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Prices of Plinius products 300% more than the distributor price

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Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#1 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 06:48
As promised, I am back with the distributor-mark up price difference for Plinius.

SA-Ref distributor price = Rs 200,000/-
SA-Ref price as quoted by Absolute Phase = Rs 800,000/-
Difference in price = Rs 600,000/-

Mark-up = 300%

Points to ponder:

1)What accounts for a 300% mark up?
2)Customers pay for warranty, after sales and infrastructural costs in the dealer price. Where do we have a Plinius showroom, service center, etc to justify 300% mark up?
3)Are these relevant questions or should be taken up with Plinius in New Zealand?
4) Can the local dealer (AP) and India dealer (Soundsmiths) provide some answers?
5)Can deaf, square_wave, etc help out?

My opinion: This is a clear nexus to hike prices ridiculously without any justifications. The so called local dealer and the distributor do not want to invest in basic things like a showroom, a service center and train personnel to ensure good after sales and warranty support, which by the way are the rights of a customer and not a favour done by the dealer. And I know, like earlier, the dealer and the distributor will find a hundred reasons not to bring in transparency in this forum and continue to cheat customers. And there will be their allies (similar cheats) who will fight tooth and nail to prevent revealing the truth in the forum instead of educating us.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 07:22
Can you indicate the European RETAIL price ?

That would put things in better perspective....
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#3 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 07:23

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Can you indicate the European RETAIL price ?

That would put things in better perspective....


What do you mean?
Jeeves
Stammgast
#4 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 07:27
It's $15000/in the US.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#5 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 07:52
Ah !

and I suspect that its Euro 15 K in Europe.

Indian importers receive European pricing....

Anyways, Even US $ 15 K at Rs 45 per $ amounts to Rs 6,75,000.

Care to consider the approx 54% Custom's Duty, including Basic + CVD etc

Then Freight

Then distributor's margin

Then Retailer's margin....

So Rs 8 L does not seem disproportionate EVEN AT US Prices.

At Rs 59 = 1 Euro,

Euro 15K amounts to Rs 8,85,000


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 31. Jul 2006, 07:53 bearbeitet]
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#6 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:07
Jeeves wrote :


It's $15000/in the US.


Dare devil wrote :


SA-Ref distributor price = Rs 200,000/-


Dear DD wher did you arrive at an equation of 200,000 being equal to $15,000??.

Can you please let the forum know the rationale behind the assumed 2,00,000 price.
antsy
Neuling
#7 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:11
The MRP of the Plinius SA-reference is Rs 7,05,000/- and not Rs 8 lacs. With all the duty, freight , insurance and distributor + dealer margins, its a fair price, which is very close to the US retail of $ 15000 = Rs 7,20,000/- (if you take it as 1$ = rs 48)

Actually cheaper than USA. So where is the so called 300% margins!!!!!!!!!!!
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#8 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:14

SUB_BOSS schrieb:
Dear DD wher did you arrive at an equation of 200,000 being equal to $15,000??.

Can you please let the forum know the rationale behind the assumed 2,00,000 price.


200,000 is the distributor price and $15,000 is the US retail price. There is no assumption here about the 200,000 and I didn't equate 200,000 to $15,000.
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#9 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:18

antsy schrieb:
The MRP of the Plinius SA-reference is Rs 7,05,000/- and not Rs 8 lacs. With all the duty, freight , insurance and distributor + dealer margins, its a fair price, which is very close to the US retail of $ 15000 = Rs 7,20,000/- (if you take it as 1$ = rs 48)

Actually cheaper than USA. So where is the so called 300% margins!!!!!!!!!!!


In which age are you quoting 1$ = Rs 48? Dollar is trading between 44-45 now.
ani
Stammgast
#10 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:18
Dear Dare Devil,

Rs 200000 is it the INdian Dealer price ?

What is the US Retail Price?

Warm regards

Anil
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#11 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:20

200,000 is the distributor price and $15,000 is the US retail price. There is no assumption here about the 200,000 and I didn't equate 200,000 to $15,000.


Ok then it's Jeeves and Amp_nut who got it wrong and assumed 15000 $'s or euros MSRP to dist price.. oops that is substantial diffrence DD... Can I have a SA ref too
abhi.pani
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:22

antsy schrieb:
The MRP of the Plinius SA-reference is Rs 7,05,000/- and not Rs 8 lacs. With all the duty, freight , insurance and distributor + dealer margins, its a fair price, which is very close to the US retail of $ 15000 = Rs 7,20,000/- (if you take it as 1$ = rs 48)

Actually cheaper than USA. So where is the so called 300% margins!!!!!!!!!!!


