High-End Audio in India

viren schrieb:

If we can establish that link with the consumer, demonstrate the value of our products, the market will grow. Confidence between the buyer and the seller is the link! Viren.

Absolutely sir.

Regards
SNV

Some reasons which I feel affect growth of hi-end in India.

1. The average budding audiophile in India earns much lesser than what his counterpart in the US / Europe earns but the price of the equipment is fifty percent more here. What a stupid predicament! All thanks to stupid policies by incompetent bureaucrats.
2. Lack of awareness / mind block against locally designed good products.
3. Lack of individualized attention and education for the budding audiophile. Some dealers do this but most don’t. Each audiophile is different and they need to be treated differently.
4. Lack of exposure to quality live-music or lack of live-music culture.
5. Lastly WAF……….Well, I know a couple of guys who have shelved all their plans for a hi-end two channel because they feel they will be ridiculed. They have lifestyle HT setups now. The wives and their friends are happy now.
6. Lack of promotion by media. The TV, Magazines, newspapers….they all boycott HIFI in favor of lifestyle toys. Now they want all to listen to music on the mobile phones. I recently had one socialite lady ask me if her mobile can be connected to my valve pre-amplifier….I told there will be an impedance issue. Don’t ask me what happened after that. That is the sad state of affairs.

The average budding audiophile in India earns much lesser than what his counterpart in the US / Europe earns but the price of the equipment is fifty percent more here. What a stupid predicament! All thanks to stupid policies by incompetent bureaucrats.

The latter part may not be entirely true...apart form bureaucrats and policies, there are still a couple of instances of goods offered which are on par with the foreign markets inclusive of duties and taxes....

Manek.

I think it's worth repeating what high-end audio is all about. There are too many misconceptions floating around, propounded by manufacturers, dealers, audiophiles - some of us in this very forum.

I'm going to take the liberty of paraphrasing Robert Harley, from his book "The Complete Guide to High-End Audio" :

What Is High-End Audio?

"High-end audio is about passion - passion for music, and for how well it is reproduced.

The high-end ethos - that music and the quality of its reproduction matter - is manifested in high-end audio products. High-end products are designed by ear, built by hand, and exist for one reason - to enhance the experience of music listening.

A common misconception among the hi-fi consuming public is that high-end audio means high-priced audio. In the mass-market mind, high-end audio is nothing more than elaborate stereo equipment with fancy features and price tags aimed at millionares. Sure, the performance may be a little better than the hi-fi you find at your local appliance store, but who can afford it? Morover, high-end audio is seen as being only for trained, discriminating listeners, snobs, or gadget freaks - but not for the average person on the street.

High-end audio is none of these things.

First, the term "high-end" refers to the products' performance, not their price. Many true high-end systems cost no more - and often less - than the all-in-one rack systems sold in department stores. I've heard many inexpensive systems that capture the essence of what high-quality music reproduction is all about - systems easily within the budgets of average consumers.

Second, high-end audio is about communicating the music experience, not adding elaborate, difficult-to-operate features. High-end audio is for music lovers, not electronic whizzes.

Third, anyone who likes music can immediately appreciate the value of high-quality sound reproduction. It doesn't take a "golden ear" to know what sounds good.

Finally, the goal of high-end audio is to make the equipment "disappear". High-end audio isn't about equipment; it's about music.

What is high-end audio? What is high-end sound? It is when the playback system is forgotten, seemingly replaced by the performers in your listening room. It is when you feel the composer or performer speaking across time and space to you. It is feeling a physical rush during a musical climax. It is the ineffable roller-coaster ride of emotion the composer somehow managed to encode in a combination of sounds. It is when the physical world disappears, leaving only your consciousness and the music.

That is high-end."

This was penned in 1994. We've had so many years to mull over this. Have we learnt anything? Are we providing products of the best value for Indian consumers? Think about it!

Viren.

Viren, let me 1st say that I'm COMPLETELY in agreement with you! We've had our share of differences on various matters but on this matter I concur with you.


However, this scenario that we audiophiles yearn for worldwide would exist if this world was more ideal!
IMHO, the way I rationalize this is that hi-end audio is a luxury item. No matter how you slice-and-dice it, it is a luxury item. It is NOT like Colgate toothpaste where everybody NEEDS to have one. Having said this, it follows that the market will be a niche market (as correctly stated by you) that might be (or might not be) ripe for growth. The only way that it will grow is when the citizens of a nation consider:

It is when the playback system is forgotten, seemingly replaced by the performers in your listening room. It is when you feel the composer or performer speaking across time and space to you. It is feeling a physical rush during a musical climax. It is the ineffable roller-coaster ride of emotion the composer somehow managed to encode in a combination of sounds. It is when the physical world disappears, leaving only your consciousness and the music.

