Expensive HiFi a ripoff?

Interesting read - Krish;
However, I do not agree with him.


Yes, Hi Fi is 'expensive'
No 2 ways about that, but then I am ready to listen to 'low fi' [or what ever else we want to call it] that costs 1 / 10 th of the high end gear & sounds 'as good' !!
Please do show me set ups that cost 5 K Pounds that will take on things like this :-



I wonder if Mr. Ashley James has 'ever' auditioned gear of this kind ??? No disrespect intended....

Everyone has thier opinion. Period.

But the problem is that - this is a meaningless discussion that seems to crop-up every other month on this forum.

I do not intend this to me a bad remark...but it is quite frustrating to see this so very often.

sivat schrieb:

Everyone has thier opinion. Period. But the problem is that - this is a meaningless discussion that seems to crop-up every other month on this forum. I do not intend this to me a bad remark...but it is quite frustrating to see this so very often.

Agree.
High end audio is as close to a religion as a hobby can get.
If you Challenge any beliefs, character attacks will follow, because most beliefs can't be "defended" in any other way!

there definitely are overhyped overpriced equipment in Hifi as in every other area.... but again acllingall bhifi cos the same is a bit over the board.

but i do agree with his comments on Audio Journalism !

Arj schrieb:

but i do agree with his comments on Audio Journalism !

The Audio Journalism part is partially correct;
This is because, most of the 'reviewers' are not exposed to audio gear of a certain pedigree. Due to which, they do not know what to 'listen for' !
Same happens in India too, our audio magazines suffer from the same problem.
It is like me. If you show me a 5 K projector & a 25 K projector, I will surely not know what to look for and hence will not be in a position to say what is 'good' or what is 'bad' !!! It is an 'aquired taste'
I am sure 'Krish' knows where I am coming from. A person that drinks 'SM' [single malt] will know what the differance between a blend and a SM is;

Besides, to defend the A. J. [I like them too] !!
They are often forsed to write what they write - editorial pressure. Ads etc. Have you ever read a 'bad' review of a B & W or a JM Labs or a Dynaudio ?

"but i do agree with his comments on Audio Journalism !"[/quote]

For all his tirade against audio journalists, the AVI website has tons of 'positive' reviews featured in it :-)

[quote="jazzypants"]"but i do agree with his comments on Audio Journalism !"[/quote]

For all his tirade against audio journalists, the AVI website has [b]tons of 'positive' reviews [/b]featured in it :-)[/quote]

Ha Ha Ha !!
Nice one sir.....

Interesting read....

Its the first time I am reading about someone from the industry lashing out openly at the industry in general about high prices....this may not be all true but there are some rip off brands and that's a fact. Now all of us would be able to name atleast 5 of them :-) I am of the belief that snake oil, mystique and over inflated prices may take a brand up the ladder but won't keep you there for long so..... honest brands will come to the fore.

Manek

sivat schrieb:

Everyone has thier opinion. Period. But the problem is that - this is a meaningless discussion that seems to crop-up every other month on this forum. I do not intend this to me a bad remark...but it is quite frustrating to see this so very often.

Interesting read - Krish; However, I do not agree with him. Yes, Hi Fi is 'expensive' No 2 ways about that, but then I am ready to listen to 'low fi' [or what ever else we want to call it] that costs 1 / 10 th of the high end gear & sounds 'as good' !! Please do show me set ups that cost 5 K Pounds that will take on things like this :- I wonder if Mr. Ashley James has 'ever' auditioned gear of this kind ??? No disrespect intended....

You know I think it's the title of this thread that's misleading.So apologies.

Value
I think the point made here about quality of components used is a valid one.Siva, don't you take pains to point out the quality of components used.Does that not make your own products great value ? Ber in mind that AVI products are not exactly in the NAD ballpark.

Reviews
A bit minor a point compared to the one above, but I guess still valid.

Cheers,

square_wave schrieb:

sivat schrieb: Everyone has thier opinion. Period. But the problem is that - this is a meaningless discussion that seems to crop-up every other month on this forum. I do not intend this to me a bad remark...but it is quite frustrating to see this so very often. Agree. High end audio is as close to a religion as a hobby can get. If you Challenge any beliefs, character attacks will follow, because most beliefs can't be "defended" in any other way!

