Valve Amplifiers

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viren
Stammgast
#1 erstellt: 16. Mrz 2005, 06:26
Hello everyone,

I'd like to start a new thread in this forum on valve electronics. I think it deserves a topic by itself.

I have a personal interest in this, since I design and sell valve gear. The commercial aspect aside, I'd like all of you to atleast make the attempt to listen to valve amplifiers.

There is no better technology than valves for the reproduction of music. The only way to prove that to yourselves is to go out and audition these components. Since I design both solid state and valve electronics, I can only say that there is no comparison between the two. Valve designs outclass solid state designs anyday. For me, there is no going back to solid state. It's difficult to listen to my own transistor amps any more!

There is a flow to music, truer harmonic textures of instruments, a musicality, that valve amps capture so well. You get drawn into the music - which is what this whole game is about.

Valve amps do not have to be expensive. They are the simplest of circuits. Unfortunately, there is an aura that has been created around them that has kept prices high. Well, I, at Lyrita Audio am trying to debunk that aura. Valve amps, developed in India, at Indian prices.

Do go and listen to valve amps. Once bitten, you will not go back.

Viren.
Manek
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 16. Mrz 2005, 06:39
completely agree with you on valves Viren. They sure are simple and beautiful to hear.

manek.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 16. Mrz 2005, 06:45
Ok, I have never auditioned or even seen a valve amp for myself but since you emphasize a lot about them and also strike the right chord (price) so just want to know some more from you about them....
I normally listen to commercial music like Rock, Pop, Swing, Techno etc...so how do you think the valves would suit my tastes and music ? As far as I have known the valves are very soft and detailed but not punchy, i.e mainly suited for Jazz and western classical....so does it have the the thing to deliver on other forms of music also (say Pop, Rock) ? If yes, what would be the price of such an amp and what would be the other specs. I am planning to buy the Kef Q5 floorstanding speakers (150 watts RMS at 8 ohms, sensitivity 91 db), Matching them do you have any suggestions for valve amps as well. Please mind that budget would be < 40k for the amp and I would definitely compare them with the Class a/b amps say NAD, Rotel at the similar prices......
hifinovice1
Stammgast
#4 erstellt: 16. Mrz 2005, 06:45
That's great news,for people like us,Valve amps,in Indian prices.
What about Non-Delhiites,where can we audition these?
Do you have any outlets other than Delhi?
Thanks.
roshan
Ist häufiger hier
#5 erstellt: 16. Mrz 2005, 09:27
Hi All/ Hi Viren,

I have commited to buy a piece from Viren and would be more than happy to share my views with all of you and once I get it.

Roshan.
hifinovice1
Stammgast
#6 erstellt: 16. Mrz 2005, 09:47
Roshan,
We eagerly await you findings..
Thanks.
Arj
Inventar
#7 erstellt: 17. Mrz 2005, 05:28
these days, with semiconductor technology the way its is, it is very difficult to exactly diffrentiate between Valve & SS amps. what matters is their Implementation.

Eg the Wavac Amps, are valve . but sound about as hard hitting as a SS. and the machitoshs about as neutral as any SS.and some SS, specifically Sugden, Lavardin, Naim, rega etcvery organic of "Tube like""

One very big point often raised against tubes is that the musicality comes at the expense of Accuracy which is very iportant to some Audiophiles although the oppsite is also true.

I have read but not understoon one point about tubes and that is their Current carrying capacity. apparently the driving power of a tube amp is much more than the driving power of a Transistor amp of the same power rating (Although the tube amp consumes more power)

Just playing Devils advocate here !
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#8 erstellt: 17. Mrz 2005, 09:52
Any idea what would be the cost of lyrita tube amp?
Manek
Inventar
#9 erstellt: 17. Mrz 2005, 11:06

Arj schrieb:

I have read but not understoon one point about tubes and that is their Current carrying capacity. apparently the driving power of a tube amp is much more than the driving power of a Transistor amp of the same power rating (Although the tube amp consumes more power)

Just playing Devils advocate here !