to be a necessary criteria for their everyday living. The West seems to have reached a critical mass of such people (you know very well that even in the West the % of this audiophile population is very small compared to the total population) where a niche industry like hi-end audio can survive. And, I mean literally SURVIVE and no more! I know several audio manuf personally who have been in the business for many years (10+ & some approaching 30 years!) who overall live well & their products are very well respected in the audio community but they are not rich by any standard. Very, very few audio personalities who are rich from audio come to mind. I think that I can count them on 1 hand.
OTOH, up & coming nations like India have only just begun their journey into a vibrant economy wherein a LOT more people will be able to participate & enjoy the fruits of their labour. So, at this time, the ehtos of hi-end is not a criteria of their everyday living. Take away the drink of TEA from an Indian & you will have rebellion on your hands! Tea is an essential part of Indian living. Audio is not - not just yet! It will take time.......
Even in developed nations of the West, I would not hesitate to say, the ranks are filled with bone-heads who are EXTREMELY happy to equate hi-end to hi-spend. Many manufacturers have acceeded to this demand from the consumer & have filled their product portfolios with US $100K speakers. They (manuf) say that unless they have a speaker that costs US $100K no one in the audio consumer society takes them seriously from the vantage that their speaker can reproduce sound accurately. Thus, to a large extent in the West, the idiot consumer has forced the audio manufacturer to to equate hi-end to hi-spend. The Western consumer has a large part of the blame to shoulder by thinking that only equipment costing thousands & thousands of dollars is the only way that sound can be accurately reproduced.
Couple this fallacy with the fact that labour is expensive in any developed nation. Couple these 2 items with a third aspect - the audio market is a niche market hence total sales of products are in the 100s of units at best and you can easily calculate how electronics + cables + speakers carry the price tags that they do. Unfortunately, the economies of scale force the manuf to price items high so that they can survive to manuf more!
You also know that when the human instinct is reduced to/degraded to SURVIVAL, the human-being or its manuf entity sheds any pretences of doing good to the community it intended to serve in the 1st place & concentrates on the act of SURVIVAL - what should I manufacture & how should I price it so that I/my manuf entity can be alive next year?

square_wave schrieb:

Some reasons which I feel affect growth of hi-end in India. 1. The average budding audiophile in India earns much lesser than what his counterpart in the US / Europe earns but the price of the equipment is fifty percent more here. What a stupid predicament! All thanks to stupid policies by incompetent bureaucrats. 2. Lack of awareness / mind block against locally designed good products. Not entirely True !! 3. Lack of individualized attention and education for the budding audiophile. Some dealers do this but most don’t. Each audiophile is different and they need to be treated differently. Cannot Agree More !!! 4. Lack of exposure to quality live-music or lack of live-music culture. Enough and more is there. We just need to go and make that effort to attend the concerts. 5. Lastly WAF……….Well, I know a couple of guys who have shelved all their plans for a hi-end two channel because they feel they will be ridiculed. They have lifestyle HT setups now. The wives and their friends are happy now. This is personal - I cannot comment on it. I personally am on the other side of the fence. 6. Lack of promotion by media. The TV, Magazines, newspapers….they all boycott HIFI in favor of lifestyle toys. Now they want all to listen to music on the mobile phones. I recently had one socialite lady ask me if her mobile can be connected to my valve pre-amplifier….I told there will be an impedance issue. Don’t ask me what happened after that. That is the sad state of affairs.

That is so cute - was she a preety lady ?? Sorry Just Kidding. This was just to make this topic light.

I will write on this topic. Interesting. Thanks Viren.

square_wave schrieb:

I recently had one socialite lady ask me if her mobile can be connected to my valve pre-amplifier….I told there will be an impedance issue. Don’t ask me what happened after that. That is the sad state of affairs.

Impedance issue???
certainly when anybody wants to connect a MP3/portable player to any electronics, you cannot make the connection directly.
But that is NOT what she meant!
C'mon man! you know better than to interpret her question in a literal way!
Yes, we should be able to connect a cellphone to a stereo shortly IF we can come up with a converter box that can take the format of the music from the cellphone & convert it to something a DAC can decode. The cellphone being a music storage gadget is very new & no one has yet converted this need into a product. I can bet that several people are working on it under wraps!
It will be just like having a USB DAC (say, from Scott Nixon) to connect your computer to your stereo or having a boom-box like gadget to plug in an iPOD.

Several people must have asked "can I connect my computer hard-drive to my stereo?"
Did we roll our eyes & say "there is an impedance issue"? We solved the issues, didn't we?
This one is next......

viren schrieb:

First, the term "high-end" refers to the products' performance, not their price. Many true high-end systems cost no more - and often less - than the all-in-one rack systems sold in department stores. I've heard many inexpensive systems that capture the essence of what high-quality music reproduction is all about - systems easily within the budgets of average consumers..

High End = High Fadelity

The 2nd part of the statement would be better understood with axamples; Could you please be so kind so as to share some experiances, please.........

square_wave schrieb:

1. The average budding audiophile in India earns much lesser than what his counterpart in the US / Europe earns but the price of the equipment is fifty percent more here. What a stupid predicament! All thanks to stupid policies by incompetent bureaucrats.

