Need Advice On A 2 Channel Sound Card

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I plan to purchase a 2 channel Computer sound card. I am open to either a PCI card for the desktop or a maybe even a PCMCIA for a Laptop. The sound card is for using my PC as a Oscilloscope, Waveform Generator and Spectrum analyser, hence a wide freq response ( beyond 20 KHz ? ), Low noise ( -100dB ) and low distortion are what I am looking for in the sound card, with Only 2 Channels ( Stereo ). For my appliaction it would seem to be a waste to put money into a multichannel sound card used for home theatre. I would rather spend that money on doing 2 channels better. What are my options ? I would buy this ONly from India, dont want to wait for imports... I would not like to spend more than Rs 5,000 as far as possible. Can someone advice me what options I have available ? ( Specific models and prices, please ? ) Thanks

The sound card from Juli is available i think and even the EMu-0404 is available in india at around your price range.
Both are splendid sound cards for the price.

Hi Savyasaachi,

Thanks for the pointers.

The EMu-0404 seems ideal. Hope it is available at Lamington Road, Mumbai.

Can you provide me some model number for the 'Juli' card ?

Any indicate price ?

Thanks again

The emu 0404 would be available for around 6K. If you don't find it at lamington, try theitdepot.com or indmall.com. Keep in mind that this card uses phono 1/4" connectors.

The ESI Juli@ is another excellent card. Not sure of its price.

Thanks zhopudey .

Any idea of the Freq Response Specs for these cards ?

For some reason, Freq Response is hardly ever mentioned in the card specs.

For my PC based spectrum analyaser application, I think an extended Freq response ( maybe atleast 50 KHz ? ) will count for a Lot...

Yr feedback Much appreciated.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Thanks zhopudey . Any idea of the Freq Response Specs for these cards ? For some reason, Freq Response is hardly ever mentioned in the card specs. For my PC based spectrum analyaser application, I think an extended Freq response ( maybe atleast 50 KHz ? ) will count for a Lot... Yr feedback Much appreciated.

Amp Nut,
A few links..you'll be able to get a lot more off the web.searching on diyaudio.com forum should get some hits too.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/esi-julia/
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep04/articles/emu0404.htm
http://www.ixbt.com/...two-2444-spdif.shtml
http://forum.rightmark.org/topic.cgi?id=4:504


Sachi

Hmm....can't find sound cards supporting 50khz. All of them seem to be 20-20.

...using my PC as a Oscilloscope, Waveform Generator and Spectrum analyser...

You may check out USB scopes, P.O.Scope and also see other similar products, guess some of them would be available in India.

- Debu

Hi Debu,

Thanks for the pointers.

Infact, for quite a while now, I have looked at and lusted for something like a pico scope or a sting ray.

However, a closer look reveals that the entry level models will not be able to faithfully reproduce even a 10 KHz square wave....

The Pico scope model priced at Pounds 399 will do well. But then a Pound today is priced at very close to Rs 90 ! That puts such instruments, on par in price with a real world O'sope, which I prefer By FAR !

Given these facts, I decided either to spend a max of Rs 5 K on a sound card ( It won't still do the 10 KHz sq wave... I think. ) while I look out for a second hand O'scope.

Must say, there is a lot of info available onm this forum.

Thanks guys !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Debu, Thanks for the pointers. Infact, for quite a while now, I have looked at and lusted for something like a pico scope or a sting ray. However, a closer look reveals that the entry level models will not be able to faithfully reproduce even a 10 KHz square wave.... The Pico scope model priced at Pounds 399 will do well. But then a Pound today is priced at very close to Rs 90 ! That puts such instruments, on par in price with a real world O'sope, which I prefer By FAR ! Given these facts, I decided either to spend a max of Rs 5 K on a sound card ( It won't still do the 10 KHz sq wave... I think. ) while I look out for a second hand O'scope. Must say, there is a lot of info available onm this forum. Thanks guys !

When it comes to a scope ther eis nothing like a Tektronix one...i only wish i had access( wning one is never going to be possible...lol) to such scopes when i was building my speaker and amp.
The equipment in the labs tempt me quite a bit.