Hey square,
Can you pls elucidate

Judging from your reponse to the Siltech Pantheon post I thought that you would be inclined to agree with Ashley James

Krish schrieb:

square_wave schrieb: sivat schrieb: Everyone has thier opinion. Period. But the problem is that - this is a meaningless discussion that seems to crop-up every other month on this forum. I do not intend this to me a bad remark...but it is quite frustrating to see this so very often. Agree. High end audio is as close to a religion as a hobby can get. If you Challenge any beliefs, character attacks will follow, because most beliefs can't be "defended" in any other way! Hey square, Can you pls elucidate Judging from your reponse to the Siltech Pantheon post I thought that you would be inclined to agree with Ashley James :?

Hi Krish,
I am definitely in agreement with Ashley James. I do believe that most hi-end is quite a rip off.
I am also in agreement with Manek that there are quite a few honest hi-end - high price gear out there. These are the ones which will survive the test of time.

Honest hi-end sound can be achieved in all the following segments.
1. High price – big brand
2. Medium price -- Small Niche brand
3. DIY (Can’t determine the price here)
4. Low price – Any one with the right knowhow can put together this one. Will not have a glossy chassis. (As one very experienced and critical audiophile recently found out on this very forum)

Ashley James is quite respected in the audio circles. He makes quite good stuff.
But as I said, High-end audio is like a religion. Very difficult to shake off beliefs and break free.

As one very experienced and critical audiophile recently found out on this very forum

Whats that...

Just some stray thoughts.... I will take One example of Line Pre Amplifiers... Their function is to 'simply' provide a volume control, often with little signal amplification.

Now there are Physically HUGE Pre amplifiers that cost US $ 15 K or more.... and ( I thought) to increase their perceived value, come in 2 Separate boxes... One box for the Power Supply and the Micro Processors that take care of the switching, and the other that houswes the audio section.

I sniggered to myself at this extravagance.

At the Taiwan Audio show, I saw and heard the SUPERB VTL 7.5 Line stage. Its HUGE.... Each of its 2 boxes is Twice as deep as the average Integrated amplifier.

So What IS there inside ? Large Empty spaces ?

Take a Look.





The first Image is of the Power Supply and 'dirty' box.

The second .. the audio.

Any one curious of what some of the sections are ? I would be happy to point out.

A look at these innards, seems to tell me that even at US $ 15 K its not Snake oil and smoke screen ....

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Just some stray thoughts.... I will take One example of Line Pre Amplifiers... Their function is to 'simply' provide a volume control, often with little signal amplification. Now there are Physically HUGE Pre amplifiers that cost US $ 15 K or more.... and ( I thought) to increase their perceived value, come in 2 Separate boxes... One box for the Power Supply and the Micro Processors that take care of the switching, and the other that houswes the audio section. I sniggered to myself at this extravagance. At the Taiwan Audio show, I saw and heard the SUPERB VTL 7.5 Line stage. Its HUGE.... Each of its 2 boxes is Twice as deep as the average Integrated amplifier. So What IS there inside ? Large Empty spaces ? The first Image is of the Power Supply and 'dirty' box. The second .. the audio. Any one curious of what some of the sections are ? I would be happy to point out. A look at these innards, seems to tell me that even at US $ 15 K its not Snake oil and smoke screen ....

I guess VTL is one of the good guys in the High price – big brand catagory

Hi

Now when you ask the manufactueres why it costs so much ? You maybe told you are not paying just for parts.... you are paying for the unique design and the ipr that went into it.

But 15k usd for a line stage ? Difficult to swallow even if they have the whole cabinet swarming with parts.

Would appreciate a comment or two from the audio manufacturers and diyers on this forum.

Manek

Manek,

Sure.

In the first place, why would you need a preamp if all you have are line level sources? Just go straight for an integrated amp. No unnecessary equipment, or cables, or expense!

Assuming you do want a preamp, with line level sources, you need minimal gain to drive most power amps crazy. A voltage gain of 4 is probably overkill. It makes absolutely no sense to have a voltage gain of say 60, and have a lowly voltage divider turn the input signal down to get some control!

So what does that entail in a valve preamp - a single gain stage with a low-gain input triode. Would that require enough space to fill two coffers? I guess not.

Conclusion - you get what you pay for!

Regards,
Viren

Who would not like to get good [great] sound @ cheap price ?

If it happened - why would any one want to go and spend money and buy 'expensive hi end' gear ?

The intent is Hi Fadelity; so if one can get great performance at cheap price - low cost - it would be great !!!

Does a CD Player that Mr. 'AVI chief' Ashley James make even come close to a dcS in 'performance' [I am saying entry level dcS - not the Scarleti System] ????
Has 'AVI chief' Ashley James ever 'heard' a dcS Scarleti ?
If so, in his own demo room - against his CD Player ?

