A Good Stereo?

Nice read. Thanks Viren, for putting it up on the forum.

-anto.

i wouldnt call it masterful ( he call himself a Hacker !) more like a humorous well read article

Arj schrieb:

i wouldnt call it masterful ( he call himself a Hacker !) more like a humorous well read article :D

Good reading. But I would agree with Arj here.
While I am a supporter of music systems that are involving and musical rather than analytical , I support the pursuit of assembling music systems that are resolving enough to convey the musical event in it’s technical excellence. I agree that sometimes in the pursuit of technical perfection, you sometimes end up with an analytical system which is not involving and thereby lose the whole point of the exercise.. ie: “listening and enjoying music”.
Such pursuits usually send audiophiles on a fruitless trip in search of things like what the writer said in the paragraph below:
"the midrange detail is somewhat occluded by a slightly recessed area in the presence region, although this can be mitigated in part by standing on your head and balancing your cat between your toes. I found the sound to be slightly sweeter when using the XYZ P-2000 cables, although I am not sure I would recommend spending $5000 on a pair of cables for a $600 pair of speakers"
I have yet to meet a musician - audiophile who will analyze a system like this. They will usually look for “musical rightness” of the system.

Ha Ha I cannot stop smiling.It is aligning with my thoughts..No offenses!
I have seen lot of people talking in air with buzz words and I simply smile in heart

manz_blr schrieb:

Ha Ha I cannot stop smiling.It is aligning with my thoughts..No offenses! I have seen lot of people talking in air with buzz words and I simply smile in heart

hey everyone starts at that phase so no offense

afterwards its purely ones own choice on to if thay want to stay or want to experiment with resolution/accuracy etc.

being an audiophile may not be just about music. (not going by definition) it could also means in interest in the system which conveys it and for some people the system may be more important that enjoying the music ! and that is definitely not wrong !

i can really enjoy music on my ipod and my car stereo..but for serious lstening i prefer my Home stereo and then, for me, it is not just about enjoying the music.

In almost every audio discussion of this lines (the mother roots always are the accuracy Vs Musicality and the Emotion Vs measurement debate) there are 2 sides. and funnily both sides are right (so is everyone in between as l0ng as they know what they want).The problem happens when one side believes it is right and tries to convert the other !!!

I hope that is not what this thread ends up doing

BTW: talking in the air with buzz words is something which is human nature from cricket to management consultants(dont even get me started on tnat one ) and so blaming only audiophiles would not be fair. but there is some element of fact in it and if you are able to differentiate the fact from the gas then you are "there".

Yes Arj,I know some people forgets music, puts energy for the hardware and nut and bolts and some think it a device to produce accurate sound enegry !.It all different views and in this world we have to respect all.I am more inclined towards second view! .It is very dirty job to be a audophile ;).I am not one !(Wife looks badly when you touch a new CD in landmark) or u show her picture of a amp or FS

To be frank I enjoy a good quality headphones then some cheap systems.

I wish in India price of hardware was descent.There might have been a bigger group for enthusist.Now mass still buys X0000 PMPO's.

Guys, an "Audiophile" is a DIFFERENT animal from a Music lover.

A music lover will enjoy AM music played on an old transistor radio.

An audiophile will Not.

I distinctly prefer being an Audiophile.

That why I told "device to produce accurate sound enegry"
Music lover does not seems to care much about that.
And audiophile seems to be generic term for me coz there are lot of schools of thoughts.Some love analog some digtial some tubes/solid.

An audiophile, from Latin audire "to hear" and Greek philos "loving,but i don't love to stick to that definition.Because most of us are more then that!

Btw
http://www.theaudioc...udio_Critic_26_r.pdf

is a good read

Wikipedea states : “Audiophiles are people who seek to listen to music at a level of quality as close to the original performance as possible. They use high-fidelity components to try and attain these goals. Most are music lovers who are passionate about high-quality music reproduction”

The KEY words :

Audiophile = high-quality music reproduction

Where quality of the reproduction does not matter.... are 'simply'..... "Music Lovers"

square_wave schrieb:

Most are music lovers who are passionate about high-quality music reproduction”

there is another Key...the word is Most not All

we are getting really really lawyerish in this forum

Arj schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Most are music lovers who are passionate about high-quality music reproduction” there is another Key...the word is Most not All we are getting really really lawyerish in this forum ;)

Agree

Amp_Nut schrieb:

The KEY words : Audiophile = high-quality music reproduction Where quality of the reproduction does not matter.... are 'simply'..... "Music Lovers"

If we take music out of the equation,it will be Audiophile = high quality sound reproduction
In such a case "involvement" will not matter.

