Top Ten Lies in HiFi

Hi Abhi,

You seem to open a can of worms !

But hey you are right on most counts.

It would be interesting to learn what the rest of the forum says.....

Maybe we could conduct some technical expriments to prove or disprove the same.

After all there is one challenge that I have kept open was to prove that no two raw speaker drivers can have exactly the same T/S parameters ............

Regards,

Junia.

Hey Abhi,Junia,

i have read this article before but here is what i think.
most of the points raised by the editor is true. most of them are just fabrications made out to catch the so calle dgullible 'audiophile' and only caters to the audiophile simply because he is obsessed in it and will believe anything these guys advertise and what they read in the 'reviews'.
I know, i too am one of them but not in the extent that i'd go spending 20k on a power cord or a speaker cable.
The sureest and the best way to improve ur system is to make sure u have these three basic thingas in order and of the bestr quality that u can afford.
they are
1> speakers
2> Program recordings
3> Rooom acoustics.

these are the 3 main things in the signal chain and the rest follow. the cables and all form just a fraction of the SQ that u derive.
i too question the burn in period of cables and amplifiers. it is complete BS. it is all phsychological.
after the so called burn in u r foolong urself in to believeing that u can hear a difference in the amplifiers or the cables. speakers yes. neone will agree with that. but being an electronics engineer i can confidently say that the burn in of amps and cables is a fable at best.
i'll get back to the rest later.
and i totally support Junia in his challenge regarding matched driveers.
Cheers,
Ben

Hi Abhi,
After reading this,one starts believing in mid hi-fi(Decent set-up),but ultra hi-fi is a myth.
Is that true?Very very bold and eye opening article...
Thanks.

i would like to reiterate my statements reghradless of my previous(an old post regarding burn in) post which contradicts my present statement.
i'm referring to the burn in of amplifiers and cables.
one is entitled to change his or her opinion based on new facts and evidence that he/she comes across.
i have got that evidence and hence my insistence that like Ravi has said so many times before cables donot have a burn in period.
But i do however agree that u need to have a god enought quality of cables and not otally disregard them.
Regarding burn in of amplifiers, it is completely psychological and i tooo was fooled by own sub concsious into believing that there was an improvenmetn in the SQ.
wwhat happens is that u read many reviews and people tell u that u will hear an improvement in the sq after sometime but it is all BS.
u will admit to saying that there is an improvement in the souind just beacause others said so and u feel u did not hear the difference but don't want to admit it. i was a fooling myself when i penned that there was leaps of improvement in the SQ.
please note that i have stopped using the Nad 320 BEE and am using the Yamha for alll my listening nowadays.
there are a couple of reaons for me doing so which i'll explain a bit later.
But anyone who says that amplifiers need burn in is surely lying and don't get intimidated into beliveing him/her regardless of ur inexperience or the 'vast' experience of the person who advocates burn in of amplifiers and definitely cables.
Cheers,
Ben
CHeers,
BEn

i expected few more members to add their views..here's more fuel to the controversial fire...esp the last part

http://www.audioholi...kercablebreak-in.php

benks,
the topic of burn in is debatable but it is a commonly believed that transformers and capacitors take some time to work at their optimal ranges. Since amps have both it would be logical to say that amps have a burn in period.

To be quite honest I also find this 100+ hrs burn in to be quite a bit of nonsense. But I do believe a few hours of burn in (10-20hrs) is sufficient to make all components work to maximum potential. Some amps show a slight difference(tubes do) and some amps dont but that does not mean that there is nothing like a burn in phenomenon for amps. Its also whether your system, more so speakers, can resolute and reproduce the difference.

Manek.

Hey guys,
That's great feedback and even greater that guys accept that there is a lot of truth in the article.
Benks, you are quite bold to accept that you were fooled, BTW I am very curious to know why you are not using your NAD320BEE anymore ?

Hifiinvoice, I dont think Ultra Hifi is a myth but as Benks pointed out, the most important components would be anytime the Speakers, Recordings, Room Acoustics, source player, amplification rather than cables and power cord like stuffs. I mean they should be given priority but only as much as they contribute to enhance the SQ....not more than that. But I dont think it is followed in that fashion in Ultra Hifi....

Dear Abhi and all,
The article is a must read for all but like the author said are there bigger lies? Why should we belive him ?

