DIY 1X = Main Stream 4X

I agree with you, bhagwan69.

There is no manpower costs either, and the DIY rarely acxcounts for the Overheads, such as countless trips to stores to buy this and that...

Actually, I believe that most commercial products have a Material cost of just 10% of the MRP.

Hence maybe

DIY 1X = Main Stream 10X

Amp Nut, that is the case in most manufacturering.
The Material Cost seldom exceeds 1/10th the retail price.
The other costs are prohibitive, hence the mrp's have to be so high.
But the Main Stream Manufacturer has the advantage of volume & hence his cost of raw material procurement is far lower than that of a DIY person.
To site an example, our forum members who are DIY persons and make speakers may be paying US $'s 50/- to 80/- for a tweeter [Seas or Scanspeak], while a main stream manufacturer like Paradigm or PSB must be buying that same driver for US $'s 10/- to 30/-, this is simply the case because they buy in larger [much larger] volumes.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

This is because in DIY there is no D & D [distributor / dealer] margin, no ad expense, no marketing cost etc. Hence, projects from DIY should always be compared with main stream production projects with a multiple of 4 to 6 times.

Ahh...spot on Bhagwan Ji.
I guess what others have to say

To site an example, our forum members who are DIY persons and make speakers may be paying US $'s 50/- to 80/- for a tweeter [Seas or Scanspeak], while a main stream manufacturer like Paradigm or PSB must be buying that same driver for US $'s 10/- to 30/-, this is simply the case because they buy in larger [much larger] volumes.

Good Point, Sir.

Absolutely Correct !

Bhagwan has come up with an interesting view.

I thought I'll share some point that I would like to bring to kind attention of all members.

When we have more free time (say while in college) we can indulge more in DIY kind of activities.

When one starts working all of a sudden the value of time shoots up like that of real estate. It is directly proportionate to ones income

Most DIY'ers will be having other hobbies which may need lesser time for the same enjoyment.

This is the time one goes and buys an affordable system and start enjoying music,(does not mean that DIY dont enjoy music) mind you at the bottom of his heart he still believes that he can improve on this system

DIY is a good hobby(I still love and indulge in it in a small way) but one has to keep the ears open for commercial systems that may be good and affordable too.

When 1x is what you can afford DIY
When 4X is affordable take a look at both.

Regards
Anil

very good concept which we should use for comparisons.

i would feel the comparison is more on the 3X range for high volume products (NAD/Marantz/Rotel etc etc) and 5-10X for the higher value lower volume products ie Krell etc ..

of course as mentioned above on factor which we do not take into account is our own time/effort and its value to us. eg for me DIY is a strict nono as any time i get i would like to spend it on family/music/reading..

I agree with Bhagwan’s comparison of 1X Diy to 4X / 6X Mainstream. I always believed in this too. You get probably 15k worth of materials in a 100k worth mainstream component.

So this also means that if DIY is done right, a Diy product costing 1k$ will be as good as 4k$ or 6k$ right ? The key word here is “ done right “.

We in India often tend to value "Knowledge" & know how at ZERO... maybe because manpower is cheap ??

Hence we Assume ( Ass-U-Me) that most of the generic knowledge shared on the net is as valuable and as good as what a dedicated manufacturer has aqrrived after huge investments in Know how, experience, machines and inventory..

IMHO, DIY can Never ( Oops ! politically Incorrect ) attain the consistency or level of state-of-the-art excellence.

Good point AmpNut..

But again i am not sure as to how many of DIY are inspired bys some classic products ..which in case is a informal "Trickle down" the Proac 38 clone is what first comes to mind.

I hacve also been told that the design for the AKSA class a was borrowed from sugdens earlier 10W a21 amp

Hi,

There's another aspect to DIY Audio which to me is more important. DIY encourages you to explore unconventional technologies, and avenues, to better sound reproduction. Buck convention. Conventional thinking sometimes misleads, and at times is just plain wrong.

Mainstream audio, whether it's high end or low end, is caught in its own straightjacket. It has to follow convention. Marketing demands it. It's much easier to sell a multi-driver loudspeaker system, than a single full-ranger. See how much more the customer gets - besides, they've always been made that way!

The bane to the DIYer in India, in the past, has been lack of technical help. No longer. The internet has opened up the world, especially the work of people who refuse to follow convention. These are the people who do innovative work in audio, especially meaningful in the human enjoyment of music. Look up their work, learn from it. Become part of the DIY community.

