Whither This Search For Musical Ecstasy?

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Beitrag

viren
Stammgast

#1 erstellt: 30. Mrz 2006, 19:00

Musical Ecstasy

The title is purposely chosen to emphasize that music listening should be fun. We should all be enjoying music - to that end our equipment is just the means. However, too many of us, along the way, end up listening to equipment.

I have a few years behind me, and hope to share my thoughts with a lot of the younger members of the forum. Each of us has to find his own way to musical satisfaction - I can only point to one.

Somewhere along the line, the audio high end industry has lost its way. Past history and accomplishments are thrown aside, a new language is created to descibe musical phenomena, music is deconstructed to suit this language. Specmanship rules, brute force engineering abounds, with prices to suit. What gets lost in the process - music!

Music listening is a wholesome experience. You cannot deconstruct music - break it down in parts like bass and treble, detail, and solidity of image! Instead, music communicates - emotions, interplay between musicians, melody, and rhythm. Spontaneity, interpretation, suprise changes in rhythm and dynamics, harmony, are all elements of music making. Collectively they all communicate the sense of music.

Listen to live music in a concert hall. Do you concentrate on the quality of the highs and lows, the specificity of the image? No, it's the collective sound of the ensemble, the creativity of music making that astonishes.

It's this essence of music that we should be seeking through our audio systems. It's recognised instinctively and emotionally - no golden ears required! It's this sense that the high end industry has lost.

We now have systems that scream artificial detail to your ears; produce clinical sound with all emotion squeezed out. And an entire industry to promote such sound to unsuspecting consumers. There are alternatives.

Here's one in the words of renowned designer Lynn Olsen : "More so than ever before, I came to realize that the ultimate musicality of a particular amp transcends conventional engineering models. In an audiophile culture fixated on the notion that bigger is better, that more watts equates with better dynamics, the truth is hard to accept. Listen and believe: it's that first watt that makes all the difference in the world. The microdynamics of the music are all encoded in the initial power rush. Get it wrong out of the starting block and another 99 boring watts are hardly going to compensate. That's why a low-powered amp, when mated to a high-efficiency speaker, can actually sound much more dynamic than a conventional high-power amplifier."

Most of the old valve amplifiers still communicate music far better than most modern day solid-state amplifiers. Why were they discarded so easily? Technology rush. For whose benefit?

Please don't loose sight that it's the enjoyment of music we are all after.

Viren.

Arj
Inventar

#2 erstellt: 30. Mrz 2006, 23:59

nice points Viren..moment we start talking of music as a result of scientific and engineering priciples we forget its soul.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#3 erstellt: 31. Mrz 2006, 05:03

Hi Viren,

EXCELLENT piece.

Such reminders are always welcome.

I loved your sign off line :

Please don't loose sight that it's the enjoyment of music we are all after.

Cheers

powersupply
Ist häufiger hier

#4 erstellt: 31. Mrz 2006, 06:35

It's this essence of music that we should be seeking through our audio systems. It's recognised instinctively and emotionally

Viren, excellent writeup. As you said, many are listening to their eqmnts rahter than music.

Manek
Inventar

#5 erstellt: 31. Mrz 2006, 07:31

viren...a man of few words but when he speaks....pearls of wisdom !

manek.

soulforged
Stammgast

#6 erstellt: 31. Mrz 2006, 07:51

Amen!

Prithvi
Stammgast

#7 erstellt: 31. Mrz 2006, 08:41

Very tru viren, excellent write-up. Sadly we all live in today's world ! Atleast few of us can make a change for the better. Just to take ur point seriously, listening to Jacob;s 2nd Rethm with a tube amp has given me so much pleasure out of a system, never experience before. Absolutely the fist watt matters.

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#8 erstellt: 31. Mrz 2006, 12:28

That's why a low-powered amp, when mated to a high-efficiency speaker, can actually sound much more dynamic than a conventional high-power amplifier."

Very true Viren....the sound is still fresh in my mind..MF A 200 class A 50 watter with my 98db Klipsch sounded so good I'm yet to look for a sound like that..I mean nothing more and nothing less than what I need..than anybody would suggest..What say ..or a perfect foot tapper combo

square_wave
Inventar

#9 erstellt: 31. Mrz 2006, 13:08

Yes, we need people like viren to jolt us back to reality once in a while……
Good write up

Shahrukh
Inventar

#10 erstellt: 31. Mrz 2006, 14:48

Put this piece up on your site!