You need a good system to hear what changes the cables and such make. Your source and speakers are very important, say as important as your amp !

Cables - electrical parameters LCR. The question is what quantity of LCR will work well with your setup? I have noticed changed in quality with different interconnects and speaker cales. It is a case of getting the right kind of sound from your system, true you can call them tone controls but they dont add much to music signals kind of subtractive type.

Tubes - He agrees that they are better for RF applications without saying what is wrong with their use in AF. Tubes do sound different and some of them may sound more natural too. How can we say for sure the live unamplified sound we hear form the band playing is not distorted ?

Vinyl - For more than 3 decades I have listened to reproduced music and Lp's were dominant during early part of it. The technology has improved so much that now we have affordable high quality turntables, cartridges and phonopreamps, this is making a big difference in your vinyl playback setup, they do sound 100 times better today than in 70's. May be this is also contributing to the renewed interst in Vinl discs.

Dont be an audiophile, just enjoy listening to music of your taste through the system that gives you the sort of sound you like.

This are my personal views

In my personal opinion, i feel the author has a point....but it is way too exagerrated and projects a very wrong picture of the hi-end audio. Some of my justifications,

1) Biwiring : Audiophiles use this is as "one" of the technique to balance the sound in thier system. Impedance, Capacitance & Inductance are three main paramters with cable. You cannot perfect all parameters; You can only balance these parameters to a desired levels ; While bi-wiring brings down the impedance of the cable, it adds to the problem of capacitance and inductance (hence the cable acting like a xover). In a given system - the magnitude of the impact due to these three parameters can vary...so utimately this is a subjective decision (this means that biwiring can definetly help in some systems)

2) Cables : Cables make a big difference to the sound; I think the author has been paying a huge premium for "branded" cable and feel's a bit let down. The above statement on bi-wiring will explain the complexity and the impacet of bad vs. good cables. While cables do make big difference...value for money is another discussion (If anything, the article encourages DIY cables...but again, who has the time for DIY!!).

3) Valves : Every audiophile knows that the second-harmonic distortion of the valves are the key to the pleasant sound. Clear proof that the author is trying to discover a knowledge which is common-sense to most audiophile's. But this is a matter of personal taste and we defintely need to respect the same..

4) Break-in : The break-in period is true...but the duration depends on the product...ofcourse not all products need 200 hours of break-in.

5) Power-Conditioner : I never knew my "Denon 3801" can produce such smooth sound until i had one in my system...thank's to Mr. Murthy who made it affordable to own one. We live in a country ... where the electric supply is highly polluted by industries and commercial centers. The article has no scientific arguments to this effect...its just a perception.

..don't take me wrong guys. This was to keep the discussion alive and to ensure budding audiophile's are not mis-guided. I'm sure there are many more audiophile's who understand these as much as i do (or more)....add in your comments.

Cheers
Siva.

well put siva...
manek.

Hi,

I would like to add that correct matching of components is critical to good sound. Pay as much attention to that as the quality of your individual components. Regarding good recording, can anyone tell me whether the average Western pop music is well recorded? Or do I have to only go for Telarc etc.

One thing I know for sure is that having speakers with a rolled-off top end (like my Pulz) helps a lot with bright recordings. They become tolerable.

My dealer supplied with Stinger OFC cables with my system. Are they audiophile cables?

Neutral wrote :

My dealer supplied with Stinger OFC cables with my system. Are they audiophile cables?

what do ya mean by Audiophile cables..I only know insanely priced ones,good ones,,,mediocre ones and bad ones.......... 3

hope this Audiophile term was not coined like the Page 3 syndrome.......All fart and no sh*t

sivat schrieb:

5) Power-Conditioner : I never knew my "Denon 3801" can produce such smooth sound until i had one in my system...thank's to Mr. Murthy who made it affordable to own one. We live in a country ... where the electric supply is highly polluted by industries and commercial centers. The article has no scientific arguments to this effect...its just a perception. Cheers Siva.

In places like europe / US the power supply is mostly good..hence th effect would be lower. IN india it DOES make a big difference.

In fact Ben and I heard it first hand at Prithvis place the last time.

