Sonic character of 845 valve

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Autor
Beitrag
sivat
Stammgast
#1 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 06:50
Hi folks,

Is 845 a good valve compared to other more popular valves such as EL34, KT88, 300B, etc.,

It would be great to hear opinion from people who heard this valve.

Bhagwan, Deaf, Sfx and others from Mumbai...do share your thoughts on this.

I know that the Cadence EL34 amp sounds very good...how does it compare to thier 845 based amp...what is the sonic difference...feedback from those who have heard these two amp will be very useful information.

Regards
Siva.


[Beitrag von sivat am 10. Aug 2007, 06:51 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 07:50
For whatever its worth.....

1. I dont think much of the EL-34 to deliver the kind of music I listen to ... ROCK. I have found the EL-34 to deliver a glossy / silky sound, lacking in bite and punch. ( I know, I know, these are TERRIBLE generalised statements ).

I think this valave finds favour with Western Classical music fans who prefer a smooth ( sanitised ? ) sound, where the Violins are "silky smooth & never edgy ). Unfortunately, live violins just dont sound that way to me....

The EL-34s also have relatively lower power.

The KT-88s have bite and Punch... sometimes a bit too much bite... IMHO, the KT-88s ROCK !

The 6550s seem to provide the best of the EL-34s and the KT-88s.

Based on my rantings about the EL-34, its hardly surprising that I do Not like the Cadence EL-34 based amp. It, IMHO personifies everything that I have said about the EL-34 tube.

The 845 amp from Cadence - WOW ! WOW ! and WOW !

1st WOW ! for the Looks.

2nd WOW ! for the sound

3rd WOW! for the price
( a pair of Monmoblocks is Rs 4L or is it Rs 6 Lakhs + almost 20% tax ... )

The 845 Tube is Great, and can deliver LOTS of power, something that my inefficient speakers would LOVE.

I am told that some amp designs using the 845 produce an un-refined sound, but the Cadence Monoblocks are Superb.

Now if I could get a reasonably priced 845 ...


Just my opiniated 2 cents
Arj
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 07:58
Amp nut ji that wa a good post especially for us tube novices

the only 845 I have heard is Sivas own and if i was not told about it, i might have thought it was something like a Krell thumping away..there was definitely nothing laid back about them !


[Beitrag von Arj am 10. Aug 2007, 07:58 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 09:27
Hello Siva,

Is your 845 based Power amp available commercially ?

I would be interested !

Please let me know.

Thanks !
square_wave
Inventar
#5 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 09:38

Arj schrieb:
Amp nut ji that wa a good post especially for us tube novices

the only 845 I have heard is Sivas own and if i was not told about it, i might have thought it was something like a Krell thumping away..there was definitely nothing laid back about them !


Correctly put. Nothing laid back about them……The 845’s rock.
It was a shock for me too. Totally different from what I expected from a valve amp. Recently I was at a local rock /Jazz show by a very promising band from Mumbai. Minimal amplification. I was reminded of siva’s monoblock setup.
bhagwan69
Inventar
#6 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 10:07
Hello Sivat !

My knowledge on Tubes is rather poor;
I am a SS man.

However, I have listened to a fair amount of tube gear.
I have never loved tubes, so my opinions should not count;
All be it, I still have an opinion on the Cadence & other Tubed products.

I will comment on the Cadence VA 1.

It is a nice amplifier. Although the asthetics have been 'inspired' from Unison Research, it is an ingenous design, SS driver Stage & Tube Output stage.
It works well with Cadence Speakers.

The Canasya is a great amplifier. The best CFM amp in the world - period. What it can do and what it gives to you and that too at a free price of US $'s 10/- K is nothing short od a miracle.
08 X 845 tubes - 50 watts pure class A etc. etc.
A serious product. I personally like the 'looks' of this amp a lot !!!

