Are we moving towards a transport-less future ?

S_Q I agree with you... we are probably moving to disc-less delivery.

You guys know if any demo planned in Mumbai ? I would have LOVED to attend.

The HDD based playout has been acknowledged by all who have reviewed the stuff, but I do find it perplexing that Wireless data transmission sounds better than hard wired...

While Jitter from the CD Drive has been blamed for poor sound, others have pointed out inconsistencies due to HDD spindle wobble and grind, compounded by 7200 RPM speed...

The next level of Nirvana will be from Solid State Memory chips ?


Just today, Sony has declared that in the next 3 years, atleast 90% of all its products will be internet compatible.

SONY TVs will have internet access to directly receive (pay) programming from SONY's internet sites.... much like Internet Radio is today... only this will be Pay TV Content, and Video !

Will the Internet keep up with the Bandwidth demands ?

A pointer on the asking price of this LINN System ?

Amp_Nut schrieb:

A pointer on the asking price of this LINN System ? :.

Don't ask
PM Prithvi

Amp_Nut schrieb:

The HDD based playout has been acknowledged by all who have reviewed the stuff, but I do find it perplexing that Wireless data transmission sounds better than hard wired... While Jitter from the CD Drive has been blamed for poor sound, others have pointed out inconsistencies due to HDD spindle wobble and grind, compounded by 7200 RPM speed... The next level of Nirvana will be from Solid State Memory chips ?

Wired or wireless is immaterial. Its the same network protocol and it'll have inherent error correction. Plus I guess every such setup will have a large enough buffer to avoid having issues with network latency.

Hard drive based systems are mechanically way better than CD. Another point in their favour is that hard drives with file systems have error correction which normal Redbook CD does not.

The bottleneck in hard drive based sources is the output device for digital i.e. the sound card which is the SPDIF source. What I'm still uncertain about though is how is this Linn DS better than a Squeezebox+External DAC or a sound card + External DAC. In the latter case, one can even slave the DAC to the soundcard by using an external clock source. Atleast my EMU 0404 allows that.

Amp_Nut wrote: A pointer on the asking price of this LINN System ? Don't ask PM Prithvi

So embarrassingly high ?

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Amp_Nut wrote: A pointer on the asking price of this LINN System ? Don't ask PM Prithvi So embarrassingly high ? :D

Looks like Linn and dealers in India are working on an India pricing policy which could be close to prices abroad.
Pm Prithvi for details.

The UK price for the same is ~ GBP 3500. Wonder how it compares to the 2000$ transporter.

Definitely the future.
if the source is HDD which gives Digital oputput to another unit which can clock/SPDIF out it into a high quality DAC, i believe the jitter could be lower.

From what little reading I could do , cd transports do have problems as the "read" is not in Bits but in "Words" ie group of bits and there is an error correction algorithm (Reed Solomon i believe) which is then transformed into I2S and then into SPDIF/ AES etc almost on the fly (Am i right here?)

HDD based have the advantage of them already been read (ideally by a good ripper like EAC) and converted to bits. i believe this is easier to convert into SPDIF as you are not dependent on a 'Slowish" reader like a cd lens mechanism but on a quicker HDD reader.

From what i could read about, Linn is priced for a Niche market hence so are its products...i am sure for an average low-Mid fi audiophile even SB3 with a dedicated music server + a quality DAC can give greater results. (an iMAc + SB3 + a 1TB HDD should be a lot less than GBP 3500)

am trying to procure a squeezebox.. will try to do a head-head once i get it :). my ealrier Airport express performed very good with the NAD as the source. but there is some loss of smoothness when compared swith my classe transport..i guess there is some jitter at work there !

Well I must say that the future is a memory player with no moving parts. But I have still to hear one which beats a top CD player. I must also add that I have heard some pretty serious hard drives including some superb German machines, only one really impressed me. They still have some way to go. Interestingly I need to see a hard drive based on linear power supplies.

if the source is HDD which gives Digital oputput to another unit which can clock/SPDIF out it into a high quality DAC, i believe the jitter could be lower.

On the side .... I am surprised ( actually appaled ) that the SPDIF (Sony Phillips Digital Interface) interface has gained so much populatity, and widespread deployment.

