Tube PreAmp and SS Power Amp

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herculepirate
Stammgast
#1 erstellt: 22. Apr 2007, 23:43
Hi
I am presently an owner of an awesome set of Electrostatic Speakers called the Cadence Amaya
I tried out a Hybrid Amplifier called "Jolida 1501 RC"...which introduced me to a possibility of having a Tube Pre amp and a Solid State Power Amp combination...
I heard the Cadence VA1 and it sounded great on Jazz but on when i t came to punchy music it fell short of sharpness...all the drum notes seemed rounded...
I listen to Rock and Jazz Rock..hence i need the clarity and the punch that the SS can offer and the Warmth and feel that the Tube can give...
Now some say that i shouldnt mix Tube and SS in the Pre and Power Combination..while others say i shouldnt mix brands in the Pre and Power combination.
Can you please suggest me an Tube Pre Amp and a Solid State Power amp...or any other brands in a pre and power amplifier combination ....
I am not sure how a Tube Pre amp is gonna sound with a SS power amp...I hope it has all the sharpness I heard on the Jolida 1501RC....or the possibility of a Hybrid Pre amp...
I am looking at Jolida, Consonance, Vincent Audio....and in SS Power amps I am looking at the QUAD 909...
Any suggestions on this TUBE SS combinations and other brands to look into...
Presently i have a Kenwood KM-X1000 power amp (130rms PC)...so I will be running the Pre amp on this before I run into the Power amp...
Please Advice
Thanks
Alwyn
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 23. Apr 2007, 04:37
I have had the Amayas ( I think ... the now discontinued model ? ) at my place for about 2 weeks, in Jan this year.

The Speakers ROCKED { I also mean on Rock music } with my Prima Luna Provlgue 2 Valve integrated amp.

However I am not sure if the PL-2 is available in India, any more.

Abroad its priced at approx US $ 1400.
Manek
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 23. Apr 2007, 05:10
hi I treid the quad 909 with my tube pre which is the AES AE-3 made by cary audio with all the oilcap, pot, diode upgrades done.

Its just did not make music. Secondly the sensitivity of the amp did not match my pre....volume upto 10 oclock brought out distortion. Its not the fault of the poweramp as 909 is a fine amp. My tube pre wants a 20K+ input impedance,
1v > sensitivity to say the least.

so matching tube pre's with an ss is not a cakewalk. but find the right combo and you will be pleasantly surprised.....

Manek.
herculepirate
Stammgast
#4 erstellt: 23. Apr 2007, 05:19
Amp Nut...Manek thanks for the feedback...
I heard the Cadence VA1 and didnt like rock or punch stuff on it casue the clarity was not there ..i mean the drum notes were rounded .... u know what i mean....
i heard Journey on the VA1 and then Jolida...hell the jolida rocked to glory...
heard the nuforce and rotel but on B&W and amrtin logan...didnt really like them..
any more feedback
would like to hear your PL's
square_wave
Inventar
#5 erstellt: 23. Apr 2007, 05:59
Manek,
What is the output impedance of your preamp ?
square_wave
Inventar
#6 erstellt: 23. Apr 2007, 06:03
Hi herculepirate,
For preamps, you should be looking at Rogue audio and also our home grown Acoustic portrait too.
I am on the same boat. Tube pre from acoustic portrait and SS amp.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#7 erstellt: 23. Apr 2007, 07:08


herculepirate said:

would like to hear your PL's



Most welcome. I am in Mumbai. PM me for a time convenient to you.

Bring Your Own Music !

Cheers
Manek
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 23. Apr 2007, 07:18
square...my output impedance is rated at 560Ohms according to the spec sheet

Hercule, another way to circumnavigate this problem is to have a buffer stage between the pre and power which will regulate your impedances but will also increase on pair of IC's. Some people do that as well. dont know who sells buffer stages here.

manek.
herculepirate
Stammgast
#9 erstellt: 23. Apr 2007, 23:45
Square ... whats you config..
Acoustic Potrait Pre Amp and what make SS AMP
If thats the case I will have to go the Hybrid way...
Does the amount of valves indicate the warmth in the sound???
I am gonna be looking at Jolida Hybrid Integrated
Consonance..but the sound smiths in Mumbai dont have their Tube Pre's nor the Hybrid integrated.
Also looking at a great german brand called Vincent Audio for their Integrated Hybrids and Hybrid Pre amps
My intension with this whole Valve/Hybrid thing is a warm rich and detailed sound....so if there is a SS which will give me so ..i happy to hear that too
Sound Smith wants me to try out the Cambridge Audio 840A
and some has suggested the Arcam FMJ series..A22 i think
anyway...also if they is such a Valve amp that will give me sharp notes instead of the rounded notes and also speed i will happy to hear that one too...
AmpNut..i have no clue what music u listen to...are satisfied with the sharpness in tone...u know what i mean..
Manek ..what config are you on now??? since u abandoned the Tube Pre and SS Power idea?
thanks
alwyn
Alwynpinto@gmail.com
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#10 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 03:01


AmpNut..i have no clue what music u listen to...are satisfied with the sharpness in tone...u know what i mean..