Actually I have read about the same but dont quite believe it. To me watts are watts, current is current. I think someone mentioned on this forum that jolida also expressed that their tubes drive speakers better than equivalent solid states.

Viren, since you design both....can you enlighten us on this issue ?

manek.
viren
Stammgast
#10 erstellt: 17. Mrz 2005, 14:13
Hi,

Without getting too technical, let me see if I can clear up this issue of power. The power delivered is based on the load, the impedance of the speaker, and the capabilities of the amplifier. With the same loudspeaker, playing to the same loudness, both valve and solid-state amps deliver the same power.

Now comes the perception of power. Take a 30 watt/channel valve and solid-state amp. When driven hard (loud!), the solid-state amp will collapse on clipping, giving a brittle and compressed sound. Valve amps clip very gracefully - it is difficult to hear the onset of clipping, till the distortion levels rise dramatically. Also, valve amps portray the dynamics of music more realistically, so seem more powerful. A rule of thumb, is that a valve amp sounds as powerful as a solid-state amp of double the power. It is the perception that counts!

But what is more important is that valve amps reproduce music so much better. Remember, at normal listening levels the amp is running at 3-5 watts of power. The full power of the amp is there for musical peaks.

Viren.
viren
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 17. Mrz 2005, 14:23
Hello again,

Lyrita Audio has two integrated valve amplifiers:

Mini valve amplifier, priced at Rs.10,000.
(10 WRMS per channel)

Integre valve amplifier, priced at Rs.23,500.
(30 WRMS per channel)

I sell direct, that is how I keep prices down. It is inconvenient, in that it is difficult for you to audition the equipment. Once I have some installations in your areas, they can serve as listening points. Till then, we have the net.....

Viren.
Jeeves
Stammgast
#12 erstellt: 17. Mrz 2005, 20:06
Hi Viren,
I for one was very happy to see your website and proud that India too has someone like you for us 'audiophiles'.
I also respect your view of wanting to keep the prices low by selling directly.
However in my opinion, the concept of selling a product like a valve amplifier or for that matter any hifi product to someone who has no first hand experience of it will not be successful and indeed not fair to the buyer.
I think that perhaps you would like to connect to your potential buyers by creating a small network of enthusiastic and 'enlightened' audio dealers in select markets.
A person like Prithvi springs to mind immediately. prithvi, who I have known for 10 years has never pushed boxes but on the other hand has spent innumerable hours (not necessarily financially profitable for him) teaching me slowly the art of 'critical listening'. I can see that he is appreciative of your products. I am sure you can find a few like him elsewhere in the country who think of selling high end sound rather then high end components only.
I for one have never heard valves critically and would love to try out a valve preamp running my power amp. But I need to have access to one.
Jeeves
hifinovice1
Stammgast
#13 erstellt: 18. Mrz 2005, 02:31
Hi Viren,
How would you rate your 30W Valve Amp v/s 30W Cayin TA-30 model,in terms of quality of tubes used/petentiometer's/capacitors used/finish,and the musicality?
Since both are rated at 30W,it is easy to compare.
Thanks.
viren
Stammgast
#14 erstellt: 18. Mrz 2005, 04:47
Jeeves,

Your comments require some reflection on my part. Give me some time to think this issue through.

On comparisons between amps, I will be very partisan in my view. When any of you get the opportunity, its better that you do the comparison. All I will say is that I believe my amps are designed to perform equally if not better than any imported brand. On looks, obviously, I do not have the tooling available to bigger manufacturers. But, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I want to showcase the beauty of glowing valves, and keep all circuitry neatly tucked away.

