overall sound.

Siva you said

Lifeless systems are due to harmonic distortion....

Could you please explain that as well ?

Manek

Very Simple. Harmonic Distortion signifies that the output signals (waveform) is not exactly the same as the input signals. This will affect the sound naturally. This is however assuming the amp is truly neutral.

In many systems, the amplifier (all though claimed to provide neutral response)..might not really exhibit neutral behavior due to various other factors...including its non-ability to handle the speaker's load across the spectrum, impedance mismatch with source, cables, etc., Further the amp might add its own color to the sound (Inter modulation). A combination of all these factors will in certainly result in much larger distortion than just what the amplifier measures in a lab.

Solution to all these problem is not trial-and-error with different combination of products - but a proper investigation of the actual problem. For example, many say that "my amp sounds harsh in my setup so i'm going to buy a speaker that rolls off the highs".

You can easily judge a setup's performance. But judging the performance of a particular component does require a little more investigation......

Hear(pun)is my take. Electronics need to be neutral enough to have as minimal a signature as possible, because it is technologically possible to come closer to straight line with gain in electronics rather than loudspeakers. Now if you want to get any particular balance of sound, it is easier to get the loudspeaker and the room balance for your taste, provided the two are logically matched. This gets easier with neutral electronics which leave very little of their own signature.
I used to distribute Gamut and love the electronics. Of all the audiophile brands it is the only one with a monitoring background, still used in the finest monitoring system, a true test of its neutrality status.
Regards Deaf.

deaf schrieb:

I used to distribute Gamut and love the electronics. Of all the audiophile brands it is the only one with a monitoring background, still used in the finest monitoring system, a true test of its neutrality status.

Bryston ?

B&W boasts - Abby Studios in London....

Amp_Nut schrieb:

B&W boasts - Abby Studios in London.... ;)

Speakers - There are many.

I think what 'deaf' was referring to here was with regards to amplification.

Although Electrocompaniet & Chord have been used in the studio you spoke about.

Whatever little of Chord I've heard is far from neutral!

I kinda agree with Deaf here.
I feel it is the room and the speaker which contribute mostly to a particular taste in sound. Decent amp / cd player in a good room with a speaker of your taste will give you more of what you want than some great amp and cd player playing through some random great speaker in some room.

I am in an agreable mood today, so i agree with everyone !

Yes, I agree completely with Deaf's statement.

Yes bhagwan69, I guess Deaf was referring to Neutral Electronics... Not other components in the Hi Fi chain.

Yes, Shahrukh, Neither do I find B&W's 802D neutral..

But on the issue of 'Neutral' ...... I have seen many audiophiles referring to Bland, Un-exiting, dry and un-involving stuff as Neutral.

IMHO, such stuff is better described as "Neutered"

No, I am Not going to 'spoil the air' by naming any brand. Just wanted to mention this perspective, as food-for-thought.....

P.S; I dont find live music "Bland, Un-exiting, dry and un-involving"

When I listen to Live music, The treble has Zing... the Cymbals sizzle, when struck on the edge with a wire brush - The Sax has a piercing Rasp at times, the voice is dynamic, and has emotion and the Bass from a a big Drum hits me in the chest...... THAT to me is "Neutral" in the best way...

Hence the word "Neutral" should be used where equipment tends to approach the Holy Grail of Hi Fi ... as close as possible to the 'Live Performance'

Bryston is used with PMC and a few other brands so is Chord. All the others are just time pass trail and error shots. Please note that we are talking electronics, not just power amps. The Gamut preamp C2R is a line stage from a custom Calrec console and the entire signal path is based on studio electronics including the cable supplied.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I am in an agreable mood today, so i agree with everyone ! Yes, I agree completely with Deaf's statement. Yes bhagwan69, I guess Deaf was referring to Neutral Electronics... Not other components in the Hi Fi chain. Yes, Shahrukh, Neither do I find B&W's 802D neutral.. But on the issue of 'Neutral' ...... I have seen many audiophiles referring to Bland, Un-exiting, dry and un-involving stuff as Neutral. IMHO, such stuff is better described as "Neutered" :D No, I am Not going to 'spoil the air' by naming any brand. Just wanted to mention this perspective, as food-for-thought..... :Y

Well said.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

IMHO, such stuff is better described as "Neutered"

That is one of the best descriptions I have heard in a long time on this forum....