The differences were very obvious as so much noise in the sound really disappeared

yeah that is true.
there was an immediate difference in the quality of the sound.

sivat schrieb:

2) Cables : Cables make a big difference to the sound; I think the author has been paying a huge premium for "branded" cable and feel's a bit let down. 4) Break-in : The break-in period is true...but the duration depends on the product...ofcourse not all products need 200 hours of break-in.

IMHO cables do make a difference but not like the kind of difference siva is referring too.
take for example the power cord. r u telling me that by installing a piece of 1 meter cable at the end of a power chain taht was 100-200 kms long(god knows what type of cables they use) i will be able to 'clean' the power being deliversd.
that is complete hogwash.
all u need is adequate sheilding which almost any half decent power cord will give.
also the law of diminishing returns come into effect. u are better off investing in the core components instead of trying to find that elusive perfeciton in ur audio system by going in for the so called audiophile cables. this is a trick played by the companies who capitalise on the self proclaimed 'audiophiles' who are forever obssessed with finding that 'holy grail'.
Get this in ur mind' no matter how much u pay for ur speakers and no matter if ur equipment is staet of the art and costs the moon u still won't be able to replicate that live feeling. that person u are listening to , the instrument that sways u are not there in ur living room.
But then again it is one's chioice to go the way he wants and choice is power.


Regarding break in....come on.. we all agreee that break in is true in the case of speakers and sub-woofers but cables and amplifiers ...ur kidding me.
that's like saying the chips that are in ur processor are not going to perform to their full potential when u turn it on the first time. i agree that amplifiers and similar stuff need some initail time to get into their act but not 20 hours.

besides u have to consider the fact that the internal wiring of the chips and microprocessors are not made from the so called 'audiophile' grade components. Perhaps Ravi can enlighten us more ont his aspect.
so stop kidding urselves and only believe in ur judgements and don't blindly go by other people's comments.
experience for urself.
Cheers,
Ben

Ben,
FYI cables and amps do improve after burn-in. If you can't make out the difference then ben you still have got a lot to learn my friend.

And again the last 1-2 meters of power cable make all the difference.

Rgds

Prithvi

amsorry but i disagree with u on that Prithvi. For me ampifiers work or tehy don't . its as simple as that.
and i don't want to get started on cables.
But, everyman to his own.
like i said. Experience urself. don't believe evrything u hear and read.
what i say may not seem so to many otehrs. most of u may say that u heard a difference. if u did then be my guest and go ahead and buy the cables.
But burn in , come on...ur seriously kidding me. 10-20 hour or burn in. it is not a mechanical component my friend.
capacitors need some time to charge but not hours(maybe an hour at most for the bggest of capacitors).
Thanks to u prithvi and thanks to many others i am learning and am learning from my own experiences too.
i am not asking anyone to believe me...i ust want to say that u need to check things out before taking the plunge.


regaridng the last 1-2 meters of cable. i repaet any half decent cabel with decent sheilding should be good enpugh. anything more is overkill for the asking price.
diminishing returns. remember that.

Cheers,
Ben

I too disagree with you ben on the amps issue, lets not get into a debate, total waste of time.

Agree that everyone must check things out before taking the plunge, but how will they know if they are right or wrong my friend. Thats were professional industry people with experience all over the world of hi-end audio come in. You think they are mad when they say that amps need burn-in!

Ask a dozen members and ask them how their amp sound when bought brand new and after 100-200 hours. why just burn-in alone what about warm-up.

Do this switch on ur amp from cold, Use a test track and then after its warmed for an hour or so play the same track, you will hear the difference, man if you cant then I will eat my own words.

Keep learning, nothing wrong except learn the right things not the wrong things. We all learn each day of our life. Have a blast, ur happy then I am.
Each to his own.
Rgds

Prithvi

i totally agree about warm up. i never said anything against that.
but burn in. i don't think so.

listen, i don't want to seem offending or anything but let me be striaght forward cause that's the kind of guy i am.
but i think that burn in is just psychological when it comes to amplifiers and cables.
u are fooling urself into believing that there is a difference causre u ultimately want to justify that huge wad of cash u jkust blew on those expensive cables. but then again, am not totally writing them off. u need to have decent cables which is where ur judgemental capabilities comein and ur common sense may abbandon u.
So prithvi, am not saying taht ur are wrong or even that i am worng. it is only what u want to believe.
Cheers,
Ben

whilst talking amps and their burn in...Paul barton of PSB scoffs at the phenomenon of speaker burn-in as well. Ther e is an aritcle/interview with paul barton on the internet to that effect....so now a speaker designer thinks that speaker burn in is all pfaf.