I think we are missing the point here...the 300% margin is being calculated over the Distributor Price not the US retail price.
But what I fail to understand shouldnt we add the custom duties + taxes + frieght etc etc to the Rs.200000 figure to arrive at the actual landing distributor price in India ?
Then the margin would be smaller I guess !!!!
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#13 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:22

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Ah !

and I suspect that its Euro 15 K in Europe.

Indian importers receive European pricing....

Anyways, Even US $ 15 K at Rs 45 per $ amounts to Rs 6,75,000.

Care to consider the approx 54% Custom's Duty, including Basic + CVD etc


You mean the distributors import at the rate of US or Europe retail price and pay duty on the retail price?? This is news to me!! Than what are they distributors for? We better directly import then.

Then Freight


Amp_Nut schrieb:
Then distributor's margin

Then Retailer's margin....

So Rs 8 L does not seem disproportionate EVEN AT US Prices.

At Rs 59 = 1 Euro,

Euro 15K amounts to Rs 8,85,000


Margin's for what? For no showroom? For no after sales warranty and support? How can you compare the US and Europe dealers who have invested heavily in infrastructure like showrooms, service centers, etc? Where do have those in India?
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#14 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:24

ani schrieb:
Dear Dare Devil,

Rs 200000 is it the INdian Dealer price ?

What is the US Retail Price?

Warm regards

Anil


Rs 200,000 is the Indian distributor price. I can agree that if we add customs and freight and margins, the mark-up can be 100%, which still makes the price as 400,000 INR. How on earth does it become 800,000 INR??
Arj
Inventar
#15 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:29
DD, do you have a similiar breakup for the 9200 or 9100 ?
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#16 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:31
Can someone give me a break up for Sugden A21A as I find it to be too overpriced..
Jeeves
Stammgast
#17 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:37
I'd love to buy some $ at 44-45!
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#18 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:38

Arj schrieb:
DD, do you have a similiar breakup for the 9200 or 9100 ?


9100:
Distributor Price = Rs 38,000/-
Price quoted by AP = Rs 161,000/-

Mark-up = 325%

9200:
Distributor Price = Rs 56,000/-
Price quoted by AP = Rs Rs 240,000/-

Mark-up = 330%
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#19 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:39

I'd love to buy some $ at 44-45!


you mean sugdens??

Then I will have four.. 2 per channel biwire em and climb the stairs to audio grail
Arj
Inventar
#20 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:44
Thanks DD. Was just trying to do a comparison with European prices.

Used prices for
Plinius Sa-250 Mkiii : 4500 €
PLINIUS AUDIO 9200 :2600 €

again these are used prices and hence the new would be higher by 30 to 50 %.
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#21 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:48
Jokes apart!!!

DD the prices provided by you are distributor prices, so I'm assuming this the price any disty shud get from Plinius..right!!, So this leaves me with a dirty feeling that 9100 is so affordable but yet so far. Finally DD how is it that you so conclusively put the prices here?? can you give me prices for 102.
Arj
Inventar
#22 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:48

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

I'd love to buy some $ at 44-45!


you mean sugdens??

Then I will have four.. 2 per channel biwire em and climb the stairs to audio grail


since 1 will be drawing close to 250 W continuously, youll have a 4 plate stove in your audio room and can cook your food in it.
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#23 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:51

since 1 will be drawing close to 250 W continuously, youll have a 4 plate stove in your audio room and can cook your food in it.


Wow thats great in two ways..

1. savings on cooking fuel.
2. Audiophilic cooking.. hmm er Audiophobic..ehmm forget it
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#24 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:52

SUB_BOSS schrieb:
Jokes apart!!!

DD the prices provided by you are distributor prices, so I'm assuming this the price any disty shud get from Plinius..right!!, So this leaves me with a dirty feeling that 9100 is so affordable but yet so far. Finally DD how is it that you so conclusively put the prices here?? can you give me prices for 102.



SA-102 has been discontinued.

SA-103:
Distributor Price = Rs 87,500/- (approx)
Price quoted by AP = Rs 368,500/-

Mark-up = 320%
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#25 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 08:55

Distributor Price = Rs 87,500/- (approx)


Thats damn affordable... Hi Arj I will have 4 SA 103's now.. .

