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sanathan
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#1 erstellt: 19. Jan 2006, 10:49

Yesterday i had a chance to listen to santana supernatural on an entry level dvd player(2 channel downmixed and fed to my stereo amp) and it sounded fabulous . The next instant i swapped the source with my audio cd player and it sounded grainy and lean?? Did anybody have this experience before? or am i hearing things?

Arj
Inventar

#2 erstellt: 19. Jan 2006, 17:54

you definitely are hearing things..but they could very well be the right things !

the synergies in audio can be mysterious and if you have hit on a good one which is good on the wallet all you should do is thank your good luck.

But perhaps to clarify to yourself and remove all doubts,could you try an A/B with different music ? eg.
1. Old indian songs
2. New indian songs.. maybe Indipop or AR Rehman types
3. old westerns like Harry Belafonte etc
4. newer..Satana et all
and other genres.

try to focus on
1. Treble( High freq instruments, high pithched vocals, triangles..)
2. Midrange. pure vocals, spoken word, pianos, main sound of violins guitars etc
3. Bass. the thumps of a drum, male baritones, cellos , low end of a guitar
etc etc

and try to compare the two sources and write the resilts down on apapre, perhaps in a scale of 1 to 5

Now you will have a better idea of what is better. but considering that you may want to go back and forth a couple of times it may take around 5-6 hours of your time, but if you are true to your ears it will be well worth the time ;)Maybe

BTW which CDP do u use ?

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#3 erstellt: 19. Jan 2006, 19:53

yes i have tried that but only two albums
1) sanatana supernatural .......
2) Holst :The planets (Telarc SACD)

I found out:
1) Sanatana was totally diff in DVD Video (it soundded more real in dvd video)
2) Holst sounded more grainy in CD ,it also sounded more "mechanical"
while in the dvd player the same audio cd sounded more coarse but more "together"

so i got the doubt whether the cd format as a whole is over analytical and therefore more mechanical and unmusical ....

I can VOUCH for the fact that my ipod in apple lossless format through my standard ipod headphones is very vibrant ...i have really tested more than 10 albums in a comparision and the ipos sounded more vibrant and musical ,but it may well be due to teh headphones advantage ..(no room interactions) ......... although i could find differeneces in tonality and vibrancy ........

By the way i use a cyrus cd 6 s ..... with a rotel ra03

did anybosy ever find such differences ...

Arj
Inventar

#4 erstellt: 19. Jan 2006, 21:57

sanathan schrieb:

.

I can VOUCH for the fact that my ipod in apple lossless format through my standard ipod headphones is very vibrant ...i have really tested more than 10 albums in a comparision and the ipos sounded more vibrant and musical ,but it may well be due to teh headphones advantage ..(no room interactions) ......... although i could find differeneces in tonality and vibrancy ........

welcome.. i loved my Ipod output so much that i now digitally stream the output from that into my DAC

And yes I found the Dock out from the iPOd as good as my modded NAd521BEE ..but clearly lacking in detail compared to an Wadia DAC.. hence using the iPOd as my transport now !

have never heard a cyrus , but from what I heard they seems to be lacking in the bass department and are more on the Laidback
scheme of things..

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#5 erstellt: 19. Jan 2006, 22:24

hi arj,
does your wadia have an usb input? how do you do it from ipod ..where did you buy yur ipod and what is the approx cost ...

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#6 erstellt: 19. Jan 2006, 22:24

hi arj,
does your wadia have an usb input? how do you do it from ipod ..where did you buy yur wadia and what is the approx cost ...

Arj
Inventar

#7 erstellt: 20. Jan 2006, 05:10

you can check out my system here

http://www.hifi-forum.net/index.php?action=profile&pID=29361

As you see I use an Airport express and stream digital into it, then use the DAC via Toslink.

viren
Stammgast

#8 erstellt: 20. Jan 2006, 08:16

Sanathan,

You are hearing right! Your ears always tell YOU the truth -rather than some reviewers opinions.

Lately, my NAD CD player has been on the blink; and I have been using the inexpensive (Rs.3000) Philips DVD player for my CD music listening. I tell you, this player has no right to be this good - it makes music!

The Philips DVD player is a very musical player, and I would be very happy living with it. It's probably a marvel of integrated circuit design, with digital done right this time. There are differences with upmarket players, but those differences are overblown - the reviewers' art of hyperbole!

If it's music you want, this player does enough things right.

