NAD 3020

I have not really heard the 3020 but if what its Grandkids (viz 320bee) are anything to go by the Bass should be good.

I am not too sure of the speakers either.
But just a general tip, just in case you have not tried it before, Muddy Bass can be caused due to many reasons and before you buy anything try these simple "home" tweaks first.

To iMprove Bass
1. Speakers should be Strongly coupled to the Floor Ideally through spikes in case of Floorstanderes . In case of Bookshelves they whould be strongly coupled to a Stand wihic is coupled to the floor

2. In case the cabinet of the speaker is not very hard (A knuckle knock should not sound Hollow) place even Weights...ideally identical bags filled with Sand (even Rice!) on top of both speakers

3. Amp whould also be strongly coupled as above

4. CD player should be on a surface that absorbs Vibration (YOu could try a Cork base which Manek seems to have done pretty successfully) another simple tweak is to fll 4 small identical bowls with Sand and keep a marble in the middle and rest your CDP on that !

If you still have a problem you could try out Interconnetcts first and then Speaker cables...

If still a No No then the problem is with the Amo or the speakers !

Do revert back with your findings on the above !

Arj,

Thanks a lot for your advice. Last night I filled up the speaker stands with sand. (It used to be hollow inside!) The overall sound seems better in definition of imaging and the bass improves a bit too. I'll try to follow all your tips. But I have a few questions:

1. How should I couple the speakers to their stands?

2. How should I couple the stands to the ceramic tiled ground?

3. If I fill up bowls with sand and centre a marble on the sand for each of the bowls and place my disc player on top of them, the marbles will be pressed down into the sand, right? How can I keep the marbles in place? (Or I misunderstand your tip?)

Looking forward to your response. Thanks again.

Since your speakers are filled with Sand, the can be coupled to the Stand with Spikes. In case the speakers did not come with Spikes,one very much discussed product is "Blue Tac" apparently you get it in any Hardware store (I have never tried it) and can be used to fix the speaker to the stand.
(Some Speakers/stands can be Bolted together with Screws..is that n option for you ? )

Stands usually have a Spike to couple to the floor and that should be enough (What flooring do you have..Carpets are Ideal for spikes. In case of wood, put a Coin under the Spike)

How heavy is your CDP ? if above 5 kg (10 lbs) this may not work !
in that case you would need to use any other Dampner ..

or else you could try to put a coin half into the sand, lightly cover with sand and keep the marble on that !

Some other often used tweaks are
- Half filled Bycycle Inner tube
- Squash/Racquet/Rubber Balls sliced into 2 (4 pieces)
- Bubble Wrap
- Rubber Mats (The perforated Ones)
- tray full of sand covered by a piece of MDF wood ...eg a Chopping board
YOu could also try the Cork found on Champagne Bottles. if you find 2-3 identical ones, cut them into two and place them Flat sides down on the floor and rest the CDP on that.

etc etc...try the most easy ones to see if there is any impact... that is the most Infuruating a well as Exciting part of this whole Hobby !!

Also remember to ensure that the Amp is very rigidly placed...Ideally on the floor or on a Stable Rack.

tell us the results of your experiments after that

use cork sheet..for your cd player....amp and speaker base. Use granite tiles under the cork.

Nothing like it.

Manek, Not sure if cork under Speaker& Amp is good for Muddy Bass..it would help Lean Bass Though

CDP of course should be always on an Absorbent

yep....Its for all kinds of bad bass....I've used it effectively in conjunction with the granite tile over the cork. Cork sheet if 12"x12" will basically absorb all vibrations on the surface on which your speaker/system sits and then put a 12"x12" granite tile over the cork sheet and put your speakers on the tile. The speakers ideally must have spikes. This way the speakers are isolated from the vibration carrying surface by the cork and the the tile gives the speaker a hard surface to sit on.

Believe you me it works like magic and no fancy shmancy...accssories needed. The cork should be 1/4 inch thick and the granite tile should be 1/2 inch thick or more.

I must have tried tens of other stuff but nothing works as well as this combo. This is my personal experience.

Manek.

Will try that one once I am back in India...sounds like an interesting Experiment.. Goody.. I Love Audio Experiments !!!!