DD can you please let me know what are the associated costs for SA 103 w.r.t to customs, freight, insurance etc etc so it makes more sense to understand your analogy.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#26 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 09:03
Dear Dare Devil,

INTERNATIONALLY, distributors receive ( Typically ) a 50% markup PLUS Taxes ie Taxes are Extra.

If the Retail price in the US is, the US Disty will get it at US $ 7500.

You claim that the disty price is Rs 200,000 and assuming US $ 45 ( sorry Sub Boss ! ) that works out to US $ 4,444

Franky, I Dont Believe This ( Rs 2 L or US $ 4444 disty price for a US $ 15,000 retail price.)

I have checked out Plinus amps in Spore too... the dealer is very obliging, and comes down quite a bit on the MRP.... but Certainly NOT below 50% MRP.

Check out Mail order on the net too.

If you find ANY guy offering the SA-Ref NEW, on the net, thru Mail order at ANY PRICE below the US $ 7500, ( leave aside 15% above US $ 4444,) it would be a revelation.

Without Rancour, I think you have the price wrong.

If US Disty to Retail price is 50% PLUS TAXES, then there is no strong argument against the price quoted in India.

If you want to take up Service and other issues.... THAT is another matter altogether.


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 31. Jul 2006, 09:04 bearbeitet]
bhagwan69
Inventar
#27 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 09:03

Dare_Devil schrieb:

Arj schrieb:
DD, do you have a similiar breakup for the 9200 or 9100 ?


9100:
Distributor Price = Rs 38,000/-
Price quoted by AP = Rs 161,000/-

Mark-up = 325%

9200:
Distributor Price = Rs 56,000/-
Price quoted by AP = Rs Rs 240,000/-

Mark-up = 330%


You are a STAR !

I love you;

Do you have any more such revelations to make ???

Any other brands ?

AP deals in many other audio brands, do you have all their DP Prices ? Linn + Proac + Dynaudio etc.

P.S. The Plinus DP Prices are in New Zealand $ or US $'s and not in Euro. At least they were in US $'s when Peter Thomson was around.

Sir, what you are doing is great 'fun' for us, however, not done in the right spirit. It is detremental to the 'health' of the 'Audio Trade' in our small but growing market.

I would suggest that you kindly consider stopping this. It will kill the trade. The DP's of products are to be kept 'confidential'. Please, I request you........

Thanks,

BHAGWAN
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#28 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 09:12

bhagwan69 schrieb:


You are a STAR !

I love you;

Do you have any more such revelations to make ???

Any other brands ?

AP deals in many other audio brands, do you have all their DP Prices ? Linn + Proac + Dynaudio etc.

P.S. The Plinus DP Prices are in New Zealand $ or US $'s and not in Euro. At least they were in US $'s when Peter Thomson was around.

Sir, what you are doing is great 'fun' for us, however, not done in the right spirit. It is detremental to the 'health' of the 'Audio Trade' in our small but growing market.

I would suggest that you kindly consider stopping this. It will kill the trade. The DP's of products are to be kept 'confidential'. Please, I request you........

Thanks,

BHAGWAN


Neither do I care for your praise nor do I care for your sarcasm.

I suppose the after sales support, showroom and warranty details that the dealers are supposed to provide are not supposed to be confidential; or do they?

If what needs to be revealed is kept confidential, let's reveal what needs to be kept confidential!!
bhagwan69
Inventar
#29 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 09:16
[quote="Dare_Devil"][quote="bhagwan69"]

If what needs to be revealed is kept confidential, let's reveal what needs to be kept confidential!![/quote]

Point noted;

Well said.

BHAGWAN
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#30 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 09:23

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Dear Dare Devil,

INTERNATIONALLY, distributors receive ( Typically ) a 50% markup PLUS Taxes ie Taxes are Extra.

If the Retail price in the US is, the US Disty will get it at US $ 7500.

You claim that the disty price is Rs 200,000 and assuming US $ 45 ( sorry Sub Boss ! ) that works out to US $ 4,444

Franky, I Dont Believe This ( Rs 2 L or US $ 4444 disty price for a US $ 15,000 retail price.)

I have checked out Plinus amps in Spore too... the dealer is very obliging, and comes down quite a bit on the MRP.... but Certainly NOT below 50% MRP.

Check out Mail order on the net too.

If you find ANY guy offering the SA-Ref NEW, on the net, thru Mail order at ANY PRICE below the US $ 7500, ( leave aside 15% above US $ 4444,) it would be a revelation.

Without Rancour, I think you have the price wrong.

