DACs - Are they a worthy upgrade ?

I do not have any exposure to the DAC's that you have talked about, but since I have stopped the use of CD Players & play music off the HDD - for me DAC's are very very important.
I have always had more than 1 DAC in use.
None of my DACs are Tubed, but I have been satisfied with SS output stage.
Currently, I have by-passed the pre too;
I run my DAC straight to my Power Amplifier.
I control the volume from the DAC itself.


The web site quote :-

In this digital age, we know almost every kind music formats come in digital format: CD, MP3, AAC and etc. However, on the contrary, every type music “playback” devices are analog: speakers and headphones. Therefore, no matter how high your digital music file’s Bit-rate is, the audio device will have to convert it to analog audio signal before you can hear it. We call this process “Digital-to-analog Converter”, in short, “DAC”. But wait; isn’t DAC already included in the audio devices? Why do I need a standalone DAC? Answer is simple, standalone DAC offers the easiest and probably the cheapest way to upgrade your music listening experience.

Why? Because the “build-in” DAC in most audio devices are not good enough. Let’s take computer sound card for an example: the cost of the DAC in 99% sound card is less $1. For $1, how good can the digital to analog conversion be? Not to mention the “noisy” power supply in the computer, the signal interference, the “non-audio grade” components and etc. As the result, the audio output on computer is noisy, lack of clarity and not very transparent. Same thing happened to most of other audio devices: DVD player, Blu-ray player, network media player and laptops. We are all too focused on the “digital” specifications, and forgot the “digital-to-analog converting” part is as important as the digital part, and the DAC is the key element to the sound quality. A properly designed external DAC will greatly enhance your music listening experience, it is not an assumption, it is a fact.

http://www.mavaudio....ed-a-standalone-dac/

Whether the DAC is built inside the CD player, or used as a stand-alone kit....it is a very important part of the audio chain.

Whether you can run the DAC directly into a power amp, depends on the DAC's output stage and also the power amp's input stage.

A good preamp would always help...but then again there are power amps (like the one that Abhi has) that really would do well without a preamp.

neono schrieb:

Can DACs,'instantly tranform' the sound quality of a system ? Adding a DAC is often touted as an easy and simple upgrade to an audio system .of course , it depends on how much ,one can perceive. Ive been researching a bit on cheap DACs like the Zhaolo , Maverick audio tube magic , Beresford etc.. Does anybody has any experience with these? The Maverick audio Tube magic interested me. There are some good userreviews in net. Also ,'Tube pre-out' through a SS amp - Any merits , sound wise..? www.mavaudio.com/

Neono, whether it's the DAC or any other component in the music signal chain - they are all very important. Screw any one up & you can screw up the entire pleasure of listening to music. Now, some components have a more dramatic effect on the sound than others such as the source components - since they generate the music signal in the chain. If you generate a mediocre signal, you'll get mediocre end results at best.

So, that website is simply making matters too simple & maybe even misguiding the newbie audiophile. If you have a mediocre CDP/transport & connect a world-class DAC to it, do you honestly think that you'll have a world-class CD playback system?? Unlikely, no? The DAC would be (severely) limited by the CDP.

In a nutshell, if you read between the lines, what the website is telling you is that each component needs to be built correctly with attention to all details that matter for that component. The website claims that built-in DACs are compromised because the entire unit (in which the DAC is just 1 component) is manuf to a certain price point & suitable compromises are made. They want you to eliminate these compromises by buying a stand-alone DAC wherein, by having a 1 whole chassis onto itself, these compromises are eliminated.

This philosophy transcends the DAC - it's applicable to all components in the audio chain.

Re. the particular DAC flavours - pick your poison as each one has it's own sonic signature. Some you'll like, others you'll dislike. Also, your friends' opinions will differ from yours - that's audio for you!

i use a hard disk too..my laptop..What i wanted to know is
about the tube pre-out in the above mention DAC. Tube amplifiers are supposed to have a signature sound right..
Now if we feed this tube pre-out to a solid-state amp, will
it still sound tuby..

neono schrieb:

i use a hard disk too..my laptop..What i wanted to know is about the tube pre-out in the above mention DAC. Tube amplifiers are supposed to have a signature sound right..

not necessarily. There are plenty of tube preamps & power amps that sound wrong in many ways - too tubey, soft bass, rolled off highs, too syrupy, etc, etc.

neono schrieb:

Now if we feed this tube pre-out to a solid-state amp, will it still sound tuby.. :)

it could sound tubey in a good way OR it could sound tubey in a bad way (like some of the characteristics I wrote above). Only way to find out is to try it in your system OR start communicating with one or more of the owners (you said you read several user reviews) to get their honest opinions. The caveat is that you have to trust their word as they are basically unknown people to you.

If you end up trying this inexpensive DAC, do let us know how it worked out in your system. Thanks.

