Tube Buffers

i heard the musical fidelity one once.

avoidable in my view. Just another device in the chain with more interconnects and stuff.

better buy a tube output source or preamp or dac instead.

Buffers may serve the purpose when one needs to connect a high output impedance source to drive a relatively low input impedance target. eg cdp with say 2k output impedance to a amp with 10k input impedance.

manek.

Manek schrieb:

i heard the musical fidelity one once. avoidable in my view. Just another device in the chain with more interconnects and stuff. better buy a tube output source or preamp or dac instead. Buffers may serve the purpose when one needs to connect a high output impedance source to drive a relatively low input impedance target. eg cdp with say 2k output impedance to a amp with 10k input impedance. manek.

Totally agree. A buffer is useful only for impedance matching. Otherwise its just another piece in the chain that probably adds its own color to the output. Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me.

Avoidable

herculepirate schrieb:

Hello Does anyone have any experience with any Tube Buffers? How much of a difference in tone is achieved or is it just a scam? Regards HP

If your source does not have enough juice on its output section, this would be very useful in bringing about more dynamics...but if your source us good enough it is a waste of money..

eg to run an iPOD into an int amp directly, this is very helpful ! as in the end it gives the source and easy load and takes the tougher load of the amp onto itself.

herculepirate schrieb:

Hello Does anyone have any experience with any Tube Buffers? How much of a difference in tone is achieved or is it just a scam? Regards HP

HerculePirate, counter question for you - which application do you have in mind when you are asking about tube buffers? Thanx.

A spinning head with lots of ideas with hours of internet...

I would understand the Audio Head saying replace the source or the Amp or Preamp to Tube...
This idea of adding a buffer would be like fast food in Audio ... I guess.

I have a clean sounding setup and was wondering if there were ways to warm up the tones without distorting.
Also I have never heard a Tube Preamp ever before... Very weired country to even try out stuff too...anyway

Just came across the buffer Idea

Regards

HP

what source are u using now ?

herculepirate said:

I have a clean sounding setup and was wondering if there were ways to warm up the tones.

At the risk of sounding Absurd, there is a ZERO cost option to get just what you are looking for.... SPEAKER TOE-IN/ TOE-OUT

Just toe out your speakers... do this gradually ( in approx 5 deg increments initially, and then fine tune), always ensuring that the speakers 'disappear' at the listning position. The speaker that sounds louder... move back wrt the listning position.( couple of centimeters at a time)

Move them closer to a wall / corner for more bass. Too close and you will trade bass quantity for quality.

You will get a warmer sound by NOT firing the tweeters directly at your ears in the listning position, and by increasing the bass, if necessary.

The solution may sound simplistic, but believe me it WORKS ! I should know, I have just done it last week in my set up, for making the presentation more forward ( I Increased the Toe-in ).

The advantage of Toe-out ... which is what you need ... is that you will also get a wider soundstage !

Have patience, and send some time. You WILL be rewarded, and realise that speaker positioning is an art, that is atleast as rewarding as the pursuit of HiFi itself...

Hi,

I'm going to pose a more philosophical question here - because I have heard this request once too many times.

How do I warm up the sound of my system? With tubes?

The proponent insists that he/she has a very high-end, very clean, very neutral music system. But would like a better tone to the music.

Let's get back to basics. Audio reproduction systems are here to play music. As anyone who listens regularly to live music will attest, music brings enjoyment, and liberates the soul.

If you are not getting that feeling at home, you have just selected the wrong equipment. Tubes do not colour the sound. Tubes just bring out the essence of music, the soul, much better than any other amplification method. That sense is what you need to seek.

Viren

Tube Buffers: One more component in the chain means another source of signal loss .

viren schrieb:

Hi, I'm going to pose a more philosophical question here - because I have heard this request once too many times. How do I warm up the sound of my system? With tubes? The proponent insists that he/she has a very high-end, very clean, very neutral music system. But would like a better tone to the music. Let's get back to basics. Audio reproduction systems are here to play music. As anyone who listens regularly to live music will attest, music brings enjoyment, and liberates the soul. If you are not getting that feeling at home, you have just selected the wrong equipment. Tubes do not colour the sound. Tubes just bring out the essence of music, the soul, much better than any other amplification method. That sense is what you need to seek. Viren

Couldn't put it in a better way myself Virenji.

Though I am kind of a tube hybrid follower.
I don't care if a system is neutral or not, warm dark, whatever. It should play the music in a way that it captivates me and enraptures me.

viren schrieb:

Tubes do not colour the sound. Tubes just bring out the essence of music, the soul, much better than any other amplification method.