If US Disty to Retail price is 50% PLUS TAXES, then there is no strong argument against the price quoted in India.

If you want to take up Service and other issues.... THAT is another matter altogether.


I agree with your argument.

What if I prove you that SA-Ref disti price is Rs 200,000/-?

If in US disti to retail price is 50% more, let's make it 100% in India (for duty, etc). That makes the SA-Ref Rs 400,000/-. How does it become Rs 800,000????
Jeeves
Stammgast
#31 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 09:26
I think this should be moved to off topic as there is no validity here.
bhagwan69
Inventar
#32 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 09:34

Jeeves schrieb:
I think this should be moved to off topic as there is no validity here.


I would second that suggestion;

Manek - please do look into it.

Thanks,

BHAGWAN
abhi.pani
Inventar
#33 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 09:53
I really dont know whats DD's intention is nor do I care for the same...but whats noticeable is there are few members in this forum who are otherwise quite in-active but very active in threads like this...mostly trying to suppress things....

I may never be able to afford an SA-REF or any such high-end stuffs from Plinius but still I am SHOCKED looking at these prices and margins....I think any normal human being would be
bhagwan69
Inventar
#34 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 10:04

abhi.pani schrieb:
I really dont know whats DD's intention is nor do I care for the same...but whats noticeable is there are few members in this forum who are otherwise quite in-active but very active in threads like this...mostly trying to suppress things....

I may never be able to afford an SA-REF or any such high-end stuffs from Plinius but still I am SHOCKED looking at these prices and margins....I think any normal human being would be :.


Interesting Observation !!!!

Sir, can you imagine that any audio product is sold by the manufacturer to its distributor with at least a 100 % margin if not more.........
i.e. If a product has a DP [Distributor Price] of Rs. 100/- from Manufacturer to Distributor, then the Manufacturers Cost Price [Net - Inclusive of all costs] is about Rs. 40/- to Rs. 50/-

Therefore, we as consumers pay Rs. 300/- for a product that has actually costed the manufacturer Rs. 50/- [6 times the price].
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#35 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 10:14
now just THINK of what the component COST IS... aall, the manufacturer has His overhead and margins ....

Componet Cost : 10% ???

THAT is why, I had started a Thread.... Ages ago here on this forum : Are High Margins Killing The Audiophile market ?
bhagwan69
Inventar
#36 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 10:18
Hi AN !

You are absolutely right;

The margins are crazy.
But they are so bacause the volumes are small & the over heads are too much. Hence the prices are marked up the amouth that they are.

Basically, if the volumes picked up the margins would come down & the prices too would come down.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#37 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 10:23

Interesting Observation !!!!

Sir, can you imagine that any audio product is sold by the manufacturer to its distributor with at least a 100 % margin if not more.........
i.e. If a product has a DP [Distributor Price] of Rs. 100/- from Manufacturer to Distributor, then the Manufacturers Cost Price [Net - Inclusive of all costs] is about Rs. 40/- to Rs. 50/-

Therefore, we as consumers pay Rs. 300/- for a product that has actually costed the manufacturer Rs. 50/- [6 times the price].


Yes I understand that...a manufacturer keeping a 100% margin is acceptable because he incurrs the biggest risk of Conceptualizing, Designing, Manufacturing, Testing, Advertising, Studying and Getting it to the "RIGHT" market, Giving replacement warranties (basically replacing at its own cost), then further R&D to improve the product etc etc...
At every point the manufacturer takes the responsibility at its own cost..so keeping a margin of 100% does have a lot of justification. But a Distributor/Dealer has way way way less responsibilities and risks associated with the same product. They have the freedom to pick up a well-rated product, stock it and sell it....they dont give warraties at their own cost, nor do they spend on R&D, then what for is such a margin extracted ???

They are not even the foot-nails when compared to the stature of the manufacturer of the products they deal with but still they expect the same percentage of margin WOW...
bhagwan69
Inventar
#38 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 10:25
Inference ?

Become a Dealer / Distributor !

Less Risk
Big Margin
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#39 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 10:27


The margins are crazy.
But they are so bacause the volumes are small & the over heads are too much. Hence the prices are marked up the amouth that they are.

Basically, if the volumes picked up the margins would come down & the prices too would come down.



Actually is a Viscious circle.....

IF the prices quoted by DD are true ... ( and this is a GENERAL Example, NOT an attempt to flog Plinius )

How many 9100 have sold in the country ?

How many 9200 have sold in the country ?

How many SA-REFs have sold in the country ?