SPDIF multiplexes the data and clock lines for transmission. Great that it saves on the number of wires used, but sad that quality is the 1st victim.

I would parallel SPDIF to the Crappy, single cable 'Composite Video" compared to the 3 cable Component Video.

The i2S bus holds more promise for DAC, but because of its multi wire interface is oly used Internal to the same BOX....

The I2S uses multiple wires and keeps the clock and data signals discrete for significantly less jitter.

I was told the best connection was MADI using BNC connections.

Hey.... GBP 3600 is not Outlandish pricing at all !

I will PM Prithvi for details of what the package exactly includes and its external interfaces....

If any forum member has details, please post. Thanks

I too have heard that..but BNC is also SPDIF..its only that the connector is BNC instead of RCA ( Or was this NOT what you were trying to say !)

Arj schrieb:

I too have heard that..but BNC is also SPDIF..its only that the connector is BNC instead of RCA ( Or was this NOT what you were trying to say !)

Yup BNC is just a connector... you can replace a normal RCA with a BNC in any SPDIF source/receiver. You can do a word sync based upon an external world clock instead of accepting the SPDIF clock to avoid jitter. Many DACs/Soundcards allow this.

I don't think there are any DACs in the market that actually accept I2S. USB is there on very many but not I2S. USB again is a fairly bad interface with the default Windows/MAC driver. There are a few proprietary ones which are supposed to be better but then again never had a chance to use them personally.

Amp_Nut did you manage to get the Trends Audio UD-10 as you mentioned somewhere else about it?

Err not exactly the same thing. I guess there is an impedence issue in MADI which RCA cannot handle.

deaf schrieb:

Err not exactly the same thing. I guess there is an impedence issue in MADI which RCA cannot handle.

Isn't MADI a completely different interface compared to SPDIF? I was talking about BNC for SPDIF.

SPDIF and AES are flawed for digital is my point, hence BNC v/s RCA is meaningless in this context as SPDIF is crap.

deaf schrieb:

SPDIF and AES are flawed for digital is my point, hence BNC v/s RCA is meaningless in this context as SPDIF is crap.

Agreed to that but what choices does someone with a low-mid budget have other than SPDIF? I guess none :L.

Dear Reignofchaos,
My thought was, if we are going a new digital way, why stick to the bad aspects of the old ones. If progress is to be made then the industry has to get rid of age old problems on the onset.

I don't think there are any DACs in the market that actually accept I2S.

True... I2S needs multiple cables for the connection... hence not consumer friendly.

That is why SPDIF is used, which Multiplexes ( mixes into a Bhel Puri ) the the data and clock lines for transmission on a compact config of Cables...

I guess there is an impedence issue ..... which RCA cannot handle.

True... RCA does not have a well defined Characteristic Impedance.

On the other hand, BNC connectors are available in 50 ohm & 75 ohm versions.

Amp_Nut did you manage to get the Trends Audio UD-10 as you mentioned somewhere else about it?

Yes, I did that. Played around with it a bit. However I do not ( yet ? ) have a quality DAC and the built in one is only incidental....

Its found a new home between a MAC and a Theta Gen VIII DAC + Pre ( US $ 10K ), as a temporary solution.

Arj: Are you buying the SB3 in India? I bought an SB3 on ebay for US$ 215 couple of weeks ago, it's expected to reach home today. Shipping by USPS cost me US$35 plus Rs. 650 customs levied by Foreign Post Office.

I will be using the SB3 with my Odeon Lite DAC, switching over from my Creative X-fi.

square_wave schrieb:

Apparently the higher quality is attributed to the lack of errors by bypassing a transport (jitter and error) and the high quality DAC in the Akurate DS.

This is more of a marketing gimmick than a reality.

There is fundamentally a difference in the way the a typical "CD drive" retrieves data from the CD compared to a "CD ROM" setup in a Media server. While in the first case data comes in conjunction with the "clock", the media server will rely on something like SCSI/IDE interface for the same.

