A recent experience with Vinyl

abhi.pani schrieb:

Hi All, Was thinking to write about this since a few days now but always jumped into other things. Ok, so a few days back I was talking about XRCD on this forum, almost during the same time I got an invitation from one of our forum members named Fan_of_stereo. He told me that he has a decent Vinyl setup and could show me the difference between Vinyl and CD. Now till that day I had never come across a good vinyl setup. All I had experienced were cheap Vinyl players with local 30 rupees catridge and they never gave me any sense of hi-rez ever. So this offer from Mr.FOS (Fan_of_Stereo) was really lucrative as even I wanted to see whats the big deal about Vinyls... So after a few exchange of PMs we met at his place. It was great to see his Rack system which had everything from a TT-Cassette Player-CDP-DVDP-Tuner. He was using a Technics Turntable with a Shure Catridge. A Denon PMA-2000 played the role of an amp+phonostage. Speakers were Kef Q7. Now this FOS is a big RD Burman fan, and so all the Vinyls he had were RD Collection. Though I wished he had a few western ones but nevertheless.... The first track he played on a vinyl(some RD number) and I was totally floored. I immediately knew these things are sounding special and that CDs may really struggle to come close. He also had the same track on CD and as he put it in, the magic was all gone.......it sounded synthetic, as if tweaked by a cheap equalizer, the body was missing througout the audible spectrum, the bass was single tone without any rise-decay characteristics, treble was the worst, very shrill and edgy, even the mids were coloured with shrillness due to the treble....All in all it sounded Bull-shit. Unfortunately most of the hindi classics of 80s and before are very badly mastered (infact badly tweaked) and badly recorded on to the CDs...thats one big reason that those tracks are better reproduced even on a Tape rather than a CD. But Vinyls really rules. We did such A/B with few more tracks and everytime the result was the same, CDs failed miserably. Voices that come out of a Vinyl are just so close to reality... I have read in this forum that Vinyl bass is a bit loose, CDs are more dynamic etc...unfortunately we didnt have any latest Vinyl to compare to todays well recorded CDs so cant say much. But whatever little I heard was something fantastic...and that makes me think to add a TT soon. But do we get good collection of Vinyls in India ?

well, it's good to read that you had your 1st real good experience w/ vinyl. In India it could be a long time coming but I'm often surprised when I discover/hear who has vinyl in India & in which city.

Don't get all that excited about "vinyl rules", "Voices that come out of a Vinyl are just so close to reality...", etc.
In general, these statements are true.
However, your "demo" of vinyl was badly skewed in its favour just by the fact that the RD Burman CDs made in India are pathetic sonically. You have already correctly noted this fact in your post. Now, what you need to do is to re-calibrate your vinyl "demo" experience using this info. You'll find that the net result will be still in vinyl's favour but less lop-sided.
The poor quality CDs is, I think, a circumstance of the market conditions. How many Indians "demand" a hi-fidelity CD for RD Burman music?

As you probably know, the sonic quality of CDs today is the best it has ever been & many believe that it's going to get even better. This is especially true for Jazz, Blues, Classical (it was always superior for this genre), Bluegrass & even several rock groups.
Hell, I've even played the sound-track of the movies "Kabhi Khushi Kabhi Gham" & "Kal Ho Na Ho' on my ref system & they sound much better than I was ever willing to imagine. They have been mastered overseas but I bought these CDs at Rhythm House in BOM.

So, next time you get a vinyl demo take some of your own music along on CDs. Of course, you'll have to ask your host about some of his music titles & hopefully you'll have some of the same music in CD format.

Vinyl is better than CDs but the CD quality has dramatically improved. Further, my CD-Rs often sound even better than the original store-bought CDs! So, the gap has narrowed a lot.
My local friend here is a 110% classical fan & he has played certain classical pieces on CD made by Reference Recordings & they have out-performed the vinyl equivalent! Shocking to both him & me, as both of us are very avid vinyl fans, but true. Luckily such instances are few & far between today. If this trend of CD sonic quality continues, I have a gut feeling that these occurances will increase!