The Guys in Europe / USA only have more choice. Chance of Demo etc.

Our Indian Duties are very very low now. Less that 30 % now. Excluding VAT & Octroi.

The Retail prices in India are at par with international retail or 5 to 10 % higher & we get 15 to 20 % discount. That to me is a great deal. With demo i.e. Except AVI [This I will comment on seperately] There is a full justification for their prices.

I have a few gripes;

A] Understanding by Dealers / Distributors.
People who do not know head or tail of audio start distributing / dealing in hi fi. Designer Audio for eg. I love Dilipbhai & Kshitej is a dear friend, but their knowledge in Audio - That is a different story all together. Sorry guys !!!

B] Too many distributors & very very few dealers.

C] Not enough Demo Rooms.

Moe later.

Bombaywalla said :

Yes, we should be able to connect a cellphone to a stereo shortly IF we can come up with a converter box that can take the format of the music from the cellphone & convert it to something a DAC can decode. The cellphone being a music storage gadget is very new & no one has yet converted this need into a product. I can bet that several people are working on it under wraps! It will be just like having a USB DAC (say, from Scott Nixon) to connect your computer to your stereo or having a boom-box like gadget to plug in an iPOD.

Incidentally, the Cellphone CAN be connected directly to a Hi-Fi or any audio amplifier.

All you really need is an apptropriate adapter plug between the Celphone's earphone output and the amp.

At Lamington road, a Nokia earphone to walkman / ipod headphone adapter is freely available for Rs 20.

viren schrieb:

"High-end audio is about passion - passion for music, and for how well it is reproduced. The high-end ethos - that music and the quality of its reproduction matter - is manifested in high-end audio products. High-end products are designed by ear, built by hand, and exist for one reason - to enhance the experience of music listening.

Hi Viren,
I could not agree more wholeheartedly with you on this in terms of idealism and i feel can understand where you are coming in from.
My opinion is that unfortunately for us at some level , for objects involving ownership, "Value" is directly equated to money spent rather than its intrinsic value (in terms of what we want in sound). and this is not only for audio. it is true for photography, in clothes, jewellery and also in cellphones to name just a few.

while many of us here in this forum and in other forums may fully agree with you, i doubt if too many will not still lust after the Sonus Fabers/Mark Levinsons and the Krells ! I am of course not even mentioning the Bose/B&O Genre here

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Our Indian Duties are very very low now. Less that 30 % now. Excluding VAT & Octroi. The Retail prices in India are at par with international retail or 5 to 10 % higher & we get 15 to 20 % discount. That to me is a great deal. With demo i.e. Except AVI [This I will comment on seperately] There is a full justification for their prices.

A certain CD player retails in US for US$900 with 1 US$ = Rs 40 (assume) it becomes Rs 36,000 . But it is being offered in India by a very reputed Audio dealer for Rs 60,000 , final price no discounts.

Another Europian CD player retails in UK for Euro 650 with 1 Euro = Rs 59 (assume) it becomes Rs 38,350 . But it is being offered in India by a dealer for Rs 65,000 , possible 2k~3K discount.

Prices in India are almost double of RETAIL prices in US/EU while dealers in India must be getting their goods at Whole sale (dealer's) prices!

ANd further when I buy either in US or Europe I get full ( 1 year minimum) warranty , perhaps a 15/30 days no question asked Return policy. Here .. you know the story!!!

Hi,

The intent of high-end audio has always been to encourage consumers to pursue enjoyment of music at home. For a consumer to reach that level of consciousness, and to accept that as a personal goal, sometimes takes a lot of time. Only when you desire that yourself, will you go and seek it in the right combination of equipment.

I view the job of a dealer in helping the consumer towards that goal. The stress again is on performance - and that performance has to take into account the limitations of the consumer. The dealer should be able to put together musical systems at various price points, and demonstrate their performance. That's the value of a dealer - to give you choice and performance.

For that, a dealer has to really know the equipment he carries, and what combinations work best. And believe me, there is enough good equipment to be had, at affordable prices too. We are talking about India; and Indian incomes are limited. If the dealer just peddles some well publicised brands, he is not really high-end.

Viren.

G_S_Madhav schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb: Our Indian Duties are very very low now. Less that 30 % now. Excluding VAT & Octroi. The Retail prices in India are at par with international retail or 5 to 10 % higher & we get 15 to 20 % discount. That to me is a great deal. With demo i.e. Except AVI [This I will comment on seperately] There is a full justification for their prices. A certain CD player retails in US for US$900 with 1 US$ = Rs 40 (assume) it becomes Rs 36,000 . But it is being offered in India by a very reputed Audio dealer for Rs 60,000 , final price no discounts. Another Europian CD player retails in UK for Euro 650 with 1 Euro = Rs 59 (assume) it becomes Rs 38,350 . But it is being offered in India by a dealer for Rs 65,000 , possible 2k~3K discount. Prices in India are almost double of RETAIL prices in US/EU while dealers in India must be getting their goods at Whole sale (dealer's) prices! ANd further when I buy either in US or Europe I get full ( 1 year minimum) warranty , perhaps a 15/30 days no question asked Return policy. Here .. you know the story!!!