Arj,

No, my speakers can't be bolted with screws. However, I can install spikes at the platform corners to support the speakers. I've tried this before but I forgot how this affects sound. As I'm afraid the pointed ends would scratch my speakers, I've already uninstalled the spikes. I'm considering to use Blue Tac to attach the speakers to the stands. But I think it's not easy to level the speakers with such soft material, right? Should I buy spikes to support the speakers on the stands?

I have ceramic tiles for the flooring. So should I use anything to put under the spikes?

I'm also considering to try Manek's method. However, Manek, I should put the tile on top of the cork, not the other way round, right? I'll see if I can buy such cork with the height as described by you later today. Will post here the result.

Two nights ago, I detached the speaker stands again to fill more sand into them (really full of sand now...) and attach the bases with the single supporting steel bars with Magic Steel. Now the bass sound does sound better with higher clarity. I can hear plucking of acoustic bass strings now. Previously, I could only hear bass sound "layers"... I'm glad. But I still need to tighten the bass some more.

Nice to hear the sound is improving..it does give a good feeling right ?

But I think it's not easy to level the speakers with such soft material, right?

I think a very thin layer of Blue tac is only required..just to hold it steady. Since these are Sand filled you should not have a problem as the weight is good

Regarding Spikes, since your Speaker would be heavy Spikes can be used and that too will have a tendency to tighten the Bass..

have ceramic tiles for the flooring. So should I use anything to put under the spikes?

YOu can try out with coins..ideally brass or brass alloy ones around the size of a 5 US cent .. but while doing this also test out the high frequencies as they might get sharper too...am sure you do not want to end up with a Bright system!

Is your Amp on spike or base too ?

BTW..what is the placement of the speakers like ?
Did you try moving this slightly towards the backwall & Corner (Lower fequencies do get a bass boost that way and sometimes improved clarity..although it may not tighten the Bass.

In case it is too near, THEN moving away from the walls can tighten the Bass

What I have found out is that if your speakers dont have spikes then cork on top of the granite works well.

if the speakers have spikes then granite tile over cork works out better.

manek.

Yes, Arj, I feel pretty good whenever I can hear sonic improvements in my system.

I've already put the upper spikes back for supporting the speakers on the stand platforms. I also put coins between bottom spikes and the floor. I could not hear any differences after putting the upper spikes back. But I do experience some effects after setting up the coins. The bass is now tighter and the overall sound is punchier but not too bright. Brass sounds more lively. Acoustic piano is not dull anymore. I'm especially glad on this as piano music is one of my favorites. Although the upper spikes can't help much, they can elevate the speakers a little bit for more proper speaker position.

About speaker position, I can't move much as my listening area is quite limited. One bad thing is that there is only a wall by the left speaker. There is no wall by the right one. I think this affects the balance of 3D-image. Do you think so? Any solutions without "building the right wall"?

I've checked the local stores for spikes for my cd player and amplifier yesterday. They're too expensive for me. I think I should go for the alternatives as kindly suggested by Arj. Now, I only put a 1/4" cork sheet under each of the equipment, as suggested by Manek. Will try to check the cost for granite tiles later. Anyway, I find that the cork has improved the depth of the soundstage, the details and the fullness of the overall sound. It makes bass tighter and deeper too. So now my system can produce decent bass. Although it's still not nasty enough, I'm satisfied.

I've never thought the home tweaks can lead to such positive results. I'd like to explore and experiment more. If I can do some more to extend the width of the soundstage, it's great. You know, the soundstage is just not wide enough that I can hear certain instrument sounds coming from the speakers... It seems that the speakers are the limit.

One more question for now:

I found my 3020 needs to warm up about an hour before getting really good sound. (Similar feedbacks have been expressed on the Internet.) I've read a post from somewhere else that leaving it on all the time is preferable in order not to wait much time for the better sound.

I've been leaving it on for a few days. Nothing bad has happened so far. But should I keep leaving it on all the time for my future entertainment? I'm not worried about the power consumption as I believe it should not be much. I concern more about how long I can enjoy music with the amplifier. I don't want to shorten its life by without turning it off...

Any amplifier will sound its best when warmed up....electronics change their behavioral characteristics when they are hot...luke warm or cold. So its true for any amp. Tubes especially. Tubes sound changes quite dramatically between cold, luke warm and warm. Solid state amps change sonically but not as much.

Keeping it on all the time is not what I would suggest.

BTW: two granite stone tiles would not cost you much. A few dollars perhaps.

Already ordered 2 pieces of granite. Will get them tomorrow and see if they can make any positive differences.

