Power cables: A different view of on impact of power on components

I had an old HP Inkjet printer that was unrepairable. Fortunately its external Power supply and the HP Power Cord were OK. The HP power cord is slightly thicker than the usual IEC Computer cords, is what I've noticed. As this was a piece of junk, just out of curiosity I replaced my Pre amp Power cord with this HP Power Cord and the sonic difference was real.

Those of you having HP printers may try out this little excercise.

Behram

Interesting Article;

I would love to know what PC are used by our Forum Members ?
Apart from Printer Cords - sorry Behram - just kidding....

Seriously speaking, have other members used different PC's & 'heard' a difference ??

I have a few [many] lying around. You guys are most welcome to borrow for audition purposes if interested.

i have used (and use) a DH labs, a Tara Labs and a chinese made Xindak power chord.
still working out the combinations on what with the source and what with the amp !

Arj,

when I spoke to someone in the audio industry that I respect & who products speak for themselves, I was informed that Shunyata power cords sucked big time!! I was told that they bloated all the parts of the audio spectrum thereby giving a false interpretation of the music being played.
I've never used one myself so this IS 2nd-hand knowledge.


I do agree with the Shunyata that power cords do make a difference (& I have been able to hear the difference myself in my own system).
What I've discovered/found is that power cords that are soft/spongy when you try to press them between your fingers are the worst kind - they bloat some or all parts of the audio spectrum. The sound might be to your liking at 1st but long-term the sound will be much coloured.

If you want to read more on Power Cords & Power conditioners then there is a more humbler fellow by the name of Mike vanEvers (who also makes respectable audio gear) who also has much to say about these 2 items. Here is a link to his website & some of the techno-babble (to quote Mike vanEvers):
http://www.vansevers.com/technical.html

Of particular interest are #2 & #4

Hi all,
Interesting reading, but somehow am not convinced by most of the scientific explanations. May be science is yet to find out what they should measure or investigate

Yes I have tried a few cords and found that CD and Pre amps most sensitive to PC changes. Switching OFF the CD even changes the Vinyl system playback !!
Have tried Taralabs, VDH and a JPS, all sounded different.
I felt that to take better advantage of these PC I have to upgrade my system to higher level.

Regards
Anil

what i liked about the article was the idea that it is the last 1M which is the most important and that it is the electrical isolation (or the lack of it) which can cause issues in the power.

i have always been thinking of it only in terms of the purity of input power..but that should be pretty well negated by a good good rectfier in the component.

Interesting to note that the from the component’s perspective the power cord is the first 6ft of wire it sees.

Cords always made a difference in my system. Some for the better while some screwed up.

While I an a believer that Power Cords and cables change the sound of a sufficiently resolving system, the reasons stated by Caelin Gabriel do not convince me.

Whether the wire is the 1st 3 feet or the last 3 feet of a 100 mile lenght, makes no difference ... since ALL the feet are in SERIES...

What goes in at one end of a series connection has to come out the other end, and flow in Exactly the same quatity throughout the zillion feet.

That is why a 2 inch length of fuse wire will protect 1 KM or whatever, of wire, connected to an appliance. And it does not matter a fig whether the fuse wire is located in the 1st 3 feet or the last last 3 feet or whatever.

Ofcourse, the Nebulus explanation of EM etc etc without a firm scientific ( as we know it ) explanation is hardly faith inducing from a company selling Rs 50K of power cord...

I share ani's view that "May be science is yet to find out what they should measure or investigate."


For my part, I am still looking for a convincing scientific explanation, for what I hear, from Power Cords.

bhagwan69 said :

I would love to know what PC are used by our Forum Members ?

Power Cord to my Denon 2900 Universal Player : Cardas Gold

Power Cord to my Prima Luna PL2 Integrated Amp : Audio Power Industries 313.

bombaywalla schrieb:

Here is a link to his website & some of the techno-babble (to quote Mike vanEvers): http://www.vansevers.com/technical.html

A super-informative site even for lo-fi laypersons such as myself. It has provided many enlightening hours of reading. Thank you very much!