to each his own brother....but i do believe that the burn in phenomenon of anything over 10-20 hours is a bit of an exageration. But if people find a difference after 100 hours...so be it.. :-)

Manek.

thanks for settling that Manek.
its an endless debate cause everyone has an opinion and wants everybody else to listen to him/her. so,it is better that we don't go there.
Cheers,
Ben

Could one of you tell me why it's so difficult to get drivers with matched specifications. With so many large companies like Scanspeak, Peerless, Vifa etc why is it so tough just to do plain quality control?

hey neutral,
every driver that is sourced thru distributors and retailers are QC checked.
but that does not mean the drivers are matched.
it is nigh impossible to get matched drivers when u buy off the shelf from any given retailer or distributor without the seller exacting a premium to supply matched drivers to DIY people.
JSA, and siva can testify to that.
Cheers,
Ben

if a seller sayas that he opnly has matched drivers and saying that u can pick any driver from the shelf and they will be matched is just plain BS.
he/she is lying thru his teeth.
Cheres,
Ben

Hi Neutral,

I agree with Bens 100%. Not being matched is not poor quality control. However if you really want to get the ultimate of your speaker system then matched drivers is the preferred way to go. As all the T/S parameters are exactly alike or within very close acceptable tolerances ( acceptable..... not from the manufacture's point of view, but from a technical point of view details of which are beyond the scope of discussion on this forum, though I would be happy to discuss the same in private with you)

What normally happens is the pick of the lot is picked up by companies that have specific requirements...off course at a premium price or are companies who a particular speaker manufacturer prefers due to the off take of larger quantities. The rest is distributed to people who have diminished or diminishing purchasing power.

I seemed to have raised a considerable controversy in the thread "Hi to all I am Sandeep" in the present forum & in http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/192710.html Some speak in favour to what I have said & some oppose the idea. I guess each person is entitled to his or hers own point of view. However I stand by what I have said and am willing to prove the same with a whole battery of equipment & software which many speaker manufactures use in their Quality Control process.

I don't mean to put down any particular speaker manufacturer, but having worked in the R&D department of a reputed speaker manufacturer for a number of years, I am bound to tell the outside world what the plain cold hard facts of speaker drivers are all about.

Thanks,

Regards,

Junia.

Regarding the cables and the comments made on RLC, biwiring etc - I dont think we are rigorous enough when we brandish about terms like RLC, impedance, capacitance etc around here. The comments made neither explore the topic technically in depth in all its manifestations and consider all factors, neither do they help to debate it on practical terms. If anybody could PM to me and explain how RLC of a 12 gauge wire bought from the electrical store around the corner is sufficiently different from the RLC of VDH to affect speaker performance, I would be forever grateful to them. Or how biwiring, while trading off capacitance for impedance, is any different from doing the same tradeoff using paralell wiring?

If you claimed to have heard a difference with expensive cables and doing a cable burn-in, and there are others who have not, that is no reason to tell them they need to learn. On the contrary, we could equally say it is you who need to learn. Just because somebody can claim to hear something that others cannot, does not automatically give them the status of being correct or learned. This could possibly be no different from the scores of sadhus that claim they hear the voice of God and then preach us. I think we know better in this age. Just because they cannot be disproven, they could take this insanity to ever growing levels with impunity. This possibility is alone sufficient reason not to blindly believe what everybody says, but to verify facts. This possibility is also reason enough to preach conservatively on topics considered debatable, rather than assuming a holier than thou attitude.

As benks tried to clarify, warm-up is a completely different concept from burn-in. I have not seen any replies to that point yet, so dont confuse warm-up with burn-in anymore.

Then again, if capacitors and transformers do have a burn-in period, would they burn-in for worse or for better? If the components were correctly designed in the first place (I guess expensive capacitors,xfmrs need to be) then a change with burn-in is only going to degrade their performance. Burn-in is a very uncontrolled phenomenon and there is no reason to expect better component after burn-in. There is more likelihood of degraded performance than a better performance, if not equal probability. How come we have never heard any so called audiophiles claiming worse performance after burn-in? In fact, in electronics, "burn-in" is a term used to indicate the probability of failure of devices early in their life cycle due to defects, maybe a few hours into operation. Capacitors, semiconductors, transformers, all have this problem of more likelihood of failing a few hours into operation - exactly opposite of what is so often claimed by so called audiophiles.