Also, if your CD setup is carefully designed, the sonic quality can be very satisfying.
The other "curse" is that a lot of the music made in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s that was put on vinyl just cannot be found today for love or for money! One is simply forced to buy the CD equivalent. If that's the case, I thought, might as well get the CD setup the best one can make it.

Hi Bombaywalla,
Good to see that you got whats in my heart..
Things to ponder here are:

1. Why the hindi oldies classics are so badly mastered ? I mean literally they are tweaked to an extent of murder. The highs are made artificially bright, the bass is thin and one note, the mids are harsh and clinical....all this in one CD, thats murder and infact a deliberate murder...it looks like one needs to take a lot of pain to make it sound as bad

2. Yes, even I admit that many recent Hindi CDs which are mastered abroad are very good (cant say whether they are close to vinyls or not). BTW are vinyls manufactured for these recent hindi albums ?

3. What CD-R are you using which gives you a better version of the original CD ?

Hi Abhi,
"Do we get good vinyl in India?"
Yes..only hone up your begging skills! Tell everyone you know/meet that you are looking for old records..dont say vinyl..they wont know what that is. If you have friends in smaller towns with ancestral property the likely hood of keeping old things is higher.
The other option of course order online thru Musicdirect/Speakerscorner/audiophileusa etc. This is the expensive option but the quality of the LPs are unbelievable. Prithvi deals with the first two. I recently met a vinyl lover with an SME 20/2 who has a fantastic collection of LPs. He doesn't even own a CD or CDP. He has spent a fortune collecting over the years but his wife thinks he just exchanges and borrows and loans his records!
Be warned..if you get into vinyl your life will change..you may listen to CDs less often or not at all, you may become poor and you will learn to beg!
Jeeves

Hey Jeeves,
I have realised that Vinyls are addictive and thats the reason I am trying to locate the sources from where I can get them. I really dont know how deep I would plunge but I am willing to take a plunge into this
Atleast for next 5-6 months I am not thinking about this...but after that I may..

Abhi
May I suggest something?
Use the next 5/6 months trying to identify and get (initially dont buy unless you win a lottery) a decent cache of Lps say about a 100 to start. Once you have this done go for the best TT within your budget. Well thats what I did.
Anyway once you take the plunge let me assure you you will not be able to control how deep you go..
PS.The Mumbai members have another option...buying cheap at Chor bazaar.

I think there are decent choices of entry level TT's in bombay from Project starting 15K onwards. There is a 9.5K denon entry level one as well.

manek.

Hi all, FOr old LP's I know a guy from Chennai who has a shop here in Cochin as well as in Chennai. Raja Recors, in Richie street Chennai and RajaRecords, Ohm Lodge, MG Road Eranakulam. He keeps a lot of junk along with the Gems you are looking for, so you have to know how to visualy check the disc. His name is Mr. Raja and his son is managing the Chennai show, if you are decent and reasonable in your dealings he may be willing to take replace the faulty discs after trial at home. I have picked up a few Western Classical music LP's from him found it the cheapest way to enjoy those classics, few of them are available on XRCD which comes very close to the original and at times better than the LP

If you are serious into Vinyl do your self and LP's a favour get them cleaned before playing. A vacuum cleaning device is needed to get the job done properly but in its absence the kitchen sink method and a final rise with demineralised water+Iso propyl Alc can get you started.