Hello Viren,
I am absolutely with you on this. Tubes when implemented well and without the purpose of artificially sweetening the sound can actually give out some of the purest music and truest tones!! You really know that this is "real". There is all the warmth and sweetness thats associated with the real instruments. The resolution, warmth and timbre are all presented in one harmonious body...you hear everything at a time...and the whole thing is just so rich and soulful !!! You would normally hate to add anything to this recipe.

But unfortunately many a times tubes are used (misused ?) to do something else!! They are put in the signal path in a manner to deliberately "cook" the signal. Cook it to a point after which everything just sounds the same...Warmmmm and Round!!!! This is a "mask" which can be made to wear on any incoming signal..after which the signal has lost its originality. All you hear is the "mask".
One of the classic illustration of this is the "Unison Research Unico" line of equipments. I have heard their CDPs and amps....absolute disaster!!! They have utilized tubes to kill music in the sweetest possible way .
But they are well reviewed .

I suppose one has to be careful while buying a tube equipment and be very sure about the intent of the designer.

Thanks a lot for the views....

Toe In / Out is what I can try in the coming few weeks...

Viren's comments questioned if the system does play 'Music' at all ... Well I am quite happy about the set up... To say the least, its way better than the Krell and Amaya and the VA1 set up I had earlier (since thats the only exp I have with me)....I have begun listening to music that I like ...

Tube Amplification or any sort of equipment for me right now is difficult to try out ....

Its not High End at all if one doesn't get High in the End....

Regards

HP

Hercule..whats your setup like these days ?

Source: Slim Devices SB3 / Xbox Digital Outs
DAC and Pre: TacT 2.0S Room Correction
Power Amp: Acoustic Reality eAR1001 Ref
Speakers: Salk Sound HT3

Viren,

Spot on sir, spot on,


Manek

herculepirate

Its not High End at all if one doesn't get High in the End....

I like that A LOT !

herculepirate schrieb:

Source: Slim Devices SB3 / Xbox Digital Outs DAC and Pre: TacT 2.0S Room Correction Power Amp: Acoustic Reality eAR1001 Ref Speakers: Salk Sound HT3

you definitely do not need a tube Buffer....a separate DAC connected to the Tact might give you a smoother sound though

Nice Speakers and Amp !

herculepirate schrieb:

Source: Slim Devices SB3 / Xbox Digital Outs DAC and Pre: TacT 2.0S Room Correction Power Amp: Acoustic Reality eAR1001 Ref Speakers: Salk Sound HT3

I know what your problem is: it's the TacT 2.0S Room Correction unit. I'm pretty certain!
My friend used to own this unit & while it was great for doing room correction (he brought it over & measured my room & even played music thru it after we measured the room & I could hear the effects of removing the bass overhang) it's weakest link is its internal DAC. They are average quality at best - the concentration was the room correction & the electronics for playback seemed like an afterthought. I was in touch w/ another audiophile in New Zealand who also owned this TacT 2.0S room correction unit at the very same time my local friend did.
Shortly after my local friend measured my room, he sold the unit off & shortly after that my audio friend in NZ also sold his unit off too. Both cited that the sound was very digital & was lacking ambience.
I feel that you are experiencing the same symptoms.!

Hell...Could be..,

But the Room Correction is a Big plus...For me at least...
I may need to look into a DAC and Preamplifer...

Regards

HP

Hi,

Couldn't put it in a better way myself Virenji. "I don't care if a system is neutral or not, warm dark, whatever. It should play the music in a way that it captivates me and enraptures me."

I concur 100%.

Regards
Rajiv

hercule,

there are a few dacs and preamp combo's available nowadays....like the benchmark dac 1, there is an advance acoustic model etc.

i wish the benchmark could be heard in india.

manek

I understand that this thread is not about a system upgrade. but I remain convinced ( as I have mentioned in another thread) that at (probably) below any price point with a list price of US 5000 for the source, a CD player FAR Outstrips the performance of a separate DAC and Computer playout or playout thru the Slim Devices SB or similar device.

I know that there are many on this forum that will strongly disagree with me, but I maintain my stand.

Hence if you Do intend to spend money, me thinks a good CD player source will provide you the most significant improvement....