Arj
Inventar

#11 erstellt: 31. Mrz 2006, 20:55

viren, but to some extent this will again fall into the Science Vs Art or the scientist Vs the Spiritualist side of discussion.
to some the quest is ultimate musicality and to some it is not that, they just want the most neutral, transparent and the most accurate system possible so that the source material is represented the way it is.
And of course to some it is collection if brands and to have the best branded music system out there.

Although i personally might not agree with some cases, each person has his/her own reasons (Valid from his/her view point) as to what they like

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#12 erstellt: 31. Mrz 2006, 21:01

Nice piece Viren...exactly what i was trying to convey in the other thread..

however, i don't agree with you on all counts...

but then again i whole heartedly agree that, we do what we do to enjoy music...and that's the bottomline

sivat
Stammgast

#13 erstellt: 01. Apr 2006, 12:34

i think there are two different passion involved here..

Enjoying Music : You are a music buff...and do not really worry about the choice of products available for home-audio. Sit back and enjoy the system, that sounds the best to you within your budget constraints (if any...)

Quest for Perfect Sound : No matter how much money you spend....you cannot completely recreate the magic of Bade Gulam or Ella in your living room. However, it might be your passion to understand why electronics do not match up with Mother Nature and you will contstantly try to create a system that brings it more closer to Nature. This is a never-ending (and different) hobby!!. If you have lots of money you can buy different products and try them....else if money is a constraint - take the DIY route.

You can be one of the following
1) a music fan,
2) or you are intrested only in the quest for perfect sound...
3) or you might be intrested in both.

I guess there is nothing wrong being any of the above. At the same time you must be clear - as to which of the above option reflects your needs.

Option 3 is mostly the danger zone

.. where we all get caught, resulting in confusion.

Cheers
Siva.

[Beitrag von sivat am 01. Apr 2006, 12:36 bearbeitet]

Arj
Inventar

#14 erstellt: 01. Apr 2006, 12:40

sivat schrieb:

Option 3 is mostly the danger zone

.. where we all get caught, resulting in confusion.

Cheers
Siva.

well said siva.. I presume biggest source of this confusion is not knowing which side of the fence one is Actually on (wrt the above categories) but have too much of theoretical information available with no practical expereince resulting is some pretty strange theories

viren
Stammgast

#15 erstellt: 02. Apr 2006, 04:16

Hello all,

Why do people automatically preclude musicality from accuracy? For me, there is absolutely no dilemna.

How can an audio system which is musical also not be true to the recorded music? Any deviation in tonality, timbre, timing, will be heard as an artificial sound. That will certainly not be musical.

Accurate to what? To the music, or to some artificially held notions of frequency response and harmonic distortion?Does a sine wave equate to a complex music signal?

Again, tune your ears to live music. Listen to a performance in a good concert hall. With ensembles of a hundred voices, the dynamics, and the sound levels can be stupendous. Do you come home after that concert with warmth in your heart; or a painfull buzz in your ears?

Try and capture that warmth in your audio system at home. It will make you alive, and want more music to come into your life!

Viren.

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#16 erstellt: 02. Apr 2006, 04:59

viren schrieb:

so true ...so true...
excellent viren!...

sivat
Stammgast

#17 erstellt: 02. Apr 2006, 06:07

viren schrieb:

musicality from accuracy?

How can an audio system which is musical also not be true to the recorded music? Any deviation in tonality, timbre, timing, will be heard as an artificial sound. That will certainly not be musical.

Viren,

Fully agree with you on this. This is why i was referring to "Natrual Sound"...and not a perfect "Sine-Wave".

The fact of the matter is that - it is virtually impossible to recreate this "Musicality" in its original form. Few month's back i hear "Churasia" in a concert..which was very well organized (in terms of equipments). I don't think that - even the most expensive of systems can exactly recreate the trance like experience he put every audience into!!