I will discuss the sonics on both these amps in another post.
sivat
Stammgast
#7 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 10:54

Amp_Nut schrieb:
For whatever its worth.....

2nd WOW ! for the sound



Amp_Nut,

can you please explain more .... what is the difference you observed compared to the Cadence EL34 based amp.

What words will you use to characterize the sound of 845 amp..

Regards
Siva.
sivat
Stammgast
#8 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 10:55

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Hello Siva,

Is your 845 based Power amp available commercially ?

I would be interested !

Please let me know.

Thanks !


Sorry... No.

But i can help you...if you decide to build one for yourself

Regards
Siva.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#9 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 11:05
Siva Said :



But i can help you...if you decide to build one for yourself


Sir ! That is a VERY GENEROUS Offer ! I would like to take up that offer.

How would you like to proceed ? What next ???
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#10 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 11:35


can you please explain more .... what is the difference you observed compared to the Cadence EL34 based amp.

What words will you use to characterize the sound of 845 amp..


The El-34 based Cadence VA-1 is what I have said about the tube. Yes, I agree that it works well with the Cadence Electrostat speakers, replaying classical music, and maybe even to some extent... rock.

The Cadence speakers are pretty efficient and the VA-1 puts out 20 Watts I think. At its asking price of approx Rs 80K ? ) I would not term it as VFM ( Value For Money) .

The 845 Amps... before I heard this one... I was warned were Crude sounding - typically Public address amplifiers, of the Valve World. I was told that Theatres in the years gone by, used these beasts, that often were very forgiving of shorted output wires and the like. Ideal for theatre applications, where " The show Must Go On " .. Literally.

I have been trying to find such an amp, and modifying / redesigning it, for audiophile applications. I was told i could get one cheap for about Rs 10 K. Have Never found one. If some one knows a source, please tell.

Some Chinese products have appeared on the net... for 50 watts. Dont know it they will ever reach me if I ordered one..


The Cadence 845 IS an Audiophile product. NO DOUBT about it.

It IS transparent, and detailed, without lending much of its own signature to it. In all fairnessm, I have not A/B ed it with another power amp, but the 2 systems that I have heard it in, were Both Top Notch.

The Power amp ( and the rest of the system ) easily resolved cables, the Chord & Nagra DACs, etc.

The sound was tight... just like Solid State, had slamm, but still did not sound Synthetic or Hi-Fi ish, though I suspect a slight Hi-Fi tint lurking in the background. Cant really attribute it to the Power Amp alone, since I have not heard the rest of the systems without the 845 based Power Amp.

The 845 was like a well groomed Big Brother to the KT88 based 45 Watt Prima Luna amp that I have at home. But the 200 Watts per channel brought Bass weight and transient slamm that no KT-88 can hope to deliver.

It was also much more refined than my $1,000 45 Watt KT-88 integrated. the treble was there, neither recessed nor drawing attentiobn to itself. The sound was pretty seamless.

The amp was also pretty silent.

In many ways it sounds so much like a GOOD Solid State Amp that we teased the owner that the 845 tubes were probably there only as a visual decoration. Still, the 845 sound had the finnesse and the sound staging that only Valves excel in, ( Sorry SS guys )


The Glow of the big tubes warmed not only the room, but also my heart ( but it did NOT have a "Warm" sound ! ) and I pretty much loved the beast.

If the price was right ....

Given what I had been told / warned about the 845 being a crude PA amplifier device, and the sound of the Cadence 845 ( which uses a Solid State Driver in what appears to be a simple circuit ) I think it would be fair to conclude that there is a lot ibn the cooking, besides the ingredients. I guess not all 845s amps will be created equal, or there would be little market left for SS Audiophile amps
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 10. Aug 2007, 14:49

Amp_Nut schrieb:
For whatever its worth.....

1. I dont think much of the EL-34 to deliver the kind of music I listen to ... ROCK. I have found the EL-34 to deliver a glossy / silky sound, lacking in bite and punch. ( I know, I know, these are TERRIBLE generalised statements ).