Both has its own advantages and disadvantages. A lot of factors such as Power Supply, PCB layouts, inter-connection, quality of the oscillator, etc., plays an important role in both cases. If the engineers do a proper design, they achieve good results in both cases.( Assuming we are only taking about media-server as a transport; If it is as a complete replacement for a CD player.... you must be joking )

But for now, i will stay with a more traditional "CD transport" than a media-server, because i believe more research has been done on the traditional arena and many solution are available too ...

[quote="Amp_Nut"]

[quote]
I don't think there are any DACs in the market that actually accept I2S.
[/quote]

True... I2S needs multiple cables for the connection... hence not consumer friendly.

[/quote]

I2S as per its own original design, is to be used only as a bus inside a equipment. It was NOT designed for transmission over cable to other equipments. The solution was converting it to a SPDIF which was designed to be transmitted over 75R co-ax cable.

So this is not a subject for discussion at all

Having said that, Zanden claim that they can transmit I2S over a cable using some proprietary technology (I have not read in detail about it).

[quote="sivat]
Having said that, Zanden claim that they can transmit I2S over a cable using some proprietary technology (I have not read in detail about it).[/quote]

could well be another form of multiplexing ?

[quote="Arj"][quote="sivat]
Having said that, Zanden claim that they can transmit I2S over a cable using some proprietary technology (I have not read in detail about it).[/quote]

could well be another form of multiplexing ?[/quote]

might as well use SPDIF in that case.

[quote="sivat"][quote="square_wave"]

If it is as a complete replacement for a CD player.... you must be joking[/i] )

. That is how much I agree with you.

sivat schrieb:

Assuming we are only taking about media-server as a transport; If it is as a complete replacement for a CD player.... you must be joking[/i] )

The asumption is only to replace the transport with the media server. Of course you need a DAC and some UI interface to access the files.

And the question is like this:
Is a media server / UI combination costing some 50k better than a similarly priced transport playing through the same DAC ?
When money is not an issue, you can of course buy the best transport and beat the media server / UI combo. I am talking commercially available products here.
With DIY I am sure the game is quite different Siva

Vinny,

You are forgetting the fact that Media Server still gets the data from the CD.

If you are okay with the difference between the original CD and a CD-R/CD-RW (copy using a computer or media server), then a media server will be good enough.

If not ... ... u get the idea


In future i'm hoping a day will dawn when loss-less computer files are generated directly from the studio master tapes and will be available for download through a cheap and high bandwidth network through online stores. (It will also be the day sony/philips will lose lot of revenue in licensing, shops like landmark will close thier CD section, etc.,).

And on that day, i will look forward to a music server !!

Siva.

sivat schrieb:

In future i'm hoping a day will dawn when loss-less computer files are generated directly from the studio master tapes and will be available for download through a cheap and high bandwidth network through online stores. .

It is already started by Linn , Chesky(HDtracks) and many others to follow , they offer Studio quality (24/96 coming soon) Hi Res downloads offering 3 resolution options Low - Mid - High Studio Master FLAC / WMA, CD Quality FLAC/ WMA , MP3.

All such music down loads are DRM free.

Prices varies accordingly ( USD .99 to 2.9 / track, USD 15 - 25 per album).

http://www.stereophile.com/news/032308hdtracks/

http://www.linnrecor...hoice-downloads.aspx

http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-downloads.aspx

http://www.hdtracks....age&pagename=aboutus

HDtracks offers liner notes (in a font size that people can actually read !!) and cover art in pdf format. These will come with the music file when one downloads a complete HDtracks album. These files can be opened with Adobe Acrobat.


Many artists have started ditching record lables and selling their music in these format directly to consumers.

CD shops won't shut down they still have DVDs , Bl8 Rays to sale.

sivat schrieb:

If you are okay with the difference between the original CD and a CD-R/CD-RW (copy using a computer or media server), then a media server will be good enough. Siva.

I don't think that this is a problem as you can copy the tracks from ACDs using EAC. Most of the times it is 100% error free, and if not then it says that the track was copied with some Errors. Then it can be reread using some tougher methods(called paranoid mode).

The argument given by the media server enthusiast / promoter is like this.

1. Budget transports / cd players have a tough time reading cds without errors. This is because they have to read the cds ‘REALTIME” while it is being played.