Atleast i have come across many audiophile's who keep the live performance of an artist as a reference and constatly try to bring thier system more closure to that experience. As you see there are two parts to it....
1) one is that they are first music-lovers and
2) secondly they want to perfect the system further and bring it more closure to real performance.

All that we are saying is that the "second-part" by itself is a respectful hobby/passion....as long you know exactly what you are upto. This is no trivial task....

Mapping the GAP between the real-musicality and the limitations of today's electronics can only be understood by getting to into technical aspects such as Jitter, Timing, Phase Coherence, etc., I love such a technical discussion...and i do not think there is anything wrong about it....as long the target is more realistic "musicality". We are defenitely not talking about better measurements alone. However, you need to note that these measurements do matter in a very big way ..and cannot be ignored.

viren schrieb:

Try and capture that warmth in your audio system at home.

This is okay, as long as you agree to the limitation of your audio system..vis-a-vis the live performance. There are people who are trying to achive this to thier level of satisfaction for over 25-30 years....

(..please do not think that these folks do not understand musicality). This is not as simple as it sounds..

Cheers
Siva.

sivat
Stammgast

#18 erstellt: 02. Apr 2006, 08:24

To explain more about what i refer to as "accurate" in my post on the other thread..

For example, Last week a groupg of us, were listening to various preamp (from respected brands) on a particular system (belonging to a friend of ours). Each preamp has a different perspective on the musicallity. Between them there were small differences in timber of instrument, staging, etc., The weakness of one product, seemed to be the strengh of the other and vice-versa.

At the end of the session...none of could agree which preamp reflected the "true" timber of an instrument. Ofcourse all sounded musical...and seemed correct on its own.

A tube amp, though colored - will sound very musical. But it need not accurately reflect the "true" (natural) timber of an instrument. We can go on arguing on the same.. :D.

This is the beauty of this subject... taking the cure from Stereophile : If One is correct, the other is wrong (i think this was when they compared the Krell with some other valve amplifier)

I'm sure folks like Arj, who constantly listen to various systems, will understand what i'm talking about..

So the lesson from this is...

1) If the system sound "musical" enough ..keep enjoying it
2) But the moment you want to make your system reflect, the true timber and musicallity of a live performance ... you are in trouble

Cheers
Siva.

[Beitrag von sivat am 02. Apr 2006, 08:29 bearbeitet]

Arj
Inventar

#19 erstellt: 02. Apr 2006, 09:11

viren schrieb:

Hello all,

Why do people automatically preclude musicality from accuracy? For me, there is absolutely no dilemna.

Well viren, my thought comes from my expereince (which I confess is not very extensive, and neither do I have golden ears which can differentiate very subtle differences.)

Let me take an example of when I chose my current amp.
I was comparing it with my former Nad 320BEE (with upgraded caps/pSU et al) Vs a chinese tube am (I think it was called Dutonic/duntonic or something)

I particularly remember the case of playing Ray brown- A producers cut CD (Which was apparently converted from DSD)

the double Bass, had a different tone with each amp. it was a bit on the "banjo" side with the Nad, more deep with the duntonic and slightly more forward (but nicer !) with the sugden. of course factors like tightness of bass also were apparent but i was trying to focus only on the tone. there were some other differences which i really cannot recollect now..

But the best part is none of these amps (It was on one of the newer Spendor floorstanders) gave the impression of the real double bass as in Live but each had a different presentation. (And i used to heard it in a wonderful Singapore live Jazz pub in Clarke Quay)

Now musically I had nothing against any of these combinations although each felt different and i liked one amp most of the times, but tonally (accuracy ?) each was different.

But again I had no idea then that double Basses too can sound different based on the maker/brand (as a Jazz afficiando in my office here was telling me !!) or that each player makes it sound different.

So honesly i may not be able to really compare accuracy, but the musicality is something felt while listening, although rating it objectively would again be different, it was obvious as to which amp felt better in the combination (And i am sure i will have the same problem if I were to be a judge in a beauty contest or a singing talent contest !!)

so to me accuracy is something which makes the recording as true to the source as possible and musicality which makes it sound as good as possible.

I'm sure folks like Arj, who constantly listen to various systems, will understand what i'm talking about..