Once you vacuum clean the LP 90% of the tick and pops are gone and the grove noise almost disappears. You have to hear it to belive it

Totally agree with Ani. I didn't mention it on my earlier post as I didn't want to scare Abhi! Well listening to Lps is akin to an audiophile tea ceremony! right from cleaning lps to the very deliberate movements and tasks needed to get sound out of them. Playing Cds is like having a cup at Coffee Day in comparison.
I have found cleaning my Lps makes them like new and improves the quality of the sound drastically. Best way to go is to use machines like nitty gritty/vpi etc. Again expensive but hey we are audiophiles right! And fortunately for me Prithvi has a cleaning service and charges per Lp.
Jeeves

Have you guys heard Techno on LPs
There I go shattering the soul of this thread..
I am really curious about this...I do listen to an Occasional Techno number (I have a few favourites)...I wonder how cool they can sound on LPs

abhi.pani schrieb:

Have you guys heard Techno on LPs There I go shattering the soul of this thread.. I am really curious about this...I do listen to an Occasional Techno number (I have a few favourites)...I wonder how cool they can sound on LPs :hail

I think there is a minor resurgence of the LP format, at least in Europe.I happened to see a lot of new stuff in a store in Heidelburg,a couple of months back, some of which may well have been techno.Unfortunately I don't know enough of the genre to be able to name artists o
r groups.

K

Have heard some real cool “ underground “ dance/techno numbers when that DJ Ivan was doing the rounds in Bangalore. Don’t know where that bugger is these days. He used to have boxes of these stuff and they sounded pretty good. Vinyl is bloody addictive.

abhi.pani schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla, Good to see that you got whats in my heart.. Things to ponder here are: 1. Why the hindi oldies classics are so badly mastered ? I mean literally they are tweaked to an extent of murder. The highs are made artificially bright, the bass is thin and one note, the mids are harsh and clinical....all this in one CD, thats murder and infact a deliberate murder...it looks like one needs to take a lot of pain to make it sound as bad

I don't think that I would have a definite answer to this one. I personally think that music, in each market, is offered to the public at its lowest common denominator. i.e. what kind of music & sound does the "janta" want. Not what some prissy audiophile wants!
If you step outside your house & just quietly stand on the road, you'll see people & traffic going by. Ask yourself: "if I flagged down the next car & told them that I like vinyl & that RD Burman CDs are badly mastered, what kind of response would I get?"
When you figure out the answer to that I feel that you'll have your answer to your question!

abhi.pani schrieb:

2. Yes, even I admit that many recent Hindi CDs which are mastered abroad are very good (cant say whether they are close to vinyls or not). BTW are vinyls manufactured for these recent hindi albums ?

not that I know of & I seriously doubt it. For the masses, esp. in India, vinyl is so "un-cool". You tell someone that you are into vinyl, they'll inform you that that the medium their grand-father & father used to listen to & that it's all "old & forgotten" stuff. It's not L-A-T-E-S-T!

abhi.pani schrieb:

3. What CD-R are you using which gives you a better version of the original CD ?

For audiophile recordings I use CD-Rs made in Japan. Any brand will do as long as it says "Made in Japan". Both the CD-R quality + the CD-R burner quality affect the end result. You'll need to get a hi-end burner. Also, recording at 1X speed makes a huge positive difference, I found.

abhi i used to stay in bombay with a guy who had rock and 70s disco lps. they sounded real good. dont think the genre really makes a diff. the recording and format (cd/lp) will be what counts more.

Bombaywalla,
What burner do you use to burn your CDs. Can you name a few brands of CD-R that you prefer for audiophile recordings. Are they available in India ?

abhi,

a plextor cdwriter is quite popular.

You should hear some good LP's played on vinyl setup. RD burman LP's are just a start.

manek.

Ya I have heard about Plextor (they are supposed to be on the expensive side...compared to stuffs like Samsung)..I currently use a Liteon CD writer...havent tried good CD-Rs though...still managing with Moser Baer Pro (suppose to be long lasting). But if there are better CD-Rs specifically reccomended for audio then I would be more than happy to try them out.

Hi Abni,

I have been using a Plextor DVD burner at home, for my audio disc burning. I also have a Sony --- Vanila flavour DVD burner in the office. Both are about a year old, do 4x DVD burning.

Plextor does have a Premium CD burner, burt its not availabler in Mumbai or Spore... atleast I have not been able to buy one.

I do have a fair 'collection' of CR music, and have looked into the issue of CDR music, at some length.

