How To Bring More People Into This Fold?

Dear KSPV,

If a group in Bangalore & Bombay are willing to initiate & run an operation in various fields as you suggested I can arrange for funding.

If a sound workable proposal is put forward we can definitely make what your suggested happen !

Regards,

Junia.

kspv schrieb:

I first heard the stereo sound when I was in class-IV on my neighbour's Hitachi boombox. I was awestruck by the sound! In those days, middle-class people seriously into audio used to travel to Chennai (from my hometown in Andhra) to get these, and in any case I had neither the money nor the knowledge to imagine anything beyond a boombox, which I thought was the "be all, and end all" in sound. Subsequently, I had the opportunity to hear separates from Technics and Sonodyne, and realized that these were something "above" the boomboxes. Sometimes I used to bunk school and bicycle to my wealthier friends' houses to listen to them, to be thrashed later at home by my father.

Helll yeah! I know what you mean..me coming from a middle class family in Bangalore, the highpoint in my audio journey was when i bought an aiwa 3 CD changer when i passed out of 9th standard from my savings. Presentlly , its is undergoing disection in my room felt bored you see.. then came the shock of my life when i found out that my dad had given away the 10 year old Sony deck which was to me like the first real piece of audio equipment which they had got down from Singapore...none of the tapes i have seen after that can measure up to it..he ahd given it away for a 'subwoofer'for the new TV(Akai), which he pointed out by gesticulating in the TV's direction. along with it came the biggest sham played on the Indian public since then(now it is Phillips who are doing it) a home theater system(Akai again) for 10k with a VCD player...wow! my dad was thrilled.. i gave him an earful for not consulting me and kept telling him that he erred..also remember that whenever i would go to a new place..even an innoucuous looking system was enough to spur the audio enthusiast in me. have heard BPL, technics and akai seperates in my time when i was a teenager. only difference in my experience was that my dad used to join in the enthusiasm and used to ask me what i though of it rather than castigate me..

kspv schrieb:

I believe that the advent of AV-Max, despite the sarcasm it invites for its reivews, has done service to audio enthusiasts in India. For fifty Rupees, if nothing else, it atleast gave plenty of quality colour pictures of high-end audio systems, spreading the concept.

..i made the TV purcahse after referring to the review in AV Max. otherwise woud'nt have been aware of the fact that a progressive scaning TV could be got for 31k. Howeer, i did my follow up review before purchase and found their judgement to be accurate. Agree that the picturers did help to feed the enhusiast me in opart at least.

kspv schrieb:

Then there is this other end of the spectrum, i.e., people who are blessed "ab initio" with the sophistication, exposure, knowledge, money, and the locational advantage to go into the best of the audiophile brands from abroad. Some of them in course of time have made a career out of audio. The result is that whenever an aspiring audiophile approaches a higher-end audio dealer (imagine somebody who looks like Raghubir Jadav approaching Prithvi :D), he gets a lot of condescending attitude. Lot of imported brand-names are thrown at him, without asking him for his budget, and it is told, "if it is not these brands, you are damned." A genuine aspiring audiophile is many a time made to runaway, and settle for an Aiwa or Sony combo for life!

All i can say is, i can relate to this and agree with you whole heartedly. However, there are always exceptions to the rule and i don't need to point out who those persons are on the forum.

kspv schrieb:

My question is, whether this is justified? Can we do something to promote this hobby and get more people into this fold? How about preparing something like "Good Sound For Cheap FAQ" in the Indian context, and putting it on the web to encourage startups? How about a dedicated Indian audiophile website (a.k.a Andrew's Hifi, Rod Elliot's Wethost pages) with basic information? How about organizing introductory audiophile workshops (I understand Prithvi & Siva got together once to organize a workshop in Bangalore)? Can we start audiophile clubs?

It can be done , as long as there are no strings attached. Even the atmosphere of the meeting should be in formal and should not be a brand promotion exercise like other people do. No idea should be forced on them and it can be done in Bangalore where there is no dearth of people who would want to learn more, am one of them.
I am all for it...

Ocasionally , we have been meeting in groups of 3/4 to audition some speakers and visit each other's place and think about the kind of tweaks and comparing audio equipment. Yesterday, Abhi.pani had dropped in..so did Edges...but it would great if more people participated in an convention kind of thing.as long as there are enough members to form a quorum.


