Can I use UPS for Protection of my Stereo

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Autor
Beitrag
abhi.pani
Inventar
#1 erstellt: 15. Jul 2006, 20:08
Hi Guys,
Please advise me whether I can go for a UPS (600VA) for my exsisting Stereo Setup. My amp consumes just about 200VA and my CDP may not consume more than 50VA, so I still have a lot of headroom left with the UPS.
A servo stabilizer would cost nothing short of 5k and I am currently too tight to afford one. Another option is to go for a Electronic Stabilizer (which is better than normal stabs) which would cost me 2k for a 1KVA capacity but I was thinking if a UPS would be the best option here because cost wise it would be around 2k, they can also give some power backup and they have some good circuitry inside to protect our PCs (which are quite vulnerable to Power fluctuations) so can I go for it now ? Are there any adverse affects of using a UPS in Stereo ? I havent seen many people opting for it...I wonder why ??

Cmon guys throw your comments soon so that I can secure my electronics asap.
square_wave
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 16. Jul 2006, 12:40
I don't think there is any issue as long as your ups is rated enough to handle instantaneous peaks in voltage demands.


[Beitrag von square_wave am 16. Jul 2006, 12:40 bearbeitet]
Savyasaachi
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 16. Jul 2006, 15:39
hey buddy,

You can go ahead with a UPS..
am using one..a supposedly sine wave one...no problems whatsoever..
Saw it in action...am able to play my HT even when the power goes out ...
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 16. Jul 2006, 18:28


Savyasaachi said:
am using one..a supposedly sine wave one...no problems whatsoever..




A UPS ( Un-interruptible Power Supply) Creates 240VAC fro0m a DC (rechargable battery ) power source.

Since its MUCh easier, and MUCH MOPRE efficient to generate a Square Ware, than a Sine wave ( Our electrical supply is a 50 Hz SINE Wave ) 90% of UPS deliver a SQUARE WAVE.

A SMPS ( Switched Mode Power Supply ) typically powers Most Computers, and computer monitors.

An SMPS works Equally happy, when a fed a Sine Wave or a Square wave. .... Great for USP manufacturers.... they make Square Wave UPSs.

However, Most Hi Fi do not use switching supplys. The regular, Linear, 50Hz transformer based Power Supplys, HATE anything less than a Perfect, Pure Sine wave.

A square wave isabsolutely phoo-phoo...

Not only will it reflect in the sound, but will will overheat and ultimately blow the transformer in your equipment....

Hence, if you are using a UPS for your stereo, make 100% sure its a Sine wave UPS.

If iyt is, you are fine.... If not, your stereo is TOAST


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 16. Jul 2006, 18:45 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#5 erstellt: 16. Jul 2006, 18:37


am using one..a supposedly sine wave one...no problems whatsoever..




I hate to say this Savyasaachi....

But me thinks that your UPS is Not really a Sine Wave UPS.

THAT is what has smoked your Transformer(s) due to overheating from the square wave harmonics...

It WILL do the same to the new ones as well, whether you fit a single of multiple transformers....
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#6 erstellt: 16. Jul 2006, 19:00

Amp_Nut schrieb:


am using one..a supposedly sine wave one...no problems whatsoever..




I hate to say this Savyasaachi....

But me thinks that your UPS is Not really a Sine Wave UPS.

THAT is what has smoked your Transformer(s) due to overheating from the square wave harmonics...

It WILL do the same to the new ones as well, whether you fit a single of multiple transformers.... :(



good catch, Amp_Nut!
I'm with you on this one: these guys use UPSs & don't realize the consequences!!

Abhijit wrote: "I havent seen many people opting for it...I wonder why ??"
Hmmm...... now you know why Abhijit?

Also: "Cmon guys throw your comments soon so that I can secure my electronics asap."

don't treat us like Ramu who works in your household kitchen! This is a forum where all of us discuss audio & we are NOT obligated to ensure that your electronics is kept running smoothly! We are not supposed to be jummping when you say we should. Try to understand this & respect the people on the forum for this. It's not your personal electronics fix-it shop. OK?
Savyasaachi
Inventar
#7 erstellt: 16. Jul 2006, 20:53

bombaywalla schrieb:

Amp_Nut schrieb:


am using one..a supposedly sine wave one...no problems whatsoever..




I hate to say this Savyasaachi....

But me thinks that your UPS is Not really a Sine Wave UPS.

THAT is what has smoked your Transformer(s) due to overheating from the square wave harmonics...

It WILL do the same to the new ones as well, whether you fit a single of multiple transformers.... :(



good catch, Amp_Nut!
I'm with you on this one: these guys use UPSs & don't realize the consequences!!


Hey man..don't jump ur gun ..

U seem to make assumptions and quick judgements on people..
i suggest that u CAN it...If u have to say something do so while not making it personal..
U don't have to be so caustic about it.
And what the hell do u know about my UPS..
have u taken a look at it?
People like u are real jokers.
They think they can say anyhting and get away with it..
Am really pissed...
Teh nerve of some people...


