Plinius+Harbeths+Eichmann

direct dealing with the principals with an official go-between is probably the way to go.

I really dont know if the CST and other taxes can be avoided....whats the legal angle here ?

manek.

Hi! Junia,
Welcome aboard! Great to have you on the forum.
Rgds

Prithvi

I agree with Manek.

The framework in India is pretty challenging.

What you are suggesting sounds simple, but this be operationalised here ?

looks like a cool idea...:))

I have some experience in International trade to/from India, so here's my two paise/cents/pennies worth.

The biggest problem will be that the individual buyer will get #$%%#$ from all sides.

The seller will keep his side of the deal, and ship, no problems on that front. The goods now legally belong to the buyer. The buyer will now be vulnerable to all kinds of blackmail from dealer, Customs House Agent, as well as the Customs Goons themselves. I've heard of cases where the goods were deliberately damaged to settle scores.

Arbitary valuations for Customs/octroi duties, total unaccountability of all staff, pvt. or Govt., Insurance claims??....God Forbid!...etc. etc.

Not for the weak hearted. I wouldn't want to put myself in such a position. Literally, between, a rock and a hard place.

My firm belief is that those with very large accumulated negative karma from countless previous births are trapped in this scenario!!!



Roshan.

tks roshan.....food for thought!

What if the Distributor underwrites in writing individually through the dealer to commit to a maximum Custom Duty, Warranty & the product coming in a mint condition within a specified time frame.

Why not take advantage of the liberalization of the economy by remittance of foreign exchange by individuals ?

I have an Indian audiophile who is saving over 2 lakhs on a 7 lakh amplifier...that is almost 30%. I guess only when the consumers themselves see the whole operation working will a certain level of confidence creep in

The attempt is to have hi-end gear at affordable prices & thus widening the audiophile Indian community...............

Hi jsa_ind
The Idea sounds very interesting..

it definitely would be better than the current option of either an internet procurement Or requests to friends/Family

Looking forward to some more info on the operating mechanism of this process to comment further ! the very important factors would remain the issue raised by Roshan as well as the costs involved .
regarding warranty anything would be more than the existing options..hence welcome !!

Finally, we have to be on the right side of the law with reference to import laws, customs, central taxes, taxes etc, and the procedure has to be simple and foolproof....otherwise people in this country have a tough time.

Libralization of the country does not mean liberation from painfull beaurocratic procedures, paperwork and red tape for the common man. Its only for the big corporates.

I wish it were that easy to just place orders with principals and get deliveries, hassle free.

Do remember paying in foreign exchange often triggers the revenue service sleuths and that is certianly not what we want. Customs problems are bad enough

Manek.

Here is what we Importer/Distributors need to achieve to serve the Indian Audiophile community better:

A customer evaluates what he wants in a demo room...........which means the Distributor needs to invest in equipment in a real world set up....not a porky joint which has a zillion equipment scattered around and is his workplace & demo place. No matter where it is, a true audiophile will always wish to hear things first before he makes an investment...........

He places an order either through the distributor or through the dealer.......if the sale is direct, the customer will get a portion of the monies set aside for the Dealer. But in all cases the Dealer is covered.

The Distributor underwrites the whole deal in warranty, after sales service etc.......& holds hands with the customer till the very end.

Is it legal ? Off course it is....you want a product, you have imported the gear and paid the duties so everything is above board. How hassle free it is not not....that is for the customer to pass the verdict....however, it shouldn't prevent us from experimenting with the concept.

My question is why pay 30 to 40 % more when you can get it at a lower price ? Why cannot we take advantage of the lower Export price the Manufactures are offering to get audiophile equipment into the country ? As a consumer in the US & India I am appalled at the poor service the customer in India gets, that too after paying so much money. Isn't it about time that the customer gets his rightful recognition ?

All said and done I really appreciate the candidness & sincerity in this forum....

jsa_ind,

What I'm not clear here is that does the common man in India have the right to import any kind of goods he wants ?
I think there is still something called as am import license. Dont know if it is still mandatory to get one to import goods !

Manek.

Dear Manek,

Yes you do require an import license which can be easily provided as Intech exports over 100 crores a year.

The focus is to serve the customer better in a hassle free environment.