Cheers,
Sachi

hey kspv,
great thought- theres so much that i can personally relate to,
and awesome idea of a club- atleast a gathering-
with viren being in delhi , i am sure there loads of learning that can happen (presuming he agrees) for us-novices ;
there are a few people from delhi who can all meet and make a start-
regs
anirvan

You said it...
Is good music (listening) directly proportional to the content of one's wallet? As a newbie (recently upgraded!) I have a sense of deep alienation (and inadequacy) whenever I follow the discussions in the forum. Most of the suggestions are for components that are quite cost intensive. To begin with can we start with a proposal and guidelines for putting together a decent (whatever it may mean!) hifi system for say between 40 and 50K? Even that is a formidable amount (except for those who enjoy the manna from the IT boom!)

Sammygeorge suggested a budget of 50K, which should be fairly O.K. Assuming that 50 K is the budget, 25 K should go to the speakers, right? 20K should go to the amplifier/receiver. 5K can go to the stands, cables, and interconnects, and if it can be accommodated, a small floor-carpet between the speakers and the listening point.

While suggesting the brands & models, white-market prices may not be insisted upon.

Let us come up with a list of ten (10) amplifiers that are available within 20 K. Emphasis may please be on lack of colouration, good power reserves, and low distortion. By the way, can we initially restrict the list to stereo alone?

Then we can similarly prepare a list of ten (10) speaker models for stereo listening.

To start with, cables & interconnects perhaps really do not need to be branded ones, and these can be got made with the materials locally available. 28"-32" tall stands can be obtained from www.uskgroup.com for a decent price, or can be got made from the local carpenter. A small carpet of 3' X 5' would cost RS.1,100/- or less, and is available at most locations.

More experienced Indian members of the forum may please suggest the models. It is O.K. even if they are commercial members, and are suggesting their own products. They should fit in the budget mentioned above. We can name this list as, "Indian FAQ on Good Sound For Cheap"

Regarding the website, it should contain atleast five sections on basic principles of audio, speaker selection & placement, amplifier types & selection, cables & interconnects, and room-acoustics. Using a WYSIWYG editor like Webdwarf or NVu, I can design a very basic website, but then there are plenty of freelancers in Bangalore who can do it much better. If possible, let us add a section on reference CDs/records, including the Indian ones (Lagaan's sound track has been reckoned as a reference for low frequency recording). We can also have a page with links to a wealth of other interesting sites on audio.

Then the big question: Who will host our website? Any suggestions?

Dear KSVP,

If someone is willing to run the site in an unbias manner I can get a sponsor to host the site.

Let me know your thoughts...in fact my web designer sits in Bangalore itself.

Regards,

Junia.

KVSP,I am all for it ...love your way of thinking...
Let me know if i can contribute in any way.

Dear All,

I think a site where people can come in for free & frank unbias advice & get audiophile equipment of all makes in an international market realistic price would be the order of the day.

What about a service for which second hand equipment be certified as acceptable grade wise for a small fee ?

I am sure if we all put our heads together we could come up with a dedicated site to cater to the requirements of aspiring & seasoned audiophiles !

It would be really interesting to see how this idea matures !

Regards,

Junia.

Dear Junia,

You have a large-heart. Thank you for the generous offer. Lot of "PM"ing is going on right now on this issue (you will sure be receiving some of them), and we are in the process of contacting various forum members. Like you said, let us see how this idea matures!

Yeah dudes. This sounds awesome. Am all for it. Tell me how I could help!

Dear KSPV,

Please it is your idea ! I & the rest of us were just reconfirming the idea ! Isn't it nice to see how people are responding ? That substantiates your views that there is indeed a dearth for good quality products at affordable prices for average Indians like us !

I have been requesting people who have contacted me to contact you and two others who would be getting in touch (if they haven't got in touch with you) directly as to the creation of this site.

My only request is to please run it independently, my hands are full right now , though I am committed to funding this operation in total.