I think this valave finds favour with Western Classical music fans who prefer a smooth ( sanitised ? ) sound, where the Violins are "silky smooth & never edgy ). Unfortunately, live violins just dont sound that way to me....

The EL-34s also have relatively lower power.



very interesting, Amp_Nut!!! very interesting........

I'm afraid that you have not listened to a good EL34 based power amp as yet. If you do, you will surely change your mind.
Atleast 2 superb EL34 amps are Cary's Sixpac & Modjeski RM-9 MK1 or Mk2. You might or might not be in a position to hear them. Also, if I'm not mistaken Manek's AES?Cary power amp is also EL34 based. Manek?
The Cary Sixpac uses the pentode EL34 tube in triode mode. This, IMO, is the best way to use a EL34 - triode connected pentodes are good! You lose power - the Sixpac are 50W/ch. I had a friend over & we played his music - British underground hard rock from the 1980s & some heavy metal, acid rock. Both he & I were mightly impressed at the amount of tight bass from the Sixpac. It was unreal.
The Modjeski/Music Reference RM-9 uses the EL34 in ultra-linear mode. These amps sound very solid-state with punch to rival a Pass power amp.
There must be other EL34 amps but these 2 come to mind immediately.



Amp_Nut schrieb:

The KT-88s have bite and Punch... sometimes a bit too much bite... IMHO, the KT-88s ROCK !


indeed they do. So says my Jolida integrated amp that can use 6550 or KT88 or KT90. However, what you can get in transparency & emotion from a triode connected EL34 you simply cannot get from a UL KT88 or a pentode connected KT88.



Amp_Nut schrieb:

The 6550s seem to provide the best of the EL-34s and the KT-88s.


depends!
the Svetlana 6550 that came w/ the Jolida sucked - rounded top & fatty bottom. << this comment is ripe for the picking by some other forum members!!! >>
However, I've heard this comment from others who have, say, the CAT JL2 amps. There is nothing rolled off or fat bass about them.
I suppose that it really matters where you bias the tube. There are several positions & each manuf finds the best that he thinks. However, some positions sound better than others to me. The Jolida bias position for the 6550 is not a very good one, IMO.


Amp_Nut schrieb:


The 845 amp from Cadence - WOW ! WOW ! and WOW !

1st WOW ! for the Looks.

2nd WOW ! for the sound

3rd WOW! for the price
( a pair of Monmoblocks is Rs 4L or is it Rs 6 Lakhs + almost 20% tax ... )

The 845 Tube is Great, and can deliver LOTS of power, something that my inefficient speakers would LOVE.

I am told that some amp designs using the 845 produce an un-refined sound, but the Cadence Monoblocks are Superb.

Now if I could get a reasonably priced 845 ...


Just my opiniated 2 cents :prost


No surprise that many people incl you like the 845. The 845 is a triode tube!! Surprise!!!
In fact, it is a true triode like some others - 300B, 2A3, 6AS7, 45, PX25 to name a few.
Also, the 845 is a direct heated triode.
These tubes are know for their sound being "correct". My good friend has a Bel Canto SET40 that a pair of 845s & the sound from it is simply superb. Not always to my liking by that SET magic...........My gosh!

There are some reasonably priced 845 amps from ASL - Antique Sound Labs (China) that you could get used. I believe that they are very good sounding stock & even better modified.
Manek
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 11. Aug 2007, 06:28
hi bombaywalla,

I have the AES AE-3 with the oilcap, diodes and pot mods.
Also have my sights on the six packs, dont know when ....they are mighty fine amps for their price.

Manek.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#13 erstellt: 11. Aug 2007, 14:17
Hi Bombaywalla,

Thanks for your informative post.

For me the KEY property that the 845 brings to the table is to deliver 200 Watts RMS for a single pair of tubes.

