Y is grey market so expensive ? + help in deciding speakers...

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Viwake
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#1 erstellt: 26. Sep 2005, 15:40

Hi, recently came accross this wonderful forum..

I love listening to music & have a huge collection in my computer (till now was using mercury speakers 4.1 due to budget constraints) then decided to go for logitech 5500 but my friend suggested to check a amp + speakers setup with as I had a 30k budget. I started reading the net 10 days back initially deciding to go for the yamaha 357 (15k) & a 15k surround system like cervin vega or similar. after visiting a few showrooms in Mumbai I could no satisfy with above & decided to push my budget to 50k to avoid buyer's remorse.

Now thinking about the yamaha 1500 / 2500 or Denon 2805 / 3805 (as I am now very much interest in the Zone 2 & 3 abilities of these receivers) & starting with 2 fronts - wharfedale 9.5 (but due to space constrait & wife factor may have to go for JBL E50 pair) both speaker are arround 30k.

I checked various intl websites saying the darned jbl shud cost max $300 & here it costs 30k. Also in grey the yamaha 1500 / denon 2805 cost approx 34K but as newer models were recently released for both abroad the top models 2500 / 3805 cost only $700 (Rs.30K) why is there such a hug gap as those same models cost above 45k here in grey.

Sorry for my yakety yak if too long. Any alternative place for grey's ? Also please advice speakers in the range of 30k as the wharfedales 9.5 which I loved the sound of above all others I listened to are big & rear ported - which due to space constraint I might have to raise them 2' above ground & in a corner very close to the walls. Request please advice , thanks & sorry again for writing so long.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#2 erstellt: 26. Sep 2005, 15:45

For recievers check out Marantz 5500 and above, they are much more musical than Denon and Yamaha.

Viwake
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#3 erstellt: 26. Sep 2005, 15:49

I initially was looking at the marantz's too but was adviced against it by few people as their support here is too weak & there are problems many times with marantz receivers. Infact that is the reason I am prefering a yamaha due to much better support here & less problems.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#4 erstellt: 26. Sep 2005, 15:55

hmmmm.......cant comment

abhi.pani
Inventar

#5 erstellt: 26. Sep 2005, 15:57

You can try Sonodyne 6 channel surround processor + 6 channel power amp....Seperates.

Viwake
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#6 erstellt: 26. Sep 2005, 16:08

Sonodyne is a/v receiver ? Cause I want to exploit the video part too gradually & the capabilities of yamaha / denon a/v appeal a lot & also going seperates would turn out to be more expensive. My usage is 80/20 for Music / Movies. & have a Creative Augigy 2 ZS sound card for digital output to the receiver.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#7 erstellt: 27. Sep 2005, 08:12

Hey Man,
You can check out Sonodyne's website. They have come up with the seperates, a 6 channel surround processor and a 6 channel power amplifier. Yah they are into HT now and their entry level AVR (for 17k) can shake the pants of Denon and Onkyo priced twice the amount. So imagine what their AV seperates can do ? Moreover its for home audio purpose.
So it should be in your budget, I havent enquired yet.
You should check them out before falling for the fancy looking foreign brands IMO.
Check out

www.sonodyne.com

Viwake
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#8 erstellt: 27. Sep 2005, 10:37

Thanks your advice will definately check it out if you recommend.

Can you advice how to go about with seperates (as I said I am a complete newbie), like maybe you cud advice which sono models to build the system...thanks again for your time.

[Beitrag von Viwake am 27. Sep 2005, 10:41 bearbeitet]

Edges
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#9 erstellt: 27. Sep 2005, 10:49

hey....

even i am looking for a marantz receiver.......u must have heard a lot bout marantz being faulty and stuff but its the details which will make u fall for it.......i have almost decide for the marantz 4500/5500.....but just looking for it source it from a better place.....are u in bangalore.....

edges

abhi.pani
Inventar

#10 erstellt: 27. Sep 2005, 11:09

They have just one model of surround processor (which acts like a pre-amp in a pre-power stereo setup), it processes Dolby, DTS and other formats and sends the signal to the six channel power amp which then amplifies these signals into six different channels. Ultimately the output is similar to an AVR but the quality improves a lot basically because a lot of compromises that are inherent in an integrated setup are avoided in seperates.
Thats the reason seperates are anytime SEPERATES...