Not only will you achieve more enjoyment of music in your homes, it may actually turn out to be a lot cheaper!

Viren.

Hence we Assume ( Ass-U-Me) that most of the generic knowledge shared on the net is as valuable and as good as what a dedicated manufacturer has aqrrived after huge investments in Know how, experience, machines and inventory..

You are right Amp Nut. We've to pay for their "intellectual property" & not for the qty of comps which goes into the eqmnt.

Two things are getting mixed up here.

1) DIY
2) Locally made products or custom made products (again locally)

They are both as different as day and night. The second issue is subjective and i'm not going to discuss this here.

FACT NO 1 : DIY is defintely NOT cheap.

1) The cost of required instruments, tools, etc., etc., is going to cost you pretty hefty.
2) you are also going to pay price in terms of components that you "blow" in the process
3) and components that you need to replace (eg : replace a 10k resistor with 20k resistor) as you start to develop your component.
4) if it becomes a habit (addiction), you'll end up spending a fortune.

Unless you go through a DIY cycle, you will not really understand the magnitude of this cost and overhead. This is not just true for trying out something new, but even for copying a well known design such as the proac clones.

Those thinking you can get cheaper product via DIY, think again !!!

The only exception being IKEA style DIY, where you just need a screw-driver. In this case, i'll agree to the cost benefit....but it hardly reflect's the true spirit of DIY.

Those of you in Bangalore, please visit the Kanua hotel on Sarjapur road. A few DIY enthusiats have put together a wonderful music system there.....and you can also see thier innovation. The basic idea might not be original, but the itegration would have definetly required some amount of mathematics and imagination.


FACT NO 2 : DIY is a hobby by itself.

1) like Viren already mentioned - to explore new possibilities that are not available commercially or something radically new. For example, the scanspeak drivers that i use in my personal speakers are not used in any speakers from well known brands...it has a following only in the DIY community.

2) like any other hobby...it is a passion to build your own components; you also learn a lot. It is a learning for me everyday. For example, i'm developing a new amp for my personal use and i'm faced with the problem of choke ringing...and the DIY community has the answer at bottleneck and audioasylum's DIY forum. I go to bed having learnt something good today (will attempt to fix it tommorow).

3) It is an iterative process and there is no shortcut. I've been working on my new amp for 4 months now, and i'm sure that it is going to take a lot more effort and time, as i go through the learning process. It does require lots of patience.

4) Most important : the "kick" of achieving something on your own. If you are able to even build a clone of proac...it's still hat's off...bcos it is not as simple as it seems (unless ofcourse, you buy a IKEA style kit)

Regards
Siva.

ALS schrieb:

Hence we Assume ( Ass-U-Me) that most of the generic knowledge shared on the net is as valuable and as good as what a dedicated manufacturer has aqrrived after huge investments in Know how, experience, machines and inventory.. You are right Amp Nut. We've to pay for their "intellectual property" & not for the qty of comps which goes into the eqmnt.

This is pretty much true for DIY community as well. Do you think there will be so much material available on the web, without someone investing money on tools and instruments !!

Do you really think all manufacturers have the financial strenght or the volume to do things like custom semi-conductors (like Krell) or custom drivers (like sonus faber). Most manufactuers...don't. A lot of budget product of well known brand hardly go through any R&D....read some of my earlier post on how chines OEM products are labeled in different countries.

Just as you cannot generalize the abilities of the manufactuers, you cannot generalize the abilities of the DIY community either. I'm relatively a beginner with less than 8 years experience in this now. However, there are folks doing it for decades (including Mr.Murthy)....and there is a wealth of knowledge with them.

Regards
Siva.

Siva, I'm aware DIY is an expensive hobby. If you want to 've that kick you can go in that way I respect & encourage DIY community, but I'm not into it, I go by brand/model etc....may be my weakness

rgds
Sudarshan

From looking at the direct costs posted by our members for DIY speaker manufacture, the costs are Rs. 20,000+ (Ronnie22 & Sachi's projects). After adding the additional costs (of rework, equipment, transport and procurement expenses etc), DIY is viable only if u can make something that will outclass that from a mid to top tier manufacturer. Budget purchases are definitely cheaper than DIY. (An entry-level amp costs 5,000 and a speaker 8,500).