Here we go again...

Shahrukh schrieb:

Here we go again... :cut

Take it easy:)
I know atleast half a dozen audiophiles who are like this. They love high quality sound reproduction. Music is just incidental. There is nothing wrong with that.
There are different types of audiophiles. Some are in this for the love of gear, some high fidelity sound, some high fidelity music. Some are a mix of all these. All of them will like a certain kind of gear based on their primary preference.

square_wave schrieb:

Shahrukh schrieb: Here we go again... :cut Take it easy:) I know atleast half a dozen audiophiles who are like this. They love high quality sound reproduction. Music is just incidental. There is nothing wrong with that. There are different types of audiophiles. Some are in this for the love of gear, some high fidelity sound, some high fidelity music. Some are a mix of all these. All of them will like a certain kind of gear based on their primary preference.

Yeah SW, I know we have different schools of thought in audiophilia. And some believe in this and others believe in that. In fact we all know that. Yet we ramble on and on... it's beginning to get a lil boring, that all!!

What happened to "Hey I just heard x component and it rocks/sux"?

It's all the same thing over and over again!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...!!

Shahrukh schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: Shahrukh schrieb: Here we go again... :cut Take it easy:) I know atleast half a dozen audiophiles who are like this. They love high quality sound reproduction. Music is just incidental. There is nothing wrong with that. There are different types of audiophiles. Some are in this for the love of gear, some high fidelity sound, some high fidelity music. Some are a mix of all these. All of them will like a certain kind of gear based on their primary preference. Yeah SW, I know we have different schools of thought in audiophilia. And some believe in this and others believe in that. In fact we all know that. Yet we ramble on and on... it's beginning to get a lil boring, that all!! What happened to "Hey I just heard x component and it rocks/sux"? It's all the same thing over and over again! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...!!

Yeah I know this will go round and round like an old record player........

square_wave schrieb:

Yeah I know this will go round and round like an old record player........ ;)

which is better than a cd going round and round. :p

jest joking dont want to start another old debate on formats

hey arj

you were saying something about management consultants ?????

the flair they have for air is quite amazing ! dont you think ?

quite like an expensive stereo...............
the imaging is good
the staging is elaborate
gobs of apparent detail
shows a lot of promise


but miles away from ground reality !

Manek

Manek schrieb:

hey arj you were saying something about management consultants ????? the flair they have for air is quite amazing ! dont you think ? quite like an expensive stereo............... the imaging is good the staging is elaborate gobs of apparent detail shows a lot of promise but miles away from ground reality ! Manek

LOL Manek you seem to be "bitten one" too

the worst is when the answer to any question starts with a "Depends" !

eg a simple question: So Does this system sound good.

Ans: Depends..since the sound is so subjective and each component adds something or takes aways something else and since finally the room itself is so much of a factor..Yabba Dabba Dooh. Blah blah blah... Finally as I was saying it depends!

Arj

yes, The dreaded "D" word !
.....and have you noticed that they nearly always tell you what you already know ? and what you didnt know was not too relavant at all ?

Which leaves you thinking at the end of the meeting.....
"So whats new ?"

Manek.

The worst thing is that in most of the live shows I have seen in bangalore(in genaral) does not give much importance to audio systems and only interested in "Big" name of the performer.

I really don't want my sytem to perform like any live shows...ha ha..
but some times nothing gives more pleasure then sound of strings like some body performing before you (don't know my claims are true !)

manz_blr schrieb:

The worst thing is that in most of the live shows I have seen in bangalore(in genaral) does not give much importance to audio systems and only interested in "Big" name of the performer. I really don't want my sytem to perform like any live shows...ha ha.. but some times nothing gives more pleasure then sound of strings like some body performing before you (don't know my claims are true !)