I'm thinking to put half squash balls under my cd player and spikes for my amplifier too. but before i go any further, i'll check the effects from the granite first.

granites for the speakers...right ?
as I said if your speakers have spikes...put cork below the granite...and speakers on granite, if speakers have no spikes put cork above the granite and speakers on them.

I think I've misunderstood your advice, Manek. The granite was tailormade in size for supporting the amplifier and cd player. After putting it underneath the equipment and on top of cork, the overall sound became heavier, which I don't like much. Then, I took out the stones and follow your instruction to put them under the speaker stands (w/ spikes) and on top of cork sheets. Now the sound is a little bit tighter. The bass is close to what I want. The treble and middle are a little on the bright side but they're acceptable and this results in more neutral sound. I'm truly glad! Thank you both for advice!

And about squash balls, I really bought 2 and cut them in halves. After putting them under the cd player, the sound is not good at all. The fact that the cd player shakes more easily on them makes me curious why people suggest such way to improve sound. Anyway, I've removed them now. Thanks god that they didn't cost me much.

Now I'm not satisfied with the details. It seems that the details are not enough and something should be done to get higher clarity and transparacy. I'm considering to upgrade the interconnect cables between the cd player and the amplifier. Any cable recommendations for the sound to keep its tonal quality but improve its details?

the combo of the cork and granite....the bass is cleaner so you will feel that the mids and highs are more pronounced.

For my cd player and amp I just use cork. You can try cutting 2inch X 2 inch square pieces of cork, 1/4 inch thick and put them under the legs of the cd player and amp.

Interconnects are many to chose from. VDH(van den hul) D-102 MKIII or monster MkII 400. Like all equipment you should hear the the cables befor you buy.

what cdp do you have ?

manek.

now i use 2 cork sheets, one for cdp and one for amp. both measures 18" x 10". should i not use such large size but smaller one as you suggest and put each small piece under each foot of the equipment?

i know there are many cables to choose from. this is the hard part to me. and it seems that i can't audition for cables in the few hi-fi shops here. anyway, i'll try to beg them for this.

those 2 models you mentioned really receive good reviews. i prefer the vdh one but it's highly priced that i can't afford. the monster one seems to have a tendency to smoothen treble/mid sounds, according to some online reviews... you have to know that i prefer neutral, clear, transparent and "speedy" sound. and i think vdh can help me this way. do you know if there are any other models at lower prices that have similar quality of D-102 III HYBRID?

i use atecs dvd-1368p to play cd's and other types of discs. i'm sure you haven't heard the brandname. it's just a hong kong or mainland chinese brand specializing in producing budget equipment. as you know, it's only a multi-disc player. but i don't have so much money to buy a real cdp. so i have to get the best out of my system with little things like cables or so.

hi...the cork sheets you are using is fine...I also prefer the entire sheet.

Your problem may be the DVD you have more than your existing cables...What cables do you use currently ? You probably are askng too much from a DVD player.
VDH or such like is not going to do much to your current source. Another cheaper cable which I also use sometimes is VIVANCO HT. They have two kinds of audio cables...the first one is very very basic and the second one comes with 24kt gold plating with di-electric double shielding. It comes in a combo of transparent and dark blue/purple packaging. Its a cheaper cable but pretty good. Why dont you check the price of this if it is available where you put up ? by the way where do you reside ? Dont buy it yet...just let me know if it is available and verify the cable with me first.

eelekim,
DVD players typically have slightly flimsy cabinets causing vibrations . One tweak which could help in smoothening the sound would be to Dampen the top of the CDP by placing a weight on top of it (1-5 kg's)

Ideally put a cork sheet on top and then place the weight (Bag of sand/leadshots /dumbell etc etc... one of my firends even put 2 bags of 1KG rice packets !!

that should help the sound. In fact the sound appears a bit dead then it has been overdone and hence would need to remove some weight !

Cheers

I use cheap interconnect cables, which don't even have any brandnames. You know, they're just those black (-) and red (+) stuff. I think I have to replace them ASAP...

I'll try to find Vivanco cables here in Macau. But I think I can't as it's not a well-known brand here. Will post my hunt result here.

Arj, manuals always tell us not to put things on top of disc player. Are you sure putting some weight on my player will not hurt the mechanism inside? Maybe I'll try to put some sand to test first. Thanks again for your tip.

I've found a webpage about tweaking: http://www.audience-av.com/column.shtml. Have you read it? What do you think?