Most Tube amps cop out at 45 Watts to 70 Watts, unless they utilise a HUGE complement of paralleled tubes.

Will certainly look into the ASL 845s.

From what I see, they seem to have discountinued their 200 Watt 845 - Mono Blocks.

They too have preferred to deliver 200 Watts using paralleled KT-88s.

I wonder why ? Any thoughts on this ?


Given the fact that even Chinese 200 Watt 845 based amps cost in the region of US $ 6,000 I guess that the Excellent Cadence product at US $ 10 K is pretty good, value.

Sivat said:


Bhagwan, Sfx, Deaf ...do share your thoughts on this.



Hey guys, you 3 probably know more on the Cadence 845 than all the other forum members put together !

So please spare some time and share your views.

It will be informative and benifit us all. Please ?


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 11. Aug 2007, 14:19 bearbeitet]
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#14 erstellt: 12. Aug 2007, 02:42

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Hi Bombaywalla,

Thanks for your informative post.

welcome chief! good to read that it was of some use to you.


Amp_Nut schrieb:

For me the KEY property that the 845 brings to the table is to deliver 200 Watts RMS for a single pair of tubes.


You know, I'm puzzled by this comment of yours! I might be misinformed but I do not think that a single pair of 845s can put out 200W/tube. I've never seen such a product in the market so far..........
I see products in the 40-60W/ch range but rarely anything higher.



Amp_Nut schrieb:

From what I see, they seem to have discountinued their 200 Watt 845 - Mono Blocks.

They too have preferred to deliver 200 Watts using paralleled KT-88s.

I wonder why ? Any thoughts on this ?


I don't know if they ever had 200W/ch 845 monos!
I've always seen their 60W/ch monos which seem to be in the 3rd or higher iteration.

Yes, the ASL Hurricanes are the mono amps that deliver 200W/ch in U-L mode. I believe that they have a U-L/triode switch that makes them output 130W/ch in triode using KT88 tubes. I'm aquainted with a fellow audiophile via email who used to own them & he absolutely loved them. Said that they were one of the few affordable amps that could drive his Eminent Tech 8 speakers. Then he got bold & made a new set of line array speakers for himself (machined the wood & bought drivers from some DIY site) which were far more efficient than the ET-8. He did not need the ASL Hurricanes any more so he went in for their 805 tube based 50W/ch SET. Now, he is happy as a lark in SET-land!
I've not heard a KT88 in triode mode so I do not know what it sounds like. Is it a coincidence that I rarely see triode-connected KT88 power amps in the market? I see far more triode-connected EL34 power amps. Is there something about the sonics of these tubes in triode mode that the amp designers already know hence they favour the EL34 in the triode mode??
sivat
Stammgast
#15 erstellt: 12. Aug 2007, 04:16
Anyone hear heard the deHavilland Aries 845 ??

Also, what is the brand of 845 (the tube itself) used in the current production range of Cadence amp.

Regards
Siva.
bhagwan69
Inventar
#16 erstellt: 12. Aug 2007, 12:06

sivat schrieb:
Also, what is the brand of 845 (the tube itself) used in the current production range of Cadence amp.

Regards
Siva.


The Canasya has tubes from China. Golden Dragon. We got some stock replacement tubes back from Shenzhen [China] for the 845's. They have some different elements. I do not know the details off hand, but will find out soon. I think it is the 845-B.

The Canasya will be on active demo before the end of the month. Details to follow soon.......
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#17 erstellt: 12. Aug 2007, 13:45


You know, I'm puzzled by this comment of yours! I might be misinformed but I do not think that a single pair of 845s can put out 200W/tube. I've never seen such a product in the market so far..........
I see products in the 40-60W/ch range but rarely anything higher.


My mistake. The Cadence delivers 200Watts per channel, using TWO pairs of 845 per channel.




I see far more triode-connected EL34 power amps. Is there something about the sonics of these tubes in triode mode that the amp designers already know hence they favour the EL34 in the triode mode??