Sir,

Pardon my ignorance, but it seems that you are mixing / confusing up between live & p.a. performance.

When an 'audiophile' says 'live' he generally means - non miked / no amplifier & definately no speakers. It is a 'pure' sound. Straight from an instrument into ones ears.

This can be experianced in Indian & Western Classical performances. Indian classical when there is a 'biathak' or a small gathering, where the performer sings or plays an instrument without and electronics.
Western Classical concerts are generally p.a. less. More often than not. At least I have never attended a western classical concert where mics etc have been used.

Try to sttend those concerts !!

manz_blr schrieb:

The worst thing is that in most of the live shows I have seen in bangalore(in genaral) does not give much importance to audio systems and only interested in "Big" name of the performer. I really don't want my sytem to perform like any live shows...ha ha.. but some times nothing gives more pleasure then sound of strings like some body performing before you (don't know my claims are true !)

Are you trying to say

1) Audiophile who strive reproduce "live" sound at home...are on a wrong path

(or)

2) PA system in live music is bad !!

Not sure as to what u mean . Please enlighten us.

Regards
Siva.

Sir,
Bhagwan : Thanks for clarifying same.But the PA system should try to reproduce the sound to audience[I mean concert halls not open air],isn't ?.I was confused about what Audiophile trying to recreate,orginal instrument or orginal recording.Thanks for the info again.

Shiva:As far as I know it is impossible to reproduce the orginal sound.Live rock show which happens over 125db is almost impossible to reproduce given limitaions of speakers and amps.But what we are trying to do is approx perfection

manz_blr schrieb:

.Live rock show which happens over 125db is almost impossible to reproduce given limitaions of speakers and amps.But what we are trying to do is approx perfection :)

Not sure of what you mean..if it is possible to be done via amplification in a live concert why is it impossible in a Hi-fi ?

or are you talking of unamplified rock concerts (Are there any ? )

manz_blr schrieb:

Shiva:As far as I know it is impossible to reproduce the orginal sound.Live rock show which happens over 125db is almost impossible to reproduce given limitaions of speakers and amps.But what we are trying to do is approx perfection :)

I still cannot understand ... sorry if i sound a bit dumb

125db ??? what does it have to do with reproduction and fidelity ???

For 119 dB we need 2000W per channel assuming you listen from 12 feet.Remember for 3db you need to double the power and human ears are not linear in capturing sound.I don't think it is quiet practical at home.So turing knob is just more distortion not "loudness"

sivat :I am taking about huge power requirements inherent in reproducing real-life acoustic sound levels in average or big rooms
A solo grand piano can reach peak levels of 109 dB SPL, a full orchestra and chorus in a concert hall will measure 106 dB, and a rock group, 125 dB SPL

manz_blr schrieb:

Sir, Bhagwan : Thanks for clarifying same.But the PA system should try to reproduce the sound to audience[I mean concert halls not open air],isn't ?.I was confused about what Audiophile trying to recreate,orginal instrument or orginal recording.Thanks for the info again. Shiva:As far as I know it is impossible to reproduce the orginal sound.Live rock show which happens over 125db is almost impossible to reproduce given limitaions of speakers and amps.But what we are trying to do is approx perfection :)

Are you talking about loudness or fidelity ?

manz_blr schrieb:

For 119 dB we need 2000W per channel assuming you listen from 12 feet.Remember for 3db you need to double the power and human ears are not linear in capturing sound.I don't think it is quiet practical at home.So turing knob is just more distortion not "loudness"

Arj, Manek,

"Depends" ...

Regards
Siva.

Yeah "Depends" :).Loudness is a also important factors in fidelity.That why we shed money for powerful amp(I know you disagree)
Actually fidelity is really a "depends" factor.In reality even vector speakers(Ambisonics )are not able reach near spatial reproduction technically required.

manz_blr schrieb:

For 119 dB we need 2000W per channel assuming you listen from 12 feet.Remember for 3db you need to double the power and human ears are not linear in capturing sound.I don't think it is quiet practical at home.So turing knob is just more distortion not "loudness".