Siva, you give me too much credit .. these days i listen only to my system and once in a while visit some of the local pubs but after a couple of drinks i really only enjoy the music and do not remember what the instruments sounded like to compare them

but am really enjoying the music.. just realised there is so much of music out there to worry about equipment

Arj
Inventar

#20 erstellt: 02. Apr 2006, 09:25

On a different "note" (pun intended with reference to the topic

).

right now i am listening to a piece called "Heres to life" by joe williams, a wonderful jazz vocal, it has a piano piece in it.

now the piano soundstages very well in the middle and sounds very good.. but one of the problems my system has is in managing pianos very well, perhaps due to a room resonance i have at around 50hz and its harmonics.. does it sound accurate - I am pretty sure not. but does it sound good - Yes ! but again, to be honest, will it sound better if the tone were "right".. i really do not know

i have to get the SPL meter out and see if I can need to change the phase settings on my sub for that..

Arj
Inventar

#21 erstellt: 02. Apr 2006, 09:41

sivat schrieb:

Mapping the GAP between the real-musicality and the limitations of today's electronics can only be understood by getting to into technical aspects such as Jitter, Timing, Phase Coherence, etc.,

I have been falling into that trap.. so much that recently added a Monarchy DIP in between my transport and DAC.. system sounds different and hopefully more detailed dur to reduced jitter (Jurys out on that one !)

but then am I enjoying the music more ?
- from an actual musical point of view, i am not sure, but I think it is the same.
-but i do get a kick out of the fact that i have "Reduced" jitter ;)..so that in some way adds to my "enjoyment"

. strange and slightly sad, but true.

1) If the system sound "musical" enough ..keep enjoying it

agree one 100%. if you have begun enjoying the music, just keep enjoying it dont start comparing and analysing.. but keep tweaking away..

Manek
Inventar

#22 erstellt: 03. Apr 2006, 06:53

Arj,

every instrument player as you said makes his own sound from his own instrument. No two instruments from the same manufacturer may sound identical, so trying to find if your system is accurate to the tone/timbre of the instruments is a near impossibility.

and how would you know if a system is true to the source ? we also havent heard the original recording session or the master....One way would be to hear it on higher end equipment and see how close your system gets...but who is to confidently say that the higher end system is true to the source or closer to the original event?
Thats another dilema I usually face from time to time.....

Manek.

square_wave
Inventar

#23 erstellt: 03. Apr 2006, 12:44

The question of “what’s natural” has always been a difficult one. But I guess with experience one picks up the talent to differentiate between a reasonably neutral speaker to an unnatural one. I guess listening to un-amplified instruments helps too. From what I have heard, when you listen to a reasonably natural sounding system you somehow know it is natural because you have been listening to natural sounds all your life around you and your ears and senses have adapted to it. Somehow your ear like your eyes develops the ability to differentiate. I do not know how to put it into words but when you hear un-natural, your senses and your ears start getting irritated and fatigued and “you know” and when you hear something natural, your ears will automatically take to it and your senses and ears will relax and you will know it.
I am so used to hearing the choir at the church with the accompanying organ music. Now I know how it sounds without amplification. When I visited, Jacob George’s studio, he played a track of the same, on his second rethms and I suddenly felt the hairs on my hand raising and my senses relaxing to something recreated almost exactly like the real one. I felt I was standing in the church listening to an un-amplified choir. Although I have not listened to the same choir who performed, in the track, I knew it was real because my brain suddenly relaxed into the music and I just closed my eyes and sat there transfixed till the end of the track.
I can’t explain technically how it works, but it does and you know when it does.

viren
Stammgast

#24 erstellt: 03. Apr 2006, 18:21

Precisely!

You react instinctively to naturally reproduced sound, especially sounds you encounter in your daily lives - that of human voices. Familiarity with acoustic live music does the same.

Another measure of good reproduced music is the amount of effort your brain has to make to listen. If the music flows around you, envelops you, you get drawn in, your body relaxes, and the pleasure hormones kick in - then the system is doing its job well. You needn't get any more technical than that!

Viren.

Manek
Inventar

#25 erstellt: 04. Apr 2006, 06:16

To take off from what viren wrote....a verse from a song by ellington...this song probably sums it up for me as to what I want to look for in my audio system and goes like this....