Thanks,

Regards,

Junia.

dear KSP.....

man it sounds really good ......its high time someone came out with such an idea like urs
......i was thinking of almost a similar idea like urs....but gave up finally......people are minting money and taking a customer on a ride with the pricing here as the this kind of market is jus t maturing slowly at a snails pace.......

cheers to ur work

Please let me know if i could be of any help in sarting such a revolution

Kalpesh(Edges)

Good intentions! But will this work ? Will an aspiring audiophile with a limited or unlimited budget ever hear of this website ? Will he acknowledge the merit of advice given on this site ? How in the eyes of a beginner will this website be different from hundreds of other websites all over the world loaded with similar advice ? Will he think whatever on this website is GOD-Speak ?
I have seen thriving audiophile clubs but these are populated by “audiophiles”. Even these audiophiles are divided among them selves about their definition of “good-sound”.
About bringing more people into the fold and promoting this hobby - How in the world will you convert a non-audiophile to an audiophile? I have at least a dozen music lover friends in Bangalore but try as I may I can never convert them to one. But they still love music on their i-pods/boom boxes/creative-plastic cans etc… And some of them used to play drums, piano etc… Tell them about a pair of good speakers and they will laugh at you. Most can’t even make out the difference between a 128 kpbs mp3 and the real one………Depth, soundstage, imaging, tonal accuracy etc.. are words spoken only by aliens and if you utter something like “dark spaces” in between artists – they will probably drive you to the nearest lunatic asylum.
Music lovers with a good ears and who yearn for natural sound are born like that..
Perhaps the site can help a beginner to understand the basics but then he needs to hear about this website first and visit/read. Some internet gurus can step in here and they will tell you how difficult a task this is. Once the guy knows the basics, how will you recommend components ? Something like a stereophile class A listed components ? Who will draw this list ? How do you arrive at a consensus on what is good ? How do you eliminate commercial interests here ? Remember that sound is very subjective it is almost impossible to arrive at a consensus on what sounds good…………….any thoughts ?

square_wave schrieb:

Good intentions! But will this work ? Will an aspiring audiophile with a limited or unlimited budget ever hear of this website ? Will he acknowledge the merit of advice given on this site ? How in the eyes of a beginner will this website be different from hundreds of other websites all over the world loaded with similar advice ? Will he think whatever on this website is GOD-Speak ? I have seen thriving audiophile clubs but these are populated by “audiophiles”. Even these audiophiles are divided among them selves about their definition of “good-sound”. About bringing more people into the fold and promoting this hobby - How in the world will you convert a non-audiophile to an audiophile? I have at least a dozen music lover friends in Bangalore but try as I may I can never convert them to one. But they still love music on their i-pods/boom boxes/creative-plastic cans etc… And some of them used to play drums, piano etc… Tell them about a pair of good speakers and they will laugh at you. Most can’t even make out the difference between a 128 kpbs mp3 and the real one………Depth, soundstage, imaging, tonal accuracy etc.. are words spoken only by aliens and if you utter something like “dark spaces” in between artists – they will probably drive you to the nearest lunatic asylum. Music lovers with a good ears and who yearn for natural sound are born like that.. Perhaps the site can help a beginner to understand the basics but then he needs to hear about this website first and visit/read. Some internet gurus can step in here and they will tell you how difficult a task this is. Once the guy knows the basics, how will you recommend components ? Something like a stereophile class A listed components ? Who will draw this list ? How do you arrive at a consensus on what is good ? How do you eliminate commercial interests here ? Remember that sound is very subjective it is almost impossible to arrive at a consensus on what sounds good…………….any thoughts ?

ahhh!..the first assumption you make is flawed..
I do not want this site to declare thast what we write on the fiorum to be postulates...
regarding making the site known..it will get known just like any other forum..even this forumm for instacne was accidental for me. You tell your freinds, i tell mine...word of mouth.
It is not like we are ooking for commercial gain..just to bring as many as possible into this fold through transparent without any tyranny and subversive tactics. by that i mean absolutely no commercialization unless the moderators decide to put up banners for commercial players to keep the site afloat.
The reviews would be done witha reference system as the benchmark, which will be decided in due time.

the reson people don't indulge in good or decent systems is because of the day light robbery being carried out by the coommercial operators who inflate the prices all to just make a quick buck. an uninitiated person would definitely feel isolated and overawed and tends to eschew from it completely.

There are roadblocks sure, no dobt about that..but no harm in trying to help poelpe to negotiatie those roadblocks is there.


Benkenobi

Agree with square, but still it is worth a try...The main concern is most of the people haven't heard anything beyond Sony, Philips...and quite aware people has also heard about Bose & Onkyo...Most of the people who likes music and listens to music in form of Mp3 at office PC or FM. When it is time to decide for a music system at home people decides for a budget of 5k-25k and brings an Sony/Philips/Samsung at home...Not to say they make bad products since the people who buys thing without giving other products a chance, will be happy with their purchase. As square said most people care a sh*t whether the music is playing in Mono radio/tape or an expensive system with pre/power amp & full range speakers...