Viren.
hifinovice1
Stammgast
#15 erstellt: 18. Mrz 2005, 05:59
Viren,
And how much the bokshelfs(allegro,minuet)/SS Amps/pre amps retail at?
Thanks.
TROJAN_HORSE
Gesperrt
#16 erstellt: 18. Mrz 2005, 07:33
Viren wrote :


On comparisons between amps, I will be very partisan in my view. When any of you get the opportunity, its better that you do the comparison.


I appreciate that, but when are you making samples available for audition in bangalore.
vinodt
Ist häufiger hier
#17 erstellt: 18. Mrz 2005, 08:12
There was one point which I barely remember from my engg. classes. Valves are primarly voltage amplifiers but perform at low currents. In order to drive higher currents you would normally see a stepdown transformer used. This can introduce more distortion. Also valves are supposed to amplify the lower harmonics which makes the sound (artificially) more melodious.
Maybe Viren can throw some light on this? Also Viren where do you source the valves and which valves do you use? Are they old stock from russia?
Vinod
ani
Stammgast
#18 erstellt: 18. Mrz 2005, 11:54
The link below is an interesting thesis on psychoacousitic data that correlates with measured values of Power amplifiers.


http://w3.mit.edu/cheever/www/cheever_thesis.pdf
viren
Stammgast
#19 erstellt: 18. Mrz 2005, 16:06
Ani/Vinodt,

Thanks for that link. If anyone has the patience to go through that thesis (abstract, history, conclusions for a start), you'll get an inkling why valves amps sound so good.

Yes, valve amps need an impedance matching output transformer to power loudspeakers. Valves are high impedance devices, speakers are low impedance. The transformer helps transfer power efficiently to the speakers. And since it handles the full audio signal, it is critical to overall sound quality.

I woudn't be touting my designs if I had not addressed this problem. The output transformers are designed especially for my amps by Toroid India, part of the international Toroid group. So, they are toroidal output transformers, use the best of materials, with a frequency reponse of 40Hz to 60kHz. Who says things cannot be engineered in India!

Valves are inherently linear devices, with a frequency response from DC to radio frequencies. More linear than any solid-state device. What limits their performance are interactions with the circuits they are used in. Modern valve designs are not euphonic designs - they are absolutely neutral, or else you couldn't use them with no overall feedback. Old valve designs had no need for an extended frequency range. Radio and old gramaphone recordings gave up at 12Khz! The warmth and harmonious nature of modern valve amps is because of lower upper order harmonic distortions.

I have just revised my design of the Integre amp. The earlier version used 6L6GC power valves of Russian descent. I now use EL84 power valves of BEL (Bharat Electronics) manufacture - old, unused stock. More power to India! The 6SN7 input valves are old stock again from the US - RCA, Sylvania.

Viren.
ipsofacto
Neuling
#20 erstellt: 18. Mrz 2005, 16:19
Hi!

This is a old-timer writing in - a real old-timer. Valve amps were only amplifiers on the racks when HiFi became the new definition of sound and there are dozens of firms still around the ountry who once created very good valve amps. While today I have a variety of equipment - now transistorised, I keerp searching for that combination that will reproduce the past glory of valve amplifiers! - the 'perception' that is being talked about in this forum.

This is actually a combination of analog reproduction and harmonics.

I dont know much about rock (I listen to western classical music with its huge spectrum of frequencies)- and what little I know of it - I dont think the disks are cut for capturing harmonics -thats where the valve-amps score. Sorry if I am rubbing someone on the wrong side!

The reason why these amps declined in use - in the past- is the need for maintenance. The vacuum tubes got 'gassy', the valves amplified system hum, transformers were bulky, and electrolytic capacitors had to be replaced every now and then. Then there is the question of speaker impedance. Valve amps dont give their best at less than 8-ohms and a single woofer, midrange and tweeter set at that impedance requires quite a bit of space - its difficult really to believe a bookshelf speaker can ever do justice to a valve amp.