What good is melody....
What good is music.....
If it ain't possessin' something sweet ?
But it ain't the melody......
And it ain't the music.......
There's something else that makes the tune complete.....
It dont mean a thing if it ain't got that swing !

All other audiophile aspects of audio systems for me are secondary....

Manek.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#26 erstellt: 04. Apr 2006, 07:20

While most of us writing in clearly prefer the 'music' as a whole, the voting, ironically, even as messages kept comming in in support of the musical, foot-tapping whole, the vote piled up the other way, in favour of speaker accuracy ....

square_wave
Inventar

#27 erstellt: 04. Apr 2006, 07:23

Very well put viren and manek.
As you mature in this hobby, it takes systems with better resolution and natural musicality to draw you into it, rest gets boring and irritating. To achieve this people go into different directions depending on their music tastes and personal preferences. Some go the “high efficiency single driver and set amp” route while some may prefer ribbon speakers and some may want electrostatics/hybrids and some have succeeded with low efficiency dynamic speakers with monstrous SS power amps. Well, the routes are endless but I guess it is better to find out which camp one belongs to early in this hobby.

Arj
Inventar

#28 erstellt: 04. Apr 2006, 07:23

Amp_Nut schrieb:

that actually represents the Paradox in this Hobby

square_wave
Inventar

#29 erstellt: 04. Apr 2006, 07:35

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Yes amp_nut. The voting is clearly in favor of the first option. But then again it says”The cleanest and most natural for the given budget”. I guess it includes the musical ones too. One surprising thing I noticed is the absence of even a single vote for option 3. I have noticed that quite a few “first purchases” by enthusiasts belong to this category. They want a reasonable amount of accuracy but do not want to sacrifice too much on the “ loudness factor “ but as you can see, nobody has voted for this at all. I wonder !!!!

sivat
Stammgast

#30 erstellt: 04. Apr 2006, 17:32

Manek schrieb:

every instrument player as you said makes his own sound from his own instrument. No two instruments from the same manufacturer may sound identical, so trying to find if your system is accurate to the tone/timbre of the instruments is a near impossibility.

Getting to this level of accuracy is next to impossible. Agreed.

There are few instruments like Sax,Violin, that are relatively easy to reproduce with satisfactory accuracy of timber.

So far so good..

But the problem is in few specific instruments like Bansuri, Harmonica, Trumpet, Double-Bass, etc. Getting a system to reproduce these instruments to - even an accpetable level is a challenging task. For examples, your system's dynamics must be the very best possible...to reproduce Harmonica to an acceptable level. Another example...Trumpet will sound more like a SAX or clarinet on some systems (while overall sound is still musical and very satisfactory).

If you are intrested in knowing whether your system is reproducing the timber, any where close to reality...call musicians (folks who play instruments like flute, harmonica) to check your system. It really helps.

Great discussion guys...it's really fun. Thanks Viren for starting this thread.

Cheers
Siva.

Arj
Inventar

#31 erstellt: 04. Apr 2006, 19:48

Adding on to Sivas note, Personally I check out the Piano, the Double Bass and the Tabla !

The tabla should have the thump as well as one should be able to feel the difference in the timbre when different areas in the tabla is hit (It should not be a 1 tone thump)

A good album is Tabala Tarang . you have a circle of tablas and the master (I dont remember his name but it features Trilok gurtu as well) sitting in the center and playing them. if your soundstaging is good you should be able to feel which tabla is being played and also notice the difference!

The double Bass.. this should have the deep complex sound as well as that tactile feeling of a giant string being Pulled and vibrating. It definitely should not sound like a guitar !

The pianos attack and the decay needs to be sharp and clear (I find this very difficult to get right in most systems)even my present system smears this slightly

Siva you brought about a another good instrument ie the Bansuri !. on a good system that too should give you the feeling of air passing thru the pipe ! the sound is not one note but has a large number of different frequencies/ harmonics.

[Beitrag von Arj am 04. Apr 2006, 19:51 bearbeitet]

viren
Stammgast

#32 erstellt: 04. Apr 2006, 20:01

Starting this topic, in part, was a reaction to all the requests that come in to this forum for selecting components. And comparing them in terms of bass response, loudness, soundstaging and all. I feel we should be talking instead about how enjoyable, and real, music was from one system to another.