Ronnie and Sachi correct me if I have erred.

What drives people to DIY is the sheer enjoyment of creation. And believe me, it's a much better way to spend time than on TV.

My speaker set me back by about 18k including labor and all..excluding the running about which was a whole lot more..

The amplifier cost me abt 15k which essentially includes reworking the entire amplifier internals..meaning i actually built it twice(stupid soldering of mine caued it to fail by dramatically blowing the transformer which blew the rest of the stuff out)..even the crossover board was built twice, i blew 4 amplkifier channels, i blew a transformer i blew 6 capacitors totaling 14000uf, 2 bridge rectifier diodes, umpteen number of wires...all this with the help of Arasu and his machine shop and casework help.
If not for the last part this project would have gone way out of control and me thrown out of the house instead of being sent here for my higher studies...

Hell, i did it for fun and to gain knowledge...learnt some wooding stuff, i now know waht to do and what not to do for the next speaker project. There is going to be a whole lot more calculations and measurements before i design the next speaker with some 3 D models and also give attention to looks..

Its fun and i like it..i don't mind losing a couple of hours sleep over it..i remmber i was studying for my GRE while i was desinging the cabinet on winisd at 3 in the morning..

Recommend: Ella Fitzgerald - The Cole Porter songbook

I have this LP (I think that it is a double LP) - it is really very nice. Ella F sings beautifully in this album.

ALS schrieb:

Siva, I'm aware DIY is an expensive hobby. If you want to 've that kick you can go in that way I respect & encourage DIY community, but I'm not into it, I go by brand/model etc....may be my weakness rgds Sudarshan

DIY and Audiophile; Two different hobbies by themselves.

So if you are just an Audiophile (who are the majority), there is nothing wrong. Sit back and enjoy the music. You might have to pay a small premium (been discussed N number of times on this forum) for buying a well known brand, but the premium is required and justified.

However, it is also wrong to assume that DIY efforts cannot match what established manufacturers can do. Infact it may just be the opposite. You need to remember that manufactuers have to cater to a market ... which itself is a very serious limitation (Purity of sound might have to be compromised for a wider acceptance of the product).

Take products... like Marnatz 7, Mcintosh C22, VTL Ultimate & even Hovland ...they are all based on the very same design used by some amps from the 1950's. Restricting our discussion to the above mentioned preamps alone ...the designs by these manufactuers are not radical ..but it is refinment over a iterative research process. This is very much possible for a DIY entusiast...

Having said, there are manufactuers who come up with radical designs...so do a few DIY enthusiasts


Regards
Siva.

sivat schrieb:

ALS schrieb: Having said, there are manufactuers who come up with radical designs...so do a few DIY enthusiasts

I personally love and respect 'radical designs'
They are good fun to study & listen to.

However, I am of an opinion that any and all DIY persons should try and keep main stream products that have a 'commercial' value of 4X of their projects component cost in the same listening room and then evaluate the DIY job that they have made. This will keep things in a reality check.
Many DIY persons on the international forums are DIY's because they 'reject' main stream. That is OK. But you may oppose an idea or a product only after you have done a comparison with and against it !!!!

Siva,

Well put.

Viren.

Bhagwan...agree with you....if not keep a product then atleast compare it with one which is 4X as a benchmark.

manek.

So if you are just an Audiophile (who are the majority), there is nothing wrong. Sit back and enjoy the music

JUST a Music Lover!

However, it is also wrong to assume that DIY efforts cannot match what established manufacturers can do

True, DIYs can achieve much more. I've few friends who design & built their own amps. Recently I listened to one valve amp built by himself (some UK design based) which was equal to or better than any comml amps which costs 3x. But he has to spend quite lot of money & his valuable time to achieve it. Majority of Audiophiles or Music Lovers won't like to get into all this mess & simply they buy what they like most. As you said DIY is different hobby by itself.

Tnks

bhagwan69 schrieb:

However, I am of an opinion that any and all DIY persons should try and keep main stream products that have a 'commercial' value of 4X of their projects component cost in the same listening room and then evaluate the DIY job that they have made. This will keep things in a reality check.

Agree with you. It is very important to do an A/B comparision to realize the + and - of the DIY product and to analyze where it stands. The more the equipment with which you compare - more the knowledge you gain. DIY is all about being rational....