Dear G_S_MADHAV,

The European cd player you have mentioned in your post is for 650 pounds and not euros.

A pound today is about 85. My import was when it was almost 90.

So, 650 pounds X 90 = rs 58,500/-.

Current MRP is rs 65,000/- less the discount which i offer is 10% brings the figure to exactly rs 58,500/-

There you go, UK MRP offered in India after paying duty, excise, freight, octroi and VAT.

FYI, import duty is about 40% and only in India do we pay duty on the freight as well.

I really would like to inform everyone that the picture is not that rosy as it seems to be.

Regards
SNV

Isnt there a 17.7 % VAT in UK which is not applicable for Non Eu nations ?

hence net extra duty should be (40-17.7)) 23.3%+ 1.4 x freight right ?

freight + insurance is approximately 3-4 euros per KG if total shipment is above 100Kgs

G_S_Madhav schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb: Our Indian Duties are very very low now. Less that 30 % now. Excluding VAT & Octroi. The Retail prices in India are at par with international retail or 5 to 10 % higher & we get 15 to 20 % discount. That to me is a great deal. With demo i.e. Except AVI [This I will comment on seperately] There is a full justification for their prices. A certain CD player retails in US for US$900 with 1 US$ = Rs 40 (assume) it becomes Rs 36,000 . But it is being offered in India by a very reputed Audio dealer for Rs 60,000 , final price no discounts. Another Europian CD player retails in UK for Euro 650 with 1 Euro = Rs 59 (assume) it becomes Rs 38,350 . But it is being offered in India by a dealer for Rs 65,000 , possible 2k~3K discount. Prices in India are almost double of RETAIL prices in US/EU while dealers in India must be getting their goods at Whole sale (dealer's) prices! ANd further when I buy either in US or Europe I get full ( 1 year minimum) warranty , perhaps a 15/30 days no question asked Return policy. Here .. you know the story!!!

I agree with you whole heartedly. This is the case most of the time. I can cite so many other examples. There are notable exceptions though but they are very few. If what Bhagwan says is true, the pricing should be 10 - 15 percent more than US or EU prices. I can even tolerate even 15 to 20 percent but 50 percent or double is just ridiculous. This is exactly the reason why so many people take demos at the dealers and source it from Singapore / Dubai and absorb the risk of something going wrong with the unit. If the pricings were more sane, I am sure people will think twice before importing them. Which is what ideally everybody wants to do. Support the Indian dealer / consumer and help in the total growth of hifi industry in India.

bombaywalla schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: I recently had one socialite lady ask me if her mobile can be connected to my valve pre-amplifier….I told there will be an impedance issue. Don’t ask me what happened after that. That is the sad state of affairs. Impedance issue??? certainly when anybody wants to connect a MP3/portable player to any electronics, you cannot make the connection directly. But that is NOT what she meant! C'mon man! you know better than to interpret her question in a literal way! Yes, we should be able to connect a cellphone to a stereo shortly IF we can come up with a converter box that can take the format of the music from the cellphone & convert it to something a DAC can decode. The cellphone being a music storage gadget is very new & no one has yet converted this need into a product. I can bet that several people are working on it under wraps! It will be just like having a USB DAC (say, from Scott Nixon) to connect your computer to your stereo or having a boom-box like gadget to plug in an iPOD. Several people must have asked "can I connect my computer hard-drive to my stereo?" Did we roll our eyes & say "there is an impedance issue"? We solved the issues, didn't we? This one is next......

I wanted to say something she will never understand and move on to more interesting pastimes……..the lady sure was pretty.

Thanks SNV for showing us the other side of the coin.

My intension was not to offend anyone especialy dealers but to highlight that Hi End Audio gear is expensive here in India.

For a person in US with around $4000 per month , a $900 product is less than 1/4 of the monthly salary now when the same product carries a Rs 60K price tag in India , one need to have Rs 240K as monthly income , if we follow the same proportion of price v/s monthly income!

People with rather bigger disposable income just walk down to nearest Bose outlet and others end up in buying Chinese Big Sound HT system, at least they get a package that every member in family can enjoy , they get something to show-off, they get something to keep up with Jones (or Jains/Mehras/Sharma/ Patils/ Aroras) next door.

BTW - Bose in India has really dropped its prices.

I know you guys will kill me for saying this, but in todays context I do not know of a single speaker that will outperform the Bose 901 series [I do not know what they are at currently] @ Rs. 89,000/- for a pair with Equalizer included + Rs. 6000/- Stand + VAT etc.
No Speaker @ 110/- K will beat that product.

I suggest all persons that are looking @ mid-fi purchases to drop by a bose show room and listen tot he 901. It is a great VFM product.

I recommend it very strongly.