While the 'best' amplifiers in the world - the McIntosh for instance - are phenomenally expensive, SACD disks are greatly preferred in Europe because they they produce the analog psychoacoustics (Stereo,rather than multi-channel sound resembling value harmonics). Outboard valve DACs are also coming into vogue to replace the run-of the-mill DACs in the CD Decks and the NAD 521BEE which is often mentioned in this forum has a digital out (as does Denon DVD 1910) to accomodate these DACs.

The fact that Viren has started making these valve amps is great news and I look forward to getting a preamp from him if he ever makes one.
purnendu
Stammgast
#21 erstellt: 21. Mrz 2005, 11:53
Hi Manek and folks,
Glad to see that tube amps are in and that Lyrita amps are being discussed. I have been running the Lyrita Integre valve amp for some six months now and thought I could share my experience. Lets get the looks out of the way first. The kit has an old world charmm to it but clearly lacks the slick look and feel that one associates with fine equipment. I for one think looks are important and the designer will perhaps be able to improve this aspect. The knobs and switches can certainly be better. My guess is that Viren has compromised on these aspects to put his money where it really matters, that is inside. The amp has worked flawless for the past six months except for one blown fuse which I changed myself.
Now about the sound, keeping in mind the limitations of my sources and speakers. The latter are well kept but old Cyrus 780s and cdp is a Sony Es333 and the TT is a NAD 5120 with Denon 110 high output MC. With a good record the TT is very much the better source. In fact the Lyrita has helped me enjoy my old records once again. I am reluctant to use adjectives to describe the sound of the amp, except that its very clear at mid volume and doesent get tiring even over prolonged lisening. Cranking up the volume means congestion if one is listening to say a symphony. This is probably not an amp for blasting the roof. Smaller quartets and trios are just fine. Vocals are excellent. The personality of an individual male voice like say Bade Ghulam Ali Khan comes with out in all its idiosysncracy. Old man Marley comes out nice and rough. Carreras comes out real taut and smooth. More energetic kinds of music like say a jazz piece are also quite enjoyable although again loud listening isnt really possible. The lack of bass in my speakers probably prevents the amp from giving out the thump line at lower listening levels. Piano is excellent Oscar Peterson is superb. Over all the amp is uncoloured without beeing sharp. It is not mellow and smooth etc. Frankly its doesnt sound like a valvy amp, but just like a good refined amp.
I do believe that this amp can take superior sources than are at my dispoal right now, although it is the turntable that really goes with this amp. If I can afford it some day I will get myself a better tt, perhaps the NAD 533 with Rega arm, although god alone how much that would cost.
Well that about all. Should any one want a realistically priced tube amp in India the integre is a fine choice. I can honestly say that I have been listening to a lot more music sine I bought it and a lot more variety of music.

Purnendu
stevieboy
Stammgast
#22 erstellt: 22. Mrz 2005, 06:39
hi viren,

just to give you a background, i was thinking of going in for the jolida integrated. but i checked your site out and saw the valve pre amp. 2 questions. first how much is it? and second if i buy it and a normal solid state power amp, would i get the warmth and the air of the valves coming through? would be a cheaper set up for me, allowing me to spend more on speakers!!!

also the mini valve amp the 10 watter one, if i buy two, one for each channel, would they drive something like the cadence arita which is some 88 db, 100 watt speaker?

i dont know if its against forum rules to post prices, so send me a pm on that. just thought everyone would benefit assuming a lot of guys would have the same questions.

would you be open to doing a 10 day test thingie? shipping the piece to me and then if i'm not satisfied i ship it back at my expense? sounds fair to me and i think you'd have a lot more trials!!!

way to go keep the indian flag flying!
stevieboy
Stammgast
#23 erstellt: 22. Mrz 2005, 06:44
rather let me rephrase the last question. what watt speakers would be suitable for the 10 watter mini valve amp?
Arj
Inventar
#24 erstellt: 22. Mrz 2005, 09:54
Manek, Got this of a french site. it is translated from FR using babelfish hence may sound a bit funny..
++++++++++++++++++++++
It is logical to think that more one amplifier is powerful plus the noise level will be high.