Thanks for the reply.

neono schrieb:

i use a hard disk too..my laptop..What i wanted to know is about the tube pre-out in the above mention DAC. Tube amplifiers are supposed to have a signature sound right.. Now if we feed this tube pre-out to a solid-state amp, will it still sound tuby.. :)

Adding on nto what B'Walla, Siva and Bhagwan have written

What you need is a Good Dac not a Tube DAC dont get hung up on the tech..YOu would need to worry more on how it sounds. Dacs will improve the sound if the DAC you are adding is better than the one you already have on your CDP..with the added complication of getting the right digital cable !

But if you do plan to use multiple digital sources then a DAC is the most practical.

If you are using your Laptop a a source, I believe you are looking at an USB Dac ?

What you need is a Good Dac not a Tube DAC dont get hung up on the tech..YOu would need to worry more on how it sounds. Dacs will improve the sound if the DAC you are adding is better than the one you already have on your CDP..with the added complication of getting the right digital cable !But if you do plan to use multiple digital sources then a DAC is the most practical. If you are using your Laptop a a source, I believe you are looking at an USB Dac

The above mentioned one is hybrid.The tube pre-out is in
addition to the normal out. ill be using the optical out.

Pardon my ignorance, but why would you not use an out from your laptop through usb into the DAC & then RCA - Analogue out to your pre / power or integrated amp ?
Please do shed some light, why 'optical' ?
Thanks,

Please do shed some light, why 'optical' ?

Im using a net-top as source. I stream via wi-fi to an Airport express ,using Airtunes. the Airport express has
a mini-toslink out., which i connect to an AVR.

The advantage with net-top is that , its portable . its just
like a large remote. i can control the music from where i am. its wireless.

With USB , the net-top remains near the amp/dac . not very
convenient .

neono schrieb:

Im using a net-top as source. I stream via wi-fi to an Airport express ,using Airtunes. the Airport express has a mini-toslink out., which i connect to an AVR.

That info would have helped in the beginning !

I would believe you are taking a risk, in case you have not heard this DAC before.

While the AE analogue output is not really great, it is not too bad either..not sure if the DAC above would really give your that much of a benefit unless it has a PLL circuit to re-clock (Jitter is pretty high in the AE).

Maybe you can think of the Scott Nixon dacs which are double the cost but much more VFM when it comes to Quality.

Arj schrieb:

neono schrieb: Im using a net-top as source. I stream via wi-fi to an Airport express ,using Airtunes. the Airport express has a mini-toslink out., which i connect to an AVR. That info would have helped in the beginning ! I would believe you are taking a risk, in case you have not heard this DAC before. While the AE analogue output is not really great, it is not too bad either..not sure if the DAC above would really give your that much of a benefit unless it has a PLL circuit to re-clock (Jitter is pretty high in the AE). Maybe you can think of the Scott Nixon dacs which are double the cost but much more VFM when it comes to Quality.

Agree w/ Arj: since the AE jitter is very high, IMHO you need a DAC-subsystem that can re-clock the signal i.e. either get a standalong re-clocker + DAC of your choice OR buy a DAC w/ an in-built re-clocker (like the Benchmark).
IMHO if you simply buy a standalone DAC & do not take care of reducing the jitter, your benefits are going to be modest at best.
Just FYI: Scott Nixon DACs are very good sounding (I say this an owner of one of his DACs). 2 things to note: Scott Nixon DACs are non-oversampling DACs - probably a different philosophy from the Maverick Audio DAC & two, they do not re-clock the incoming digital data.

I would believe you are taking a risk, in case you have not heard this DAC before.

Auditioning DAC is impractical.. for me..

Need to depend on reviews , Its a risk , i know.

since the AE jitter is very high, IMHO you need a DAC-subsystem that can re-clock the signal

True ,Mav.audio cant handle jitter. But the Beresford DAC has got excellent reviews too.it oversamples & re-clocks.
and is good VFM i think.

http://www.beresford.me/products/TC-7510.html

The Beresform might just be a better choice since it has been reviewed more widely and you might get some users in India too for some first hand knowledge.

A reimyo DAC is on Sale. Possibly there will also be a Twistead pear Sabre DAC (I believe this is the second generation of the product)..might also shortly come on Sale.

Just FYI..incase you are intrested.

If intrested, please PM me and i will let you know the contact details of the respective owners.

Regards
Siva.

Siva Said :

Possibly there will also be a Twistead pear Sabre DAC (I believe this is the second generation of the product)..might also shortly come on Sale.

Siva, have you heard this ???

I would love to hear your opinion, or from anyone else whio had heard the product.

Incidentally, the Sabre DAC chip (probably? ) provides the best specs on the planet !

Sabre DAC defintely has its strength. It sounds far more detailed and stage seems much more well defined.

