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Umfrage
Amplification
1. Tube (52.9 %, 9 Stimmen)
2. Solid State (47.1 %, 8 Stimmen)
(Die Umfrage ist beendet)

Amplification

+A -A
Autor
Beitrag
bhagwan69
Inventar
#1 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 04:20
http://www.theabsolu.../tubes_vs_trans.html

This may seem like a very very old topic, however, I have put it up again in light of this article that appeared in TAS. Please do try and read it.

Opinions & comments would be appreciated.

BHAGWAN

Manek
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 04:39
For me its valves....grew up with it...switched to solid state....stayed with that for a long time, back to valves again.

I will always have atleast one valve component in my system. Currently I am using a tube pre.....and there is no turning back.

I am still searching for that elusive combo of a tube pre and SS power to match but sadly havent found a very good match yet. The search is on !

Gutt feel tells me I will end up with a tube power amp finally.

Manek.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 07:46
Hi Bhagwan,

Thanks for the pointer.

I have been waiting to read this piece since TAS has been mentioning it, for atleast a couple of months, building up expectations, before it was published.

My take on it - Disappointing.

Its little more than a casual ( Polite ? ) chat.

NO New ground covered, and NO New insight on the topic at all.

Most seem to trumpet Valves, though not much ventilated on the limitations of Power Amplification delivery of valves. This will make a Valve guy's day ( I am a Valve guy) but farnkly, too many words and NOTHING New.

Oh Yes, of late TAS always has a dig at Stereophile, and they could not resist here too. THAT draged down the quality rating of the piece to below Zero....


I guess you disagree with them ? Cause your dream system isint Valve based ? ( Or is it ? Its all Very Esoteric, and I will look it up, tonight, when the day's work pressure subsides.. )
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 07:47
Hi Bhagwan,

Though I am a Tube guy in general, I am not comfortable rooting 100% for 1 tech or the other.... so I have not (yet ) voted...
Arj
Inventar
#5 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 08:09
like both but from pure practicality etc prefer SS.
wasm looking for tube sound in SS
Jeeves
Stammgast
#6 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 09:08
Bhagwan maybe you should add hybrids as well as a combo of both.
I go with arj a tubey sounding ss. But on the other hand like Manek looking for a tube pre/existing pwr amp.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#7 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 09:37


I go with arj a tubey sounding ss. But on the other hand like Manek looking for a tube pre/existing pwr amp.


Both you guys are asking for toooooo much !
ani
Stammgast
#8 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 11:23
Bhagwan, The article goes no where, it starts and end at the same point. May be the new tubes and SS are not at diametricaly opposite ends like modern Vinyl and CD playback systems are !!!

I have vote for tubes but am 100% sure that it has no value, show me a good SS amp I may buy it

One thing I have noticed is that tubes are easier (cannot call it better because have heard very good SS)at the point where Mech - Electrical - mech conversions are taking place. Like MC Phono preamp and mic preamps with transformer stepup and Power amps.

Anil


[Beitrag von ani am 09. Okt 2006, 15:50 bearbeitet]
deaf
Stammgast
#9 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 11:43
Well, I have heard SS amps that sound like tubes and stuff the other way round too.In my humble opinion it is just a gimmick to fill pages of a magazine.In the end it is completely a choice of priorities,even within the SS and tube domains.Tubes amps that measure extremely well sound like nothing at all,and the same goes for SS amps,they all sound natural,with minimum sonic fingerprints.It is when amps do not measure well that other aspects of auiophilia come into play.Bear in mind that I am not claiming all good measuring amps sound the same,I am merely stating that they have a lesser sonic finger print,the degrees may vary nontheless,and it is within these degrees that one must make his/her choice.
Deaf.
Manek
Inventar
#10 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 12:21
good point deaf.
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 13:28
Bhagwan,

it might be useful to add 1 more category - "hybrid" amplification.
it is esp. relevant today as there are a number of amps available with this sort of technique - Pathos, Music Reference/RAM Labs, Butler Audio, Moscode, JoLida to just name a few.
There are several people I was communicated with recently that have found "nirvana" (even tho it might be for the moment! ) in these hybrid amps.
My 2 paisa FWIW.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 16:21
Hi Bhagwan,

Your opinion & comments on that Article in TAS ?
Debu
Ist häufiger hier
#13 erstellt: 09. Okt 2006, 18:19
To me the only solid difference the article talks about is
I’ve measured dozens of tubed and solid-state amplifiers, and if you look at the harmonic distortion spectra of them, tubes produce primarily second and third harmonic components, but transistor distortion is more upper order, such as seventh and ninth harmonic.