2. If you copy a cd using EAC, the EAC takes its sweet time reading (paranoid mode) and making sure the file copied is error free. Once it is copied to the HDD/Media server, the HDD does a better job at reading the file ‘REALTIME” while it is being played. Hence it is a better option if you cannot afford a fantastic transport.

Any thoughts ?

square_wave schrieb:

The argument given by the media server enthusiast / promoter is like this. 1. Budget transports / cd players have a tough time reading cds without errors. This is because they have to read the cds ‘REALTIME” while it is being played. 2. If you copy a cd using EAC, the EAC takes its sweet time reading (paranoid mode) and making sure the file copied is error free. Once it is copied to the HDD/Media server, the HDD does a better job at reading the file ‘REALTIME” while it is being played. Hence it is a better option if you cannot afford a fantastic transport. Any thoughts ?

This is very true... however the issue is elsewhere down the chain. First of all with the SPDIF source itself. My EMU card sounds worse than Abhi's Bluenote CD Player as a digital source. Not sure how it'd compare with this Linn Transport. I intend to get something better... potentially a Trends UD-10 or something similar. The issue probably is the noisy power supply inside the PC and mind you the PSU I use in my Media Center PC isn't cheap either.

I intend to get something better... potentially a Trends UD-10 or something similar.

Have used the UD-10.

My 2 cents ( actually 3 cents :

1. Its good as a USB to SPDIF converter.

2. The Built In DAC ... NOTHING to write home about.

3. Its performance is SIGNIFICANTLY better ( as USB to SPDIF) when used with NiCd Batteries..

Good buy as a USB to SPDIF... the DAC, forget it. You will need a good external DAC

square_wave schrieb:

The argument given by the media server enthusiast / promoter is like this. 1. Budget transports / cd players have a tough time reading cds without errors. This is because they have to read the cds ‘REALTIME” while it is being played. 2. If you copy a cd using EAC, the EAC takes its sweet time reading (paranoid mode) and making sure the file copied is error free. Once it is copied to the HDD/Media server, the HDD does a better job at reading the file ‘REALTIME” while it is being played. Hence it is a better option if you cannot afford a fantastic transport. Any thoughts ?

First, my point has been that Media-server cannot be a replacement for a well-made CD player. I was not talking about cheaper alternative.

Now to specific questions ..

1) Can i buy a expensive "audiophile" media-server, instead of a cheap cd player ?? - I think u are better of with a well made PC...which will provide u greater flexibility and better ROI.

2) EAC by no means can be an alternative to digital filters that are available in modern cd transport (Even cheaper ones). No "software" can be "the" solution for all the problem that plague audio reproduction. If EAC is so good, then can u make a copy of the original CD...which will not sonically vary from the original ??

I would stick to a regular transport, even if budget is a problem. On the convenience factor - i will stick to a PC.

square_wave schrieb:

1. Budget transports / cd players have a tough time reading cds without errors. This is because they have to read the cds ‘REALTIME” while it is being played.

This is pure exaggeration (Musical Fidelity style ) and a non-scientific statement. The concept of buffering and filtering are decades old & proven technology. Infact the media-server not only needs to buffer, but it also has to perform complex format conversion and hard-disk storage....which turns the table completely on the very same factor.

Further if this problem is real, then infact it will apply more to media-server than the regular CD player (Remember u still get ur regular music from CD).