Already many people who has stumbled across this website (hifi-forum.net) have become smarter when it comes to hifi & audio stuffs, so another site might mature some more. By maturing, I mean people will consider a few options before buying the system. I am sure in more than 90% of the cases people just walk in to their preffered brand's (Sony/Samsung/Philips) showroom and within 30 minutes they complete their purchase and be happy for few years.

Now the questions is...what should be the static content of the site...Will it mention make & model number all the speakers/receiver/amp/source worth trying out at a given budget...say for sources under 15k, receivers under 30k...like that...and some HTS combo at different slabs of budget. What should be the dynamic content...I mean, will there be a forum like this, any chat rooms? mail consultations? Who will be the consultants? Will they have time to support this venture? Even if we launch such a site successfully what is the guarantee we can give that it won't turn commercial in matter of few months...We need to answer 100's of questions like this before proceeding. So I would suggest to form a panel consisting of few people who will consolidate the plan with help of others.

A consolidated plan is required before you guys call the web designer. We will also have to ensure if we cannot advertise the site in some other sites at least google searches gives some results for the site.

Look guys, the way I see it, if this site is aiming at converting a guy who thinks his 30K Sony compo is a "hi-end" system to an audiophile, methinks it's in vain.

However, there are a lot of people out there who have heard of Denon, Onkyo, B&W and the like. They like their music but overlook these brands as 'expensive' and stick to the the Sonys/Aiwas of the world. This is our TA. This is the group we need to educate, offer advice, suggestions and tips on hifi. This is the sect that will listen when we talk about soundstage, imaging, timing, the frequency range, hi-res, et al. We need to talk pure "Budget Equipment". We need to introduce him to the Wharfedales of the world. The Sonodynes, Pulz, the Pandams... well you get the drift. The aim of the site should be to tell him that he can get his "dream system" for a similar price. A system that will take the pants off any compo-hifi system out there in the market. In short, he has to learn what High Fidelity is.

All this of course, sans the snobbery that is so commonly associated amongst hifi enthusiasts.

Once he's into the fold, nature will take its course. He'll become one of us. He'll spend all his leisurely hours on all things hifi. His wife will curse us. And lo and behold...our tribe will increase!!

I agree about the intentions. I was just curious about how you will go about convincing a beginner about good systems and good sound through the internet……… Anyway it is good idea….
As I see it, people who visit hifi forum and sites like audio asylum become smarter because they read consumer/professional reviews and get to interact with people who know they are talking about. I have had the opportunity to run into guys like ‘Richard bass nut greene” on audio asylum who is a reservoir of knowledge on subs…………so it is a gradual exposure to experienced people on the web and real “brick and mortar audiophiles” and real experiences/exposure which validates this knowledge which can change and educate people. I seriously doubt a website with “ rules etched in stone” and recommended components list will help…………people will always read it with a grain of salt… At most, it can serve as a guide…….something like a dummy’s guide to good audio….I dunno…………..something to think about !

square_wave schrieb:

Good intentions! But will this work ? Will an aspiring audiophile with a limited or unlimited budget ever hear of this website ?

cant somehow a small ad or article about the site be put in av max etc,
I feel people who are even slightly inclined towards a better product do pick up a copy of av max or another "man" magazine, india today , oulook etc

benkenobi schrieb:

regarding making the site known..it will get known just like any other forum..even this forumm for instacne was accidental for me. You tell your freinds, i tell mine...word of mouth.

i guess if a person comes to the site then he can be directed to this forum for all the questions,

Shahrukh schrieb:

We need to talk pure "Budget Equipment". We need to introduce him to the Wharfedales of the world. The Sonodynes, Pulz, the Pandams... well you get the drift.

right said boss- this is absolute essential, if again a person gets awed by the prices of hi-fi, he ll run off and probably buy a bose; or something worse

r
anirvan

anirvan schrieb:

benkenobi schrieb: regarding making the site known..it will get known just like any other forum..even this forumm for instacne was accidental for me. You tell your freinds, i tell mine...word of mouth. i guess if a person comes to the site then he can be directed to this forum for all the questions, anirvan

No..actually we are thinking of formulating a new forum on the new site where things can be discussed.