Regards,

Junia.

For all those you have been sending private e-mails, we will get in touch as soon as everything is in place......there is much to do before that

Hey Junia,

You seem to want to bite the bullet.

Here's how I have seen the system work. Players involved are:

Manufacturer
Local Indender
CHA
Transporter.
Buyer

A buyer books the product with the Indender who collects money (Forex Pay order in the name of the manufacturer) and places an order with the Mfg..

Mfg. ships the product to buyer in his name and address and the indender coordinates CHA and local transporter, who in turn are directly paid by the buyer, actuals, upon delivery.

Nowaday's UPS/TNT also have logistics arms that do ths, door to door, and quicker too. The only problem I have seen is that Customs evaluations are arbitary and you end up with no recourse but to pay.

What your'e saving here is only Sales tax @ 15-16% on (CIF + Customs + Octroi). Could finally add up to 20-25% of final cost. For sales tax benifit buyer has to buy direct from foreign co. or have a high seas sale agreement with indender. If and when VAT is implemented how the system work's I do not know.

Now a days, importing is not an issue nor is Forex. Banks will freely issue forex now, within certain parameters.

High value buyers might want to keep their tax papers in order!

Roshan.

Dear Roshan,

Come on Roshan, you are making it seem that listening music off quality gear is a SIN and has to be treated with extreme caution !

Importing is not as bad as you think it is. Intech has already been doing this for quite some time & it works....however it is not for me to blow my own trumpet, but rather have others champion this cause...or should I say right ??!

Firstly, more & more foreign companies see India as a gold mine in the long run & are willing to invest considerable monies in this market. Not only in eventual sales in INDIA but by setting up manufacturing bases.

It is not my business to talk about other companies policies, but certainly I can speak for Harbeth, Plinius & Eichmann all want to come in establish bases in INDIA and use the Indian base as a spring board for export.

Secondly, for those of you who think that Indian quality is not good enough.......one were to only be a fly on the wall & hear what the outside world speaks about Cadence, Rethm, Peerless ..etc..in the audio exhibitions. You would find that the whole world's concept about INDIA is changing. It warms the cockles of your heart to see what the world thinks about INDIA now........

I believe we can satisfy the Indian audiophiles initially with quality products at a reasonable price & than support them with a excellent after sales & warranty...exchange perhaps ??....programs as these companies set up their manufacturing bases in India. As to exchange programs that is another can of worms I would like to open up in due course.................

I hope these actions, spurs other companies to come into INDIA, thus widening the choices of the Indian Audiophiles.

We don't need to be at the mercy of anyone anymore...rather we need to sit back & enjoys the fruits what we have strived so hard to get ! It is about time the Indian Audiophiles stop taking all the high handedness & rubbish that has been dished out to them for so long...........

As usual thanks Roshan for all your inputs.

Best regards,

Junia

P.S. Folks please continue to poke as many holes as you can with these discussions. We much rather mend the chinks in the amour in virtual reality than make the investments & than attempt to make amends !

Hey Junia,

Let me clarify my views,

Any indulgence or even over-indulgence is not a sin, so long as it does not encroach on some one elses rights or property.

Importing is easy, anybody can do it.

Yes, foreign Co.'s are interested in the Indian Market.

Yes, many foreign Co.'s want to use India as a mfg. & service base.

Indian quality is as good as any.

The point I was emphasising was that the business enviroment here is not so great, too many unscruplous people, in every field and walk-of-life. We have an environment that encourages cheat's and penalises honesty.

My point is -BUYER BEWARE- take ample precautions. The bigger your purchase, the more careful you need to be.

Audiophiles, also have to live, work and transact in the same environment.


Roshan.

When the WTO agreement comes into force, I believe electronics will have no customs levies and imports would be easier so would it be better to wait for the WTO to hit and then buy from local delaers in local currency ?

manek.

Manek,
For the WTO to fully take effect we will have to wait till 2007-9. How I wish we were like the UAE, just 5% import duty. No sales tax at all.

A trader just pays a lumpsum amount as trader fees every year based on his turnover. Period.