YUP !

I listen to mainly classic Rock... Floyd, Dire Straits, ....

Many Valve amps like the PL-2 also are open to 'Tube Rolling" where tubes are swapped to create a somewhat different sound ( eg sharper, or more mellow ) to suit the individual system & listner.

If you are in Mumbai, you are welcome to drop in for a listen. Devote time to listning to as many different amps / systems as you can get access... will minimise the chance of U you wanting to change soon after a purchase.
Arj
Inventar
#11 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 03:47

Manek schrieb:
dont know who sells buffer stages here.



Musical Fidelity does do that..some MIC cos also seem to have this.

Would suggest getting a schematic and either DIY it yourself or get it made commercially by and enthusiast as it is not really complex, and if done well can be a good "Impedance matcher"

purists do not like tube buffers as it does introduce a some gain and also you are adding one more component into the chain..

I have usedthe older MF tube buffer and was ok with it especially when the source was not "Audiophile Grade" (iPOD, DVD p etc)
Shahrukh
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 04:28

herculepirate schrieb:
also if they is such a Valve amp that will give me sharp notes instead of the rounded notes and also speed


The chef recommends KT88s with your valve amp, sir!

herculepirate schrieb:
AmpNut..i have no clue what music u listen to...are satisfied with the sharpness in tone...u know what i mean..


You'll like amp's amp/system. It seems to be just up your creek. What say Amp?
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#13 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 04:52
YUP !

And when Alwyn mellows... (I am probably going down that path ) can tube roll to the 6550 output tube from the KT-88.


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 24. Apr 2007, 04:53 bearbeitet]
stevieboy
Stammgast
#14 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 05:45
hi alwyn,

if you're in bangalore and want to listen to all valves made by viren, pm me. i've got his single driver speakers and his 15 watt valve amp. i listen to rock. deep purple, iron maiden, jeff beck, led zep, hendrix.. 70s rock mostly. with a little jazz and blues too. 70s pop also. abba etc... cant stand the modern pop. i've heard the cadence va 1 and the jolida too and the jolida sounded better to me.

regards
abhi.pani
Inventar
#15 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 06:21
Buddy Alwyn,
I strongly feel Arcam will do the trick for you. The tubey sound you are looking combined with solid state punch is something Arcam is known for. Instead of trying to mix and match tube-pre+SS power which in itself is not that easy, I would suggest look at Integrated amps with similar character...it would work out cheaper and sound much more coherent. Believe me nowadays there are quite a few SS amps with warm tubey mids and punchy bottom end.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#16 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 06:45
I agree with abhi.pani
square_wave
Inventar
#17 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 09:52
Good tube preamp is not just about “ tubey” sound. From my experience, it added more 3 dimensional depth to the sound with the instruments fleshed out with good body to the instruments. The feeling of being closer to the performance is what I experienced. That too with my modest NAD ss amp.
Adding a tube preamp for “mushy sonics” is the wrong way of approaching hifi. Good tube equipment do not do that. Doing the hybrid thing is a good idea as long as you put together the right equipment. I suggest you start listening to some good hybrid setups and decide yourself.
square_wave
Inventar
#18 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 10:06
Why don’t you ask Prithvi only for suggestions regarding equipment which will match the Amayas ? He may know better. I have heard a full audio analoge SS setup running Aninas and they sounded pretty good.
I have a feeling a Plinius integrated may also suit your setup.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#19 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 11:03

I have a feeling a Plinius integrated may also suit your setup.


Plinius actually rocks with a Cadence...I have had Avitas at my place they were rocking big time...If you have the budget then you are on for a treat.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#20 erstellt: 24. Apr 2007, 11:08


square wave said :

Good tube preamp is not just about “ tubey” sound. From my experience, it added more 3 dimensional depth to the sound with the instruments fleshed out with good body to the instruments. The feeling of being closer to the performance is what I experienced.



Good point made.

Audiophiles have their own preferences, and what sound they find most satisfying.

Some love Bass slam, others rythm, yet others 'clarity.'

I for one love good recreation of a Spatial Image / sound stage... and the feeling of 'being there.'