G_S_Madhav schrieb:

For a person in US with around $4000 per month , a $900 product is less than 1/4 of the monthly salary now when the same product carries a Rs 60K price tag in India , one need to have Rs 240K as monthly income , if we follow the same proportion of price v/s monthly income!

Dear G_S_Madhav,

I so wish this was the case in India.

Trust me, the av business would have been far bigger than what it is now and ofcourse no consumer would complain about pricing being higher.

I will not deny that there are certain brands that are still 30 to 40 and at times even 50% higher than US/UK retail prices.

I too hope that someday soon every distributor matches international prices.

Regards
SNV

I do not know much about low fi audio prices in India.

But with regards to Hi Fi Products, the prices in India are very very competative.

I can comment on 1 such - GamuT Audio.

They are my clients & their demo room is in my place.
Their retail prices in India are the same as Euro Retail Prices & there are great schemes in place. 1 piece purchase 10 % off. 2 pieces = 15 %. 3 pieces = 20 % off &
full rack purchase = 25 % off.

Although I do not love the products, they are great value buster electronics & when delivered @ retail & less they become rather attractive.

Any Comments ?

The Company is Hermit Audio [p] Limited.
The Distributor i.e. who sells GamuT in India.

They also have a dedicated listening room - Mumbai.

Nothing is in stock, but on its way - in the ship. All models in all finishes should be in stock soon.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

No Speaker @ 110/- K will beat that product. I suggest all persons that are looking @ mid-fi purchases to drop by a bose show room and listen tot he 901. It is a great VFM product. I recommend it very strongly.

Dear Bhagwan,

I seriously hope this is a teaser.

I cant believe you are saying this.

Regards
SNV

I am dead serious !
No Jokes.

I love this speaker @ 89 k [before any discount]

In the US the speaker is sold @ 1258 US $'s.
http://www.bose.com/...floorstanding_index#

It cannot be beaten @ this price.

If you know of a speaker that does, I want to come and listen to it !!

I am ver very serious.

In that case, a trip to the Bose showroom is imminent.

Regards
SNV

Arj Said something that I generally endorse and deserves to be re-ventilated :

BOLD Characters, deletions and .... are mine... to high light what I concurr with

My opinion is that unfortunately for us at some level , for objects involving ownership, "Value" is directly equated to money spent rather than its intrinsic value ....... ...........i doubt if too many will not still lust after the Sonus Fabers/Mark Levinsons and the Krells ! I am of course not even mentioning the Bose/B&O Genre here

I am sorry, but I have a very very different point of view.

Krell I do not like one bit, if some one were to offer Krell amps to me @ 70 % off on their list price I still would not buy them.

ML is dead. To me it a glorified Bryston.
However, I like Matthew James. This I would love to have.

http://matthew-james.net/

About SF, wellthat was a great company that has lost its way. The SF's of the 80 & early 90's were great speakers. Frank Sebian designed great speakers way back then. His son-in-law is not anywhere close to it.
So in todays day and age to say that you use a 'new' SF is rather insinuating - sorry !!!

P.S. I love the Krell Speakers. @ 50 % off, that I would love to own. I really like them a lot. You guys should give them a listen. Very interesting indeed.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

BTW - Bose in India has really dropped its prices. I know you guys will kill me for saying this, but in todays context I do not know of a single speaker that will outperform the Bose 901 series [I do not know what they are at currently] @ Rs. 89,000/- for a pair with Equalizer included + Rs. 6000/- Stand + VAT etc. No Speaker @ 110/- K will beat that product. I suggest all persons that are looking @ mid-fi purchases to drop by a bose show room and listen tot he 901. It is a great VFM product. I recommend it very strongly.

http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/425/

Just to clarify,
http://matthew-james.net/ is the successor of ML & Chello.

It is reference even today. I have not heard it, but some guys that I follow & trust have heard it and use it in their set up.
I would love to listen to it & then decide, but it must be serious for sure.

Bose in India has really dropped its prices.

I think BOSE sells in India at the SAME price as their US $ price.

Sales Tax is extra....

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Bose in India has really dropped its prices. I think BOSE sells in India at the SAME price as their US $ price. Sales Tax is extra....

Basically ripping off both the worlds..

I think the thread have been totally hijacked

square_wave schrieb:

I think the thread have been totally hijacked

AGREE!
Gentlemen, PLEASE revert to the topic at hand that Viren originated.

Please do not discuss the cost of stereo products in India in this particular thread - one of you can start a separate thread for that! Thank you!

Sorry;
I shall revert [at least try]

I see the problem on both sides - 3 sides actually.
C - D & D - SO
[C = Client]
[D & D = Dealer / Distributor]
[SO = Show Organiser]

'C' in india do not buy, well at least the so called 'audiophiles' do not buy. They have 'fixed' ideas and will look for 'deals' on Audiogon and the likes. Singapore / Dubai etc are other avenues that they explore.

'D & D' do not hold stock [except AVI]. Do not have Demo Rooms [except AVI]. Not adequately informed about their products or others products [most of the time]. Non existant network of dealers etc.