This could possibly produce an audible difference why some people like tube so much.

However, I am yet to find a person who enjoys movies in tube gear, which means the tube shortcomings become glaring in the movie environment. To me a good amp is supposed to produce sound faithfully whether it is music or movie, or plain speech. Tube fails here, IMO.

- Debu
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#14 erstellt: 10. Okt 2006, 03:01
Hi Debu,

1. The point made about Harmonic content, is as old as the hills...

2. Home Theatre is a rather different animal from 2 channel audio.

HT needs to present an exaggerated - excessively dramatic audio presentation. This is due to various factors:

i. The Eyes and Ears are involved, BOTH competing for the brain's attention. Hence each ( audio & video ) aim for larger than life content and presentation.

ii. Often, as a direct consequence, HT 'needs' a more prominent bass, even bloated bass will pass off well, since part of the brain is stimulated visually, and the brain is less focused / analytical on the audio content.

3. HT content is more of Crash & Bang, ( than music ) and hence needs large power reserves, and impulse delivery. (Minor) distortions are more readily masked.

4. 5 High power channels of tube amplification will strain resources, generate LOTS of heat and ... produce a disturbing light during the HT experience.

In fact, a little appreciated fact is that HT equipment is often preferred in black, so that it wont reflect light off the screen......
ani
Stammgast
#15 erstellt: 10. Okt 2006, 03:41
Old movie houses used to have Big top cap RCA tubed amps and they used to belt out loud clear sound. Tubes lost their glory when reliable and cheaper SS replaced them just as in th case of PA systems.
square_wave
Inventar
#16 erstellt: 10. Okt 2006, 08:46
If money is no issue and I have a big enough house and room with proper cooling, I may want “monstrous valve monoblocks” driving some super-high end electrostatic / hybrid speakers But let’s be practical, with limited resources and houses we have to put up with , a hybrid setup is what I would want. Tube preamp and a decent SS poweramp.
bhagwan69
Inventar
#17 erstellt: 10. Okt 2006, 10:09

square_wave schrieb:
If money is no issue and I have a big enough house and room with proper cooling, I may want “monstrous valve monoblocks” driving some super-high end electrostatic / hybrid speakers But let’s be practical, with limited resources and houses we have to put up with , a hybrid setup is what I would want. Tube preamp and a decent SS poweramp.


We are dreaming here;

Options ?

Names ?

Dreams ?

Lust ?

That is what I want to know, what is it that we dream about; Forget what we can afford or rather want to afford.

More often than not, we CAN AFFORD the gear, but our BRAIN stops us from spending on it, well that is what I have seen most of my 'audiophile' friends doing.

So let it go, tell me what you are crazy about !!

BHAGWAN

BTW - Audio is a very very cheap hobby !! Be happy we do not love Watches or Cars or Jewellery or Houses !!!
10 lacs [about the price of a 'C' segment car] and you will have a rather good set up. That too in front of your eyes each morning. That car is parked on the road, some 'bahiya' will scratch it & your cleaner never washes it well. I could go on and on..........
Krish
Stammgast
#18 erstellt: 10. Okt 2006, 10:33

bhagwan69 schrieb:

square_wave schrieb:
If money is no issue and I have a big enough house and room with proper cooling, I may want “monstrous valve monoblocks” driving some super-high end electrostatic / hybrid speakers But let’s be practical, with limited resources and houses we have to put up with , a hybrid setup is what I would want. Tube preamp and a decent SS poweramp.


We are dreaming here;

Options ?

Names ?

Dreams ?

Lust ?