No entry tax, special entry tax, octroi, sales tax, cess, educational cess, tunover tax, etc.A lot of my customers have started ordering directly from the manufacturers and its shipped directly to the customer by UPS/FEDEX and he pays the freight and import duty. A client just imported a REL sub and it came in 4 days and he paid the duty on the spot. No hassels of going to the airport and to deal with the customs etc. (door to door delivery). This is the way to go.

Rgds

Prithvi

hmmm...more food for thought !

manek.

Prithvi,
If anything is ordered,directly from the manufacturers(outside India,of course),at what stage I need to pay the customs duty and how much,and where? Of course,we need to pay for the shipping cost,but Iam not clear at what point the customs duty,is paid,and on which price(declared value?)
And does it make sense,to buy directly(door to door)?Both from the warranty and cost perspective?
Thanks.

Hi All,

Prithvi is right.

Many people do this now.

The only problem here is that the Courier pays duty based on the manifest they put to Customs and the documents on hand. Your part will be one amonngst many on the list and the courier pays the amount the customs put's against the product. You only know the amount when the courier comes knocking.

If the valuation is not correct, you have no choice but to pay. But the chances of an incorrect valuation is not high becaues the manufacturer will have the correct documentation attached to the packet.

In the present scenario, the best route for high value cargo.

Roshan.

Hi! Roshan

This time ur right too. This is a warning to all of you out there. PLS dont use DHL at all. I have had major problems with them for nearly 14 consignments.

Looks like they have a tie-up with the customs and are hand-in-glove with them. Have had horrible experiences with DHL.

Even if your parcel is say from USA to MUMBAI they ship it to New Delhi first enroute and then the fun starts, ur consignment gets stuck and then they ask you a big import duty, I flately refused and told them to send the product back to my supplier and they dropped the duty from Rs 25000/- to Rs 8000/- so guys pls sincerely dont use DHL.

NEVER, NEVER repeat NEVER use DHL,:cut better to use UPS/FEDEX, they may be a little more expensive but they dont hassle you.

Rgds

PRithvi

If the forex (for the customes duty)is not collected during ordering itself,how are you supposed to pay the courier service?Like the mode of payment?
And what's the maximum customs duty,now on Hi-Fi in India?(Is it 15%,of the declared value?)
Thanks.

Dear Roshan,

It does seem that you have had a bad experience/s in importing gear and/or know of people how have had similar experiences. We can accept that.

However it shouldn't prevent us from exploring legitimate options available, to enable the Indian Audiophile to get quality gear at affordable prices backed with the Manufacturer's warranty.

What is being proposed is, the Distributor underwrites the maximum Custom Duty amount in writing in advance...which means anything over the agreed amount will be borne by the Distributor. Prices would be further reduced as exports of these products begin.

I guess this should take care of concerns that the customer would get the short end of the stick. Additionally there is no need to feel guilty or apprehensive to import gear directly from the Manufacturer's at substantially lower prices.

The positive side is that these is a general agreement in this forum, that direct imports are possible and is alive & well in INDIA.

I trust as more & more audiophiles will see the benefits of this mechanism, the trickle would turn into a tide, forcing Manufacturing companies to rethink their strategies for INDIA.

Regards,

Junia.

Hi Junia,

I make a living in the EXIM trade. As mentioned in a previous thread, perhaps a small part of the World beating export community, in India. I've personally experienced all the problems that take place in the trade.

I can see that you are sincere about the part you want to play, but it's a veritable minefield. If you have the confidence and persevereance, you should be able to make it. But atleast you know it is possible, based on the past few years, and foreign that co's are looking at India.

It took me 10 years, and 50 years of heartache and effort compressed in to those 10 years. 10 years ago when I used to meet customers they didn't believe me about our capabilities. An Israeli asked me if I had an elephant at home!!! One German was surprised I could read an engineering drawing. An Englishman asked me if I learnt to speak English because of my travel....

Once you get in to manufacturing, that's another lifetime of experiences!!

So if you and your principals are in for the long haul, there is huge potential.

Roshan.

The idea is fine and will be big help to indian customers.

On the negative there are

1. Any induvidual consignment may be subject to higher levels of scrutiny for undervaluation by customs authorities and this will lead to imposition of duty on an arbitary value.

2. What we propose to save is octroi and local sales tax. With implementation of VAT the maximum tax will be reduced to 12.5% and if you are stationed in areas where they dont chrage octri you can save a lot.