Amp_Nut schrieb:

P.S; I dont find live music "Bland, Un-exiting, dry and un-involving" When I listen to Live music, The treble has Zing... the Cymbals sizzle, when struck on the edge with a wire brush - The Sax has a piercing Rasp at times, the voice is dynamic, and has emotion and the Bass from a a big Drum hits me in the chest...... THAT to me is "Neutral" in the best way... Hence the word "Neutral" should be used where equipment tends to approach the Holy Grail of Hi Fi ... as close as possible to the 'Live Performance'

Here is another way for vested interest audiophiles to look at this description.
The tweeter is too bright and hard, the midrange is too forward exposed and the bass is too much or sometimes woofy.

The fact remains, neutral means the sonic finger print of the electronics is minimised to marginal levels, allowing one to enjoy music over extended listening periods and not blowing you away with audiophile pyrotechnics. Live is indeed the holy grail and no system I have come across except one approachs this. The designer by his very admission told me he is approaching 10% of Live via that system.

deaf said:

Here is another way for vested interest audiophiles to look at this description. The tweeter is too bright and hard, the midrange is too forward exposed and the bass is too much or sometimes woofy.

Sir, when I said :

The treble has Zing... the Cymbals sizzle, when struck on the edge with a wire brush - The Sax has a piercing Rasp at times, the voice is dynamic, and has emotion and the Bass from a a big Drum hits me in the chest...... THAT to me is "Neutral" in the best way...

I was refering to LIVE Music not the sound of a tweeter being too hard or the bass too 'woofy.'

Incidentally THAT IS Exactly what I want to highlight.... that sometimes 'seasoned' / 'mature' audiophiles write off a system because the treble sometimes sizzles ... but in real life TREBLE DOES sometimes Sizzle . It in the system, treble does NOT sizzle, then its what I would prefer to call a NUTERED not Neutral system !

The Gamut preamp C2R is a line stage from a custom Calrec console and the entire signal path is based on studio electronics including the cable supplied.

This is NOT a slant at Gamut or ANY other specific brand. While logic would suggest that if electronics is good enough for the mastering studio, it should be ATLEAST Great for an audiophile's home.

In practice, this argument has not always held water.

For decades, Studios have shunned the use of 'audiophile' interconnects, power cords and speaker cables. ( A few notable exceptions ARE there.... ).

Most Studio consoles such as Neve EXTENSIVELY use the 5534 Op Amp. Most signals will probably cascade thru half a dozen 5534s before they are finalised.

But the 5534 op amp is " Phoo - Phoo " by audiophile standards...

Dear Ampnut,
Firstly let me apologise as I was not referring to what you said as a hit towards you. I was basically saying how some audiophiles would interpret what you described. The high frequency sizzle of a cymbal that you describe can not be produced by most home audio systems. A hard struck cymbal set has a 120db output between 30-40 kHz, which we can percieve, and surprisingly even most so called super tweeters cannot reproduce at that SPL. Now here is the catch, most home systems that try to reproduce this go for a toss, as the high frequency units can never fully reproduce this effect via a 1" dome and most horn loaded systems always sound coloured. Cymbals also have considerable energy at 100Hz. Low frequency reproduction is always compromised because most normal rooms can never disappear and always add their signature anyways. So the ideal of Live, is still some distance away in domestic playback. I realise most pro electronics are compromised, that is why the console I mentioned was custom made. It was used in making some of the best sounding pop albums ever e.g George Micheals Faith which is till quite unmatched 15 years later.
Hence I say neutral electronics is that which calls no attention to itself during playback.
Once again I apologise as I hold you very high in regard to ever take a pot shot.
Regards
Deaf.

Hi Deaf,

Rest assured, I did not even THINK that you implied someting of a shot at me.

Very interesting info on the Cymbal frequency and spl content ! I keep learning ... Thanks for those inputs, will file them away somewhere in my mind.. hope I dont forget

I cant even sign off with a to you, since you dont touch the stuff

Amp_Nut schrieb:

P.S; I dont find live music "Bland, Un-exiting, dry and un-involving" When I listen to Live music, The treble has Zing... the Cymbals sizzle, when struck on the edge with a wire brush - The Sax has a piercing Rasp at times, the voice is dynamic, and has emotion and the Bass from a a big Drum hits me in the chest...... THAT to me is "Neutral" in the best way... Hence the word "Neutral" should be used where equipment tends to approach the Holy Grail of Hi Fi ... as close as possible to the 'Live Performance'

The sound that one hears in a room depends on a lot of factors. One of the main factors is the execution and synergy of components apart from the interaction with the room. And all these are far from absolute. A particular speaker or amplifier may sound steely or syrupy sweet depending on the synergy of the participating electronic components. It is all in the execution, the creativity and personal sensibility of the owners.


All well designed and recognized components are capable of astounding performance when setup correctly with carefully matched associated equipment. It is more an exercise of your vision and skill than the choice of component A or B.