'SO' are running after commercial interest, they rather sell space to LG & Samsung & Phillips rather than a 'small' D & D of low-fi to mid-fi audio. They seldom have any budget & are always 'crying'

I will write about the good parts in my next posting.

Shahrukh schrieb:

http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/425/

Bose 901 loudspeaker

J. Gordon Holt, November, 1975. {It got a poor review}

Our technical analysis of the theory behind the 901 differs from Stereophile's in a number of respects. Since the final test of a speaker is in its sound with actual program material, we urge Stereophile readers to audition the Bose 901 and then judge for themselves whether Stereophile or the 15 other US and foreign reviews, which draw completely different conclusions, is correct.—Bose



Sir that was a 1975 review.
I suggest you listen to the new Series VI at some persons house being driven by some 'descent' electronics - not an AV Receiver. You will really be surprised with its performance, specially with its price in mind. Under 100 K.

I suggest just listen for your self. We have the chance, take an appointment & drop by with your own software.

Actually, the above exchange provides a good illustration of what I was trying to say.

Notice how the worth of a piece of equipment is equated with its price! How equipment is discussed without any context of a system. This is meaningless. Call that hi-fi if you will, but do not call it high-end!

High-end audio involves the putting together of a system where the components act in synergy in bringing you musical enjoyment. Only when the consumer recognises that, will he seek it. And the dealer that does put such systems together will probably find that consumer.

I put the onus on both the buyer and the seller.

Viren.

The stalwarts of this forum have already put forth most of what is to say on this topic but yet I'm compelled to put in my Rs.0.02. Coming from a retail background, I can't help but draw a parallel to consumer durables here. This, though not entirely correct, is not entirely inappropriate either.

High end audio in India is following pretty much the same pattern as other premium consumer durables sub-segments. Although as a concept is generations old, its emergence as a marketable commodity in India is fairly new. And as most of other 'hi end' products, it is still a 'neighbor's envy, owner's pride' thing with a snob value. It is still something whose possession would elevate the owner to an elite class and what takes you higher is the brand name and the price tag. That is the first and the foremost reason why people here prefer to go for well known brands with obvious lifestyle statements like Bose, B&O and Nakamichi. Remember the days when mobile phones were a new concept? People would brandish it like an extension of their carnal egos (mine is bigger than yours). They did this as it made them stand apart. What, in terms of equipment, did we have then? Ugly, heavy handsets that could have been used as weapons of mass destruction. But now we have matured to an extent that most of us seek a mobile phone according to our needs. Of course, there still are those who buy them for the ‘wow’ factor. These folks would always be there.

Secondly, the point that has already been thrashed threadbare here, the accessibility of these products. We still do not have an organized, large scale distribution channel set up. This makes procuring, storing and selling more expensive that is should be. This translates into higher price points for the products with minimal or no after sales backup. Another reason why people go for the brands as they are supposed to be 'tried and tested'. Of course one could argue that a local manufacturer would be able to provide better care to his customer but the impression is the big names are more reliable and seldom need professional help. I have personally gone through this.

Then there is the question of attitude and awareness. The initial two points directly relate to this. Since it is still an elitist's bastion, it is important to guard the territory lest the philistines take over! On more than one occasion, I have come across a senior audiophile or a knowledgeable dealer whose attitude was more condescending than encouraging. I'm still a novice in this area and not so long ago I had visited one of the local manufacturer to check out his products. My questions certainly would have been immature, inane and would have violated his advanced audiophile sensibilities. But instead of educating me and guiding me, he told me to come back when I was 30-plus and had started listening to Hindustani! Several other dealers made it a point to let me know they are doing me some kind of favor by talking to me since my budget was ultra-modest. Guidance from a more learned authority is paramount for a budding audiophile to develop his appreciation for this art and science. If the majority of the audiophile fraternity behave this way, do you think there would be more joining their ranks? Thankfully, we have, on the other hand, we have souls like Viren and Prithvi who have taken up the cause on our behalf. They were more than enthusiastic to interact with me and answer all my dumb questions. I do owe them a lot in this first stage of my audiophile journey and I haven't gone very far yet. Then there are platforms like this forum that for a vital catalyst in an audiophile’s development. Trust me when I say this – if it weren't for you people, I would still be listening to my music on a ‘1500W PMPO’ midi-system.

IMHO, these aspects - snob value, availability, price and awareness, are the prime factors why High end audio in India is in the state in which it is. And I really do not see anything wrong with it. It is merely a stage in the evolution of this field both as a hobby and as a profitable vocation. Since it is a very niche area with a low penetration potential, it is going to be a long and arduous journey. A journey that can be greatly facilitated by friendlier govt. policies, responsive sellers and active discussion forums. These can go a long way in transforming high end audio in this country and I am all for it.