We saw that it is not so simple with the questions of output or impedance. In the same way for l"amplificator himself the progression of the noise level is not arithmetic and also depends on its architecture and nature on its active components, tubes or transistors.

To compare two of the same amplifiers tubes and transistors nominal nominal output, one can easily estimate that the subjective power relating to the noise level obtained is moreover of the double in favour of the tube. It should be specified that many tube amplifiers have two exits for the enclosures of 4 or 8 ohms of impedance. Simple "a push sweater" of tubes EL34 will develop 35 to 40 Watts of power into nominal but it can control very well enclosures from 89/90 dB of output with a noise level completely satisfying even for an evening disco music! Once again not to hesitate to carry out tests because the outputs announced by the manufacturers are not inevitably precise!

For a transistor amplifier, the power depends directly on quality on its food, transformers and condensers, which alone represent sometimes more half of the cost price of the apparatus. Then to increase the power it is enough to multiply the number of transistors per channel. A well built amplifier can control very well with 50 Watts a pair of enclosure of average output (89/90 dB).

Before the arrival of CD to obtain a good dynamics, capacity to reproduce the weakest sounds and the strongest sounds without chopping or distortion, one used the amplifiers with less quarter of the power available with enclosures to good output (93/95dB).

Since CD a dynamics brought to the level of the reading of more than 100dB of report/ratio signal noise, and soon more than 120 dB with the new converters. The relative power of the amplifier becomes less significant.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Manek schrieb:

Actually I have read about the same but dont quite believe it. To me watts are watts, current is current. I think someone mentioned on this forum that jolida also expressed that their tubes drive speakers better than equivalent solid states.

Viren, since you design both....can you enlighten us on this issue ?

manek.
Manek
Inventar
#25 erstellt: 22. Mrz 2005, 12:51
ipsofacto,

viren does make valve pre-amp.

check out his website.

manek.
viren
Stammgast
#26 erstellt: 24. Mrz 2005, 04:01
Hello Steve,

If you desire the full bloom and richness and emotion of music to come through, there is nothing to beat an all valve setup.

Since valve designs are lower powered than their solid-state counterparts, to play music to the same loudness levels, valve amps are best mated with higher sensitivity speakers - 88 to 92dB.

Valve amps (actually, all amps) like to see a uniform speaker impedance across the frequency range. The speaker impedance should not drop below 4 ohms; so 6 to 8 ohm speakers are preferred.
(Speaker impedance varies with frequency. Even 8 ohm rated speakers can show dips below 4 ohms, depending on the design of the crossover. Lyrita Audio speakers show an almost flat 6 ohm impedance).

So, in cases where the speakers are less sensitive, and are of low impedance, a solid-state power amp may be more suitable. There, a valve preamp will bring some of the magic of valve sound.

It's difficult to bridge the two channels of a low-powered valve amp to deliver a single channel of higher power. So, using two Mini valve amps, one for each channel, will give no benefit. However, you could use the Mini for your surround channels!

Yes, I'm willing to offer the amps on a trial basis. We can work out a payment arrangement, and you keep the amp only if you like it.

Viren.
hifinovice1
Stammgast
#27 erstellt: 28. Mrz 2005, 11:57
Has anybody auditioned, Lyrita-Audio, Valve Amps?
What's your impressions?
Thanks.
hifinovice1
Stammgast
#28 erstellt: 11. Apr 2005, 04:49
Roshan,
You had placed an order with Viren(Lyrita Audio).How's the intgra Valve Amp's performance?
Await your comments.
Thanks.
panditr
Ist häufiger hier
#29 erstellt: 11. Apr 2005, 20:10
Hello hifinovice

I recently heard the Lyrita valve amps and they were simply awesome. The mids and the highs were beautiful and the bass was tight, at least with the CD it was sounding beautiful. I will recommend that amp if you listen to classical, jazz and types of music where loudness is not a criteria for enjoying the music. I had written about the Lyrita amps 15 days back on the same forum. Technically I do not know how to describe the amps performance but it sounds wonderfully mellow and soothing. It makes the CD sound like like an LP without the scratches.
Go for it.