Reviewers must always take these into account before making absolute statements about any particular electronic component. I have heard some stellar electronic components making “noise” in some wrongly matched / setup systems while making “ perfect music” in a correctly setup one.


The best systems I have heard are the ones whose owners have put their heart and soul to set it up correctly and made sure the participating components are synergistic. This is the main reason why I don’t believe in reviews by amateurs or professional. There are far too many variables, electronic as well as psychological.

I agree with Deaf that creating the actual live “bite” and sizzle” is beyond most home systems. But you can come close to creating a replica which can be quite entertaining.

All well designed and recognized components are capable of astounding performance when setup correctly with carefully matched associated equipment. It is more an exercise of your vision and skill than the choice of component A or B.

This is one ( the practical ? ) approach.... balancing multiple wrongs to make the overall something close to a right...

The other school of approach would be to have as many 'Neutral' components... so that they are out of the way, and then only 1 or 2 components ( the room could / nah - WILL - be one of them ) are singing in their own voices... and those 2 voices are in harmony...

As deaf was saying ... easiest to get the Aplification and the electronics neutral, and get speakers that 'sing' well in that room...

hurricane_hojo schrieb:

Amp_Nut schrieb: All well designed and recognized components are capable of astounding performance when setup correctly with carefully matched associated equipment. It is more an exercise of your vision and skill than the choice of component A or B.

Interesting Observation !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

All well designed and recognized components are capable of astounding performance when setup correctly with carefully matched associated equipment. It is more an exercise of your vision and skill than the choice of component A or B. This is one ( the practical ? ) approach.... balancing multiple wrongs to make the overall something close to a right... The other school of approach would be to have as many 'Neutral' components... so that they are out of the way, and then only 1 or 2 components ( the room could / nah - WILL - be one of them ) are singing in their own voices... and those 2 voices are in harmony... As deaf was saying ... easiest to get the Aplification and the electronics neutral, and get speakers that 'sing' well in that room...

Ampnut,

The presumption was not about balancing wrong components with cables and such.

I have noticed casual remarks about individual components sounding “bland”, “steely”, “liquid”, “musical” etc….While making such poetic remarks, most people do not take into account the rest of the components in the chain including room interactions.

For example, if you try and play a very revealing loudspeaker using neutral amplification with a high end source in a non-treated room, the sound could become quite harsh and fatiguing due to room loading. Play the same setup in a well treated room with some heavy sofas and drapes, they may sounded muted for some people. In such a good room, if you replace the hi-end source with a mid-level source, the nasties from the player will come through making it irritating.

It is all a matter of synergy.

I concur with you that speakers can affect the sound the most than any other component in the chain.

Want close to reality sound. Well here is the solution. build a 50,000 cubic feet room modestly treated and power it up with the most accurate 4 channels of PA stacks that you can buy. Preferable if the HF device is a high spl isoplanar of some sort. Believe me this a cheaper solution than some so called high end solutions. Only the real eatate will kill you, HEHEHEHEHE.

deaf schrieb:

Want close to reality sound. Well here is the solution. build a 50,000 cubic feet room modestly treated and power it up with the most accurate 4 channels of PA stacks that you can buy. Preferable if the HF device is a high spl isoplanar of some sort. Believe me this a cheaper solution than some so called high end solutions. Only the real eatate will kill you, HEHEHEHEHE.

That was good one.

deaf schrieb:

Only the real eatate will kill you !

Correct;

I have alwas said;
Real Estate
Software
Hardware

This is what audio is all about.
Most Expensive - Room
Next is software - CD's
Last is hardware - Audio Gear.

Hi,

Reality check.

The 50,000 cubic foot room is called a concert hall. Buy the cheapest tickets, and you have a lifetime's worth of real music - all within the cost of some high-end audio systems!

Viren

Viren,

Interesting....with the ncpa in full swing now catering to all kinds of music, that is not a bad idea. But with our work schedules it just may not be possible hence a system becomes convenient :-)

Jochen I must say has a lovely room to listen in and if one can come close to that, it would be lovely.


Manek

Manek schrieb:

Viren, Jochen I must say has a lovely room to listen in and if one can come close to that, it would be lovely. Manek

Agree. Jochen has a lovely room for audio. No parallel walls. High ceiling and the best part is that it is his living room. He does not have to sneak into a listening room to have a listen to his favorite music.
Some people are lucky.

Jochen I must say has a lovely room to listen in and if one can come close to that, it would be lovely.

Yes, it is amazing and the fact that such a big room doesnt echo (there are no heavy drapes, traps or furnitures) is puzzling .

Just had the chance to listen to the Phi3 today. Great speaker and I was really surprised how clean it sounds.