Gentlemen & ladies,
Could not help but chime in here,
How many of the posters are deriving economic gains and how many are here for pure discussion purposes?
How many are dealers? and how many are pure listeners?
Some how to me it is all mixed up and hard to discern on this forum.
Please advice if I have overstepped my boundaries, and I will never contribute further, but I feel education is the best way forward both for novices & experts - but somehow in my humble opinion I feel that this truth is not being presented due to fear of stepping on someone's toes.
I have approx. 15 years of audio listening & reviewing experience - but I hesitate to recommend or present any equipment without the proper background, room treatment, associated equipment etc. I have heard $100,000 equipment that could not best $20,000 equipment in untreated rooms, but yet that fact is ignored with impunity.
Anyways that was my 0.02 cents - I will only play the role of an observer - good luck.
Thx.
Sid

Very well said soulforged. Wholeheartedly agree with you.

soulforged schrieb:

Although as a concept is generations old, its emergence as a marketable commodity in India is fairly new. And as most of other 'hi end' products, it is still a 'neighbor's envy, owner's pride' thing with a snob value. It is still something whose possession would elevate the owner to an elite class and what takes you higher is the brand name and the price tag. That is the first and the foremost reason why people here prefer to go for well known brands with obvious lifestyle statements like Bose, B&O and Nakamichi.

I would like to agree, but there is a small point I would like to make here.
Most of my friends & social aquiantances are exponentially richer than me, there is no companison between my financial status & theirs [Friends i.e.]. Yet none of them are 'audiophiles'. My point being, what even I do in Audio is done by me because I believe in the product & the sound it can produce. My Social Circle does not have any idea of the brands that I may own or listen to etc.

This example of yours holds true for B & O & Bose etc. Not for High End Audio. There is no 'pride of ownership' to the other, the other just does not know of this audio world of ours.

It is true for Vertu Mobile Phone + Cars [Mercedes + BMW] + Watches [Rolex - poor] etc. Not for Audio. Since it cannot be flaunted and or displayed.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

This example of yours holds true for B & O & Bose etc. Not for High End Audio. There is no 'pride of ownership' to the other, the other just does not know of this audio world of ours. It is true for Vertu Mobile Phone + Cars [Mercedes + BMW] + Watches [Rolex - poor] etc. Not for Audio. Since it cannot be flaunted and or displayed.

Exactly my point....there is a difference between high-priced audio and high-end audio. Bose and B&O are high-priced product bought more to elevate social status (some amount of show off that is) than extracting great quality music....on the other hand the high-end world we are talking and for which the topic was started is about real hifi which is understood and bought mainly by audiophiles and at max the budding audiophile...its not to elevate anything else apart from personal music listening experience. Heck, even our family members dont know what we are upto 8), what are we listening to and how expensive is that....forget about outsiders knowing and creating envy

In fact this is one of those rare hobbies where prices of the product are normally kept hidden/downsized so as not to annoy the close ones who would think you are wasting money (may not be the case with everyone but there are many around me and including me who face this situation). If you show off your show is down

Sidvee for whatever reason if you decide never to write on this forum the loss wiil be ours. We need more members who can contribute and your credentials are pretty impressive.
Could you pl clarify what is worrying you?
Jeeves

Hi,
This thread on High end audio is getting bigger and bigger but is going round and round

I would like to share my views on highend with you all.

1. Highend audio is a niche market.

2. Indian market is very small for any sort of mass media advertisements to expand it, this is partly true all over the world.

3. Some Dealers/manufacturers not all, like to build some sort of hype around their products so that the buyer is happy to part with his money

4. Unknowingly or knowingly we tend to equate quality to price.

5. Since the high end audio is trying to achieve a daunting task of reproducing recorded audio as realistically possible the cost of the setup may increase and due to limited production quantities cannot get the advantage of mass production techniques.

4. There are cheaper solution providers in all areas, same is the case with highend audio. One has to be lucky enough to find a highend audio solution provider who makes gear that suits your taste at a reasonable price. (I am yet to find one)

5. This highend can only be a passion not a profession for the Indian dealers/manufacturers. One has to sell/make other mass marketable products for daily bread and with the surplus income indulge in your passion, "The High End Audio"

6. If any dealer keeps stock of high end gear (need not be a known brand, but quality stuff) let it be high priced or low priced it is sure that he will find a taker for it. That is Indian market, very hungry but just don't know what to eat, reading menu card has no meaning he cannot understand, show him the food he will gobble it up in no time

Regards
Anil

ani schrieb:

Hi, 6. If any dealer keeps stock of high end gear (need not be a known brand, but quality stuff) let it be high priced or low priced it is sure that he will find a taker for it. That is Indian market, very hungry but just don't know what to eat, reading menu card has no meaning he cannot understand, show him the food he will gobble it up in no time

Perfect - Well said !!

Get the goods, stock it, show it; It will sell, what ever it is.

Abhi, Bhagwan et al...you seem to have grasped exactly what I wanted to say but took it the other way...

The audiophile community in India is still pretty small and even there a portion of it succumb to the 'ownership' factor and thus the mention of Bose, B&O etc. We have yet not matured enough to pick up exactly what we need to enhance our listening experience. Do not just limit your opinion on people on this forum who pretty much want to genuinely go for what they want (or at least try to). If you look out you'll find more of the kinds who prefer Bose with Monster cables.