sivat schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: The argument given by the media server enthusiast / promoter is like this. 1. Budget transports / cd players have a tough time reading cds without errors. This is because they have to read the cds ‘REALTIME” while it is being played. 2. If you copy a cd using EAC, the EAC takes its sweet time reading (paranoid mode) and making sure the file copied is error free. Once it is copied to the HDD/Media server, the HDD does a better job at reading the file ‘REALTIME” while it is being played. Hence it is a better option if you cannot afford a fantastic transport. Any thoughts ? First, my point has been that Media-server cannot be a replacement for a well-made CD player. I was not talking about cheaper alternative. Now to specific questions .. 1) Can i buy a expensive "audiophile" media-server, instead of a cheap cd player ?? - I think u are better of with a well made PC...which will provide u greater flexibility and better ROI. 2) EAC by no means can be an alternative to digital filters that are available in modern cd transport (Even cheaper ones). No "software" can be "the" solution for all the problem that plague audio reproduction. If EAC is so good, then can u make a copy of the original CD...which will not sonically vary from the original ?? I would stick to a regular transport, even if budget is a problem. On the convenience factor - i will stick to a PC. square_wave schrieb: 1. Budget transports / cd players have a tough time reading cds without errors. This is because they have to read the cds ‘REALTIME” while it is being played. This is pure exaggeration (Musical Fidelity style ) and a non-scientific statement. The concept of buffering and filtering are decades old & proven technology. Infact the media-server not only needs to buffer, but it also has to perform complex format conversion and hard-disk storage....which turns the table completely on the very same factor. Further if this problem is real, then infact it will apply more to media-server than the regular CD player (Remember u still get ur regular music from CD).

Interesting thoughts

Okay. That was a discussion on Media Server in general.

If you really take a look at the Linn, it is essentially a DAC that accepts digital stream over a Ethernet interface instead of SPDIF. The media server functions of recording & sorting music file seem to be left out to a external storage and a software running on an external computer.

http://stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/308linn/index1.html

Since the Linn essentially seem to be a DAC in traditional sense, with a small variation (that it accepts digital stream through a computer network) - would explain its better sound quality (over other typical media servers).

Also note that the Linn (costing $20k) is being compared with a Ayre CD player costing far less (on red-book related discussions) .... so what happens to the "jitter" theory ??

I look @ this range of Linn product as an equivalent of a hi-end "Universal Player"....which it originally was. This is however a clever marketing and product strategy.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I intend to get something better... potentially a Trends UD-10 or something similar. Have used the UD-10. My 2 cents ( actually 3 cents : 1. Its good as a USB to SPDIF converter. 2. The Built In DAC ... NOTHING to write home about. 3. Its performance is SIGNIFICANTLY better ( as USB to SPDIF) when used with NiCd Batteries.. Good buy as a USB to SPDIF... the DAC, forget it. You will need a good external DAC

I already have a fairly decent DAC. Its the soundcard as an SPDIF source i'm concerned about. I don't care about the dac on the UD-10 as I'm never gonna use it.

sivat schrieb:

it is essentially a DAC that accepts digital stream over a Ethernet interface instead of SPDIF

Does the ethernet interface help in anyway compared to the spdif ?

square_wave schrieb:

sivat schrieb: it is essentially a DAC that accepts digital stream over a Ethernet interface instead of SPDIF Does the ethernet interface help in anyway compared to the spdif ?

I do not think, i was very sucessful in explaining my thoughts in my earlier posts

The point is that it does not matter whether Eternet or SPDIF is better. The damage is already done even before we reach the stage when the data gets transmitted over Ethernet.....unless you are using FLAC derived from masters and downloaded from the internet(and not from a CD).

Technically speaking, yes Ethernet will be a better alternative to SPDIF. Is it practical ... it will be in a few years time. At the end of the day if you want to invest in a product that meets future requirement at a futuristic price(taking into consideration the inflation !! ) ... you can certainly invest in one.

sivat schrieb:

The point is that it does not matter whether Eternet or SPDIF is better. The damage is already done even before we reach the stage when the data gets transmitted over Ethernet.....unless you are using FLAC derived from masters and downloaded from the internet(and not from a CD).

I always assumed eac worked perfectly. Is it not so?

Sivat EAC is bitperfect. Infact if it detects bit errors, it gives a whole lot of error messages. If the CD you are ripping is in the online EAC database, there's a checksum it matches for every single track based upon the bits in the track and if there's a single bit error, the checksum fails and one is notified that the cd could not be scanned properly. If the CD is not in the database and EAC is unable to determine the accuracy of the data ripped, one can enable paranoid mode where a particular bit is scanned repeatedly to make sure there are no bit errors.

I'd suggest you try it once before writing it off the way you did. Data extraction from CDs is not a problem... the bigger problem is transmission of the data to the external DAC and clock synchronization.