3. If this trade flurish it may trigger an investigation into the part played by the local distributor. Query. what is his gain in this deal? How is he payed of by the principal company? Why shouldnt his commission be added to the import value of the goods ?

Hmmmm

Bahut Bada Chakkar Lagtaa Hai.

Manek.

Dear Roshan, Manek & Ani

Well with all your experience Roshan, it would be a great idea to meet up
with you in person ! Some business prospects perhaps ???????? !!

I am just so grateful that there are well meaning people wanting to give the
very best of advice....that too free !! In the capitalist world I am living
in everything is reduced to dollar & cents !

Having said that yes we are ever so determined to get this off the ground,
because we know there is a lot to be gained if we persist.............

Truth be known it is far more lucrative to view this whole operation from an
export perceptive rather then local distribution, however if we can give our
two paisa worth to the Indian Audiophile community, that would be far more
rewarding then merely counting the dollars made.

As to Ani's comments......the maximum custom duty is proposed would be
agreed upon in advance....anything over the agreed amount would be
underwritten by the Distributor. As to VAT let us see what the final rules
of engagement are going to be, before we can decide anything. As to
investigations, anyone is more than welcome...what is the Distributor's gain
? He is getting a commission directly & officially from the Principals...for
that he is offering warranty & sales support. The only difference is that
the commission is in moderate levels....not what the present audiophile are
being forced to bear, in terms of exorbitant prices for imported hi-end
gear.

Here is another one to you in Indian Audioland....it is not cast in
stone...just a thought....that too only for the Plinius+Harbeth+ Eichmann
combination...I have no authority to speak for the rest of the brands...will
an Exchange program work ?...or would it prove to be detrimental in the long
run ? In other words can a concept like E-Bay function or would the lines be
perceived to be muddy....would a customer have any doubts about the
authenticity of the goods being brand new at the time of purchase ? Would
the Indian market be mature enough to handle two distinct lines...one brand
new & the other pre owned...obliviously at a much lower price. The thought
was, to allow people the option of upgrades & also to have preowned
equipment available at even lower prices. Off course all this would not be
at the expense of anyone losing credibility........it takes so long to build
a reputation & the same can be lost in a heart beat !

As usual thanks for all the inputs !!

Regards,

Junia

P.S. And no !! There is no Bada Chakkar....just need to peg one step at a
time !!

jsa_ind schrieb:

As to Ani's comments......the maximum custom duty is proposed would be agreed upon in advance....anything over the agreed amount would be underwritten by the Distributor. As to VAT let us see what the final rules of engagement are going to be, before we can decide anything.

I think the questions was, what's the current import duty on audio goods in percentage terms ? We should be able to peg that number, what the official duty ?

As far as maximum customs duty underwritten by the distributor, what is that official percentage number ? Does any body know ?

regards

manek.

I thought it was 42%...however Roshan would be the best judge on this

roshan.....all eyes and ears are on you....can you give us that magic figure ?

Manek.

Here is another one to you in Indian Audioland....it is not cast in
stone...just a thought....that too only for the Plinius+Harbeth+ Eichmann
combination...I have no authority to speak for the rest of the brands...will
an Exchange program work ?...or would it prove to be detrimental in the long
run ? In other words can a concept like E-Bay function or would the lines be
perceived to be muddy....would a customer have any doubts about the
authenticity of the goods being brand new at the time of purchase ? Would
the Indian market be mature enough to handle two distinct lines...one brand
new & the other pre owned...obliviously at a much lower price. The thought
was, to allow people the option of upgrades & also to have preowned
equipment available at even lower prices. Off course all this would not be
at the expense of anyone losing credibility........it takes so long to build
a reputation & the same can be lost in a heart beat !

Prithvi,
Which Harbeth's speakers are coming to India,at what prices?
(especially bookshels).
Thanks.

Hi!
Junia can give you more information on what is coming and what is not. I think the NRG range is coming.
Rgds

Prithvi

Hi All,

I'm not in the elecronics business. I think the figures are 15% CD and 16% CVD, both on landed cost, including freight/carriage.

But, I will have it re-checked post the precise figures in a day or two.