Some time ago on this very forum someone had put up a link of a site that shows the complete circuit diagram of an isolation transformer with centre tapped secondary and associated filter circuitry on the secondary winding. The forum member had high regards for its performance.

I tried to do a "Search" but cannot locate that thread. Could someone help me out please ?

Thanks in advance.
Behram.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Ofcourse, the Nebulus explanation of EM etc etc without a firm scientific ( as we know it ) explanation is hardly faith inducing from a company selling Rs 50K of power cord...

I share these sentiments, Amp_Nut!!

Interesting timing;

I just received 3 PC's from Transparent Audio this morning.

http://transparentca...inkmm_powercord.html

They are in customs, I should get them by Monday. I will replace the 'Jorma Design' with this & try to listen for a difference.

I plan to use them on the CD & Pre Amplifier [is that OK ?]
I only have 3, so power amp will have to pass. My pre amp needs 2 power cords.

I wonder if the cables will make any difference.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

I wonder if the cables will make any difference. :cut

we shall all await with bated breaths to find out your results

bhagwan69 wrote

My pre amp needs 2 power cords.

Why so ?

I am assuming separate layouts per channel ?

Arj schrieb:

I am assuming separate layouts per channel ?

Yes;
You are correct.
Left & Right channels have seperate chasis. 2 for AC to DC & 2 for Pre Amplification.

Hence the 2 power supplies need 2 power cords. 1 for the left & the other for the right. Both are seperate - chassis - i.e.
Basically the pre amp is in 4 parts. Left Power & Right Power & Left Pre & Right Pre.
The Power Supply to the Pre has its own umbillical cord for pure DC. I think.

I will hook this up on Monday & let you know.

If anyone in Mumbai wants to try the cables out, I would be more than willing to lend them for a few days. However, the termination is Euro Schucko [had them specially ordered] so you will need a female Schucko to use this cord. Else the ground / earth will not connect.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

I will hook this up on Monday & let you know.

Hello Bhagwan69,

we eargerly await your 1st impression of the Tranparent Audio cables.
which model did you buy?

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Basically the pre amp is in 4 parts. Left Power & Right Power & Left Pre & Right Pre. The Power Supply to the Pre has its own umbillical cord for pure DC. I think. I will hook this up on Monday & let you know.

sir, you have now taken the curiosity over the results a notch higher.
what is your opinion on the sensitivity to power cables for your pre ?
while power is unarguably the most sensitive in the source and the pre, the dual mono setup with separate PSUs should make differences in powerchords very limited ??

do let us know your results !!!

we eargerly await your 1st impression of the Tranparent Audio cables. which model did you buy?

Hello Sir !
I had posted the link in my earlier post:
http://www.hifi-foru.../power/powerlinkmm_A

This is the 'best' PC that TA makes.
The PowerLink MM with Euro Schucko Connectors.

Sure will let you know how it turns out.

[quote]while power is unarguably the most sensitive in the source and the pre, the dual mono setup with separate PSUs should make differences in powerchords very limited ??
[/quote]

Sir, you are very correct in your observation.
Since there is 'so much' issolation [physical] in the pre amplifier, a power cord change should not make any / much difference........
Unless, we go by what Shunyata's boss has to say;
The PC is the 1st entry into your component & the last exit from your component..............

All said, the fruit of the pudding is in the eating.
The Pudding has been made & shall be served on Monday / Tuesday. I shall eat it, share it with others & then decide, if it was worth it [financially & otherwise] !!!!

At the risk of sounding obtuse, I beg to differ.

I would speculate the following, all IMHO ofcourse

1. Physically and electrically separating 2 stereo channels in a Pre Amp will improve Isololation, reduce cross talk, improve imaging etc.

2, It will NOT improve Transient response, bass slam, quality of treble and mid-range, fluidity of sound, tonal balance & cohieveness etc.

The power cords to the Pre will not affect performance parameters outlined in point 1.

The Power Cords WILL (IMHO Ofcourse) impact the Performance parameters indicated in Point 2; above.