Viwake
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#11 erstellt: 27. Sep 2005, 20:37

Abhi - is it possible for u to estimate approx value of that setup ?

Today I went to re-listen to the wharfedale 9.5 to finalize & while leaving made a big mistake, I tried the EVO 30 (Damn)

now my ear got spoilt by them & have a very good mind to go for them (though they are really very expensive than my original budget). Any of you guys can comment on the EVO 30's ?

I even listened to the JBL E50 again & I must say its crap for 30 k...I get the feeling they are trying to hide the actual music (or lack of it or maybe the flaws, cant point my finger to it) behind the 8" driver...

One thing I dont understand...in these last 10 days I visited umpteen number for forums & sites for learning whatever I can but this is the only forum where Yamaha receiver is the least mentioned / bought. May I know the reason why so ? Is Yamaha not as good musically compared to the Marantz's & Denon's ?

[Beitrag von Viwake am 27. Sep 2005, 21:33 bearbeitet]

abhi.pani
Inventar

#12 erstellt: 28. Sep 2005, 08:01

Viwake schrieb:

Abhi - is it possible for u to estimate approx value of that setup ?

Today I went to re-listen to the wharfedale 9.5 to finalize & while leaving made a big mistake, I tried the EVO 30 (Damn)

now my ear got spoilt by them & have a very good mind to go for them (though they are really very expensive than my original budget). Any of you guys can comment on the EVO 30's ?

One thing I dont understand...in these last 10 days I visited umpteen number for forums & sites for learning whatever I can but this is the only forum where Yamaha receiver is the least mentioned / bought. May I know the reason why so ? Is Yamaha not as good musically compared to the Marantz's & Denon's ? :L

ok...those things keep happening, as you listen to better and better products you try upgrading your budget. But you have to decide and realise the limitations. Now at the price of Evo30 you have many others to compete, did you try them ? I mean it goes on. Its always good to listen to better products, that way your ears get accustomed to good music and sonic qualities and slowly your abilities to identify music and audio products improves enormously and unknowingly (without trying hard), that has happened to me and that happens to everybody.
The point here is you can use these abilities to select a better speaker WITHIN YOUR BUDGET. You would not be ditched by fancy looking drivers and cabinets. You know instantly whether its worth it or not. So I suggest go ahead and listen to good products (costing may be twice your budget) but dont get carried away. Just listen and plan what you want and at WHAT PRICE (a price that suits your pocket).

As far as Yamaha is concerned, it does a good job in HT only, but here in this forum most of us are into both HT and Stereo and we look for VFM products which give us decent performance in both the areas so we tend to talk more of Marantz/HK etc...In fact you need to go ahead and listen to them to identify which ones is musical to your ears and which are not, there is no shortcut.

BTW I am not even favour of Denon recievers either....

abhi.pani
Inventar

#13 erstellt: 28. Sep 2005, 08:05

Viwake schrieb:

Abhi - is it possible for u to estimate approx value of that setup ?

Hey Viwake,
You are in which city btw ??
Why dont you contact Sonodyne dealers directly. You can get the phone numbers from their website.
I think the surround processor + 6 channel power amp should cost in the range of 40k. Not sure.

Viwake
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#14 erstellt: 28. Sep 2005, 09:49

Actually I did hear seperates at the polk/denon showroom here in Mumbai & will chck as you adviced but from what I felt listening to seperates (was an amp & preamp combo) I felt that though the difference was quite but if that same money was to increase in the speakers budget & a normal receiver was heard the difference to my newbie ear was more effective, IMO (ofcourse I cant claim to be good at recognizing this so soon) & maybe it was my predetermined mind which led my ears...

What you said about budget is so true but I feel all this passion hobbies you dont change speakers or upgrade them that often so if any way possible I always have this uncontrolable habit for getting more value for more money

but I tried controlling but the difference was so much between the 2 that I cant resist (like the EVo 30 exactly filled the gap in the sound which the 9.5 cud not) - also which others wud u suggest in this range ?