Viren.

square_wave
Inventar

#9 erstellt: 20. Jan 2006, 12:22

I second Viren and Arj here. Some of the dvd players nowadays are not that bad. Pretty good compared to most entry level cd players. But you will start hearing differences if your setup is right with the right cd player for your system. The key word is synergy. I recently auditioned a TS Lim modded Marantz cd67 in my system. Compared to my pioneer dvd player, the difference is very clear. The DVD Player sounds like as if the singer has a bad cold when she/he is singing and the sound is very loose(no focus and instruments are not in place).The soundstage shrinks and instruments sound muddy. The same Marantz player didn’t score well with my friend from whom I picked it up. His MF amp and proacs do not go well with this player………..

Shahrukh
Inventar

#10 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 08:13

viren schrieb:

Lately, my NAD CD player has been on the blink; and I have been using the inexpensive (Rs.3000) Philips DVD player for my CD music listening. I tell you, this player has no right to be this good - it makes music!

Viren,
Could you tell me the model number of this player? Is this the top-loading model?

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#11 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 08:44

square_wave schrieb:

The same Marantz player didn’t score well with my friend from whom I picked it up. His MF amp and proacs do not go well with this player………..

Frankly, the MF amp doesn't do justice to the Proac.
It deserves much better.

square_wave
Inventar

#12 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 11:26

Even I was thinking on the same lines. His system sounds thin in the highs with a definite lack of body to the instruments in the higher frequencies. This is definitely not a character of Proacs. I feel the amp is the culprit.

powersupply
Ist häufiger hier

#13 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 11:34

Hi suare_wave, ask your friend to try (if he can) some thing like Sugden, Plinius or Primare etc..MF3.2 is not a great amp..

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#14 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 12:35

I haven't heard the Praimare..but personally i feel the Sugden would give Plinius a run for its money.
the Sugden A21 is a fabulous amp!

powersupply
Ist häufiger hier

#15 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 13:45

Saachi, who's India Disti or dealer for Sugden Prods?. Though I've not listened to this, I come accross few users mentioning they don't need any upgradation to their Sugden amps

I think this A21 is pure Class-A, rated 25rms/ch. How about A21SE? this too class-A operation?

diskspinner
Ist häufiger hier

#16 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 14:14

powersupply schrieb:

How about A21SE? this too class-A operation?

Yes, 30W/Ch

powersupply
Ist häufiger hier

#17 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 14:40

thanks Diskspinner. Would it drive well the ProAcs & as well Dynas - floors?

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#18 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 15:32

What i heard was Arjun's amp(arj) at Prithvi's place and if i remmeber correctly it was a response D15..
IT was more than able to handle the speaker.
Beat the ARagon amp that was there by miles.

powersupply
Ist häufiger hier

#19 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 15:43

Saachi, then it's great amp. Are there any Distis in India? or you 've to source it from abroad?

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#20 erstellt: 27. Jan 2006, 15:45

Don't think you have distributors here..Arjun said he picked it up when he went abroad.

powersupply
Ist häufiger hier

#21 erstellt: 28. Jan 2006, 07:33

Mr.Arjun, are there any distis in Singapore for Sugden prods?

Arj
Inventar

#22 erstellt: 28. Jan 2006, 08:09

electrades audio at adelphi in Singapore are the dealers.
the sugden gives out 25 W at 15 ohms and around 15 W at 4 ohms and does not have a remote.

I have also heard it run 83dB ATC 12s in a 12 X 15 romm and it was bale to drive them to moderate volumes..

The A21SE is Double the cost and gives 30 W into 8 and 40 into 4 and has a remote

ckn
Ist häufiger hier

#23 erstellt: 28. Jan 2006, 12:17

Hi,

Re: Sugden amp
When you say "double the cost" what is the figure? Guess I must have missed the origial?

25 pc power on this class A would equate (roughly) to what power on the normal brands that we get to hear (like Nad, Marantz etc). For people steeped in rating amps as 60/100/150 wpc....25 wpc would look like a pipsqueak...obviously it is not...but would just like ot get some perspective here...

Also is worth buying a preowned Sugden amp? There is one for sale....A21A, I think is the model....reportedly in good condition.... any comments?
Thanks
Ckn

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#24 erstellt: 28. Jan 2006, 14:09

ckn schrieb:

It is totally worth going for a sugden..
beat the pants out of a huge monster Aragon amp, of course IMHO.

It is best paired with speakers having sensitivity greater than 88-89dB.