A/B comparision alone with not help. You also need to invite others for a listening session...so that you get a more unbiased opinion. But here is where the problem also lies. For example, someone likes Wilson Audio's Alexandria...and few others just hate it. The same rational will apply for any DIY product...some may like it, other may not. So you need to start drawing lines and use your judgement..

More importantly. If DIY folks know so much to make an amp or speaker - i'm sure they will have the little extra rational, on the importance of a A/B comparision with a main stream product. Do give them that much credit !!


Regards
Siva.

I've made custom speakers for a few folks in Bangalore.

It was always after listening to the speaker with another much more expensive (4x and more ..) that they decided to get the speakers made for them. Do you think people will be ready to put out extra couple of lakhs without a careful A/B listening session. You will have to give them credit too . Even our fellow mate - Square_Wave bought the speaker and preamp only after elabourate A/B comparision (Again 4x or even more)

Why don't we test a DIY loudspeaker (around Rs. 24k as kit) with Abhi's expensive Dynaudio. In the process let's also check out some DIY Amp and Murthy's cable. We need neutral observers and more importantly Abhi must be willing to host us !!

Regards
Siva.

That could be pretty interesting, Siva.
It would be nice if you could take the initiative further & coordinate.

sivat schrieb:

I've made custom speakers for a few folks in Bangalore. It was always after listening to the speaker with another much more expensive (4x and more ..) that they decided to get the speakers made for them. Do you think people will be ready to put out extra couple of lakhs without a careful A/B listening session. You will have to give them credit too . Even our fellow mate - Square_Wave bought the speaker and preamp only after elabourate A/B comparision (Again 4x or even more) Why don't we test a DIY loudspeaker (around Rs. 24k as kit) with Abhi's expensive Dynaudio. In the process let's also check out some DIY Amp and Murthy's cable. We need neutral observers and more importantly Abhi must be willing to host us !! Regards Siva.

Count me in.............

as much as i would have loved to compare my speakers with a commercial setup , i hardly got a week or so to listen to the setup as first it broke down and took me 4 months to get it back running, then 'I damaged' my woofers and the speakers went out of action. In fact they are still waiting to get replacement woofers.

If I were in Bangalore, i would have hosted and we could have compared the whole shebang...DAC, Amp and speakers...


Just hoping that this owuld be repeated again sometime in the future..

sivat schrieb:

Why don't we test a DIY loudspeaker (around Rs. 24k as kit) with Abhi's expensive Dynaudio. In the process let's also check out some DIY Amp and Murthy's cable. We need neutral observers and more importantly Abhi must be willing to host us !! Regards Siva.

Arrey Woah Siva Sir...you have really got me enthused .
I can imagine how the crowd will be...all audiophiles get together to compare equipments!!!

Yes, I am always ready to host such interesting gala audiophile meet..in fact I will be privileged to do so.
Lets make it happen buddies!!!!

The only problem is, I dont have a CDP right now (its sold). My CDP will be arriving next week. Can we have it then ?
In that case you can also evaluate the CDP, how good or bad it is.

What say buddies??

square_wave wrote:

Count me in.............

Hey how can you come......you just fought with me
He he he he...
Just joking...please do try to come over.

abhi.pani schrieb:

The only problem is, I dont have a CDP right now (its sold). My CDP will be arriving next week. Can we have it then ? In that case you can also evaluate the CDP, how good or bad it is.

And a superb CDP it is...wish i had kept it for myself and asked you to take a hike ..for the price you paid and the price it retails for, you got one heck of a steal!!

Savyasaachi schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: The only problem is, I dont have a CDP right now (its sold). My CDP will be arriving next week. Can we have it then ? In that case you can also evaluate the CDP, how good or bad it is. And a superb CDP it is...wish i had kept it for myself and asked you to take a hike ..for the price you paid and the price it retails for, you got one heck of a steal!!

Thanks for controlling all your evil intentions and helping me out buddy

Abhi,

Why don't you bring your speaker to my place...let's do it there - this weekend. Next week, i will be travelling.

Arj, are u going to come...we need more neutral folks to judge the performances of the two system, without which this will be a futile ..

Regards
Siva.