[Beitrag von Savyasaachi am 16. Jul 2006, 20:59 bearbeitet]
viren
Stammgast
#8 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 06:08
Hello all,

I would caution against using a UPS for your stereo system. Most UPS's do not give perfect sine waves, and are actually electrically very noisy. This is fine for a computer SMPS supply, but not for an analog amplifier supply.

The bigger objection is that UPS's are not meant for dynamic loads. They work fine for computers because the load there is fairly steady. Try hooking up your printer also to the UPS, and turn it on. The sudden draw in current will certainly strain the UPS. So, if you want to listen to music gently in the background, a UPS may work. But, to reproduce the full dynamics of music, with its tremendous demands on power, the UPS will fizzle out.

Viren.
Manek
Inventar
#9 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 07:00
use a stabilizer.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#10 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 07:43

bombaywalla schrieb:

Amp_Nut schrieb:


am using one..a supposedly sine wave one...no problems whatsoever..




I hate to say this Savyasaachi....

But me thinks that your UPS is Not really a Sine Wave UPS.

THAT is what has smoked your Transformer(s) due to overheating from the square wave harmonics...

It WILL do the same to the new ones as well, whether you fit a single of multiple transformers.... :(



good catch, Amp_Nut!
I'm with you on this one: these guys use UPSs & don't realize the consequences!!

Abhijit wrote: "I havent seen many people opting for it...I wonder why ??"
Hmmm...... now you know why Abhijit?

Also: "Cmon guys throw your comments soon so that I can secure my electronics asap."

don't treat us like Ramu who works in your household kitchen! This is a forum where all of us discuss audio & we are NOT obligated to ensure that your electronics is kept running smoothly! We are not supposed to be jummping when you say we should. Try to understand this & respect the people on the forum for this. It's not your personal electronics fix-it shop. OK? :{


Mr.Bombaywalla,
What Man, fought with your wife or something ?? Or are you sick ? Or is it your attitude (which stinks) ?? Whatever it is, you need some treatment....Dont lose your dignity so cheaply dude...
BTW I have always respected this forum and its members (except for those who dont deserve it), dont have to learn anything from a sick man.
People who understood my concern have replied with the right spirit...I am grateful to them.
square_wave
Inventar
#11 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 07:51
How about an online ups which generates a clean sinewave ? Just a theoretical question. I know somebody who use a 5kva online ups with no problem whatsoever.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 07:54


How about an online ups which generates a clean sinewave ?


VERY few of these available. But if available, it would be IDEAL
Bibs
Ist häufiger hier
#13 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 09:10
Hi Manek,
You mentioned that a stabiliser can be used. What kind of stabiliser? Will it protest against surges?
Regards,
Bibs
SUNILYO
Stammgast
#14 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 10:18
I think you can use a stabilizer along with a surge/spike protected power strip. That should cure the surge problem.
Manek
Inventar
#15 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 11:04
bibs,
Use a servo stabilizer with an isolation transformer. The so called spike busters available in the market do anything but protect against spikes

Manek.
SUNILYO
Stammgast
#16 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 11:07
Hey Manek,

BTW what is an isolation transformer. and how much will it cost ? actually i myself am looking for a stab for my system. this is for my knowledge.
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#17 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 11:24
Hi All,

How about a V-Guard stabiliser with Spike buster?? I mean as a temporary before a Servo comes in place. Hi Bombaywalla come back dude ..
Manek
Inventar
#18 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 12:05
Savyasaachi
Inventar
#19 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 13:46
hmmm..

I have a question here..
what i want to know is that are you people saying that powering the system solely through a UPS when there is no power is harmful...

or is it also harmful even when the power is present but for the fact that the UPS is present in the chain it wil convert the sine wave to a square wave??

does the second scenario take place...?
or is it only the former that we need to be wary of?
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#20 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 14:05
An 'On Line' UPS, operates Continiously, by converting the incomming AC to DC and then reconverting it to AC again.

Such a device will effectively:

1. Convert Good AC Sine wave power to Lousy Square waves, Even When The Mains Is On.

2. When the mains fails, it takes DC power and converts it to (lousy / dirty ) square wave power.

You are correct ... you loose Both times
Manek
Inventar
#21 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 14:39
BTW online UPS systems do give good sine wave output but they cost a bomb. Stuff like Emerson does it.
Manek.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#22 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 17:08


BTW online UPS systems do give good sine wave output but they cost a bomb. Stuff like Emerson does it.


Yes, they do provide a quasi sine wave ( step approvximation - often 10 steps, which eliminates harmonics BELOW 500 Hz )

I worked at Nelco R&D for quite sometime ( along with Behram ).

That section has now spun off as Tata - Leibert..


Also forgot to add... An OFFLINE UPS kicks in ONLY wjhen the mains power fails, so will provide you sinewave power, when the Mains supply is present, because the Off Line UPS is typically in a 'Sleep' mode when the mains power is ON.

The UPS used to power Fans & lights in homes when the Mains has failed, are always Offline.

However, those where an appliance is permanently plugged in to the UPS, is usually an OnLine UPS.

An Online UPS provides an instant transition.... critical for the computer, or it will reboot !