119 dB !!!! man you definitely need to be sitting really close to them speakers . I guess those terms are more Audiophallic than audiophillic

manz_blr schrieb:

Loudness is a also important factors in fidelity.

loudness maybe for a rock concert, but for fidelity??? or unless your benchmark is "fidelity to a rock concert". and that would be weird because many recordings are made in the studio or certain live ones in small clubs where the ambience is more intimate so if you want fidelity to a rock concert even for these type of recordings...

manz_blr schrieb:

Yeah "Depends" :).Loudness is a also important factors in fidelity.That why we shed money for powerful amp(I know you disagree)

hmmi guess dynamic-ness might be a better term than loud-ness regarding need for a powerful amp...and if you are going to run a 200W amp on a 100db speaker in a 12 x 15 room then more than 50W will really be waste power even under the most extreme headbanging conditin
(Actually even 25Watts migh fry ones brains !)

Hmm... Now I am more confused.
So you guys mean to say "studio-recording" is wat audiophile try to reproduce most of the time (That is what I also believed).Or is it directly from instruments kind of music as Bhagwan told ?.If we think live show(even non-amplified) as reference I think loudness is also a factor of fiedlity.Other wise are'nt we missing some thing.Other wise "bass drum rolls" is not reaching you

Fidelity is not a measurable quality.It is just a perspection.Most of us haven't seen Diana Krall live before us but still we take it as reference and think that is the one to test.So I think every body has there own fidelity sense.We never heard the orginal and we are trying to reach near it ?? They think this is what I want and that is the best.

I am also confused about the dynamics part !.More power means more volume with out distortion.
ARj:Can you please explain what you meant by dynamic-ness

Just curiosity, any of you really own a 100db speaker for home audio.I think only Musical Instrument Speakers comes in that range

manz_blr schrieb:

We never heard the orginal and we are trying to reach near it ??

hi manz,

well you've hit the nail on the head. nobody knows how a cd was mastered yet many people will claim that one system is more accurate or whatever. its a never ending debate but personally i think the only people who can tell you whether your system is reproducing instruments correctly is the band itself and the recording engineer who's mixed it.

fidelity i think is fidelity to reproducing a performance the way it was recorded. making a studio session sound like a live performance would be distorting the truth! even different live performances sound so different.

i think the a system making the musicians sound 'live' is more like musicians playing right in front of you whether they sound like they're jamming at a live concert or in a club or in the studio. its a feeling of having the musicians right there in your room.

regards

its a feeling of having the musicians right there in your room.

Which is nearly impossible to achieve:).I always use the sound from violin/guiter/tabla to judge "live" sense speaker/amp which also I think is not a good guess

manz_blr schrieb:

its a feeling of having the musicians right there in your room. Which is nearly impossible to achieve:).I always use the sound from violin/guiter/tabla to judge "live" sense speaker/amp which also I think is not a good guess

exactly. if you have heard live unamplified music..you will know if the tone is right..and if you are able to get that right then your speaker is accurate.

eg a traingle which works in a narrow freq range. it has an attack and a decay.
so if all factors lke impact of the attack, length and timbre of the decay as well as the tonality of the sound is like that of the real thing..then the reproduction of the system in that freq range can eb said to be accurate.


this is what many audiophiles would try to get accurate across the frequency spectrum.

regarding recordings..well no matter how much we like to believe 99% of cds are recorded as to how the recording engineer would want them..but there are those 1% reference disks which you can use to tune the system..thats the only way you will be able to measure the system..the rest 99% are only to enjoy the music with the understanding that you are hearing it feom a well tuned system...if you understand this then you will understand what is meant by the obsessive interest in this hobby

thats why many times this 1% of the cds may be played 75% of the time !

whether one agrees with it or not is another matter..whether it makes sense for the sudiophile concerned is all that matters in the end !

ARj:Can you please explain what you meant by dynamic-ness

well this is not really an english word..but IMHO you need high powered amps to ensure that in dynamic music where the load is highly varying you wiilll want a high powered amp which can work around the entire spectrum. thats why you will want a high powered amp..not just to play it louder !

anyway its a minor point !