But overall I still prefer the wolfonson DAC.

Many (BLR) Folks on this forum also have heard the Sabre DAC vs Wolfonson and preferred the Wolfonson by a large margin.

Amp_Nut,

I would assume...it depends on your taste and preferences. Nothing like listening to it....wish you were in BLR....

You could fly down here. We will take care of everything including accomodation (you can stay @ my place).

Regards
Siva.

Hey ! That is DAMM generous and sweet an offer.....


Sadly just back from a 10 day vacation, so LOADS of work to catch up on..

Thanks again !

sivat schrieb:

Amp_Nut, I would assume...it depends on your taste and preferences. Nothing like listening to it....wish you were in BLR.... You could fly down here. We will take care of everything including accomodation (you can stay @ my place). Regards Siva.

Wait a min..Siva sir, you told me that you felt that the Sabre DAC sounded superior to your CDP which uses the Wolfson DACs?

ALso what is your opinion on buying a used Arcam CD192 or a used Shanling T100?

There is a lot of buzz on the net abou these 3 products, supposed to be giant killers.

Arcam rdac
Nuforce icon hdp
Musical fidelity m1

arcam seems to have licensed tech from dcs.


Most people who have bought them are raving bout them.

Anyone on the forum heard any of the above ? I believe rdac has just begun to ship. The m1 has been around for a few months and the nuforce been around for a year or more. All three are rated better than the dac magic.

hdd guys would surely be out to get their hands on these.

Regards

Manek

Manek schrieb:

There is a lot of buzz on the net abou these 3 products, supposed to be giant killers. Arcam rdac Nuforce icon hdp Musical fidelity m1 arcam seems to have licensed tech from dcs. Most people who have bought them are raving bout them. Anyone on the forum heard any of the above ? I believe rdac has just begun to ship. The m1 has been around for a few months and the nuforce been around for a year or more. All three are rated better than the dac magic. hdd guys would surely be out to get their hands on these. Regards Manek

Manek, DAC Magic is one of the worst implementation of DACs I have ever heard. I would any day prefer a Creative sound card to that DAC Magic. One of the most clinical and zippy digital is how I would describe its sound. Just an fyi. No point comparing other DACs to it.

Abhi you are not the only one with that sentiment, a lot of people out there share your view(maybe not as strong a view) and hence the question about the others.

Acam I think will do a good job of it.

Regards

Manek

Manek schrieb:

Abhi you are not the only one with that sentiment, a lot of people out there share your view(maybe not as strong a view) and hence the question about the others. Acam I think will do a good job of it. Regards Manek

Wait for a while. There is something on the anvil by someone I know.

Hello all....

(borrowed from TAS)
The 18 Greatest Bargains in High-End Audio (TAS 197)

7. Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC ($4995)
The Golden Ear and Product of the Year Award-winning Alpha DAC is not only one of the best-sounding digital-to-analog converters, it’s also an amazing bargain. In addition to world-class decoding of CD sources, the Alpha DAC can handle any sampling rate to 192kHz and word lengths to 24 bit. Its robust analog output stage and variable output level allow it to drive a power amplifier directly. This feature is significant, because the Alpha DAC is capable of such resolution, timbral purity, and dynamics you’ll want to hear it without the limitations of a preamp in the signal path. When used at its best—fed by true high-res sources from a music server, and driving an amplifier directly—the Alpha DAC delivers stunning resolution of the finest musical detail, throws a spectacularly large and well-defined soundstage, and plays back music with gorgeous tone color and purity. A reference-quality product at a moderate price. (Reviewed in TAS 189)

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:

Hello all.... (borrowed from TAS) The 18 Greatest Bargains in High-End Audio (TAS 197) 7. Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC ($4995) The Golden Ear and Product of the Year Award-winning Alpha DAC is not only one of the best-sounding digital-to-analog converters, it’s also an amazing bargain. In addition to world-class decoding of CD sources, the Alpha DAC can handle any sampling rate to 192kHz and word lengths to 24 bit. Its robust analog output stage and variable output level allow it to drive a power amplifier directly. This feature is significant, because the Alpha DAC is capable of such resolution, timbral purity, and dynamics you’ll want to hear it without the limitations of a preamp in the signal path. When used at its best—fed by true high-res sources from a music server, and driving an amplifier directly—the Alpha DAC delivers stunning resolution of the finest musical detail, throws a spectacularly large and well-defined soundstage, and plays back music with gorgeous tone color and purity. A reference-quality product at a moderate price. (Reviewed in TAS 189)

I simply love the way TAS uses the word "bargains" re. audio equipment!

Hi 'heard' the BAD [Berkley Audio Design] & did not care for it much.
My DAD was miles ahead.
DAD = Digital Audio Denmark.

just my 2 cents...