The Offline takes a second or so to kick in.
juggy_25
Ist häufiger hier
#23 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 18:05
So Amp Nut, whats the best way to protect the hifi equipment?
Would a Servo Stabilizer and Power Conditioner do?
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#24 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 18:47
Fortunately for me, I live in Mumbai, and enjoy the country's most stable power.

Hence little experience...

Me thinks that a Servo Stabiliser is the best option, after, ofcourse a sine wave On Line UPS....

However, given our Zero to infinity Voltage swings, the ONLY way to 100% protect the Hi Fi, is to unplug it..
Savyasaachi
Inventar
#25 erstellt: 17. Jul 2006, 19:09
well,
just had a look at my bills and the UPS brochure..
They claim it to be Sine wave,..and that was the only reason i went for it..
IT is specifically made for audio ssytems, TV, Microwaves..and stuff..

I paid 25k for it..
Nonetheless, i will be visiting his place and confirm it again by asking him to show me the o/p on a scope.
TROJAN_HORSE
Gesperrt
#26 erstellt: 19. Jul 2006, 11:49
Dear SavyaSachi,

Where did you buy your UPS and what make is it??
Arj
Inventar
#27 erstellt: 19. Jul 2006, 14:15

Savyasaachi schrieb:
well,
just had a look at my bills and the UPS brochure..
They claim it to be Sine wave,..and that was the only reason i went for it..
IT is specifically made for audio ssytems, TV, Microwaves..and stuff..

I paid 25k for it..
Nonetheless, i will be visiting his place and confirm it again by asking him to show me the o/p on a scope.


do it with a load. under no load conditions it might put a pure sine wave.. but put a varying load (Like a RLC) and then try to see how it distorts !

BTW.. is the UPS output always out of a Battery or does the Battery take up only when the power fails ? in case of the former, if you have a low power amp, then you might get good benefits out of it


[Beitrag von Arj am 19. Jul 2006, 14:16 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#28 erstellt: 19. Jul 2006, 14:33


do it with a load. under no load conditions it might put a pure sine wave.. but put a varying load (Like a RLC) and then try to see how it distorts !


May be tough simulating an RLC load in the shop.

Atlest connect a regular bulb ( or Bulbs ) and check the waveform, probably by first stepping down the UPS output voltage, with a 240 VAC to 6 VAC ( or any other suitable) mains transformer.
kspv
Ist häufiger hier
#29 erstellt: 21. Jul 2006, 22:05
Aren't reliable pure-sinewave UPS available from different brands in the markets these days? I thought they were, from A.P.C., Sukam, Liebert, Emerson Power, and several other companies! Even some Bangalore based companies manufacture pure-sinewave, true-online UPS from 20 K onwards.

I am not talking here of the "modified square-wave" or the "approximated sinewave" UPS types with which our home PCs run comfortably. I am speaking strictly of "better than wall power" pure-sinewave UPS. Since Saachi spent handsomely for the UPS in question (25K), there is a reason to believe that it is pure-sinewave.

Or, are there any other (technical) issues here?
kspv
Ist häufiger hier
#30 erstellt: 21. Jul 2006, 22:10
By the way, I purchased an 800 VA pure-sinewave APC UPS, and am planning to use it sometime for music (I have so far not used it for the said purpose). Hence the interest. I was adamant on the "pure-sinewave" part and rejected the less costly alternatives while buying.
juggy_25
Ist häufiger hier
#31 erstellt: 21. Jul 2006, 23:12
what are the advantages of a UPS over a Servo stabilizer? Which is recommended for the HT equipment?
abhi.pani
Inventar
#32 erstellt: 22. Jul 2006, 04:44

kspv schrieb:
Aren't reliable pure-sinewave UPS available from different brands in the markets these days? I thought they were, from A.P.C., Sukam, Liebert, Emerson Power, and several other companies! Even some Bangalore based companies manufacture pure-sinewave, true-online UPS from 20 K onwards.

I am not talking here of the "modified square-wave" or the "approximated sinewave" UPS types with which our home PCs run comfortably. I am speaking strictly of "better than wall power" pure-sinewave UPS. Since Saachi spent handsomely for the UPS in question (25K), there is a reason to believe that it is pure-sinewave.

Or, are there any other (technical) issues here?


Hi Kspv,
As far as I understood from the discussion in this thread, its not only the sine wave Vs square wave thing but also the dynamic power thats limited in a UPS. As some of the members have suggested that at low volumes it would sound fine but at higher volumes the sound may get compressed becuse of inadequate dynamic power. Thats the reason a servo stab would be a better option IMO.
sivat
Stammgast
#33 erstellt: 24. Jul 2006, 13:41
Use a Servo to protect your valuable equipment...but be prepared to lose out on sound quality. All most all Servo will affect the sound ... i've tried so many of them.

Online UPS is still the best option. But you should try to get UPS that generates Pure-Sine-Wave (PWM)....not those UPS generates quasi-sine-wave (PWC).

Such ideal UPS are available only from very handful of companies and are quite expensive.

Cheers
Siva.
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