Would love to be part of this..i am a secret admirer of DIY myself

I would suggest we define our criterion with regard to

1. methodology
2. Parameters to be measured/Observed
3. any Instructions on measurement/observations
4. Music pieces/Tracks/albums
5. Any additional Cables/Equipen which may be required
7. Any other points

in advance. this will help us in ensuring that we are all on the same page while doing so.

I can put up an initial list on a new thread itself and can keep modifying it as per all of your sugggestions.

What say ?

sivat schrieb:

Abhi, Why don't you bring your speaker to my place...let's do it there - this weekend. Next week, i will be travelling. Arj, are u going to come...we need more neutral folks to judge the performances of the two system, without which this will be a futile .. Regards Siva.

Ok...we can do that but...promise me you will give me a small demo of your SA-102 with my Dynes !!
Its not for any A/B purpose but just for my curiosity to listen to this pair. I have long been wanting to ask you for this...and now you yourself have invited .

I know you have built a very good tube amp (Arjun and Sudarshan have told me about it)...we will definitely listen to it as well.

In the mean time lets try to see if we can manage to rope-in adequate number of listeners within this short notice period.

Bangalore is rocking!!!!!
Bhagwan Ji...you are the father of this thread...cmon fly down for the event
Ok Ok...I agree that its not Munich, Hongkong or Taiwan ...but your presence will definitely make the event special

This is going to be fun. Rest of Siva’s equipment including cables of a very high quality. And a decent size room too. Right kind of setup to do an A/B.
Arj is as neutral as it gets. Who else ?
I’ll be a casual observer….

Looking forward to the parameters and Tracks Arj. It needs to be judicious mixture of rock, pop, vocals (male – female), classical (western and Indian), Jazz

I am inclined to have more listeners as it will give us a wider perspective of the sonic differences as well as preferences.

abhi.pani schrieb:

sivat schrieb: Why don't we test a DIY loudspeaker (around Rs. 24k as kit) with Abhi's expensive Dynaudio. In the process let's also check out some DIY Amp and Murthy's cable. We need neutral observers and more importantly Abhi must be willing to host us !! Regards Siva. Arrey Woah Siva Sir...you have really got me enthused . I can imagine how the crowd will be...all audiophiles get together to compare equipments!!! Yes, I am always ready to host such interesting gala audiophile meet..in fact I will be privileged to do so. Lets make it happen buddies!!!! The only problem is, I dont have a CDP right now (its sold). My CDP will be arriving next week. Can we have it then ? In that case you can also evaluate the CDP, how good or bad it is. What say buddies?? square_wave wrote: Count me in............. Hey how can you come......you just fought with me He he he he... Just joking...please do try to come over.

What is an audiophiles life without some fights ?

what DIY component is being tested here..the speakers? the amp?, cables? preamp?? please give us a cost wise break up of the DIY version and the commercial version..


Also, we could probably have some kinda rating card in which each listener rates the particular component on a scale of 1 to 10 ..or something similar...that way we can see how each person rated soundstaging, imaging, detials, et al...

Just a thought...that is, If you guys are really serious about it.

Ok guys. Saturday evening @ 6:00pm my place in Jayanagar. Please PM me for address.

Regards
Siva.

sivat schrieb:

Ok guys. Saturday evening @ 6:00pm my place in Jayanagar. Please PM me for address. Regards Siva.

done

I surely will miss this;
Unfortunately we in Mumbai do not have any DIY members;
Hence, we cannot do this. Sad !!!

You guys meet up and have a nice time.

sivat schrieb:

Ok guys. Saturday evening @ 6:00pm my place in Jayanagar. Please PM me for address. Regards Siva.

Hi Siva,
Can we have it on Sunday ?
Saturday would be a bit too hectic for me since I have few other things lined up...it would be too risky since I am the host .

Please do suggest some time on Sunday.

I would prefer Sunday too..Noon/morning both work well for me.

ok folks, could not work on this earlier but here are my thoughts open for constructive additions


Siva would request you to identify 2-4 tracks which have all these compontnts. abhi yiou also have the right to recomend

Low and mid bass, midrange with male and female voices. treble with attack and decay. dynamics, background ambience and immediacy (any live recording should do that) along with tracks that have abundance of low details (jazz in the pawnshop types)


1. methodology

sivas system to be the reference. first step would be the ice-breaker where we setup the position for the 2 speakers under test so that each has its optimal positioning

procedure would be each set ot tracks to be played in the reference system 1-2 times so that we get our ears tuned to that system

thenwe play the same tracks on the 2 speaker sets track by track and note down out points on the sheet provided

2. Parameters to be measured/Observed

Low Bass (Tactile, immediacy and articulation (Control)
Mid Bass : Body and Impact
Lower midrange(male voices): Naturality, lack of chestyness/congestion
Upper midrange (Femals vocals) Clarity, sibilance,captivation, tonality
treble , clarity, attack and decay

Overall characteristics:
Coherance, Tonality and timbre, details, Dynamics, Timing, transparency, soundstaging -3d spatial .