What floats your boat ? Only you can tell.

The fact is that you have bought a great pair of speakers that can deliver on many, of the above alternates.

What you mate these speakers with, will decide what you finally get.

Have fun, and LISTEN a LOT.

Enjoy !


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 24. Apr 2007, 11:09 bearbeitet]
herculepirate
Stammgast
#21 erstellt: 25. Apr 2007, 10:23
my POA

Vincent'sdo have Pre amp in hybrid's and solid state
also they have Power amps in Hybrids and solid state
first thing i do is go to thé quad guys...designer audio and audition
the excellent SS combo of 99 pre and 909 power..wanna chk how good SS
sound on ESL's
then call up also soundsmiths for an audition with cambridge 840 amp(
the cost of this cambridge is also sky high...but i just wanna listen
to the sound....wont go for it though...i may be interested in their
CD player anyway)...please suggest me a good budget cd player....
Who does arcam in india...anyone?
then i also ask the vineet audio guys in pune for a pre and power and
hybrid integrated audition
and then if all else fails...i know the Jolida will rock'...i bet on it
mail up
alwyn
soulforged
Stammgast
#22 erstellt: 25. Apr 2007, 12:10
Apna Prithvi deals in Arcam, check em out with him. Also, try Cayin for a budget hybrid. I've heard the Vincent hybrid pre and its is really good.

For budget CDPs...NAD and Cambridge are pretty safe bets...
herculepirate
Stammgast
#23 erstellt: 25. Apr 2007, 14:22
Hey ...Cayin..who deals them in india???
Any help on that one too
Thanks
alwyn
Shahrukh
Inventar
#24 erstellt: 25. Apr 2007, 14:30

herculepirate schrieb:
Hey ...Cayin..who deals them in india???


SOUNDSMITHS!!
herculepirate
Stammgast
#25 erstellt: 27. Apr 2007, 15:34
A friend of mine got me this guy who has a Cayin 265Ai for sale.(40 W pure class A Solid State)...Any Views on this amp guys?? They have used it for Demo stuff and also a MacCormack 125 power amplifier for sale.
I definitely wanna go the Pre Amp way now.
I wanna check out the Vincent Audio Hybrid Pre amp. (45 K)
That much of a Budget is good with me but it has to go with the Kenwood KM-X1000 and the MacCormack 125.
There is no other Pre amp in that range.
Arcam FMJ pre amps are way over the head.(1 Lakh),..phew
Any one suggesting any Pre amps??
My budget for pre amps is (45 - 50 K)
getting in frustration mode now
Help needed.
Alwyn
Kamal
Stammgast
#26 erstellt: 27. Apr 2007, 16:05
Have a word with Viren-he's a member.
His stuff is good and he'll help out with advice on the technical angle.


[Beitrag von Kamal am 27. Apr 2007, 16:06 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#27 erstellt: 28. Apr 2007, 05:20
Hi Alwyn,

I can understand your frustration.

Start Listning to the various stuff on offer.


ONLY YOU can be sure of what you would like to spend good money for, and live with it for a while (before the upgrade bug bites you)
abhi.pani
Inventar
#28 erstellt: 28. Apr 2007, 05:38
Buddy Alwyn,
Whats your budget for the complete amplification unit ?
sivat
Stammgast
#29 erstellt: 28. Apr 2007, 08:38

herculepirate schrieb:
A friend of mine got me this guy who has a Cayin 265Ai for sale.(40 W pure class A Solid State)...Any Views on this amp guys?? They have used it for Demo stuff and also a MacCormack 125 power amplifier for sale.
I definitely wanna go the Pre Amp way now.
I wanna check out the Vincent Audio Hybrid Pre amp. (45 K)
That much of a Budget is good with me but it has to go with the Kenwood KM-X1000 and the MacCormack 125.
There is no other Pre amp in that range.
Arcam FMJ pre amps are way over the head.(1 Lakh),..phew
Any one suggesting any Pre amps??
My budget for pre amps is (45 - 50 K)
getting in frustration mode now
Help needed.
Alwyn


Hi Alwyn,

All the amplification you mentioned are completely different from each other (in terms of thier tonality/sonic characteristics).

If i were you...first i will decide on the kind of product that i want to buy, before being worried about what is available in the market...

So do listen to these products, if possible ...with your own speakers.