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Who would not like to get good [great] sound @ cheap price ? If it happened - why would any one want to go and spend money and buy 'expensive hi end' gear ?

I agree with you sir. And this is not exclusive to hifi. This is true for any product category. Be it scotch, automobiles, 5 star resorts, time pieces....you get what you pay for. Of course, there will always be good bargains (which we will continue to seek :-)...but that does not nullify the existence of hi-end expensive gear.

square_wave schrieb:

Honest hi-end sound can be achieved in all the following segments. 1. High price – big brand 2. Medium price -- Small Niche brand 4. Low price – Any one with the right knowhow can put together this one. Will not have a glossy chassis.

I have deliberately removed (3) because it is about diy and there is no end to what can be achieved through it.

Among the options 1,2 and 4....ideally the equipments falling in the category '4' should sell the most most....but it doesnt happen that way practically. At the same price NAD sells much more in number...how does that happen

Hi,

It depends on your definition of performance. If performance equates to high price, then, obviously you have won your argument.

Can you point out any CD player/DAC that does not meet specifications? If they all do, then they would qualify as high fidelity?

But they all sound different. Obviously, the traditional definition of high fidelity is not being able to explain these differences.

If its musical enjoyment you desire, there are many systems of moderate means that clearly outclass some very expensive ones. They are already available. You just have to seek them out.

Regards,
Viren

I was looking at a Bel Canto Ref 1000 ice based 500 wpc poweramp priced at US$ 4000.

6Moons has given this product glowing review and a Lunar Eclipse award.

After digging through reviews and forums, I found that this US$ 4000 amplifier is pretty much a stock B&O ICE amplifier module packaged in a Bel Canto case.

There are a couple of other manufacturers who sell the same ICE module at half the price.

You can look at the insides of a this Bel Canto amp and a less than half priced D Sonic Amp in the following thread and see if you can figure out where the additional US$ 2000 is going.

http://www.head-case...l-canto-ref1000.html

6moons review of Bel Canto Ref 1000:
http://www.google.co...8nqyfcYecWXrRgJ9ZdGA

Here is an excerpt from srajan's commentary on 6moons about ICE amps.

My sources believe that ICEpower indeed does make this promise, loud and clear. The real question seems to be whether the market will react in the good old-fashioned ways (slap on ridiculous margins, fabricate whiz-bang mystique and tons of gold-plated glitz) or whether someone will play fair with the customers.

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/icepower/icepower.html

i believe Jeff Rowland also has ICE models based amps..lets leave the price out

but again we HAVE to consider Brand. and this brand value exists in every single product and is valued deifferently by different people.

Shirts: We can have a Very Nice discussion on exactly the same lines on Apparel ie
Tailor Made: Vs Saville Row Tailer Made : Vs the Arrow Vs Lacoste etc etc. i am sure we will not end up with the same view.

In the end the Concept of "Value" is purely dependent on usage, desire and the buyers on expectation.

In Automobiles , ISUZU used to make the entire chassis + Engine for Honda which Honda used to Sell as Honda CRV and Isuzu used to sell as the Rodea. there was a whopping 10K USD difference in price for almos tthe same level of Interiors.... funnily the Honda was even considered better by many in performance Brand Logos can do funny things ! but cannot really be ignores either because it means a lot more

of course our Advtg Gurus like Shahrukh and stevieboy can talk a lot more on Brands !

Hi All,
After Long Last A discussion I can get into,
Unlike Sivat who is quite bored with this discussion and Viren who is also perhaps indulging everyone, my view is that this 'hobby' is something of a cathartic engagement rather than a strictly rational one. In this regard the view of audio as religion is right. We are in need to find objects of worship. However because we are not comfortable with going to the temple, we need to acquire new and modern idols. Like in religion the percived value of an aesthetic choice has much to do with its socially accepted price. Has not every one seen Tanjore paintings? Awful stuff. Gold plated and what not, but boy are they sought after.
In my view a rationalist and technical approach to appreciating -and enjoying audio, must be complemented by an aesthetic and psychological dimension. We enjoy upgrading -its a kick, and its not just about sound. Even Sivat will surely accpt that. Our families think we are nuts, and friends also doubt our sanity- but we remain in hot pursuit of a grail that is only visible to us.
Ofcourse the companies are cheating us in many cases. But not in all, because remember that most companies share in the faith, and began life as the dream of a believer and worshipper, not in the office of a management jhonny. Even our big and mid size companies, are or were orignally driven by the same mad passion that has all of us hooked. In this regard the AVI guy is wrong. The Serious audio industry cannot be a rip off in every second case, because its driving principle is not money but religion.