That is what I want to know, what is it that we dream about; Forget what we can afford or rather want to afford.

More often than not, we CAN AFFORD the gear, but our BRAIN stops us from spending on it, well that is what I have seen most of my 'audiophile' friends doing.

So let it go, tell me what you are crazy about !!

BHAGWAN

BTW - Audio is a very very cheap hobby !! Be happy we do not love Watches or Cars or Jewellery or Houses !!!
10 lacs [about the price of a 'C' segment car] and you will have a rather good set up. That too in front of your eyes each morning. That car is parked on the road, some 'bahiya' will scratch it & your cleaner never washes it well. I could go on and on..........


Gosh!! I never thought of it that way.That makes so much sense.
ani
Stammgast
#19 erstellt: 10. Okt 2006, 11:05
HI all

If you are looking for less expensive hobbies I can name a few

1. Fishing, angling in Deep sea
2. A boat suitable for fishing in deep sea, say a full ocean going yatch
3. Game Hunting
4. Art collection.

Phew our audiophile can justify the price even to a communist
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#20 erstellt: 10. Okt 2006, 16:58

ani schrieb:
HI all

If you are looking for less expensive hobbies I can name a few

2. A boat suitable for fishing in deep sea, say a full ocean going yatch
4. Art collection.


kyun Bhai, joke maar rahe ho?
do you honestly believe that a full ocean going yatch is less expensive than audio?
Ditto for an art collection?


ani schrieb:

Phew our audiophile can justify the price even to a communist :)

I agree there are some audio salesmen who could sell a camel to an Arab!
SuhasG
Ist häufiger hier
#21 erstellt: 11. Okt 2006, 05:05

Manek schrieb:


I am still searching for that elusive combo of a tube pre and SS power to match but sadly havent found a very good match yet. The search is on !


Manek.


Did you check Jolida 1301 or 1501 Int amp. Both are having a Tube pre stage and SS (MOSFET) power stage.

I own Jolida 1501 RC (100 wpc) and love it. Mahendarabhai Dave of Cadence sells Joilida products (I got my entire system from him, including ARITAs).
Manek
Inventar
#22 erstellt: 11. Okt 2006, 07:16
yes I did try it
I am looking for a power amp to pair with my tube pre. Not looking for an integrated amp.

manek.
Arj
Inventar
#23 erstellt: 11. Okt 2006, 08:58
manek, if you get a chance to listen/get a first hand report to an Electrocmpaniet amp please do give it a listen. i always thought it would make a wonderful complement to a tube pre. its very smooth and clean.

i have their pre amp and it is not only good sonically but also good eye candy !!
deaf
Stammgast
#24 erstellt: 11. Okt 2006, 10:41
Hell Manek you should get the Canasyas with a five year payment scheme,just ask Ajay when he is a good mood, he may just do it for you.
Regards Deaf.
P.S:I am not kidding,he is a beautifully crazy, passionate guy, who may agree, just because he knows you are truly a die hard Cadence Fan.
Manek
Inventar
#25 erstellt: 11. Okt 2006, 11:53
Deaf.. I just may do that !

Manek.
Manek
Inventar
#26 erstellt: 11. Okt 2006, 11:54
arj, wonder who sells electro here in mumbai ?
Arj
Inventar
#27 erstellt: 11. Okt 2006, 13:08
sorry about that.i really dont know about tha availability


in fact except for the DAC i thought every other piece in the chain was too good and hence went for a Electrocompaniet Pre in my setup as well.

anyway just a suggestion in case you get a chance .. i know availibility in india really may not work out .

check this out


square_wave
Inventar
#28 erstellt: 11. Okt 2006, 13:20

Manek schrieb:
arj, wonder who sells electro here in mumbai ?


Check out this guy for Electrocompaniet.
Faisal.
www.soundofmusic.cc
soundofmusic@swissmail.org

Last time I checked the price for pwr amps were as follows..with a 10 percent discount.
AW70 - Rs. 110,000/-
AW120 - Rs. 175,000/-
screamgigi
Stammgast
#29 erstellt: 11. Okt 2006, 15:52
Looking at the all those stratospheric costs, I am now more convinced that DIY is a practical solution for everyday folks like us who wish to acquire a reasonably nice system at an affordable cost.