I agree with Square

About getting more people into the fold – let’s look at the real reason why a certain percentage of music lovers become audiophiles………
1. Exposure to high quality un-amplified live performances or live performances using high quality amplification and wanting to recreate something similar in his/her home. But remember that a good percentage of people who have exposure to good live sound have no interest in recreating it in his/her home.
2. Some music lovers are born audiophiles. Even if they haven’t been to a single live event, they will get all “turned on” when they get exposed to good sound. Now this category does not need any force to join the fold. They are already there. All they need is some help and guidance to buy and install right equipment.

So it is the first category that is the most lost and need help most but sadly they are the types who are sorely missing in India due to the lack of high quality live performances. The best way to get more people into the fold is to promote the culture of having/attending live performances………..that is the key to get more people involved with good audio gear. Promote music first…….it would be a nice idea if somebody could come up with a website which promotes live performances of local as well as foreign talent. I am not talking about large scale stuff with mainstream artists but medium size gatherings with good quality performances of rock-jazz-classical-good pop etc….They could even promote live performances in pubs, restaurants, organize small events for private gatherings etc…I know this is a small beginning but it could go a long way in Bangalore if done the right way. It could even generate some jobs too. This website could feature discussions on audio and audio gear as well with reviews thrown in………..I guess we will attract more people this way……Just my two cents………..

Very good ideas Square. It will certainly attrct a larger audience and they will be interested in the content.

Very good points square....i think we can incorporate this in the website..we can defintely give this a serious thought.

This is a link to a site out of Goa. Its for jazz only but its a start if you guys want to take square's idea forward.

http://www.jazzgoa.com/181.htm

Folks,

Just want to clarify how a new website will differ from this forum. The audiophile community is small. Fragmenting it won't help. Unless the new site only contains tutorials and avoids posting.

well this forum itself would be a good pace to start.. just a little more than a Year only Manek and I were regulers here.(BTW where is Cheraz ? )
.it has really grown into a vibrant community now which even meets often. to me that is really great progress.

How about some sticky posts with the above information ? any volunteers ? Manek should hopefully be able to make a thread a sticky.

In case a website does come up, the information just needs to be transferred there. njust my 2 cents

No fragementing is going to happen in this case..
u see, we are using what is essetially a German website. what we want to do is open up a website where we can control things and give a wider range of information and topics to discuss about with a more effective moderation in place(no offence or reference to Manek here). Moderation would be somewhat based on how it goes on in diyaudio.com
it is by pure serendipity that i came across this forum and i am grateful for i got to meeta host of great people and build freindships.
We would like to make this website more India specific, catering to the needs and try to address the issues a bloke would encounter when he walks into a shop to buy audio equipment. For those who are technicaly inclined we would have a section where technical stuff would be discussed. a fairly easy to understand appendix of the basics of audio, speaker design, amplifiers, and et al would be provided.
as Arj says and as we see other forums where permanent posts or 'sticky' as they are called could be devised for those posts that are contain cognizance.

Keep those tips and suggestions coming..
Cheers,
Benkenobi

Dear Benks,

You are correct, let us just start a site and build from thereon being sensitive to what the needs of the hour really is.

Well the present site is a great site to hang out at, the proposed site may be tailored to more specific needs....whatever they might be & whatever the moderators may decide.

I am excited at the potential !

Regards,

Junia.

benkenobi schrieb:

it is by pure serendipity that i came across this posts that are contain cognizance.

this is definitely OT, but your words got me curious, when are u taking your GRE ?

Arj schrieb:

benkenobi schrieb: it is by pure serendipity that i came across this posts that are contain cognizance. this is definitely OT, but your words got me curious, when are u taking your GRE ?

LOL

Arj schrieb:

benkenobi schrieb: it is by pure serendipity that i came across this posts that are contain cognizance. this is definitely OT, but your words got me curious, when are u taking your GRE ?

heheh well my GRe is on the 18th of OCt..but rest assured..i had come across these words prior to my preparations for GRE..

I am new to this forum , but my own experience suggests that funds and attention should first and foremost be devoted to the source .This will ensure good quality music right from the start and prevent falling off of interest, and a good quality source will last through many upgrades.
Power amplifiers are cheap, particularly if they are chip-based, such as the DIY Gainclone.
Even the ancient Philips transistor amp circuits are pretty good and very cheap.
A 10k log potentiometer can serve as a volume control if funds do not permit a preamp.If the CD player has a variable output level, even this will not be required.
To begin with, even a pair of full range speakers will , in most cases, be enough to involve one in the music without breaking the bank.I have built a pair of folded Voight pipes with Philips full range drivers ,and while they cannot compare with my ribbon speakers, they are not fatiguing.The sound can be upgraded with better drivers if necessary,or commercial speakers according to taste and purse may be substituted.
This of course, is for those on a limited budget and with limited choices , as I was , when I first got overcome by the desire for quality music reproduction more than 40 years ago.