Roshan.

Thanks a million Roshan !

Duty as on date is

Custom duty 15%
Addittional Duty (equal to Excise duty) - 16%
SAD(equal to max sales tax)- approx 13%

But when and on what products this duty is applicable? Only if you import direct from e-bay or any other manufacturer site?
Since some of the products are cheaper in INR terms than the GBP values,on the web.

The rates are applicable to goods falling under tarrif item no 8518 xx xx Amps, Speakers etc
8519 xx xx - Turntables, tape, Cdp players not including recorders
8520 xx xx tape recorders..

Custom duty is applicable on declared value or in case of dispute based on valuation of customs authorities.

Add Duty and Spl Add duty is applicable on Val+Custom duty+freight

you can get further info from
http://www.cbec.gov.in/

It may look a bit complex but you can get the hang of it by reading the Act and Rules along with tariff rates.

Hi All,

The duty is 15 % + 16% + 2% + 2% = 38% approximately.

If you buy something of 80 Rs and the freight is 20 Rs, you will pay an additional 38/39 Rs as all types of duties.

Ani, I think SAD does not exist anymore. We have 2% educational cess instead, both on Customs Duty and CVD.

Regards,

Roshan.

Dear Roshan,

As usual you are a life saver !

Thank you for your inputs,

Best regards,

Junia.

hey Junia,
can u give me a ballpark figure aas to how much the Harbeths are going to cost.
Benks

Dear Benks

Anyway from 60K to 500K

Regards,

Junia.

To All In Indian Audioland,

As the "Trio" moves forward....are there any suggestions in which major city/ies would Demo Rooms be most appropriate ?

These companies wanted to set up demo rooms more in an actual listening environment....(read as a living room) rather then in a sterile commercial place. In the West it is quite common for people to hang around in a common place to discuss various aspects of audio

Will such a place/s work in the Indian environment ?

Against a Credit Card or similar guarantee would it be a good idea to have pieces of equipment loaned to audiophiles for evaluations at their residences ? May not be the whole range but a good percentage of gear could be available for home evaluations, if there is a reasonable response.

Regards,

Junia.

At least in Metros,to begin with(Mumbai/B'lore/Delhi/Chennai/Calcutta and possibly few other cities like Hyd/Pune).
And to loan for actual auditioning,would be a novel/bold move,first of it's kind,Iam sure,serious buyers can definitely look forward, to this utility.

Listening in a cozy warm comfy place really would change things for the better. I am for it.

As for the cities, you definately have to do Bombay and Bangalore and if possible the other metros. Other cities may come during the first wave or maybe the second.
The hi-fi revolution I see is happening mostly in Bombay and Bangalore. Need to be where the action is.

Loaning equipment for home demos is a good idea. Actually there are a few delaers who will let select customers do home demo's. So the concept is not alien to India.

Manek.

Hey Junia,

I understand the import duty for components is 5%. If that is the case you have enough margin to play around, if you intend to manufacture in India. But you need a buy back commitment from your principals as the market in India will be miniscule, in the near future.

Roshan.

so if i import say a couple of 10 inch drivers i have to pay only 5% duty and customs in total disregarding the freight charges.
Benks

what do u intend to do with those 10" drivers?? Any idea??

well, i have a pair of old(i mean old, 30 years and over) Murphy speakers. the drivers naturally have lost their capabilities. it is not a floorstander. it is a monitor kind of speaker. but the cabinet is very nice and heavy(almost 20-22kgs each) and completely filled with glass wool(yeah, its a closed box design). i am planning to replace the 10 inch drivers and the other two midrange drivers with asingle 5.5 inch vifa driver and the horn tweeter witha vifa tweeter. naturally i would be calling on some of my diyaudio.com friends to help me with this.
i can get all the other components here except forgood quality 10 inch drivers. do u know where i acan get them or how much i'll have to pay as customs if i get them imported. it is still excellent(actually tighter bass then my diamonds) eventhough Prithvi suggested that i do away with them i want to hang on to them and keep them in my room. but lately the surrounds(of the 10 inch divers ) has become weak and the cone too has started to develop small holes. hope this answers ur question. is there anyoe who can help me
BTW the original drivers are of Onkyo make.
Benks