So I wait with baited breath for Bhagwan69's verdict

Interesting - the way you put it.
Will keep you guys posted......

The PowerLink MM is a 2 meter, 10 AWG, high current capability, grounded power cord which is precision constructed of heavy, solid core OFHC conductors for greater power handling. Teflon insulation and three shields help reduce noise. The carefully-designed network circuit rejects RF noise. The cord is UL and CE approved for high voltage, high heat applications; it is available with 15- or 20-amp IEC connectors. The PowerLink MM allows high current, high powered amplifiers to achieve all the dynamic ease, punch, clarity, and neutrality of which they are capable. Its sturdy construction, termination integrity, and noise blocking technology make it a safe and musically satisfying alternative to standard and audiophile grade power cords. The PowerLink MM power cord has a network module, like those on Transparent analog interconnects and speaker cables, to reduce high frequency noise. This network is a far more effective noise reducer and sounds far more neutral than the "cable alone" approach of audiophile power cords. Many audiophile cords have resonances that actually increase the impact of noise in the frequency areas affected by these resonances. The effect may be euphonic, but these euphonic distortions prevent you from hearing your favorite music as it was recorded. Transparent PowerLink MM cords are truly transparent.

I do use a transparen MM+ speaker wire with the network box. not sure of what it does over another cable i use the Goertz MI2 which is a low inductance/high capacitance cable..

but again speaker cables behave differently to power cables

Reference MM Speaker Cable (Printer Friendly Version) Reference MM Speaker Cable consists of many heavy strands of individually insulated oxygen-free copper. Reference MM displays ideal low noise, low resonance and low distortion properties in audio signal applications. Reference MM achieves these qualities because of the strengths of MM Technology, which represents a complete redesign of over 300 audio cables in our line: new strand size, new tighter-spec components, improvements to layout, more effective damping, and new network housings. Transparent's flagship OPUS MM cables were the first to introduce the new streamline shape in an incredibly stiff, lightweight, and costly carbon fiber shell. Using the OPUS MM shape as a model, Transparent focused on using more cost effective nonmetallic materials in the rest of the MM line-up that could be molded or machined to achieve this new shape. The finest example of this is Reference MM, which shares electrical characteristics with OPUS MM and uses the same damped suspension and adjustable feet to decouple the network from room borne resonance.

Sir, the cable you use is near reference level. In fact it is 1 step below the 'opus'
This is a very very serious cable.
Could we exchange cables for a few days ?
I would love to hear this cable in my set up.
I could give you my Argento VDM Reference is exchange for a week or so.

http://transparentcable.com/products/audio/ref_mm_spkcable.html

What speaker do you use this cable with ? It retails @ 15 K US ++ for a 3 M set.....

Arj schrieb:

I do use a transparen MM+ speaker wire with the network box. not sure of what it does over another cable i use the Goertz MI2 which is a low inductance/high capacitance cable.. but again speaker cables behave differently to power cables

Is this the cable that you use :-



I sure would love to hear it; serious.
In my chain, i.e. I have auditioned it elsewhere [well the opus] but in my set up, would be a golden chance.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Sir, the cable you use is near reference level. In fact it is 1 step below the 'opus' This is a very very serious cable. Could we exchange cables for a few days ? I would love to hear this cable in my set up. I could give you my Argento VDM Reference is exchange for a week or so. http://transparentcable.com/products/audio/ref_mm_spkcable.html What speaker do you use this cable with ? It retails @ 15 K US ++ for a 3 M set.....

Sir you are scaring me ! my entire system does not cost that much.
what i use is the older version of the MusicWave plus 8" . it is only 2 levels above the entry level.
(i should have written it as MW+ not MM+ which i wrote..My Mistake)



http://www.transparentcable.com/products/audio/plus_spkcable.html

the reason i liked them is that they apparently finetune the dielectric and impedence to keep the response curve the same across all the different lengths unlike regular bul wire..but of course no proof of it is available

oh oh !!

How much difference a MW & MM can make.