Arj schrieb:

manz_blr schrieb: its a feeling of having the musicians right there in your room. Which is nearly impossible to achieve:).I always use the sound from violin/guiter/tabla to judge "live" sense speaker/amp which also I think is not a good guess exactly. if you have heard live unamplified music..you will know if the tone is right..and if you are able to get that right then your speaker is accurate. eg a traingle which works in a narrow freq range. it has an attack and a decay. so if all factors lke impact of the attack, length and timbre of the decay as well as the tonality of the sound is like that of the real thing..then the reproduction of the system in that freq range can eb said to be accurate. this is what many audiophiles would try to get accurate across the frequency spectrum. regarding recordings..well no matter how much we like to believe 99% of cds are recorded as to how the recording engineer would want them..but there are those 1% reference disks which you can use to tune the system..thats the only way you will be able to measure the system..the rest 99% are only to enjoy the music with the understanding that you are hearing it feom a well tuned system...if you understand this then you will understand what is meant by the obsessive interest in this hobby thats why many times this 1% of the cds may be played 75% of the time ! whether one agrees with it or not is another matter..whether it makes sense for the sudiophile concerned is all that matters in the end ! ARj:Can you please explain what you meant by dynamic-ness well this is not really an english word..but IMHO you need high powered amps to ensure that in dynamic music where the load is highly varying you wiilll want a high powered amp which can work around the entire spectrum. thats why you will want a high powered amp..not just to play it louder ! anyway its a minor point !

But the point here is there is no point in calibrating your system to reference disk.Sound engineers always change it to make it suitable to be reproduced using our inaccurate hi-fi setups.IMHO your system calibrated for reference disk will not sound good for "impure" music which engineers had there scissors on.

I have to be over optimistic if you are saying you can capture a unamplfied violin and reproduce that in your hi-fi.I would also love to bring a Opera in my listening room but..

my quote in the earlier thread was (with the corrected spelling)

whether one agrees with it or not is another matter..whether it makes sense for the audiophile concerned is all that matters in the end !

its an Audiophile thing you either understand it or you dont..and either way you can still enjoy the music like th owners who own vintage cars and spend an hour everyday polishing maintaining it but drive it only once a year...

i dont think any audiophile would call the obsession crazy (but of courze we might sell the car off and buy some power cables )

ha ha ...i'm still on my way

hi arj,

one might have live unamplified music as one's benchmark but does it hold true when in the recording studio a lot of instruments are amplified in some form? also add to that the fact that guitarists use tone controls to get a particular tone they want. wouldn't tone change from guitarist to guitarist even those using the same model? not to mention the umpteen models of instruments made all of which have different tones and signature characteristics. even acoustic guitars vary in sound. how does one know which guitar was used in recording and therefore the tone and instrument characteristics to have a benchmark against? even drum kits are different and cymbals itself vary from manufacturer to manufacturer with the sound varying. how can one lump all of them together and have a single unamplified session as one's benchmark. even if you take many unamplified sessions how do you know which instrument and what tone controls the instrument player has used on a particular recording?

regarding dynamics... quite surprisingly for me the 3 watt SET sounds more dynamic than my old 15 watt push pull. viren did tell me it would be so but hearing it...

could you elaborate on the reference recordings you had in mind when you mentioned them? interested in reading up/checking them out. thanks!

regards

and guitarist are the culprit for obsession to tubes

Hi Steve,

If I may interject!

Dynamics in music mean the range from the softest to the loudest. Too often we concentrate on just how loud the system can go. To me, dynamics are independent of loudness.

Valve amps excell here, especially the SET amp, in portraying the gentlest of sounds so clearly. Because you hear the soft sounds so well, the jump to louder sounds is dramatic. As clarity is maintained, dynamics seem incredible. That makes the sound seem powerful.

As far as using live acoustic instruments as a benchmark, the idea is not to tune your system or your ears to a particular signature sound. Just that your system should be able to capture the complex harmonic structure of real instruments. Leave instruments aside, capture the human voice! Of that we should have no compunctions!

Viren

stevieboy schrieb:

regarding dynamics... quite surprisingly for me the 3 watt SET sounds more dynamic than my old 15 watt push pull. viren did tell me it would be so but hearing it...

power in watts means Zilch..it is the current capability and the slew rate etc which correlate to dynamic ability ofn the amp..there are many 0-20Watter which are perhaps more dynamic than many 100Watters

I guess amp_nut/Siva, our resident techie experts would be able to explain this in a better way than my more layman-ish attempt