Coming now to the power-cord affecting performance - either you had a beat-up headphone wire for a power cord in the first place or you have power supplied from OFC cables and gold-plated connections and teflon insulation right from the Hydel plant to your house, so that the last meter makes a difference. Neither of the above is reason enough to preach it as general medicine. Just kidding there, but then how is a super expensive power cord different from a decent one in terms of its characteristics, especially given that it sits after miles of beat up eletric supply wiring? How many hours of burn-in do you think that new transformer put up by the eletric supply company had?

I think the general trend seems to be to unwittingly believe a few self proclaimed gurus just because they tell you voodoo that you believe are incapable of experiencing yourself. I am not saying that is happening on this forum and I respect every individual for his talents and kindness in helping out others, but it is indeed happening out ther e in the audiophile world. Just that we need to be careful and self-aware not to give in without respite to all kinds of drivel that could very possibly exist out there.

The article link is a step in the right direction, and although some of the passages may sound extreme, it is required to counteract the other extremes that exist today in much more prevalence. At the end of the day we just want good sound - there are less expensive means of getting placebo effects, like placing a Ganesha idol in front of my Amp to make it perform well (talk about real Indian voodoo)!

hey Ravi,
great to have ur voice back on the forum.
Ur post seems to echo my thoughts word to word.
One more for the objectivists.
Cheers,
Ben

Amen !!!!

Hi Ravi,

Your post obviously contains a lot of common sense, but the same would be anathema to an audiophile's ears! How would he then be able to agonise over minute improvements to the system?

Also, your Ganesha idol, if heavy enough, could help you in extracting better performance from your system if you were to place it on top of your CDP and not in front of your amp....

Interesting idea, big ears !

manek.

hey Ravi,

Good one....cheers for it. .may be ganesha idol doen't work..but a OFC or gold idol or atleast a gold plated 8 gauge idol would work....

Hey Manek,
if i recall that correctly...that tweak is called mass loading(the same as sand filling cabinets).
Cheers,
Ben

yes ben...mass loading is a very common tweak which yields very interesting results to cdp's and speakers. I've read people do it for SS amps as well ! Wonder what difference it makes with SS amps but nevertheless they do...

The most common way of mass loading your cdp is to plonk an amplifier over it, or a granite slab. For speakers and speaker stands its sand. BTW there are a few who swear by a particular type of sand as well....so go figure

manek.

manek wrote :

I've read people do it for SS amps as well ! Wonder what difference it makes with SS amps but nevertheless they do...

BTW there are a few who swear by a particular type of sand as well....so go figure

this one takes the cake...should be one among top 5 lies in Hifi.I have heard that placing CD's horizontally reduces it's life and should be placed vertically....any comments...

Had heard that about the vhs cassette too...

BTW there are a few who swear by a particular type of sand as well....so go figure

Hi All,

Just discovered I have the sand what audiophiles look for in my back yard. PM me for prices...have the gold plated ref series too.Hi big ears want me to export some to Dubai..PM me for special introductory prices + VAT.

...sub_boss has the makings of a hi-fi business man

way to go man !

Sub,

Exporting sand to Dubai is somewhat akin to exporting coal to Newcastle!

Once you have built up your clientele, I shall be happy to supply you the sand from here...

sub_boss...my sand is better than yours.....it comes fresh and sun dried by mother nature....au natural from an exotic tropical island paradise. Virgin white, perfect crystal grain. Acoustic sand of the highest high purity and damping capabilities.

My Prices are inclusive of VAT and shipping ! For customised burn in with a specific baywatch celebrity of choice...charges extra !

Manek.

PS : sorry guys...just got carried away !

Hi Manek,

Does the baywatch celebrity burn in the sand in the customer's listening environment?

First rule for audiophiles, you know

If thats the case then I demand a week's home audition..I want to burn em in my listening room....

heh heh.....!

back to the topic now....the originator of this thread will get very upset at this hijacking.

manek.