Sorry Sir.
I was under the wrong impression.

please do not apologise..was my error.
yes a W and M can make all the difference

This may take a while;

I still have to get my speakers to play to a level that satisfies [ ], before I make any changes. The positions are still being experimented with. Once I am set with that, I will change the power cords.
Currently I dropped the PC's off to another friends place.
Will get it back on Saturday.
Does any one else want to try them out ? In Bombay preferrably.......do let me know, I sure could lend them out for a few days.

Heard a difference last night !!

I had lrnt my PC's to another friend.

Went to his place last evening.

Switeched between vdH & TA and this was done only on the Power Amplifiers & the difference was apparent.
Switch it On too was present.

Got so me Valhalla Power Cords back to try. Would like to compare that with the Powerlink MM.

Unfortunately, termination is US [on the Nordost], so will have to figure something out.....

P.S. I gave 3 PC's to Behram to try out too. He will write about it soon, I hope.........

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Heard a difference last night !! I had lrnt my PC's to another friend. Went to his place last evening. Switeched between vdH & TA and this was done only on the Power Amplifiers & the difference was apparent. Switch it On too was present. Got so me Valhalla Power Cords back to try. Would like to compare that with the Powerlink MM. Unfortunately, termination is US [on the Nordost], so will have to figure something out..... P.S. I gave 3 PC's to Behram to try out too. He will write about it soon, I hope.........

Man, you are messing with some top-of-line stuff!!!
lucky fellow!

Hello 'B' !

How are you ?

To be truthful to you, was never a believer in PC's

I/C's & Speaker Cables make a difference - sure - that is very very easy to know.
PC's would make such a big difference, I heard for the 1st time.

I had personally moved over from vdH to Jorma Design some 3 years back and last year upgraded the connectors [termination] to Oyaide. I had never planned to 'spend' this kind of money on PC's

But, what happened last night, astonished me. The difference was 'chalk & cheese'

Now, I shall do the Nordost Valhalla & Transparent Cable PowerLink Super Power Cord comparison on a CD Player & then put in the MM & check again.

This has really become interesting !!!

Man, you are messing with some top-of-line stuff!!! lucky fellow!

Sir, I shall use the words, 'Poor Fellow' instead. The Cables are bleeding me. The cost is prohibitive.
The problem is that the difference can be 'heard' so you can't even walk away..........

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Sir, I shall use the words, 'Poor Fellow' instead.

Wah bhai wah, Poor Fellow uses a PC worth rs 80,000/-. (20k more and one can buy the new Tata Nano car)

Id sure like to be poor as you bhagwanji.

Regards
SNV

The actual problem is I need 6 of them.
I got 3 to try, but I will have to buy 6 for all the equipment. 2 for Pre + 2 for Power & 2 for CD Player.

All this will surely make me very very poor and in debt !!!!

Id sure like to be poor as you bhagwanji.

Do not wish for it, it is not a pleasant state to be in - trust me.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

The actual problem is I need 6 of them. I got 3 to try, but I will have to buy 6 for all the equipment. 2 for Pre + 2 for Power & 2 for CD Player. All this will surely make me very very poor and in debt !!!!

yup! the dual mono implemenatation thru out the chain sure makes buying expensive power cords a PROHIBITIVE bill!!

Personally, I have 5 PCs that I would need to swap out should I decide to. It's the FAT bill that has kept me from doing so.......

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Hello 'B' ! How are you ? To be truthful to you, was never a believer in PC's I/C's & Speaker Cables make a difference - sure - that is very very easy to know. PC's would make such a big difference, I heard for the 1st time. I had personally moved over from vdH to Jorma Design some 3 years back and last year upgraded the connectors [termination] to Oyaide. I had never planned to 'spend' this kind of money on PC's But, what happened last night, astonished me. The difference was 'chalk & cheese' Now, I shall do the Nordost Valhalla & Transparent Cable PowerLink Super Power Cord comparison on a CD Player & then put in the MM & check again. This has really become interesting !!! Man, you are messing with some top-of-line stuff!!! lucky fellow! Sir, I shall use the words, 'Poor Fellow' instead. The Cables are bleeding me. The cost is prohibitive. The problem is that the difference can be 'heard' so you can't even walk away..........