Before even dwelling in the Burner, the vburning speed and CDRs, I feel the BIGGEST improvement in the CDR sound is how you get it off from the original.

I would STRONGLY recommend "EXACT AUDIO COPY' or EAC as its popularly called.

Its a FREE download from the net, and pretty small ( a couple of MB ). The user manual is spare / not there, but if you have any problems, I would be happy to help.

Read off the Original with EAC set to "Max Quality" instead of Max Speed.

Unfortunately, EAC does not seem to recognise either of my burners, so I burn the WAV files using Itunes, which provides a 1x burning speed. Nero now seems to offer only 8x and higher.

That said, I have found little difference ( given my modest system, and almost 50 year old hearing ) between Discs burnt on Plextor or my Sony Drive....

PX scan is a free software that will analyse any CDs and tell you the jitter, and other errors. PX Scan tells me, graphgically, and wityh GREAT detail, that my CDRs are BETTER than the originals, in terms of the recorded quality of 0s and 1s.

I read that the new Mantra at International Hi Fi shows is to demo using CDRs, because the word is that the CDR recording prtovides superior sound.

Unfortunately for me, I find that the CDR copy has just that Ultimate touch missing.... the soul & Presence that is there on the original.

Nope, I dont work for a CD lable....

Try it and see.

Would love to hear from forum members on this topic...

Hi amp_Nut,
All in all you mean the following:

1. CD burner if decent enough does almost 99.5% of its job so no need to look at it initially.

2. Its the copy process that makes the difference so I should try EAC. (Till now I was using Nero Disc to Disc copy).

3. Burning speed matters (specifically 1X is the best).

4. Even after all this you found the original to be better sounding..

Ok, here is my question:

Does the quality of the CD-R matter ? I mean is it ok to go for any decent brands of CD-R available around (e,g Sony, Moser Baer etc) or there are better things available which can make noticeable differnce ?

You want the ultimate. Try this from mobile fidelity.
http://www.mofi.com/cdr.htm

Does the quality of the CD-R matter ? I mean is it ok to go for any decent brands of CD-R available around (e,g Sony, Moser Baer etc) or there are better things available which can make noticeable differnce ?

Frankly, I have Not compared CDRs. I think it WILL impact the music ? ?

However, what PX Scan tells me is that the copy on a Rs 10 CDR ( Samsung, Moser Baer ) is almost as good as it gets from a technical point of view ( Bit Error rate, Jitter etc ). Its as good, or a touch Better that what I see for an XRCD.

My complaint with CDRs is that they Do Have All The notes on then, what they Lack is the LiFE in the music.. hard to express. I wonder if better CDRs will deliver THAT ...

hmmmmmmmmm...........now thats a terrible thing to solve..

abhi.pani schrieb:

Bombaywalla, What burner do you use to burn your CDs. Can you name a few brands of CD-R that you prefer for audiophile recordings. Are they available in India ?

Like several others mentioned: Plextor Premium & Yamaha CRW-F1. I have the latter. Both are discontinued now.
Surpringly the TEAC CD burner in my laptop could also burn at 1X & it yielded some superbly recorded CD-Rs.

blank CD-Rs I use are: Fuji, Maxell, Mitsui Gold, Mobile Fidelity (too darn expensive), Apogee Gold.
I think that none are available in India, unfortunately.
Everything in the burning process makes a diff (given that your 2-ch setup can flesh out the details + your ears are trained to hear it). So, yes, I'll say that using Moser Baer blanks for audiophile grade recordings is making you come up short. You might not have any choice in India right now (bet that'll change soon!).
Anyway, I'm selective of what I record on the higher-end disks - i.e. what *I* consider to be high-grade music.

I've used Veritas software to burn & no issues so far. Only a few times did I get a glass coaster from the burning process. For ripping I've used CDEX & more recently I've used EAC as already stated by Amp_Nut.

maxell are available I think.