Regards
Siva.
herculepirate
Stammgast
#30 erstellt: 28. Apr 2007, 16:21
Abhi.Pani
My complete budget for the amplification unit is about 1 Lakh.
I can go slow since I already have the Kenwood KM-X1000 power amp with me.
I can buy a good pre amp for now and obviously a good player (20K)and go for the power amp later
Siva,
looked into your site and you have a tube pre amplifier...have you tried coupling it with any solid state power amps
Viren...
have you tried any like that?
I am gonna be auditioning the vincent audio pre amps with their power amps.
Thanks
Alwyn
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#31 erstellt: 29. Apr 2007, 06:08
Hi Alwyn,

Why not take your Kenwood Power amps for the Vincent audition, also ... particularly since one of your options is to use the Vincent Pre + Kenwood Power amps... atleast for now ?
Manek
Inventar
#32 erstellt: 30. Apr 2007, 03:52
hercule...

where would you audition the vincent ? who carries them ?

manek.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#33 erstellt: 07. Mai 2007, 06:05
Hello Alwyn,
If you could raise your budget by another 20k, you can try out a Plinius 9100 or a Krell KAV-400xi. Both of them are integrated amps but with good current capabilities and very musical. I have tried Cadence with Plinius and to me they are a kick ass combo. A heavenly combination of Punch and warmth. Mine is a older generation Plinius, the 9100 is a step forward from what I had experienced. I seriously doubt, you getting a better sound quality with a pre-power in the same budget unless you buy used products (which is not at all a bad idea either).
Manek
Inventar
#34 erstellt: 08. Mai 2007, 12:32
hercule.

Abhi from the forum in another thread asked me to point out to you that arcam would be a good bet.

Sharukh and I heard the arcam pair at lakozy and loved it.

BTW cadence used to distribute arcam and the pairing was pretty good.

Manek.
herculepirate
Stammgast
#35 erstellt: 09. Mai 2007, 18:59
Hey Guys.
I tried the Cayin 265Ai Solid State 40 W Pure Class A integrated amp with the cadence Amaya and with a Cambridge 640v2 cd player with Nordost blue heaven cables.
The Mids were great but it lacked the high frequency extension and no bass Punch in it at all. Tried a few Rock and Jazz tracks and I was not able to feel the music. I dont know what kind of Music Cayin would cater to????
Next on the line is the VIncent Audio line up tomorrow and also the Quad 99/909, Marantz Pm-17 mk II, Arcam, Advance Acoustic Pre POwer combo and also the Project Turntable Xpression 2 and RPM 5
please keep the feedback coming.
Thanks
Alwyn
viren
Stammgast
#36 erstellt: 10. Mai 2007, 03:27
Hi Alwyn,

It's nice to get so much advice on what to buy.

I think, first, it's important for you to establish your expectations for music at home. Just putting a string of components together doesn't necessarily get you a good music system.

Comparing equipment on the basis of high, mid, and low frequency response will just drive you in circles - you end up listening more to hi-fi than music.

Take recordings you really enjoy - not from the audiophile point of view but for the music. Play these when you audition equipment. The system that just helps you relax and sink into the music is the one that's doing its job well. Listen more for those emotional responses, and you will be on your way to getting a musically satisfying system!

Viren.
Arj
Inventar
#37 erstellt: 10. Mai 2007, 03:47
thats some very good advice Viren.

hello Alwyn, definitions of what is Good Bass etc are very much influenced by our psat hearing history..and it is not easy to unlearn

again I could be wrong..and your point of reference could be correct, but from what I heard of the Amayas and the Cayins in the past, something gives me the feeling the problem is more of expectation Vs reality than reality Vs Absolute
Manek
Inventar
#38 erstellt: 10. Mai 2007, 04:02
Alwyn,

If music matters to you more, get a combo of cdp and amp which will connect you emotionally to the music you normally hear and love. Once you have a set or two shortlisted then bother about the other attributes. Most of the time, if you identify an combo you connect to emotionally, it usually is what you are looking for in terms of bass, mids and highs. The Amaya's are lovely speakers, no question about that.

But then again if you are one of the camp who listen to the equipment and treat music just as a means to listen to the equipment then I guess you are going about it the way you should.

Peoples priorities differ. I for one will put music before the equipment and hence my selection process differs from others.