Purnendu

Purnendu, I fully agree with you. Well said.

surrealistix : regarding your refrence to the ICE Modules.... They had been VERY strong contenders on my shopping list, so had studied them for over 1 year.

The BEL Canto is a Great buy when compared to the Jeff Rowland, that uses Identical ICE modules. But have you HEARD the 2 ???

They are VERY different in sound.

The Rowland is warmer. The Bel Cantro, does every right ... technically, but (IMHO ) sounds clean but analytical. The intimancy in the music that the Rowlands deliver with the same modules is not there.

The amps will appeal to different listners.

Clearly the Power supplies, External damping ( ?? ! ?? ) and some other tweakks make a significant difference to the sound.

Reminds me of the Simon & Garfunkle song :
"Man Hears What He Wants To Hear, & Disregards The Rest "

I guess that applies to all of us... Hi Fi ers, Lo Fiers, Music Listeners...

And there are people who buy Marilyn Monroe's bra for $10,000+ !

And there are people who buy Marilyn Monroe's bra for $10,000+ !

And the buyer was probably a male .... who could not even wear it !

Hi Purnendu,

Good to hear from you again.

And very succintly put! Though, I feel the majors have truly lost their way. Either the original designers have gone - the one's with passion; or else their passion has been cooled by the number crunchers.

Sorry, they have lost their soul; and with it the ability to recreate real music!

Viren

purnendu schrieb:

Hi All, After Long Last A discussion I can get into, Unlike Sivat who is quite bored with this discussion and Viren who is also perhaps indulging everyone, my view is that this 'hobby' is something of a cathartic engagement rather than a strictly rational one. In this regard the view of audio as religion is right. We are in need to find objects of worship. However because we are not comfortable with going to the temple, we need to acquire new and modern idols. Like in religion the percived value of an aesthetic choice has much to do with its socially accepted price. Has not every one seen Tanjore paintings? Awful stuff. Gold plated and what not, but boy are they sought after. In my view a rationalist and technical approach to appreciating -and enjoying audio, must be complemented by an aesthetic and psychological dimension. We enjoy upgrading -its a kick, and its not just about sound. Even Sivat will surely accpt that. Our families think we are nuts, and friends also doubt our sanity- but we remain in hot pursuit of a grail that is only visible to us. Ofcourse the companies are cheating us in many cases. But not in all, because remember that most companies share in the faith, and began life as the dream of a believer and worshipper, not in the office of a management jhonny. Even our big and mid size companies, are or were orignally driven by the same mad passion that has all of us hooked. In this regard the AVI guy is wrong. The Serious audio industry cannot be a rip off in every second case, because its driving principle is not money but religion. Purnendu

Purnendu,

If you have'nt noticed ..

What you have discussed here is very very rational

...and i like that, even if i might not agree with you.

Siva.

Amp Nut,

I was also considering the Bel Canto ref 1000 to go with my Usher Be-718, after reading a review that they sound very good together.

I heard the Bel Canto Ref 1000 with a Lamm Preamp and Theil speakers in a showroom and it sounded good – very good.

I spent three weeks listening to the Jeff Rowland Model 302 paired with Mark Levinson No 32 and Wilson Audio Watt Puppy 8 in my brothers house last month.

The Jeff Rowland setup in my brothers listening room clearly sounded better than the Bel Canto setup in the showroom.

In general, I find it very hard to audition hifi gear in different setups and then comment on/compare specific components within the chain with any conviction.

I haven’t heard the Jeff Rowland 501 which supposedly uses the same ICE module as the Bel Canto Ref 1000. I presume you have heard the 501 – does it sound very different from the Ref 1000? Did you compare these in similar systems?

I don't know about damping, but from what I have read about the ICE module used in the Bel Canto, the AC power cable terminates straight into the ICE module. There is probably some room for tweaks in the input stage before the signal reaches the ICE module and modifications to the ICE module itself.

surrealistix schrieb:

In general, I find it very hard to audition hifi gear in different setups and then comment on/compare specific components within the chain with any conviction.

Agree with you completely

You are not alone. Associated gear, room acoustics, perceived quality etc…..are mostly ignored factors while auditioning gear. I have heard familiar gear sounding totally different in different setups.