Bhawanji,
I am fine, Sir! Thank you for asking.

Indeed, PCs do make a difference. The diff is system dependent & AC power quality dependent.
AC power-wise, for me, the eye-opener was the wall outlet! I never believed that it could make a diff until I went to a friend's house & we heard the sonic differences among the cheap outlets that builders put when the build a house, a non-cryo treated Hubbel 5363, a cryo treated Hubbell 5363 & a Wattgate. Boy, did that listening session totally change my opinion on this matter or what??

Personally, I have 5 PCs that I would need to swap out should I decide to. It's the FAT bill that has kept me from doing so.......

Sir, same problem @ my end.
I never used 'super expensive' PC's for this same reason. I deally I should have gone in for the Argento Flow, that would have completed my set, however, each PC is 2.5 K EURO.
I dropped the idea & looked @ American Options instead.

I have gotten 3 so far, I need to get 3 more.

This will have to be done; The difference is too much to ignore..............trust me. I hate the results - sure makes me loose / spend more money & I definately do not like it.

p.s. I will go and listen to the Nordost Valhalla & TA [entry level] PC on Sunday.

Bombaywalla said :

differences among the cheap outlets that builders put when the build a house, a non-cryo treated Hubbel 5363, a cryo treated Hubbell 5363 & a Wattgate. Boy, did that listening session totally change my opinion on this matter or what??

Do tell us more.

I have always been a firm believer in Power Cords, I believe it generally has the more impact on Non Valve equipment ..

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Bombaywalla said : differences among the cheap outlets that builders put when the build a house, a non-cryo treated Hubbel 5363, a cryo treated Hubbell 5363 & a Wattgate. Boy, did that listening session totally change my opinion on this matter or what?? Do tell us more. I have always been a firm believer in Power Cords, I believe it generally has the more impact on Non Valve equipment ..

Me too curious about this one....
Hi Bombaywalla, did your friend change the entire wiring or just the connectors/sockets ??

p.s. I will go and listen to the Nordost Valhalla & TA [entry level] PC on Sunday.

I did this test on Saturday;

We used a Transparent Canle - Power Link Super Power Cord
http://transparentcable.com/products/power/powerlink_super.html
against a Nordost Valahalla Power Cord
http://nordost.com/index.php?id=340
against a PS Audio Power Cord
I do not recollect the model... sorry

We only changed it on the CD Player.

There were 3 of us present, Deaf + Switch it on & myself.

The difference was apparent.
The PS Audio was out classed in less than 1 second.

The Transparent Audio Power Cord was better than the Nordost 3 : 0 vote. All of us preferred the TA PC over the Nordost Valhalla PC.

Deaf may shed some light on the details of the test.

The TA PC we used in this test was the 3rd from the top.

I did not take my MM PC's there [termination issue].

Basically the 3rd best TA was better than the Best from Nordost.
If we were to compare the MM to the Valhalla, it would be a wash out.

Actually I am working on borrowing a few cords from Siltech, G6 - Ruby Mountain.
I have begged for it. If they come, I shall test it against the TA Pc - MM's.
That will make for a very very interesting observation.

The problem is the termination.

I use Euro Schucko,
The Siltech G-6's [SATT done] are UK Termination.

Hence, the testing procedure is not easy & streamlined.
Or correct for that matter.

If they come, I will let you guys know, how it turned out...........

bhagwan69 schrieb:

p.s. I will go and listen to the Nordost Valhalla & TA [entry level] PC on Sunday. I did this test on Saturday; We used a Transparent Canle - Power Link Super Power Cord http://transparentcable.com/products/power/powerlink_super.html against a Nordost Valahalla Power Cord http://nordost.com/index.php?id=340 against a PS Audio Power Cord I do not recollect the model... sorry We only changed it on the CD Player. There were 3 of us present, Deaf + Switch it on & myself. The difference was apparent. The PS Audio was out classed in less than 1 second. The Transparent Audio Power Cord was better than the Nordost 3 : 0 vote. All of us preferred the TA PC over the Nordost Valhalla PC. Deaf may shed some light on the details of the test.