Just my (obtuse ? ) 2 cents...

bombaywalla schrieb:

herculepirate schrieb: Source: Slim Devices SB3 / Xbox Digital Outs DAC and Pre: TacT 2.0S Room Correction Power Amp: Acoustic Reality eAR1001 Ref Speakers: Salk Sound HT3 I know what your problem is: it's the TacT 2.0S Room Correction unit. I'm pretty certain! My friend used to own this unit & while it was great for doing room correction (he brought it over & measured my room & even played music thru it after we measured the room & I could hear the effects of removing the bass overhang) it's weakest link is its internal DAC. They are average quality at best - the concentration was the room correction & the electronics for playback seemed like an afterthought. I was in touch w/ another audiophile in New Zealand who also owned this TacT 2.0S room correction unit at the very same time my local friend did. Shortly after my local friend measured my room, he sold the unit off & shortly after that my audio friend in NZ also sold his unit off too. Both cited that the sound was very digital & was lacking ambience. I feel that you are experiencing the same symptoms.! :.

If this indeed is the problem, then perhaps you could look into the Metric Halo ULN2 D2.

From what i have heard and read it is supposed to a phenomenal DAC and processor.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I understand that this thread is not about a system upgrade. but I remain convinced ( as I have mentioned in another thread) that at (probably) below any price point with a list price of US 5000 for the source, a CD player FAR Outstrips the performance of a separate DAC and Computer playout or playout thru the Slim Devices SB or similar device. I know that there are many on this forum that will strongly disagree with me, but I maintain my stand. Hence if you Do intend to spend money, me thinks a good CD player source will provide you the most significant improvement.... Just my (obtuse ? ) 2 cents... :L

I agree with you fully. have chaged my view on it as well. i believe a "Loss" happens in the process of conversion to SPDIF, transmission of SPDIF and the receipt of SPDIF and then the analogue conversion.
an I2S format would correct it to some extent although transmission losses would still remain.

A CDP can avoid a lot of the above errors ....

Like any potent medicine, Digital Room Correction has its own side effects.... some feel that the cure is worse than the disease....

I was just discussing a few days ago with a friend, who strongly felt at at price points upto Rs 1.5 Lakhs, a Turntable + Arm + cartridge performance FAR Outstrips that of a similarly priced CD player.

The reason he spoke only upto Rs 1.5 Lakhs, was that was the price of his most Expensive TT + Arm + cartridge that he sells in India, and therefore has intimate knowledge of the sound.

Ofcourse, few records available in India... so that is a drawback.

On the other hand I can see why you - herculepirate - have stayed with HDD playback...

HHAHAHA - Well Caught....
I have most of my Music on HDD
"Hercule Pirate"
The amount flexibility that the Slim Devices / Xbox gives me is Tremendous ....
No turning back for me....

Regards

HP

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I was just discussing a few days ago with a friend, who strongly felt at at price points upto Rs 1.5 Lakhs, a Turntable + Arm + cartridge performance FAR Outstrips that of a similarly priced CD player.

Sir, I had once mentioned that a TT (excluding phono stage) costing 30-35k can take on CDPs costing 200k...I still stand by that .

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I was just discussing a few days ago with a friend, who strongly felt at at price points upto Rs 1.5 Lakhs, a Turntable + Arm + cartridge performance FAR Outstrips that of a similarly priced CD player. The reason he spoke only upto Rs 1.5 Lakhs, was that was the price of his most Expensive TT + Arm + cartridge that he sells in India, and therefore has intimate knowledge of the sound. Ofcourse, few records available in India... so that is a drawback. On the other hand I can see why you - herculepirate - have stayed with HDD playback... :L

Abhi.pani schrieb:

Sir, I had once mentioned that a TT (excluding phono stage) costing 30-35k can take on CDPs costing 200k...I still stand by that .

I'm happy to see that there are some enlightened members in this forum!!
(to be taken light-heartedly).
On many other forums, these same words have been written countless times & mostly with conviction.
For TT playback geography does play a big role & that aspect is not in India's favour, sadly!

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Like any potent medicine, Digital Room Correction has its own side effects.... some feel that the cure is worse than the disease.... :(

well said Amp_Nut!
my 2 friends certainly thought so! I know that Bhagwan69 has toyed w/ the idea of getting a Rives PARC - don't know if he made good on that or not??

Hi,

There are a couple of brand new(boxed) DEQX room correction/speaker correction(equaliser?) processers available for sale in Madras.

The seller was asking Rs.85,000/- each.

If anyone is interested I can give you his contact details.

Regards
Rajiv

herculepirate dont worry when I said :

.... some feel that the cure is worse than the disease....

We ALL are addicted to our poisons...

For some of us, its tubes, for others SS Slam.... the list is endless...