As per DD's price ventilation, Plinius could have :

Sold as many SA-REFs as it has 9200 !!! ( almost Same price )

Sold as many 9200 as they have currently sold 9100 ( almost same price )

And with the 9100 THEY COULD HAVE OPENED OUT A HUGE WORLD OF AUDIOPHILE SOUND TO THOSE THAT TODAY SIMPLY CANT AFFORD MORE THAN ENTRY LEVEL ... NON FI

So


Are High Margins Killing The Audiophile market ?


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 31. Jul 2006, 10:33 bearbeitet]
abhi.pani
Inventar
#40 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 10:30

bhagwan69 schrieb:
Inference ?

Become a Dealer / Distributor !

Less Risk
Big Margin


And Fool Consumers !!
rockamedi
Gesperrt
#41 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 10:36
Hey I'm not going to believe this.

DD how can I beleive your claims that 200K is dist price for SA ref?

Tommorow someone else will come here and post diffrent dist prices for an entirely diffrent product and expect us to beleive.

How can we trust your claims?? Please justify.
rockamedi
Gesperrt
#42 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 11:10
Still waiting for your justification
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#43 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 11:11

rockamedi schrieb:
Hey I'm not going to believe this.

DD how can I beleive your claims that 200K is dist price for SA ref?

Tommorow someone else will come here and post diffrent dist prices for an entirely diffrent product and expect us to beleive.

How can we trust your claims?? Please justify.


Folks, Check out the below links to believe your eyes.

http://s15.quickshar...ce_List_NZ_.pdf.html

http://s15.quickshar...etail_Price.xls.html

The export price list is what the distributors will pay duty for.

I find it hard to believe that the dealer and the distributor can have 200% mark-up even after the import duties and freight are paid.

And if the dealer and the distributors want to share a premium apart from their margins, what is this premium for? It naturally should be for the quality of the showroom, after sales and warranty support. Even then, how do we justify 300-350% mark-up??
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#44 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 11:12

rockamedi schrieb:
Still waiting for your justification


Posted!! Treat your eyes.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#45 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 11:20
DD

Saw yr post.... the pdf file is for the year 2004, and it lists the disty price for the SA Ref at US 6920.

Not unreasonable to assume that today, after 2 years its closer to US $ 7500.

How did you get the figure of Rs 2 L ?

Even US $ 6920 x Rs 45 = Rs 3,11,000
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#46 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 11:28

Amp_Nut schrieb:
DD

Saw yr post.... the pdf file is for the year 2004, and it lists the disty price for the SA Ref at US 6920.

Not unreasonable to assume that today, after 2 years its closer to US $ 7500.

How did you get the figure of Rs 2 L ?

Even US $ 6920 x Rs 45 = Rs 3,11,000


The prices in the pdf are in NZ dollars and not in US dollars.

1 NZD = 0.617561 USD

6920 NZD = 4273.5 USD

If we take 1USD = 45 INR

6920 NZD = 4273.5 USD = Rs 192308

Which is not even Rs 200,000/- as quoted by me.

Now, do you still think Plinius increased its price from Rs 1.92 lakhs in December 2004 to Rs 800,000/- in 1.5 years (till today?)??
rockamedi
Gesperrt
#47 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 11:39
Dieses ist nicht angemessen!!

Sie müssen uns informieren, wem Sie nur können wir Wahrheit dann annehmen sind. Warum nehmen Sie diese Initiative, um blanke Wahrheit aufzudecken? Sind Sie irgendein Selbst angenommener Gott. Sie benehmen sich wie ein Esel.

Gruss
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#48 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 11:43

rockamedi schrieb:
Dieses ist nicht angemessen!!

Sie müssen uns informieren, wem Sie nur können wir Wahrheit dann annehmen sind. Warum nehmen Sie diese Initiative, um blanke Wahrheit aufzudecken? Sind Sie irgendein Selbst angenommener Gott. Sie benehmen sich wie ein Esel.

Gruss


???????
rockamedi
Gesperrt
#49 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 11:46
Sorgen Sie sich nicht auch much.It's, das, um über deutsche Freunde zu kommen allgemein ist.
Dare_Devil
Stammgast
#50 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 11:50

rockamedi schrieb:
Sorgen Sie sich nicht auch much.It's, das, um über deutsche Freunde zu kommen allgemein ist.


Can you please post in English like your previous posts?
rockamedi
Gesperrt
#51 erstellt: 31. Jul 2006, 11:52
I thought you all would understand deutsch..I mean German.
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