More power to DIY
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#30 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 02:17
One pitfall of DIY is that it clouds rational judgements.

It has GOT to sound great because I BUILT it, and its the BEST Circuit, & I even used Black gate capacitors.... etc
bhagwan69
Inventar
#31 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 04:57

Amp_Nut schrieb:
One pitfall of DIY is that it clouds rational judgements.

It has GOT to sound great because I BUILT it, and its the BEST Circuit, & I even used Black gate capacitors.... etc


I could not agree more.
Well put;

Bhagwan
bhagwan69
Inventar
#32 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 05:03

Manek schrieb:
Deaf.. I just may do that !

Manek.


With due respect to yourself & 'deaf' the Canasya may not be a product for you.

The rest of your 'chain' will have to be over hauled.

Besides, if I understand correct, you were on the look out for a 'good' solid state power amplifier ? Is that not so ?

The Canasya is a Hybrid design. SS driver Stage with Tube output stage.

Great Power Amplifier - none the less - besides really very very good value for money product, i.e. if you do not get the Nuforce & Flyingmoles into the equation.

BTW - you should give the FM's a try.
I have a pair at home - been sent to me for evaluation. Can give them to you for a couple of days to try out. PM me if you would be interested.

Bhagwan
square_wave
Inventar
#33 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 05:48

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Manek schrieb:
Deaf.. I just may do that !

Manek.


With due respect to yourself & 'deaf' the Canasya may not be a product for you.

The rest of your 'chain' will have to be over hauled.

Besides, if I understand correct, you were on the look out for a 'good' solid state power amplifier ? Is that not so ?

The Canasya is a Hybrid design. SS driver Stage with Tube output stage.

Great Power Amplifier - none the less - besides really very very good value for money product, i.e. if you do not get the Nuforce & Flyingmoles into the equation.

BTW - you should give the FM's a try.
I have a pair at home - been sent to me for evaluation. Can give them to you for a couple of days to try out. PM me if you would be interested.

Bhagwan


Hey Manek,
Check it out man..........It would be interesting. If the FMs sound even 90 percent as good as a nuforce, it should be a fantastic buy.........
Don’t close your mind to switching amps. Even Jeff Rowland, Linn, Kharma..are into these things now………..


[Beitrag von square_wave am 12. Okt 2006, 05:52 bearbeitet]
sivat
Stammgast
#34 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 06:16

Amp_Nut schrieb:
One pitfall of DIY is that it clouds rational judgements.

It has GOT to sound great because I BUILT it, and its the BEST Circuit, & I even used Black gate capacitors.... etc


I would assume the same will be true when you trust and buy a power amp for 1 lakh, from a well known brand. How many of us will agree that a power amp that we just bought for 2 lakh...is really not that good.

Whether DIY or a ready product...the initial hang-over will definetly cloud our rational thoughts. After sometime - we will start to see to real picture and the reality will dawn on us. So this is aspect is not specific to DIY.

The very idea behind "branding" is to cloud rational judgement i would say ;). People believe so strongly in a brand of thier choice and they completely ignore other/better products. For example a friend of mine bought a Corrolla....which we all thought was simply the best car in that price range. It was only after the initial honey moon period that we all start to realize how bad the build quality was ... when compared to the same product sold in US. But during the inital honey moon period...all of us had only praise for the car.



Regards
Siva.


[Beitrag von sivat am 12. Okt 2006, 06:22 bearbeitet]
screamgigi
Stammgast
#35 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 06:20

Amp_Nut schrieb:
One pitfall of DIY is that it clouds rational judgements.

It has GOT to sound great because I BUILT it, and its the BEST Circuit, & I even used Black gate capacitors.... etc

It depends actually on the attitude and perception.

If I like the performance of what I build, then why not? Good parts are only a tool to reach that goal. As Viren-ji has put its so nicely in a post, it’s the implementation that counts. BlackGate or not. Actually I do something better than the BG. I have NO electrolyte whatsoever in my builds. Just use the Rs. 30 NOS ex-military oil filled caps. I am happy with the result.