Manek.
square_wave
Inventar
#39 erstellt: 10. Mai 2007, 09:15
Completely agree with the posters above.
Looking for “perfect” system will make you around in circles. Even in super hi-end audio, people are divided into camps. So total agreement of what defines a perfect system is impossible in any price category. If you are a music lover, just take your favorite cd’s and listen. If it satisfies you, buy it……………Just make sure that the equipment has good build quality and reliability. That is all.
herculepirate
Stammgast
#40 erstellt: 10. Mai 2007, 21:46
I would like to thank everybody who replied to the post on Cayin.
I think there would not have been this kinda reaction if i would have worded it right
I also wrote that "i didnt feel the MUSIC"... drums notes were not emphasized and Cymbals were lower than the normal.
Also .. I am definitely listening to the Muisc I love..I like Dream Theater, Joe Satriani, Radiohead, porcupine Tree, Lee Ritenour and I definitely have an idea on how this music should sound the way I like.
Positive feedback taken from the post is that i should listen to the Music and dont bother on the Names and Combinations which I was earlier very keen on....that concept is out of the window...
Anyway to tell you of another amp i heard today was the "Advance Acoustic"...Awesome sounding amp...full and bright..loved it....i heard the integrated and the sound was beautiful...heard it on the Monitor Audio speakers (57K speaker)...
Thanks guys for Input guys.
Keep it rolling.
Tomorrow is Vincent Audio
Anyone had Advance Acoustic exposure?
thanks
Alwyn
soulforged
Stammgast
#41 erstellt: 11. Mai 2007, 04:59
I wonder if the Amayas are the right speakers for your choice of music. From my experience with Cadence spkrs and ESLs in general (which, honestly, is not a lot), I think they are more suited for Jazz and Classical. I could be wrong though...the Amayas do seem to strike the right combination on paper.

I have heard the Advanced Acoustics with Pro-ject TT and Triangle speakers. It was a sweet sounding amp, I did not find it bright, maybe coz I was listening to vinyl. Monitor Audio are great speakers for rock, maybe thats why you liked what you heard. Did you listen to them in Bangalore?

Waiting for your feedback on Vincent...If you are listening to them at ARN, try them out with PSB speakers as well...
herculepirate
Stammgast
#42 erstellt: 12. Mai 2007, 13:08
Regards HiFi people.
I had a splendid audition of Vincent Audio products this afternoon.
SV-226 mk II (100w integrated Hybrid amp) (52K)
SV-236 (100w integrated Hybrid amp)(75K)
SA-T1 pre amp (75K) and the SP-T100 monoblocks (100w per channel) (65K per MB)
I would like to skip the SV-226 cause the sound wasnt to my satisfaction.
The SV-236 was awesome....it had control and it also produced some of the rock and metal tracks quite well...I also played one of my favourite jazz renditions of autumn leaves and it was great... clarity was awesome too and the bass punch was great...
They then switched to the Pre and MonoBlock combination which was very very very distinct in notes. We tried the Autumn Leaves track again and the part of the saxophone taking over the lead was awesome.. it felt as if the player was breathing into the speaker...the bass notes were just right with no extra or added rounding off the notes...I reallly enjoyed this combination...
This Vincent Audio is definitely in my list.
Also on my list is a Arcam FMJ A22 100W integrated amp...a discontinued product which is available with a friend... I have to try the Amp out since Cadence was promoting Arcam. Also have the Primare I21 to audition on WEdnesday.
Any views and feedback on this post.
Thanks guys
Alwyn
abhi.pani
Inventar
#43 erstellt: 12. Mai 2007, 13:12
Good going buddy...
Primare is crap..
Manek
Inventar
#44 erstellt: 13. Mai 2007, 05:00
hercule....

who sells vincent audio in Mumbai ? where can we hear them ?

manek.
Savyasaachi
Inventar
#45 erstellt: 13. Mai 2007, 05:32
Can i throw in a few more recommendations here..
How about the Manley Labs Stingray integrated or even the Prima Luna Prologue Two. AM sure amp nut can attest to the latters strenghts.

If Hybrid is all you are looking at then check out Unison Research Unico.
Should be in your price range.
herculepirate
Stammgast
#46 erstellt: 13. Mai 2007, 07:57
Manek,
Vincent Audio is distributed by Focal Audio, Pune not only in India but the SAARC region. They also operate from Dubai.
you can contact
Akshay Kohli +919890036225
and their representative called Nishikant +919370596210
Focal Audio also deal Densen Audio...a awesome Danish brand... ... Their 60W integrated amp (85K) is supposedly very very great too...I heard the Densen CD player with the Vincent Audition and the CD player churned out frequencies that I had failed to hear all along...I then asked them to change out the CD player since I couldnt judge the amp...phew

Who deals with Manley and Unison Research in India??? Help
thanks
Alwyn
Manek
Inventar
#47 erstellt: 13. Mai 2007, 10:52
OH ! i had written to them i the past but got no response. I thought they were a defunct outfit.....thought someone else was doing it now.

thanks for the numbers.

manek.
Savyasaachi
Inventar
#48 erstellt: 13. Mai 2007, 14:40
Prithvi may know a couple of people who own Unison products but as for Manley no clue. The Stingray is supposedly a very nice product.
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