Hi Guys,

I would LOVE to hear from other forum members :

1. Can you hear a difference between the Original and CDR versions ?

2. If yes to the above, THEN can you hear differences between ANY 2 CDR brands ?

Thanks guys.

We are turning into "armchair scientists" ... hardly appropriate to our hobby....

P.S.
Maneck : Can you cut the last few messages on this thread, to another, new thread ?
This is hardly relevant to
"A recent experience with Vinyl" !

Surpringly the TEAC CD burner in my laptop could also burn at 1X & it yielded some superbly recorded CD-Rs.

TEAC Drives have consistently been rated as Excellent Audio CD copiers....

Hey guys could you reccommend some good online stores which has good collection of CDs and Vinyls..and ships to India at a reasonable cost.

While I have never used this, a friend is Very happy with Amazon.

Incidentally, CD prices in India are hard to beat....

Maybe you could ask friends in other cities if the CDs you want are available in their city ( in India )...

Hi amp_nut,
I know about Amazon and eBay.
I am just looking for something more dedicated like towerrecords.com etc etc...

hey Abhi...another one bites the vinyl dust eh?

not wanting to get dragged into the LP/CD debate, I would like to state that I usually found the LP sound warmer than the corresponding CD version, but I guess thats mainly dependant on the equipment...plus a lot is psychological when it comes to vinyls...

I have a few rock LPs but no TT as of now...had an ancient Sanyo but the sound was really amazing till the time I passed it on a few weeks ago...looking out for a replacement right now...once I have it, you are welcome for some more of vinyl magic!

Try elusivedisc.com for some good vinyls...

I would like to state that I usually found the LP sound warmer than the corresponding CD version, but I guess thats mainly dependant on the equipment...plus a lot is psychological when it comes to vinyls...

I tend to whole heartedly agree with you.

However, we often overlook that LPs and CDs are often equalised VERY differently.

Why even SACDs are equalised differently between their SACD & CD layers.....

abhi
try musicdirect.com, accousticsounds.com,audiophileusa.com,speakerscorner
Jeeves

Dear Soulforged,

I too agree with your very generalised observation of LP's being warmer, but some of the new CD release of older material are warmer than their original LP. Another recent experience was Best of Dire Straits & Mark Knopfler LP the CD is warmer that the New LP !!

So like what Amp-Nut said it all depends on how they are equalised.

Anil

great point ani & amp nut...its the way the recording is mastered that gives it its characteristics...

Most of my LPs are old hand-me-downs coming from the era where the recording techniques were not quite what they are today. Multi-channel, multi-track recording gives the sound engineer that much flexibility to equalise the sound to near perfection...but in the early days you had stereo or at best 8-tracks which did not leave much room for post-production tweaks. Add to that the material used in Indian pressings, which are not bad but not stupendous either...hence my observation that the sound from LP generally tended to be on the warmer side...

but listen to the audiophile LPs of today, like the MoFi Sound Labs, the bass is as tight as CD sometimes even better!

I also find a good quality LP's sound to be much more truer than the CD most of the times. The so called 'clarity' of the CD sometimes takes away the naturalness of the sound. Case in point - compare the musical cacophony of '21st Century Schizoid Man' between the original LP pressing and the 'digitally remastered' CD or the intro of 'Wish You Were Here'.

Having said that I still go for CDs a lot, not just because LPs are not that easily accessible but also because, as somebody rightly pointed out here, listening to LP is like a tea ceremony while CD is instant coffee...

BTW is Viren around? I'm sure he would have something to say about this...

I would like to state that I usually found the LP sound warmer than the corresponding CD version, but I guess thats mainly dependant on the equipment...plus a lot is psychological when it comes to vinyls...

...Or is it digital "glare" that's making the Vinyl sound warmer??

Shahrukh schrieb:

I would like to state that I usually found the LP sound warmer than the corresponding CD version, but I guess thats mainly dependant on the equipment...plus a lot is psychological when it comes to vinyls... ...Or is it digital "glare" that's making the Vinyl sound warmer?? :?

Digital "glare".Wot's dat