Thanks a lot for your help, really appreacite it.

Viwake
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#15 erstellt: 29. Sep 2005, 12:43

Another thing why I'm inclined to the EVO - though they are double the cost of the initial 9.5 I think I can survive with them without picking up a sub immediately & which I can pick up later, cus listening to the 9.5 I got the feeling that the sub was required without which it wud be incomplete music.

manishk13
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#16 erstellt: 29. Sep 2005, 13:14

Hello Viwake

You said you have a huge music collection on your home computer. Assume it is mp3, one idea may be to go for a ethernet enabled a/v receiver, then you can just stream all your music directly from PC to receiver. Don't even need to invest in a CD player in an extreme case since the mp3 files serve as a source.

I own a similar receive - onkyo tx-nr900. Ofocurse I paid a lot in february - 69,000.

BTW, I have sonodyne towers and sonodyne subwoofer and am happy at that price range. checkout

www.sonodyne.com

Manish

kspv
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#17 erstellt: 29. Sep 2005, 13:32

You said you have a huge music collection on your home computer. Assume it is mp3, one idea may be to go for a ethernet enabled a/v receiver, then you can just stream all your music directly from PC to receiver. Don't even need to invest in a CD player in an extreme case since the mp3 files serve as a source.

I have a doubt.

MP3s (the two channel ones} invariably chop-off the lower and higher frequencies of sound to economise on the file-size. So what's the point on spending so much on a high end receiver, and speakers? When I play my Worldspace receiver (compression format is MP3) through Studio-1/Terra-150 combination, I am not able to hear a single low frequency sound through Terra-150.

Can anybody throw some light?

benkenobi
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#18 erstellt: 29. Sep 2005, 13:40

Nokspv...try to get some good quality MP3s..
try ripping them at a minimum of 256 kbps with CDEX software and believe me it is 99.99% the same....at least on my system i don't hear the differences...in any case..they are not as pronounced as you think. My entire collection is based on MP3.

manishk13
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#19 erstellt: 29. Sep 2005, 13:42

KSPV

I am not an expert on audio equipment but have been listening to music (specially rock/metal and indian classical) for over 15 years now. If you leave a hard-nosed purists approach, to my ears and my set-up (Onkyo tx nr-900 + sonodyne towers), I don't feel that lows and highs are missing, specially the ones encoded at 192 kbps. I have done this experiment - I play a CD on same set up and then play the same track (in mp3) and 9/10 times, I did not feel a significant difference. I think it may also depend on the encoding

On your other point, it all depends on what one is looking for. Streaming was important for me (since I had wired my house for ethernet), so by paying a little extra I was getting that capability in my onkyo, so why not. Bear in mind, it does all the other things that are expected of a high end receiver

BTW, I did not know that wordspace is broadcast in compressed mp3 format - is that true? or are you converting the satellite signa to mp3 and then feeding into your receiver? i am confused , please shed some light.

manish

kspv
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#20 erstellt: 29. Sep 2005, 14:09

Dear Manish,

Cool !

Forget about hard-nosed purist approach. I do not have one. It is very fine to go with your choices, especially since you have already spent so much in wiring your house for ethernet. I am no expert on audio-equipment either. I was just trying to corelate my experience with Worldspace signal (which I find highly voiced to compensate for the loss in terms of frequency spectrum) with MP3 based music in general. I do not have exposure to the high-bit rate MP3s (most are encoded at 128 kbps, isn't it?). May be in their case, the quality is nearly same. But that way, wouldn't one loose the advantage conferred in terms of file-size (higher bit rate = bigger file size)? I presume when you say streaming, you are referring to streaming through internet only (or is there any other kind of streaming?)

The experiment you have done with high bit rate MP3s versus audio-CDs was done elsewhere (A-B blind testing). It was found that only under certain circumstances even a golden-eared audiophile would be able to make out the difference (beyond the statistical probability offerred by chance) between the two formats. So it's fine if you want to go with the high bit-rate MP3s!