The problem really is Jitter (Timing related) and not "bit perfection". Jitter is a problem in extraction as well (not just when the data is transmitted over SPDIF). If you do not believe me...

Read this article. http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/index.html.

and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter

I do not think "bit perfection" is really an issue with typical CD player...Hardware/DSP has evolved and matured to treat it as a non-issue. The advantage with EAC is that - the DSP is done in a "clock" independent fashion (compared to cheaper CD players only)...but that does not still all the problems

EAC attempts to fix the jitter issue, but it cannot fully do that unless supported by proper hardware.

Companies like Esoteric(Teac), JVC(Reimyo), Philips, 47 Labs (Pi-Tracer), etc., invested in improved mechanics (and continue to do so), knowing that CD ROMS are available in the market. It is not without a reason.

I think you've got some wrong ideas about EAC. It doesn't have anything to do with jitter. It'll simply keep reading the CD till it's satisfied of a bit perfect copy. If EAC is not satisfied, it'll give you a message saying so.
Some scratched CDs can take hours to rip. But once EAC says its bitperfect, then it is What you do to the wav/flac track after that (spdif / usb / analog out / etc) has nothing to do with eac

Ignorance is bliss...let's leave it that way

I rest my case

sivat schrieb:

Ignorance is bliss...let's leave it that way I rest my case :hail

Err jitter is an issue when a particular sample is read only once as is the case with realtime playback in cd players. when you are reading the same bit multiple times... where does the question of jitter arise? Jitter may cause the error once but if the same bit is read a dozen times, 11 out of 12 times it'll be correct :Y.

Otherwise there would be no deterministic way of recovering data from any kind of optical media. This is obviously not the case. If you think we are ignorant in this view, why don't you state the correct view? This will be for the benefit of everyone.

reignofchaos, Plz take some time to read my earliers posts and most importantly the two links that i have posted.

the choice is fully yours ... i do not think it can be more clearly explained that it been done already. Maybe i'm not a good teacher

The problem really is Jitter (Timing related) and not "bit perfection".

If i can understand it right, the clock/reading mechanism in a CDROM is not really Best in class and hence can introduce timing errors while reading a CD. these lossless files can be Bit perfect but not "Timing" perfect ?

very nice point. Although i do need to digest that more to understand it better.

in the end i do understand the Hardware conversions would be far better than software ... I am thinking in terms of a dedicated machine with a separate Hard Disk and a hgh quality CD-ROM..but now need a lot of rethinking on that one !

Arj schrieb:

The problem really is Jitter (Timing related) and not "bit perfection". If i can understand it right, the clock/reading mechanism in a CDROM is not really Best in class and hence can introduce timing errors while reading a CD. these lossless files can be Bit perfect but not "Timing" perfect ? very nice point. Although i do need to digest that more to understand it better. in the end i do understand the Hardware conversions would be far better than software ... I am thinking in terms of a dedicated machine with a separate Hard Disk and a hgh quality CD-ROM..but now need a lot of rethinking on that one !

Ah!. Finally some understands ... i've not been that very bad

On the second point though (Hardware conversion), what i meant was slightly different. Restricting our discussion to reading from CD's only (leaving aside MP3/FLAC authored directly from Masters), we need understand that Jitter is till a problem. The magnitude of the problem can be understood by reading the two articles that i've mentioned.

To minimize Jitter at the stage when the CD is being read by transport/cd-rom - we need to look beyond just a software based solution (Please note that the Jitter will caused at various stages of digital reproduction).

The "mechanics" of the transport and "electronics" also have been to fine-tuned to minimize the jitter error at the reading-stage. This is the reason why we have so many fancy and expensive transports, after-market clocks, after-market PSU, etc.,

In case of MP3/FLAC authored directly from masters, we eliminate this problem completely and we will not require all this fancy transports. In fact when the "online retailing of music" becomes a "practical" reality, it will also have an added advantage ... we no longer need to be a victim of the pathetic CD manufacturing techniques used in our country.

Regards
Siva.

Sivat, i did go thru both the articles, but they both refer to jitter as applicable during playback. So I'm still confused regarding your doubts about EAC.