[Beitrag von Savyasaachi am 28. Jan 2006, 16:33 bearbeitet]

powersupply
Ist häufiger hier

#25 erstellt: 30. Jan 2006, 07:08

Saachi, Really it's astonishing to note that 25watts/ch sugden beats the monster aragon amp. Then this 25watts/ch class-A should almost equal to 200-250wrms/ch of other commercial brand amp?. I think CKN wants to know this power comparison :)Right CKN?

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#26 erstellt: 30. Jan 2006, 08:27

powersupply schrieb:

Its not like that..
don't equate powerratings that way..
What i menat was that the sugden was able to drive the speakers regardless of the lower rating and did the job way way better than the aragon in my opinion, of course.

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#27 erstellt: 09. Feb 2006, 12:37

HI all,
I have got an update. I changed my speaker wire and there was a huge change .The imaging is very clear and almost 3D like now. I can describe the sound to be articulate and well extended and such a joy to listen too. There is also a coherency in the sound now. The cable i am using now is the QED silver anniversary biwire ....Now the presentation is lifelike ..err well almost ...

Anybody visiting or in hyderabad are invited to an audition :-)

abhi.pani
Inventar

#28 erstellt: 09. Feb 2006, 12:52

How much ????.............Money......did it cost you.
Whats the per metre price of this cable? Did you change the interconnect also ?

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#29 erstellt: 09. Feb 2006, 13:16

sanathan said:
HI all,
I have got an update. I changed my speaker wire and there was a huge change .The imaging is very clear and almost 3D like now. I can describe the sound to be articulate and well extended and such a joy to listen too. There is also a coherency in the sound now. The cable i am using now is the QED silver anniversary biwire ....Now the presentation is lifelike ..err well almost ... Anybody visiting or in hyderabad are invited to an audition :-)

Hi Sanathan If you liked what good speaker cables can do, try a good pair of interconnects too... and Main Cable also.

IMHO, Interconnects and mains cables make a larger difference to the sound than Speaker cables ...

The mind ( and our ears ) are like a parachute. They only work when they are open...

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#30 erstellt: 09. Feb 2006, 13:53

I brought it for 750 Rs per metre .I am using a quinex 2 for the interconnect ...i tend to disagree,the interconnect had made lesser difference (atleast in my system) .I brought the cable from profx chennai ,they also have the excellent X-Tube 350 ......I found that the XT-350 gave better lows but the silver anniversary is more suited to my system .....

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#31 erstellt: 09. Feb 2006, 13:57

Can anybody give me details where i can buy a mains isolater in india? Is monster powerbar a good choice but i think its too costly at 16k Rs

abhi.pani
Inventar

#32 erstellt: 09. Feb 2006, 14:02

Sanathan,
Whats your system configuration ??

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#33 erstellt: 09. Feb 2006, 14:06

I use a Quad 12L, A Rotel RA-03 with a cyrus CD6 CD player ....

square_wave
Inventar

#34 erstellt: 09. Feb 2006, 14:41

sanathan schrieb:

Try changing the interconnect to Nordost – solar wind. Around the same price as the QED Quinex. A friend of mine changed to this from the Quinex and it made a huge change for him.

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#35 erstellt: 09. Feb 2006, 15:29

BTW where is nordost available ...thx

Arj
Inventar

#36 erstellt: 09. Feb 2006, 22:27

i have the Nordost solar wind as well as the blue heaven. I would suggest saving your money for something else .. like more music

you have a nice system it is more important to enjoy it

And if youndo want to experiment, try playing around with positioning and simple room treatment.

[Beitrag von Arj am 09. Feb 2006, 22:35 bearbeitet]

square_wave
Inventar

#37 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 11:22

Interconnects are sometimes system dependant. The solar wind made all the difference for this guy's MF amp/CA Azur 640cV2/Proac stduio125 setup.I tried it in my setup out of curiosity but there was not much of an upgrade from what I already have (Murthy's FINNESSE) I don't know where you get it in India. He picked it up from singapore. You need to check out stuff in your system. The right interconnect can make a huge difference.

The difference from the QED for him was.
1. Less harshness.
2. More harmonics (very evident with guitar picks)
3. More dynamics (the piano keys)
4. Position of the artist is clearer.
5. Blacker background and cleaner presentation.
6. Muddiness in the bass is reduced.
7. Better mids………….
I have listened to them in two different systems.

[Beitrag von square_wave am 10. Feb 2006, 12:23 bearbeitet]

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#38 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 12:04

Savyasachi wrote :

It is totally worth going for a sugden..
beat the pants out of a huge monster Aragon amp, of course IMHO.