So what do I do? Spend my limited fortune on those esoteric brands so cheerfully mentioned here? Or go DIY where I really control what I do and tune the end product to my own likening? Answer is very clear. I will continue building el-cheapo stuff and save money for more brick-and-mortar activities. It does not mean that i will try an DIY a CDP from grounds up. Rather I will tweak that CDP so that it performs at its best.


You don’t necessary have to really "DIY" your self. Check out Lyrita or Corrson. They are as close to DIY as it could be. They may even voice a product to your liking. I doubt that kind of service will be provided by any mega $$$ brands so cherished here.


[Beitrag von screamgigi am 12. Okt 2006, 06:21 bearbeitet]
screamgigi
Stammgast
#36 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 06:36

sivat schrieb:

Amp_Nut schrieb:
One pitfall of DIY is that it clouds rational judgements.

It has GOT to sound great because I BUILT it, and its the BEST Circuit, & I even used Black gate capacitors.... etc


I would assume the same will be true when you trust and buy a power amp for 1 lakh, from a well known brand. How many of us will agree that a power amp that we just bought for 2 lakh...is really not that good.

Whether DIY or a ready product...the initial hang-over will definetly cloud our rational thoughts. After sometime - we will start to see to real picture and the reality will dawn on us. So this is aspect is not specific to DIY.

The very idea behind "branding" is to cloud rational judgement i would say ;). People believe so strongly in a brand of thier choice and they completely ignore other/better products. For example a friend of mine bought a Corrolla....which we all thought was simply the best car in that price range. It was only after the initial honey moon period that we all start to realize how bad the build quality was ... when compared to the same product sold in US. But during the inital honey moon period...all of us had only praise for the car.



Regards
Siva.

So nicely put. Most old economy folks like me have been through these situations
Arj
Inventar
#37 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 06:58
you may be stepping on the shoes of some of the ad men in our forum :
SWITCH-IT-ON
Ist häufiger hier
#38 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 07:40

Manek schrieb:
For me its valves....grew up with it...switched to solid state....stayed with that for a long time, back to valves again.

I will always have atleast one valve component in my system. Currently I am using a tube pre.....and there is no turning back.

I am still searching for that elusive combo of a tube pre and SS power to match but sadly havent found a very good match yet. The search is on !

Gutt feel tells me I will end up with a tube power amp finally.

Manek.


Dear Manek,

I am a solid state guy from start to finish. Speed and neutrality are my basic wants in any setup and valves just donot do so. However, I have been fortunate to hear a setup in Singapore that would rejuvinate your quest as mentioned by you. I made me sit-up and listen for sure. The Cabling was Nordost Valhalla all thru with the VTL TL2.5 valve pre and the GamuT D200 S.S. power amp driving KEF Reference speakers. To me it was a perfect setup with all the virtues of a S.S. amp with the magic of valves. Let me tell you.. I was tempted.. and thats their entry level pre I was told. So there... I have got one setup for you. Lovely "Hi-End" sound.

Cheers.
Manek
Inventar
#39 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 07:54
Bhagwan,
i do realise that upstream components need to be far better and I also do know the canasya amp is not in my budget currently(full downpayment or installments) just dreaming...doesnt cost much to dream
Yes, you are right, I am looking a for a decent SS power amp. Have heard the nuforce 8.5. I was kicked the first time becuase they sounded a bit different but then on two subsequent listens wasnt impressed that much and concluded they were not the amps I want to live with. So I left it at that.