Anil, you have quite nicely summed up the crux of what everyone is trying to say...Thanx

I rest my case...'nuff said

sidvee schrieb:

Gentlemen & ladies, Could not help but chime in here, How many of the posters are deriving economic gains and how many are here for pure discussion purposes? How many are dealers? and how many are pure listeners? Some how to me it is all mixed up and hard to discern on this forum. Please advice if I have overstepped my boundaries, and I will never contribute further, but I feel education is the best way forward both for novices & experts - but somehow in my humble opinion I feel that this truth is not being presented due to fear of stepping on someone's toes. I have approx. 15 years of audio listening & reviewing experience - but I hesitate to recommend or present any equipment without the proper background, room treatment, associated equipment etc. I have heard $100,000 equipment that could not best $20,000 equipment in untreated rooms, but yet that fact is ignored with impunity. Anyways that was my 0.02 cents - I will only play the role of an observer - good luck. Thx. Sid

Agree with you totally.
Extracting the full potential of ones equipment with proper setup / room treatment etc.. is one thing that is conveniently forgotten in ones journey to own the most frighteningly expensive hardware available. Whenever I hear poorly setup expensive music systems I am humbly reminded of an elderly gentleman’s well setup system in Bangalore. He owns equipment which is more than 20 years old and would cost a barely anything in the used market but the magic he extracts out of them is mind-boggling. A person’s listening environment, his music tastes, expectations (even wrong expectations) need to be taken into account when recommending any hardware.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

soulforged schrieb: Although as a concept is generations old, its emergence as a marketable commodity in India is fairly new. And as most of other 'hi end' products, it is still a 'neighbor's envy, owner's pride' thing with a snob value. It is still something whose possession would elevate the owner to an elite class and what takes you higher is the brand name and the price tag. That is the first and the foremost reason why people here prefer to go for well known brands with obvious lifestyle statements like Bose, B&O and Nakamichi. I would like to agree, but there is a small point I would like to make here. Most of my friends & social aquiantances are exponentially richer than me, there is no companison between my financial status & theirs [Friends i.e.]. Yet none of them are 'audiophiles'. My point being, what even I do in Audio is done by me because I believe in the product & the sound it can produce. My Social Circle does not have any idea of the brands that I may own or listen to etc. This example of yours holds true for B & O & Bose etc. Not for High End Audio. There is no 'pride of ownership' to the other, the other just does not know of this audio world of ours. It is true for Vertu Mobile Phone + Cars [Mercedes + BMW] + Watches [Rolex - poor] etc. Not for Audio. Since it cannot be flaunted and or displayed.

I agree completely. Only audiophiles know brands other than Bose , Jbl, B&O etc…Rest of them, rich or poor does not have a clue whatsoever. And even in hi-end circles, I have seen strong camps. Most hi-end owners do not like what another audiophile owns. One person’s musical hi-end is another’s clinical / synthetic / cooked sound and vice versa.

[quote="square_wave"][quote="bhagwan69"][quote="soulforged"]

[/quote]
Most hi-end owners do not like what another audiophile owns. [b]One person’s musical hi-end is another’s clinical [/b]/ synthetic / cooked sound and vice versa.
[/quote]

Partially true;

If anyone in India were to buy a Avalon Isis or Rockport Speaker, I would be extatic.
Many persons in Mumbai own B & W Diamond Series Speakers, but I do not like it.

The point I am trying to make is :-

All 'Audiophiles' have preferances; sure we do. Now if some one in the city / country has a particular set up, we can like it or dislike it etc.
But yes, that clinical part I can surely agree to. I am currently finding my own speakers to be very clinical & I do not love it !!!

One experience I had recently. I listened to a 27 lakh equipment playing on 7.5 lakh worth speakers recently. Don’t want to take names here. It was a hifi showroom. It sounded like typical contemporary high-end sound but synthetic and cooked. Let me quote one person on Audio Asylum here when he describes synthetic sound. It describes perfectly what I experienced.

Synthetic sound is typical contemporary high-end sound. My reaction to synthetic sound is "this is (or is not, as the case may be) the most amazing sounding stereo system". Synthetic sound excels at resolving detail like the number of cymbal shimmers, background sounds, fingers working frets and keys, breathing, recording session editing, etc. I can hear individual parts, but synthetic systems tend to fail at synthesizing and integrating the parts in to the whole. Or they simply distract from the holistic experience of reproduced music. They may or may not also be resolving and accurate - I've heard both. When I listen to synthetic systems, the experience is like viewing through a golden-tinted lens. It can be pleasurable, but over the long term not my cup of tea. Natural sound is typically unspectacular and unimpressive at first listen because nothing jumps out. No earth-shaking bass, ultra-sonic "air", or microscopic resolution. I guess they error in being subtractive rather than additive. Over time, they become extraordinary for not imparting electronic artifacts or artificial additives. To me, this is the correct approach.