Hey all. Just had a thought. Can we do something at the coming Times AV Revolution?

When is it scheduled for ? Some time in November right ?

Gem schrieb:

I am new to this forum , but my own experience suggests that funds and attention should first and foremost be devoted to the source .

Very true.. But practically the component which could change a lot now is really the source.. With CDs, LPs, SACDs, DVDAs, Blue Ray etc.

At the time when Linn proposed and sold this concept it was primarily with the LP and the CD.

SACDs and DVD-A s were very hot 1 year back but now they seem to be declining. There seems to be a big War on between Blue Ray and HDCD. also MP3 seems to be the most popular thing among the people who actually make the Music Indistry viable ie the Non Audiophiles !.
In fact the Whole Multichannel thing which was such a big hype is also seemingly petering out

So how much would you want to spend on a source ?. especially since CD patent rights are over now hence most Music cos are hedging their risks with any one or a mix of the above formats.

IMHO there does not seem to be that big a difference between the $500 CDP and the $2000 cdp as it used to be AND the difference between the same price ranges in a Speaker is Immense.

the good way forward could be to buy the Best Speaker you can afford. Buy a good amp that can Drive it (maybe 40-50 % of the speaker budget) and get a decent CDP like entry level usual suspects !

Second that

K

As the apparent death and present revival of vinyl and valve equipment has shown, older technology often tends to be mature technology in which many of the bugs have been taken care of.
Ultimately, you listen via your speakers, but if the source is not good, they won't sound good.Conversely, if the source is good, even cheaper speakers will give of their best.
Also, as the failure of Betamax against VHS has shown, it is necessary to have adequate source material to support the hardware.
Right now, Red Book Cd's have flooded the market ,and with the format wars being unresolved, it may be many years before adequate supplies of music in any of the new formats become available.
Should you defer the full enjoyment of your entire system waiting for the new formats to stabilise?

Gem, this is an oft repeated topic..but I do not disgree with the source first concept.

Only that this means different things to a Newbie who is just on his beginner system and with a person who has been into it for long and already has a system..

But I maintain that differences between speakers in a range and between digital sources in the same cost range are very different.

Since you mention LPs , Yes Source difference are much more important in turntables (Which is why Linn actually publicised the phrase).
Eg if you have a $500 CDP and a $500 speaker, you get a bigger difference if u subtitute the above with a $1500 speaker than you would with a $1500 CDP..in fact in the latter you may (I mean May and not Will ) not even notice this difference.

But the moment you move the stakes into a $5000 CDP and a $5000 speaker you will get a different set of results and which is very well driven by the Synergies of the components. (Some may get a difference with the source and some with the speaker)

It has a lot to do with the advancement of Digital equipment, which again does not mean anything negative about old technologies like Valves..

Arj,
Listening is subjective to a great extent,but my assessment was based on the following
Preamp and Amp-constant(Audible Illusions and Aleph 3)
Sources_
1)Onkyo CDP
2)Rotel 971 CDP
3)Resolution Opus CDP
4)A low cost DVD player
Speakers
1)Apogee Centaur Minors
2) Celestion SL 6
3)Voight folded pipes with 8" Philips full ranges.(Rs 2,500/-! for the pair-home made)
Interchanging sources made a great deal more difference than interchanging speakers.
Perhaps this problem of source systems could be bypassed for the time being by using PC's with a USB DAC .
It does take a good CD player to get the best out of CD's.
Perhaps the best cost benefit ratio for newbies would be to use good quality low impedance headphones such as the Grado SR60s or 80's.
Without spending too much money, this could introduce them to really good quality sound and whet their appetite for a good loudspeaker based system.

That is a fine collection of CDPs ou have..