Yes, Worldspace is digital, and MP-compressed to accommodate maximum number of stations. The bit-rate used by different stations varies, and so does the sound quality. While Worldspace broadcast is free from static due to its digital nature, quality can not be automatically inferred for all the stations.

[Beitrag von kspv am 29. Sep 2005, 14:12 bearbeitet]

Arj
Inventar

#21 erstellt: 29. Sep 2005, 15:30

AMP:Get a pair of Sonic Impact T amp from Parts Express (www.partsexpress.com)or

www.thinkgeek.com .. you would not be paying too much Duty.(If your speaker cannot be Bi ampd, u need to buy only one but since the shipping cost is substantial, what the hell get 2

)

Buy a regulated power supply for around 13 V and around 5 A rating. use that to feed both the amps .

Speaker. Any good speaker. ideally of at least 87db and 4 ohms or 90 db 8 ohms will go with this..

That should get you very good sound for a very low price :). with the power supply it is very clean..a bit thin sounding compared to a NAD320BEE but with a cleaner treble and tighter bass..and it has almost NO background noise which is the best part.

Viwake
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#22 erstellt: 29. Sep 2005, 15:57

manishk13 schrieb:

www.sonodyne.com

Manish

Hi Manish - Ya I think about that too & since a lot of my music is in uncompressed wav / flac / vbr / DTS format might be a good idea too but the price is too high (was it grey).

I think there is a marantz receiver also with ethernet (or I think usb) connection. I gues I have to rethinnk a bout the receiver now. since everybody here feels the yamaha / denon are not so competitive for music.

Anybody here have klipsch speakers & any comment on them ?

@Arj - I dont really know how to go about ordering from abroad & the duty & custom mess...

abhi.pani
Inventar

#23 erstellt: 30. Sep 2005, 06:25

benkenobi schrieb:

Hey Benks and others around,
In the last 1-2 months I have been experimenting with this mp3 stuff. I use MusicMatch Jukebox software(I have tried others but this one seems better) to rip my CDs. I have tried upto 320 kbps of ripping but still I find a good amount of difference in lows and some highs as well. Initially I thought it can be my illusion but then I used the equalizer view (which shows peaks of all the octaves from 60hz to 16khz throughout the song) and even this guy showed me the difference. While playing mp3 there was hardly anything exsisting in that 60-70hz range and beyond 12-13khz but as soon as I put the original CD, the peaks are well demonstrated in 60hz range and beyond 15khz also. Infact I think it is the limitation of my equalizer software that doesnt show me the peaks below 60hz otherwise the CD track must be easily going below 60hz also.

Benks, I would definitely want to try out your CDEX software,do you have a link to download the same ?

As far as imaging and Soundstaging is concerned, I cant say much as my system is not that transparent.

benkenobi
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#24 erstellt: 30. Sep 2005, 06:33

Hey Abhi,
Actually this software was recommenmded by Junia sometime ago.
Anyway..here it is..

http://cdexos.sourceforge.net/

verynewone
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#25 erstellt: 30. Sep 2005, 11:47

mp3s do have data loss depending on the encoder/encoding used. I encode my music at 320 kbps, which results in double the size of a normal mp3 encoded at 128 kbps. Though the audio quality is comparable to audio cd, it is not the same. In fact, I am planning to re-encode all my music using a lossless encoder from the original source.

Googled on "mp3 audio cd comparison" and got this:

http://mp3.radified.com/. It talks about lossy encoding and lossless encoding and the available encoders.

Another idea would be to buy a normal reasonably priced avr, an iPod and the iTrip FM transmitter :D.

benkenobi
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#26 erstellt: 30. Sep 2005, 12:58

Hey guys,
thanks for that verynewone..
actually, when u download CDEX configure it to use the LAME MP3 encloder...simple as that..that's what i have done on my comp.

Arj
Inventar

#27 erstellt: 30. Sep 2005, 18:39

verynewone schrieb:

Another idea would be to buy a normal reasonably priced avr, an iPod and the iTrip FM transmitter :D.

Or download iTunes for Free from the apple site.

it does a very good lossless as well. i have close to 20 GB of lossless music on my ipod and i use it as by source these days via a dock line out. and it is very good !