I beg to disagree friend..what headroom an Aragon Power amp might offer will be much greater than the Sugden and capability to go down scary impedance levels where many amps would start boiling..BTW Aragons are very senstive towards pre-power combo and It would be intersting to know what pre was being used....Most power amps get a bad reputation for being used with wrong pre's...as such in Total Sound a Rotel power driven by NAD pre made it sound screechy highs and loose bottoms(remember Rotel power amps are pretty decent when it comes to lows)

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#39 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 12:10

Arj where did you pick up Sugden and for what moolah?

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#40 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 14:19

sanathan said:
BTW where is nordost available ...thx

Nordot is available in India from The Soundsmiths

http://www.thesoundsmiths.com

Arj
Inventar

#41 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 14:52

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Savyasachi wrote :

It is totally worth going for a sugden..
beat the pants out of a huge monster Aragon amp, of course IMHO.

I completemly disagree !

in the end your choice of amps depends on which speaker you run and in what rooom. (And the seating distance from the speaker)

if you run a ATC SCM 12 in a 10 x 12 room even tho it is only 83 db the Sugden can run it rather well. but in a 15 X14 room it may struggle with the Bass and will neeed a monster amp

but with a 104 db Klipschhorn, the speaker needs less than 5 W even in a 15 X 20 room at the lowest freq. hence the sugden has more than enough power so a more powerful amp is not needed.

so a comparison on headroom of an amp is rather trivial if the room and Speaker are not brought into the equation !

as was discussed in a previous thread the power of an amp is not as straighforward as it seems and needs to be taken up on speaker by speaker as they can really vary.

Arj where did you pick up Sugden and for what moolah?

i got it at singapore.. it used to be around USD 1500 then..

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#42 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 14:58

You are talking about amp preferences here, but I'm making a point about speaker drivabality comparision between Sugden and Aragon power amp which was made earlier.
Well I hope you disagree when Sugden is compared to Aragon power amp as I feel both are in a entirely diffrent league. BTW when you did a comparo with what speakers were these amps used and which pre.

[Beitrag von SUB_BOSS am 10. Feb 2006, 15:10 bearbeitet]

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#43 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 15:18

Hey Mohan..

What u have raised is a very valid contention.
but when i was referring to the comparo between the sugden and the Aragon, i was purely comparing it on the enjoyment and the involvement factor.
Regardless of the Pre it was a fabuluos amp..I think the pre was the Linn Classik..correct me if i am mistaken (prithvi, Arjun)
The difference was between the two amps was clearly very evident for me.

And as Arjun claims the Sugden CAN drive low sensititvity speakers(maybe not low impedance ones)

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#44 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 15:38

Dear Sachi,

I was bowled when I heard Sugden..but for a very limited time..hmm very neat low end is what I can recall..but guess all class A's are that way...correct me guys if I'm wrong.

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#45 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 15:43

Not necessarily,
I heard the acoustic potrait with the Plinius and i was kind of disappointed.
maybe it was the Preamp that they were using..(some Marantz clone hybrid)
Maybe it was the speakers(remember i am comparing it with Proac).
The dynamism ..the musicality that the Sugden was simply missing for me.

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#46 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 15:47

Most power amps get a bad reputation for being used with wrong pre's...

heard the acoustic potrait with the Plinius and i was kind of disappointed.
maybe it was the Preamp that they were using

Yes it is very true....Amen

square_wave
Inventar

#47 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 16:09

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Dear Sachi,

I was bowled when I heard Sugden..but for a very limited time..hmm very neat low end is what I can recall..but guess all class A's are that way...correct me guys if I'm wrong.

Most class A’s are that way. Especially the Plinius Class A. That is one major factor which Siva points out with the Plinius class A amp which he runs with the AP. The control and musicality in the low end and the amount of full bodied musical information that preamp digs up is one thing that amazes me each time I listen to his setup. There are layers and layers of sheer musical info in the low – end. Sadly that is one major factor which is missing with my NAD. I guess I will have to upgrade soon. A valve pre and a decent power amp…hmmmmm.. need to save up.