Thanx for the PC shoot-out details, Bhagwan69.
Interesting results indeed - the 3rd-from-the-top Transparent Audio PC bested the top-of-the-line Nordost.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Amp_Nut schrieb: Bombaywalla said : differences among the cheap outlets that builders put when the build a house, a non-cryo treated Hubbel 5363, a cryo treated Hubbell 5363 & a Wattgate. Boy, did that listening session totally change my opinion on this matter or what?? Do tell us more. I have always been a firm believer in Power Cords, I believe it generally has the more impact on Non Valve equipment .. Me too curious about this one.... Hi Bombaywalla, did your friend change the entire wiring or just the connectors/sockets ??

Amp_Nut, Abhijit,

Not much more to say other than I am firm believer that quality of wall outlets has a (profound) impact on the overall sonics.
I've found that wall outlets MUST have pure brass in their construction. Any Nickel/Zinc plating makes the sound brittle & edgy. If you are listening to CD music, you'll get a bad case of digitis with those Nickel/Zinc plated outlets - I did!
On top of this, cryo treated wall outlets sound even better (truer tonal timbral accuracy, better tonal balance, speakers disappearing in the room) than non-cryo'd outlets.
One warning - good quality outlets can be costly - take a look at the offering from Furutech, Oyaide, Wattgate to get a feel!
I've found that they are worth it despite that!

My friend has dedicated wiring to this audio room. So, he changed both - wiring & wall outlets. Maximum positive impact!
Same case for my audio set up.

Just got my 3 PC's
Installed them into the rack 45 mins back.
The damn 'box' is too big. Occupies too much space !!!

The difference is too apparent.
I have only put the cables on the Pre & CD.
Power Amp is still on the Jorma Design.

However, the diiference is too much too miss.
The 'Noise Floor' has dropped by 'miles'
The 'grunje' has moved away. Sound stage has gone back - signigicantly.

You may not miss the PC if it was not is your set up, however all said, if you had to go back to the older PC's after the PLMM - boy that will be very very difficult.
Trust Me; well if you don't, cool drop by and listen for your self. I will be ready to do the swap and demonstrate !!!

Bhagwab, What brand are they? All 3 same or diff brands?
Have you ever tried Chris's PCs (VH Audio, US).

ALS schrieb:

Bhagwab, What brand are they? All 3 same or diff brands?

It is :-
PowerLink MM Power Cord
All 3 are the same - Euro Schucko Termination - 2M long.

This is the Link :-

http://transparentca...inkmm_powercord.html

Have you ever tried Chris's PCs (VH Audio, US).

No sir, never tried this.
I used to use Jorma Design - Sweden prior to this.

ALS schrieb:

Bhagwab, What brand are they? All 3 same or diff brands? Have you ever tried Chris's PCs (VH Audio, US).

ALS,

Ahem!...
Bhagwan is playing in a very top-notch field - he has the top-of-the-line Transparent Audio power cable. It's expensive! & that's an understatement.

The VH Audio power cables simply do not play in that league!

The VH Audio power cables simply do not play in that league!

Hello Bombaywala !

I have never heard the VH Audio products;
Are they good ?
You see, more often 'prices' are no indication of the product quality. More a function of Marketing Cost & Designers Ego'
Hence, it is not correct to judge the performance of products by their price !!!!

I have auditioned so many products at different places in different times & they are rather expensive [at least from my point of view] and they do not even sound average !!! Case in point being MBL. Below par......

So if a VH Audio cord is good, I sure am ready to listen to it.

All said, this PLMM is a 'serious' PC. May be bloody expensive - cheaper than the Siltech [this is what I actually wanted - Ruby Mountain] - but there is a difference & it is very very 'audible'
Simply like a component upgrade !!! Please do not bash me for saying that !