And do look at audio systems as a whole. I know it is difficult when you are upgrading a component, but the only meaningful way is to judge components together in a system.

Here's another interesting item that follows the path of this discussion :

In the March 2006 issue of Stereophile, Art Dudley reviews the Yamamoto A-08 power amplifier. This is a valve SET amp made by Yamamoto Sound Craft of Japan. Let me paraphrase Art: "The Yamamoto A-08 was fun to have, fun to use, fun to look at, fun to swap tubes in and out of, and, most of all, fun to listen to. ... The Yamamoto A-08 is a fine alternative to dense, boring, unmusical high-end audio products. It stands with other handcrafted amplifiers in its aspiration to transmit the soul of music by embodying some of the soul of its maker. That's all there is to it, really: It has soul."

And here's John Atkinson's take on it in the Measurements section: " The spectrum of distortion is heavily second-harmonic, though at low frequencies, odd-order harmonics are also apparent. ... The A-08 performed dismally on the high-frequency intermodulation test... I don't think I need say anything more about the Yamamoto A-08's measured performance. It does look very handsome and it is beautifully made."

Whose take would you take home with you?

Viren.

ckn
Ist häufiger hier

#33 erstellt: 04. Apr 2006, 20:26

Guys,

To take the discussion away slightly from the "heavy" vein that it has followed so far....muscial extasy is:

- Listening to Keith Moon at his best in Quadrophenia

- Listening to the beautiful melody of the piano in "Love, rain on me" (same album as afore) and "Riders on a storm"

- Listening to Ian Anderson play the acoustic part and sing within Thick as a Brick...or Mother Goose.....or his fantastic composition in Budapest....

- Listening to super jammin' in "all is bliss" in Shakti live.......

and so on.....

(forgive me for digressing....I have been enjoying my new system....)

You can all get back to the more cerebral discussion now!

Cheers
CKN

Arj
Inventar

#34 erstellt: 04. Apr 2006, 20:59

Viren , thou doth it again

Its a perfect example of this duality !

Funnily I had asked some folks for opinions on my amp before buying it and as per them the Single ended Class A sugden a21a brings in second harmonic distortion of a high order and colours the music and is not the last word in accuracy !!!
boy am i glad i did not listen to them

viren schrieb:

In the March 2006 issue of Stereophile, Art Dudley reviews the Yamamoto A-08 power amplifier. This is a valve SET amp made by Yamamoto Sound Craft of Japan. Let me paraphrase Art: "The Yamamoto A-08 was fun to have, fun to use, fun to look at, fun to swap tubes in and out of, and, most of all, fun to listen to. ... The Yamamoto A-08 is a fine alternative to dense, boring, unmusical high-end audio products. It stands with other handcrafted amplifiers in its aspiration to transmit the soul of music by embodying some of the soul of its maker. That's all there is to it, really: It has soul."

And here's John Atkinson's take on it in the Measurements section: " The spectrum of distortion is heavily second-harmonic, though at low frequencies, odd-order harmonics are also apparent. ... The A-08 performed dismally on the high-frequency intermodulation test... I don't think I need say anything more about the Yamamoto A-08's measured performance. It does look very handsome and it is beautifully made."

sivat
Stammgast

#35 erstellt: 05. Apr 2006, 04:02

Viren,

At the end of the day, hi-end audio is all about

"What you cannot miss and What you do not mind compromising"

This why, i'm always afraid of recommending a system to friends....it's really someone's personal taste.

Yes, Valve amp sounds musical .. over most solid-state ones. In my opinion, they negate the bad effects of digital music to some extent. However, they need not accurately reproduce the timber of a specific instrument...and i do not think one should bother about this, unless they are intrested in the science part of it.

I do not think every one wants to wear the hat of both “connoisseur” and a “scientist”. You choose either of the two

So enjoy the music.

Cheers
Siva.