WOuld have been interesting to see the changes if the speakers were for eg
Wharfdale 8.1, QUAD 11, Proac Tablette and a Cremona Auditor.

but this is too theoretical.
BTW how did the Apogee fare with the resolution Opus ? That is one AWESOME cdp and the Apogees can be ruthless

Arj,
The only problem with the Resolution is that bad CD's, and there are too many of them, sound pretty horrible through the Apogees.
It appears that it is possible to get 95% of the Resolution's performance at less than 20% of the cost as per the article below.
Some smart DIYer on the forum could probably be able to lash up this unit.
POSITIVE FEEDBACK ONLINE - ISSUE 3
Fun With Used Equipment, or How to Put Together a $3000 Audiophile CD Player for $555!by Ed MorawskiMy introduction into the audiophile world was a Muse 2 DAC. I once laughed at the thought of adding a separate D-to-A converter, believing that the one built into my CD player was surely fine. I laughed until I heard the Muse 2. What an unbelievable improvement! I can still remember all the detail revealed for the first time. With its 20x8 bit oversampling, the Muse was cutting edge back in 1993, and holds its own today because we still use the Redbook CD format. The Muse also has an overbuilt power supply and topnotch construction, but the best part is that this unit, that once sold for $2000, can now be had for as little as $500 on the used market.What to pair it with for a transport? I have a surprising suggestion. Look on eBay in the computer section for an NEC MultiSpin 6Xe CD-Rom drive. The "e" stands for "external," and means the Model CDR-602 is a standalone CD-Rom drive with its own power supply and, more importantly, a S/PDIF digital output. These CD-Rom drives are usually available at prices ranging from $2.95 to $12.95. I just bought two for $2.95 plus shipping! They do require a caddy, so make sure the one you buy includes one. (A caddy is a plastic and metal holder for the CD which then gets inserted into the CD-Rom drive.) Interestingly, many of the top CD makers now use computer CD-Rom drives in their best players. Why? Because they are rugged, dependable, and can read any type of CD, CD-R or CD-RW. The drawback? No remote control. You have to get up to change tracks or, of course, you could just hit "play" and let it go through all the tracks. While you're on eBay, pick up a Canare Digi-flex Gold Digital cable, which is readily available for $25 to $40 and rivals any of the higher-priced cables. So, hopefully you've spent $500 for the Muse 2 (or already have a DAC you like), $15 or so for a transport, and $40 for a top-quality cable. Now, hook them all together and run the output of the Muse into your system and prepare to be blown away! Just for grins, I bought exactly the above system and compared it to my reference Resolution Audio Opus 21 ($3000). It was difficult to tell them apart! If anything, the NEC/Muse combo had better (meaning tighter and more well-defined) bass than my reference. Its upper end detail was comparable, but perhaps a little more harsh. At first, I felt the Opus 21 had more air in the top end, but I knew I would have to spend more extensive listening time with the combo.Only after many hours playing CDs did I feel ready to render judgment. Four CDs were primarily used for listening: Keiko Matsui's Deep Blue, Norah Jones’ Come Away With Me, Diana Krall's Look of Love, and finally Lara St John's Bach Concertos. Although louder in volume on the Opus 21, bass seemed better defined on the Muse/NEC, after careful level matching of the components. Both setups revealed cymbals that sound like cymbals and clearly defined brushes—always a tough trick for a CD player—but I had to give the edge to the Opus 21. There was slightly more air around the strings and cymbals. Vocals were smooth and silky on both machines.As I spent more time with the Muse/NEC combo, I began to realize it had a unique sound—not at all unpleasant but difficult to put my finger on. While the Resolution Audio played all music with superior results, the Muse/NEC seemed to depend more on CD quality. I must attribute this to the upsampling on the Opus 21, which is totally lacking on the Muse. Nevertheless, on certain recordings the Muse sounded more precise and detailed than the same CD on the Opus 21. Could this be the result of the caddy on the NEC? As someone very familiar with computers, I know the caddy system is much more precise and stable than drawer-type CD transports. The caddy also has another big advantage. When you insert it into the CD-Rom drive, a narrow slit is automatically opened in the bottom. This exposes only a small portion of the CD, and must limit "laser scatter" considerably—sort of like using a black pen and blacking out the clear parts of the CD, except the caddy "blacks out" the whole CD except the portion the laser is reading. Whatever is happening, this is good stuff. The more I listen, the more I like it. In my final session before writing this, I connected the NEC's digital output to my Opus 21’s digital input. Wow again! Vocals were especially full bodied, while the highs seemed more delicate and well formed. Again, I must attribute this to the NEC's superior reading and caddy transport system.What have you got to lose? It's rare that something this good and this inexpensive comes along. Grab a NEC CDR-602 while they are still out there, and experiment.

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