I believe that the EL-34 sonics are inherently closer to SET sound than the KT-88s.
Guess its easier to start with satin and make it look like silk....


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 12. Aug 2007, 13:47 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#18 erstellt: 12. Aug 2007, 17:13


We got some stock replacement tubes back from Shenzhen [China] for the 845's. They have some different elements. I do not know the details off hand, but will find out soon. I think it is the 845-B.


Guys, you may find this link informative on dirrerent 845s...

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue15/845.htm#top
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#19 erstellt: 12. Aug 2007, 17:20
Check out this link to some REALLY Budget 845 amplifiers..

http://www.lampizator.eu/AMPLIFIERS/AMPS.html

If other know of nice links on 845, please do post.

Thanks
sivat
Stammgast
#20 erstellt: 13. Aug 2007, 05:41

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Check out this link to some REALLY Budget 845 amplifiers..

http://www.lampizator.eu/AMPLIFIERS/AMPS.html

If other know of nice links on 845, please do post.

Thanks


I 've had some very bad experience buying stuff directly from China. I'll stay away if i were you..

But others might have had a better experience ...

Regards
Siva.
sivat
Stammgast
#21 erstellt: 13. Aug 2007, 05:51

bhagwan69 schrieb:


The Canasya has tubes from China. Golden Dragon. We got some stock replacement tubes back from Shenzhen [China] for the 845's. They have some different elements. I do not know the details off hand, but will find out soon. I think it is the 845-B.

The Canasya will be on active demo before the end of the month. Details to follow soon.......


I think the deHavilland uses the metal plate version of 845.

I currently have Golden Drangon and the Shuguang 845. Not much difference between them....i think they are both the same quality. Probably 845B should be better.

Heard that 845M is better than all other 845, but the parameters are quite different. Deaf, any ideas ??

Regards
Siva.
aks07
Stammgast
#22 erstellt: 01. Okt 2007, 13:16

sivat schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb:


The Canasya has tubes from China. Golden Dragon. We got some stock replacement tubes back from Shenzhen [China] for the 845's. They have some different elements. I do not know the details off hand, but will find out soon. I think it is the 845-B.

The Canasya will be on active demo before the end of the month. Details to follow soon.......


I think the deHavilland uses the metal plate version of 845.

I currently have Golden Drangon and the Shuguang 845. Not much difference between them....i think they are both the same quality. Probably 845B should be better.

Heard that 845M is better than all other 845, but the parameters are quite different. Deaf, any ideas ??

Regards
Siva.

The only DeHevilland owner I know in India is my planter friend Amit Mookerjee in Darjeeling. His Son-in-law brought it across from US. Originally it had Chinese Golden Dragon 845's which were replaced by ex-railways RCA 845 that I gave to Amit.

I yet haven't had the opportunity to listen to them. Hopefully this December. 845's should do nicely for the Darjeeling chills. I will see if Amit can be persuaded to join this forum and post his experiences.

The Shuguang 845B is a very well made tube. I have both the Golden Dragon (return gift from Amit) and 845B. The GD had a mica support at the top which very conveniently transmit the vibration from the glass envelop to the plates. The 854B is a better made tube with strong steel support for the anode plate. This eliminates the offending mica spacer in the top. Beside the QC for 845B is more stringent. I have done A to B listening tests and it sounds very close to the Amperex 845 but not quite like the RCA and United 845. All of these brands (except the Chinese) were available in India till about a few years ago. I last bought the United 845 at approx Rs.1,800/ea in 2004.
deaf
Stammgast
#23 erstellt: 01. Okt 2007, 16:08
[quote="sivat"][quote="bhagwan69"]

The Canasya has tubes from China. Golden Dragon. We got some stock replacement tubes back from Shenzhen [China] for the 845's. They have some different elements. I do not know the details off hand, but will find out soon. I think it is the 845-B.