3. any Instructions on measurement/observations
all ears will be caliberated by multiple tracks played in the beginning. so please do not prejudge..just soak in the first session.
Ratings of 1-5 (Low to high) to be given relative to reference
subjective remarks on any emotional/intutive feeling or lack of it also to be put in

4. Music pieces/Tracks/albums

siva this is your baby..since we will be hearing them all so many times limited no of tracks suggested.

would suggest to keep music as mainstream and generic to cover all lisners tastes.



A;ll commetns welcoms. i will keep modifying this post to put in the latest. cutoff time Sat morning.

Ampnut/Manek i remember one of you had once posted on a sheet with a circular diagram which could be utilised for this.. a repost would be highly appreciated.

Can we keep it for Sunday 10:30am.....

Arj schrieb:

4. Music pieces/Tracks/albums siva this is your baby..since we will be hearing them all so many times limited no of tracks suggested. would suggest to keep music as mainstream and generic to cover all lisners tastes.

Arj,

I will request you to bring some CDs too....we will select from the CD that i have too...

Regards
Siva.

Dear Arj,
I have a few suggestions and few queries.

Suggestions:

1. Can we have the ratings from 1-10. I suggest this because this will allow you for a more flexible allocation of points. Since audio can have minute differences so our scale should allow to tap them as well.

2. Since, I believe ratings will be conducted by neutral listeners, lets try to have at least 3 of them. More is better. Else it doesnt give a generic view.

3. Since Siva has postponed the meet to Sunday morning, I suppose we can keep the track selection open till Saturday evening.

Queries:

1. What amplification will we use ? I ask this because the Dynes would require some hefty amplification...without which it defeats our purpose again. I know Siva has good amps at his place but I would suggest we declare it well before hand so that we are clear about the equipments to be used.

2. What about cables ? There is always a chance of mismatch. Do we bring our own ? We can use it if we find a mismatch else we dont use it...what say sir ??

if its the speakers we are testing then everything excluding speaker positioning should be the same..

in case we notice any Non-Synergy due to cables causing a problem we could perhaps change it..but I doubt we will have a problem with Sivas AU24. they do not have any reported "Side effects"

Siva, will your monoblocks run a Dyn Contour ? if not then we may need to use another amp..maybe Abhis plinius or yours ? will go by you on this sir !

points 1-3 all seem fair..anyway i was was thinking that siva, you sW and me would all be rating so that means 4 datapoints. if we have 2 more nothing like it. we can statistically remnove any voring which has a high deviation.

sivat schrieb:

[ Arj, I will request you to bring some CDs too....we will select from the CD that i have too... Regards Siva.

ok will get some of my favourites too.. the timing works good for me

in case we notice any Non-Synergy due to cables causing a problem we could perhaps change it..but I doubt we will have a problem with Sivas AU24. they do not have any reported "Side effects"

Ya, I understand that and I know Siva has good cables...but I have had cables like Siltech failing in my system so..I was a bit cautious.

Siva, will your monoblocks run a Dyn Contour ? if not then we may need to use another amp..maybe Abhis plinius or yours ? will go by you on this sir !

Yes, whatever Siva says. BTW, his SA-102 will surely drive both speakers in the arena..
I can bring over my Plinius Int amp to be used as pre...just a suggestion.

i was was thinking that siva, you sW and me would all be rating so that means 4 datapoints. if we have 2 more nothing like it. we can statistically remnove any voring which has a high deviation.

If we need an unbiased rating...it has to be done by neutral people "IMHO". I am personally not confident if I could rate my speakers in an unbiased manner. That way...out of 4 datapoints 3 are not neutral ....if we are conducting any serious comparison + ratings...it should be done in a pakka manner as we cant repeat such exercises now and then.