Arj
Inventar

#48 erstellt: 10. Feb 2006, 17:45

[

You are talking about amp preferences here, but I'm making a point about speaker drivabality comparision between Sugden and Aragon power amp which was made earlier.
.[/quote]

Actually I am making the same point. the drivability of a speaker depends on that speakers technical specs And the room.

more power does not mean better for all speakers. eg a Lowther based speaker usually needs less that 1 W in a resonable room, even at a dynamic peak it may rarely need more than 10 W. a usual 200W behemoth gives optimum output maybe only above 20W below which its performance is not too great with higher distortion

hence a low power amp should drive that speaker better than a high powered one .

hence headroom is again a function of the speaker

square_wave
Inventar

#49 erstellt: 11. Feb 2006, 10:24

[quote="Arj"][

You are talking about amp preferences here, but I'm making a point about speaker drivabality comparision between Sugden and Aragon power amp which was made earlier.
.[/quote]

Actually I am making the same point. the drivability of a speaker depends on that speakers technical specs And the room.

more power does not mean better for all speakers. eg a Lowther based speaker usually needs less that 1 W in a resonable room, even at a dynamic peak it may rarely need more than 10 W. a usual 200W behemoth gives optimum output maybe only above 20W below which its performance is not too great with higher distortion

hence a low power amp should drive that speaker better than a high powered one .

hence headroom is again a function of the speaker

[/quote]

I think Mohan and Arjun are saying the same things but each of you are looking at it from a different angles. With behemoths like Aragons and Brystons you have the flexibility of using most speakers irrespective of impedance swings/sensitivity/size of driver etc….. But then again synergy is the most important factor to attain musicality. I remember listening to the second Rethm at Jacob george’s studio. The modified lowther filled up the room with music with hardly any watts from the VTL tube amps. I guess the sugden A21 will be more suited for some speakers than big behemoths…… Like one audiophile once told me…..”Buy the speaker you like and buy an amp which does justice to it irrespective of price, power and hype. It is important to keep an open mind in audio”.

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#50 erstellt: 13. Feb 2006, 08:04

Actually I am making the same point. the drivability of a speaker depends on that speakers technical specs And the room.

more power does not mean better for all speakers. eg a Lowther based speaker usually needs less that 1 W in a resonable room, even at a dynamic peak it may rarely need more than 10 W. a usual 200W behemoth gives optimum output maybe only above 20W below which its performance is not too great with higher distortion

More power does not mean better for all speakers...but good for most..right??..and a power amp like Aragon anyday is easier on tough loads than a 20 watter..well lets assume it's big room and gotta drive a low effc speakers at a reasonable audible level..then you need juice to drive them when some heavy passages dipping low are summoned..??

even at a dynamic peak it may rarely need more than 10 W. a usual 200W behemoth gives optimum output maybe only above 20W below which its performance is not too great with higher distortion

hence headroom is again a function of the speaker
.

+Right point noted...My friend it really depends upon the speakers here again can't really push Dyn's in a fairly large room with a 20 watter..can you???...I guess the headroom is a hand in hand function between speakers and an amp..so an amp with limited headroom and low instantaneous current suffers to reproduce signals in a clear fashion...

cheers....

[Beitrag von SUB_BOSS am 13. Feb 2006, 09:23 bearbeitet]

Arj
Inventar

#51 erstellt: 13. Feb 2006, 10:27

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

The above is definitely on the lines of what I was trying to say.but again there are 2 points above
1. Big Room (much greater than 15 X 12)
2. Low sensitivity (More relevant than efficiency) speakers ir less than 86 db Speakers

This is not a very common combination asz most speakers these days fall into the 86_90 db range ie moderately sensitive.

If you look at the entry level Aragons spec it does 200 W at 8 ohms and 300 W at 4.
Now most amps produce the best sound begining at around 30-40 % of peak power.. some even at 10%

so with such a huge amp in a reszonable room and average speakers you would be running the speaker for most of thetime in less than optimum sound.. not sure if that is a good match.

Again let us look at " Headroom". that is the reserve power needs for sudden surges of POwer. some amps have it and some dont.
For class AB amps, it is purely dependant on thethe design of the Amp. eg a NAD and especially a NAIM is able to give out more than 3 times its power for dynamic spurts. that is because they are conservatively rated in their ratings AND they have better than usual power supplies.. something a Rega or a Puccini although with more delicate control do not have

For Class A Amps, headroom is limited, but since they are conducting full current all the time, the ability to sum up the reserve power quickly is very high that is whyè pure class A amps with small power ratings drive seemingly tougher loads easily

And 25 W in a 15X12 room is more than enough for a Dynaudio 52SE playing rock. I know this because i actually know someone in another forum running it as above (Incidentally a sugden A21a !!) !

But again of you have a speaker like a Wilson bensch or an ATC SCM35 and your room is 15 X 18 then you need an amp like the Aragorn (Even a Krell KAV series will not have the grunt). but for more "Regular" and budget speakers you do not need that much power.

So more power is better not for All speakers but only for those speakers which actually need that much more power ! Also a high quality 1 W is more important for most speaker than lots of power !