The Canasya will be on active demo before the end of the month. Details to follow soon.......[/quote]

I think the deHavilland uses the metal plate version of 845.

I currently have Golden Drangon and the Shuguang 845. Not much difference between them....i think they are both the same quality. Probably 845B should be better.

Heard that 845M is better than all other 845, but the parameters are quite different. Deaf, any ideas ??

No, I have idea Siva, but I own six numbers of some of the finest 845 tubes. Original RCA 845 in their original packing sleeves. HEHEHEHE.
Deaf.


[Beitrag von deaf am 01. Okt 2007, 16:10 bearbeitet]
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#24 erstellt: 01. Okt 2007, 20:18

deaf schrieb:

No, I have idea Siva, but I own six numbers of some of the finest 845 tubes. Original RCA 845 in their original packing sleeves. HEHEHEHE.
Deaf.



Deaf,
what you doing with these NOS 845 tubes?
plan to use them?
or waiting for the Ebay value to go even higher before you unload them?
sivat
Stammgast
#25 erstellt: 02. Okt 2007, 01:49

deaf schrieb:


No, I have idea Siva, but I own six numbers of some of the finest 845 tubes. Original RCA 845 in their original packing sleeves. HEHEHEHE.
Deaf.


That's cool. Would be great if you would seel four pairs of those. .. to me, ofcourse

I have so far tried four varities. The regular Shuguang 845, 845C, 845B and the GD 845.

The problem will all other tubes except the GD 845 was that - they are not properly matched...even though they claim to be properly matched.

The 845C was the worst...however, the reason ...i think is that - i probably ended up with one of the factory reject pieces (bought through ebay).

Currently I'm using 845B...they sound the best of the lot. The GD845 and the regular Shuguang 845 comes very close to each other. For the the price this entry level tube is still very good and seems to be reliable.

I believe the 845M is currently out of production...not available anywhere
deaf
Stammgast
#26 erstellt: 02. Okt 2007, 06:00

bombaywalla schrieb:

deaf schrieb:

No, I have idea Siva, but I own six numbers of some of the finest 845 tubes. Original RCA 845 in their original packing sleeves. HEHEHEHE.
Deaf.



Deaf,
what you doing with these NOS 845 tubes?
plan to use them?
or waiting for the Ebay value to go even higher before you unload them? :D



Nope, not right now. Working on a source where there are at least 200 tubes from what info I have.
Deaf


[Beitrag von deaf am 02. Okt 2007, 06:02 bearbeitet]
Arj
Inventar
#27 erstellt: 02. Okt 2007, 17:01

deaf schrieb:
Working on a source where there are at least 200 tubes from what info I have.
Deaf



good lord deaf . are you building one of them early computers to read a cd ?

Wasnt it the UNIVAC ? if i remember right it was as big as a home and could provide enough heat to an entire city !
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#28 erstellt: 02. Okt 2007, 17:35

deaf schrieb:



Nope, not right now. Working on a source where there are at least 200 tubes from what info I have.
Deaf



Back to square 1, eh? every transistor is being replaced by a tube it looks like.
will nitrogen or CO2 cooling come as a package deal with this unit??
deaf
Stammgast
#29 erstellt: 03. Okt 2007, 12:03
You guys get me wrong, I meant a source from where I could procure 200 pieces of RCA 845 tubes.
Deaf.


[Beitrag von deaf am 03. Okt 2007, 12:04 bearbeitet]
abhi.pani
Inventar
#30 erstellt: 03. Okt 2007, 12:15

Back to square 1, eh? every transistor is being replaced by a tube it looks like.
will nitrogen or CO2 cooling come as a package deal with this unit??



deaf schrieb:
You guys get me wrong, I meant a source from where I could procure 200 pieces of RCA 845 tubes.
Deaf.






[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 03. Okt 2007, 12:16 bearbeitet]
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