[Beitrag von sivat am 05. Apr 2006, 04:14 bearbeitet]

square_wave
Inventar

#36 erstellt: 05. Apr 2006, 17:07

sivat schrieb:

"What you cannot miss and What you do not mind compromising"

Very true !
Just like choosing a woman

purnendu
Stammgast

#37 erstellt: 06. Apr 2006, 18:42

Hi All,
I love music, which is why I got into audio I guess. But the idea that audio is a 'hobby' is not in the least true, in fact calling it so is to my mind something of a slur upon it. It is more I would say in the nature of a cult, with its own set of mysteries, its fetish objects, its high priests and its devoted followers. I quite enjoy the membershp of this cult and seek the company of fellow worshippers, without any need to justify the rationality of my beliefs. I do believe that the first time you learn to recognise the difference between amps or between cables is a moment of revelation of childlike discovery. It is a deep mystery beyond the comprehension of those who are not part of our cult. I am not sure if there is a completely rational basis to audio, but then I am not sure if there is one to music either.

To play the devils advocate let me ask my friend Viren and those who agree with him whether indeed live music should be our reference. A Jazz concert with all of them blasting through Ahuja loudspeakers, A concert with Jasraj clinging to the microphone, mumbling into the blessed thing. Most concerts in India are utterly dishonest soundwise. A good recording is any day better. One more thing. There is a good case for recorded music because it allows you to listen again and again and understand a piece of music better and better. I can now recognise the baton of Klemprer and distinguish it from a Bruno Walter or Karajan. Would it be possible if I did not have heard them thousands of times. Mind you I am musically completely illiterate. There is a lot to enjoying audio for its own sake, although like in any other cults individual memebers can go to excess. This is where High Priests like Viren have to come in and call for moderation, and remind everyone of the first principles of the faith. LONG LIVE AUDIO FANATICISM

Arj
Inventar

#38 erstellt: 06. Apr 2006, 21:11

purnendu, youve got the bug really bad !!

but regarding live shows...its the unamplified ones one must use as reference

and I am not aware of anything like that in India yet..

Manek
Inventar

#39 erstellt: 07. Apr 2006, 07:06

Arj, there are a few unamplified ones done in Mumbai at NCPA...

viren
Stammgast

#40 erstellt: 09. Apr 2006, 12:05

Ah Purnendu,

The bait is cast!

This search is far from being a cult, though it does have it's share of irrationality (as against the scientific method). We are all guilty of indulging in it!

Music making is creative - it's art! It's part drama, since it's enacted by humans in front of you. What sounds emerge are solely through the collective efforts of the musicians there. There is a certain charge, a flow of energy, to this creative effort; which is sometimes reciprocated by the audience. By being present at the event, you participate in it. You live in it!

This charge is missing when you listen to a recording of the performance. The act of creation is done, the music is laid bare in front of you, the sense of anticipation is gone. Not totally, but substantially diminished. How can a recording come close to the actual performance!

But, irrational beings that we are, if we can get a sense of that energy, that involvement, in the recording, our stupid brains transport us to the actual event. Vicariously, we participate once again.

And, it's the job of good audio systems to help take us there. By golly, these systems do exist! You just have to seek them!

Viren.

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#41 erstellt: 10. Apr 2006, 06:55

I had the good fortune of lsitening to the chicago symphony orchestra. Actually they played a little known composer called rameau a piece called symphonic suite from nais . It was sublime. We were lost in it for half an hour ...... :-) :-)

Shahrukh
Inventar

#42 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 12:34

http://www.stereophile.com/thinkpieces/300audiophilia/

Something I read in this month's stereophile.

purnendu
Stammgast

#43 erstellt: 12. Apr 2006, 17:17

Thanks Shahrukh,
That is a nice piece. There is a internet mag called La Folia its editor goes by the name of Silvertone. The guy is 70 years old runs a Mark Levinson set up and is really quite interesting.Some of his stuff takes up this question that all of us face from time to time. Are we music lovers or equipment geeks. I really dont have an answer because there is both in me. Its possible to love music without being an equipment enthusiast and its possible to be very sophisticated about kit and have rather 'poor' musical taste. My personal experience is that development in musical appreciation can definitely be enhanced by good kit. That ultimately is the only justification for our indulgences. However there is more to it than simply a matter of musical and economic justication to audio. This is the the question/s that Silvertone explores with style, wit and insight. Have a look.
Purnendu