When manuals talk of things they mean not to use it liks a shelf is not to place components like Amplifiers, speakers, Cofee which could generate heat.

What is being suggested is to Dampen the casing of the CDP so that cabinet resonance does not color the sound..and this does have some impact on the quality of the sound. The reason why the premium high end CDs are so heavy is due to the amount of Damping that has been done, as well as the choice of Non resonant materials and casing design

My NAD is actually a budget cdp..but it sounds MUCH better as I have damped even the transport mechanism with Blu-tack..as well as some small basic mods

I am planning a small change to the Op Amp, the rectifier diodes as well as the main CAPS and effct Should be much better...

cheers

I bought a set of interconnect cables today! They're NBS Stingher. The price is acceptable. According to the shop owner, their neutral character can improve the mid and bass sounds. There should be more details when using them too. I can replace them with another set if they're not suitable to my system. But he doesn't have many brands for me to choose from. Fyi, Stright Wire, Supra and some other brands are available.

I've already installed them. The first impression was that the treble and mid sounds are more solid, not as thin as before. According to the instruction, I need to run the cables for about 48 hours to equal. Will see...

Arj, I understand now. After "burning" the cables, I'll try to put some weight on my CD player, at least for experimentation.

ARJ is right....this concept of putting weight on the cd player is called mass loading.....I use a 5 pound flat dumbell weight on it wrapped in soft cloth.
You could try putting any weight available in the house to hear the difference and then buy the weights.

yes dont put any hear generating stuff on it...just plain dead weight.

manek.

After the break-in of my interconnect cable, I've tried to put some weight on my CDP. After a few attempts, I found positive effects from certain weightness. Now I have a little bucket (actually an inverted round cover for a set of 50 CD-R's) with about 3/5 full of sand with a piece of thin cloth underneath on the top centre of my CDP. This works best for my system. I've tried to fill it all up but the sound was so dull. Now the weight improves the bass performance that the bass doesn't spread out as much as before. But it's still deep as per the miracle of the new cable. The biggest benefits from the weight is that there is much air between different instruments and some subtle details are able to be heard now! This is really a surprise to me.

I think I'm now addicted a little bit to further improve the sound. The new cable already does its good job to improve the soundstage and the details, tighten the bass and make the treble and high thicker in a healthy way. But I want to keep the current overall sound characteristics and move a step forward to upgrade the details and minimize interferences. My next adventure is on the speaker cable. My eyes are on the Supra 3.4/S but I think I can't squeeze the wires into the tiny holes of the speaker terminals of my NAD 3020... Any recommendations?

Although Bare Wire is the Best termination, if not done properly it can cause RFI.
Spades are best for NAD's (Or rather Any Amps!) i think they are size 1/4 spades that are required for NAD which surprisingly has different spec !..they are the smallest ones.

Another termination, are the pin ended ones..they are like very thin bananas and can be inserted into the post. it is a kind of a reducer for the wire and comes with straight or angled. but they can get loose and needs to be tightened once a month


The newer NAD's do accommodate bananas...what you have to do is Pry out the Plastic Caps at the end of the binding posts with a Knife/Needle plier. not sure how it works with the 3020 though

If you can manage the bare wire nothing like it. There are a lot of monster locks without soldering which are very good. They come in spades, banana, braids and thin angled connectors. You can use them with any 12, 14 16 guage speaker wires without soldering.
I use the monster lock banana for my speaker cables and it really gives a good connection. very happy.

I would even look at the same brand of speaker cables as your inteconnect. May really turn out to be ideal for you.

I can use spades for the terminals on the speakers but not on the amplifier as there are only cheap plastic spring loaded speaker terminals on the amplifier. It seems that I can only connect 16 AWG (or 14 AWG at most) to the amplifier. This is really a limitation for my new cable choices.

I also think it's better to use speaker cables of the same brand as the interconnect cables with which I'm satisfied. However, the prices of NBS's speaker cables are too high for me...

I'll try to visit a few shops to check out what brands and models I can choose from. Then, more researches will have to be done. Surely, your opinions are welcome.

Even if you have sprint clips there is a monster plug like I mentioned with the thinner angled pointed connectors which are made for spring clips or you could use braid connectors. On those connectors you can use 12,14,16 guage cables. So you do have choices.

See the monster locks and then you'll get an idea....get onto their website.

manek.