Flying moles ? I really dont know what to expect out of them but may give it a shot. I am more in favour of the good old class AB with a torroid. Am in no tearing hurry to get an amp...Someday I'm sure it will come

Manek.
Arj
Inventar
#40 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 07:59

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:
GamuT D200 S.S. power amp


had the fortune of listening to it as well (was it in soundscape Hi Fi ?)
really neutral and smooth. should make it to the list of those components that are not really "popular" and whose performance speaks more than the words used to speak about it !!
Arj
Inventar
#41 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 08:02

Manek schrieb:

Flying moles ? I really dont know what to expect out of them but may give it a shot. I am more in favour of the good old class AB with a torroid. Am in no tearing hurry to get an amp...Someday I'm sure it will come


you might be pretty surprised with the spound..As a suggestion, just dont "think" digital when you hear them as the thought might tend to cloud perception.

try to play a lot of high energy music particularly in the high frequency area ( triangles, violins or the piccolo kinds) and see if it matches your tastes !

i have heard it only once but have heard a lot more good things about it than the nuforce (being a japanese design it is sure to be more analogue)
deaf
Stammgast
#42 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 08:11
Dear Amp Nut,
With regards to "I built it so it has to sound nice",extends to all human beings including manufacturers.I will extend it a bit further,"I own it,so it is the best,or it is my passionate brand,so it cannot be bad etc etc".All audiophiles,DIYers including myself are victim to this.
The fact remains there is no best that any five people can agree upon,hence each to his/her own thoughts and therefore learning process.
The smart ones try to learn from smarter people than themselves,the rest take their own journey in life,which too is quite alright, as long as one is happy doing what he/she is doing.
Deaf.

PS:I am sorry if my comments offend anybody,please forgive me as it is not my intention to do so.
deaf
Stammgast
#43 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 08:14

Arj schrieb:

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:
GamuT D200 S.S. power amp


had the fortune of listening to it as well (was it in soundscape Hi Fi ?)
really neutral and smooth. should make it to the list of those components that are not really "popular" and whose performance speaks more than the words used to speak about it !!


Dear Arj
You really are something of a listener,my compliments to you friend.
Deaf.
sivat
Stammgast
#44 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 15:27

Arj schrieb:
you may be stepping on the shoes of some of the ad men in our forum : :D


oops

Did'nt mean too.....i'm sure the ad-men will pardon my ignorance
Arj
Inventar
#45 erstellt: 12. Okt 2006, 18:05
hey poll organiser ! when do we get the results of the poll..
stevieboy
Stammgast
#46 erstellt: 13. Okt 2006, 05:46

oops

Did'nt mean too.....i'm sure the ad-men will pardon my ignorance


dont worry siva. we're guilty as charged. but more on that topic after this commercial break...
Shahrukh
Inventar
#47 erstellt: 13. Okt 2006, 05:49

stevieboy schrieb:

oops

Did'nt mean too.....i'm sure the ad-men will pardon my ignorance


dont worry siva. we're guilty as charged. but more on that topic after this commercial break... :)


Hey, everybody's gotta earn their daily bread. Bose says they make teh world's best speakers, we admen wholeheartedly agree! All for a small sum though. And everybody's happy!!

Well, almost!
Arj
Inventar
#48 erstellt: 13. Okt 2006, 22:07

Manek schrieb:
yes I did try it
I am looking for a power amp to pair with my tube pre. Not looking for an integrated amp.

manek.


would a Unison Research S2 Int. amplifier interest you ? the pre is just a volume pot and can be bypassed

another british oldy is croft..very traditionally british amp and sound. have never heard it though

just check these used ones here out here. these guys do ship internationally and when i had checked up some time back are very reliable

http://www.hifi.com.sg/2ndhand/2ndhand.asp


[Beitrag von Arj am 13. Okt 2006, 22:10 bearbeitet]
Manek
Inventar
#49 erstellt: 14. Okt 2006, 04:27
Arj,
12 watts ! I think something with a little more grunt would do better. Cadence Va is also a volume pot and a power amp.

Thanks for the tip though.

Manek.
screamgigi
Stammgast
#50 erstellt: 14. Okt 2006, 07:07
If you don’t party every evening and don’t need to blast neighbours window panes, then those 12 tube watts should be good enough. Even with moderate efficiency speakers. Give it a try.
Arj
Inventar
#51 erstellt: 14. Okt 2006, 07:45
i use a 9W amp with 89db speakers and the volume pot in my pre is at 25% for decent loud and at 50 it gets rather unbearable!!!
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