Rahul Pandit
hifinovice1
Stammgast
#30 erstellt: 12. Apr 2005, 01:43
Thanks Rahul,for the feedback.
By the way which speaker's you used,with Lyrita amp?what are their specs?Since I believe valve amps are sensitive to impedance(they don't like low impedance speakers).
panditr
Ist häufiger hier
#31 erstellt: 12. Apr 2005, 13:05
Hifi
Viren had used his own pair of Floorstanding speakers which he manufactures. The speakers were rated to handle 75 watts @6ohms They were tall, voluminous and paired well with the amp giving a detailed sound.
roshan
Ist häufiger hier
#32 erstellt: 14. Apr 2005, 09:59
Hi Fi Novice,

I did place an order and Viren is all set to deliver it later this week. Unfortunately I'm on holiday for a month and will be back in Mid May. So I guess there's a months wait for me to hear it.

Regards,

Roshan.
ipsofacto
Neuling
#33 erstellt: 14. Apr 2005, 12:21
I am responding to the comments made by Rahul Pandit on the capabilities of Lyrita amplifiers and the questions raised on compatible speakers.

Classical music - particularly Western clasical - requires a reasonably strong reproduction at least at 35 Hz and highs, at least, 10kHz.

I have a pair of Tannoy Arundels (15-in dia. dual concentric drive units}, purchased a long time ago. Although their sensitivity is rated at 92 db (1W at 1M), the minimum power required to drive them suitably is 150 Watts RMS. They have a nominal impedance of 8 ohms, min 5.5 ohms.

Its very unlikely that the Lyrita's can drive these speakers - or speakers of this type - and hence my interest in their preamps, hooked to solid state power amps. like the Yamaha, which are sort of affordable.

Of course, I recognise that Tannoys are priced sky high and there will be few readers here who will be interested in them.

My main point is: the power rating of speakers and amplifiers is very important - unless you have golden ears that can obtain happiness at low wattages. Thats what Nakamichi banks on for their low-end intergrates.

Ipsofacto
hifinovice1
Stammgast
#34 erstellt: 15. Apr 2005, 01:24
Ipsofacto,
I was just wondering ,if you really need 150W of amps,to drive a set of speakers of 92db sensitivity,coz in that case you are going up to 113 db of sound level,which is way too high for listening.But at this level clipping would come into picture.
And Rahul says Lyrita's floorstanders which are 75W@6 ohms,(no db given)are good enough for 30W amp,which is little contradicting to what you say.
And again there are many audiophile who vouch 30W of Valve roughly equals 60W of SS,contentious issue though.
Manek/Prithvi/Viren,and infact all audiophiles what's your take?
Manek
Inventar
#35 erstellt: 15. Apr 2005, 05:07
hifinovice1

I for one still am not convinced that 30W of Valve roughly equals 60W of SS. Watts are watts. But the fact that 35 watts of tube power seems to be sufficient for our rooms and speakers is another matter. A very well designed 35 watter SS amp would probably do very nicely too for the same speakers.

Tubes do sound better to some, to some they just dont have the oomph needed. To each his own, I say !

So if anyone who is thinking of replacing a 60 watter SS amp with a 30 watter tube amp with the thought that 30W of Valve roughly equals 60W of SS, you could be in for a big shock once you bring the amp home. The speakers should be tube friendly. Highish on efficiency about 88-89db and above. On the impedance front I still dont like the idea of a 4 ohm load on a 30 watt tube amp.

Manek.
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