Hi Amp_nut,

I bought the ESI Juli@ a couple of months back. Got it for 7.5K from Setronindia.com.

The card is much better than my earlier sound card (Creative Sound blaster Live) and also better than the Denon and NAd Cdps that I have. Using it right now for Stereo playback of Flac encoded songs on my harddrive. I also do a bit of recording from Worldspace and Internet and though I can't make a direct comparison with other sound cards, this one for me is good. Beats the CDPs hand down while playing from the harddrive.

I am listing down the specifications as it is given in the manual that came with the card. I don't understand half of them btw..

Analog inputs
unbalanced parts
1)connector type : gold-plated rca female (line 1 and 2)
2)peak level : 0dBFS @ +6DBV (-10dBV nominal)
3) Impedance : 10k Ohms minimum

Balanced part
1) Connector type : 1/4" Female TRS-type
balanced or unbalanced (line in 1 and 2)
2) peak level : 0dBFS @ +20 dBu (+4 dBu nominal)
3) 10k Ohms minimum

Analog Outputs
Unbalanced part
1) Connector type : Gold-plated RCA female (line out 1 and 2)
2) Peak level : +6 dBV @ 0 DBFS (-10 dBV nominal)
3) Impedance : 100 ohms minimum
4) Attenuation control : -63 dB ~ 0dB (0.5 dB step size)
Balanced part
1) Connector type : 1/4" Female TRS-type, balanced or unbalanced (line out 1 and 2)
2) Peak level : +20 dBu @ 0dBFS (+4 dBU Nominal)
3)Impedance : 100 ohms minimum
4) Attenutaion ocntrol : -63 dB ~ 0 dB (0.5 dB step size)

Digital audio
Sample rate : 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 KHZ)
A?D Converter (AK5385A)
1. SIgnal to noise ratio : 114 dB (A-weighted) @ fs = 48 Khz
2. Dynamic range : 114 dB (-60 DBFS with A-weighted) @ fs = 48 Khz
3. Inter-channel isoltaion : -120 dB
4. Resolution : 24-bit

D/A converter (AK 4358)
1. ignal to noise ratio : 112 dB (A-weighted) @ fs=44.1 Khz
2. Dynamic range 9SW/N) : 112 dB (60dBFS with A-weighted) fs= 44.1 khz
3. THD+N : -94 dB @ fs = 44.1 Khz
4. Inter channel isoltaion : -100 dB
5. Attenuation control : -63 dB ~ +0dB (0.5 dB ste-size)
6. Resolution : 24 bit

Digital input
1. Connecttor type : RCA (provided via breakput cable)
2. Format : IEC-60958 consumer (S/PDIF coaxial)
3. Sampling rate : 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 Khz)
4. Resolution : 24 bit

Digital output
1. Connector type : RCA (Provided via breakpt cable ), Optical (On board)
2. Fornat : IEC-60958 (S/PDIF coaxial)
3. Sampling rate : 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 Khz (176.4 and 192 only coaxial)
4. Resolution : 24 bit

MIDI
1. 1-in, 1-out; Standard MIDI 5-pin DIN (Provided via breakput cable)


Also thereis a CD provided witha lot of software that I don't use but to a recording engineer it might make sense.

Traction
Cubase
Cakewalk SONAR
Wave lab
Giga studio
Tassman

Ronnie22 schrieb:

Hi Amp_nut, I bought the ESI Juli@ a couple of months back. Got it for 7.5K from Setronindia.com. The card is much better than my earlier sound card (Creative Sound blaster Live) and also better than the Denon and NAd Cdps that I have. Using it right now for Stereo playback of Flac encoded songs on my harddrive. I also do a bit of recording from Worldspace and Internet and though I can't make a direct comparison with other sound cards, this one for me is good. Beats the CDPs hand down while playing from the harddrive. I am listing down the specifications as it is given in the manual that came with the card. I don't understand half of them btw.. Analog inputs unbalanced parts 1)connector type : gold-plated rca female (line 1 and 2) 2)peak level : 0dBFS @ +6DBV (-10dBV nominal) 3) Impedance : 10k Ohms minimum Balanced part 1) Connector type : 1/4" Female TRS-type balanced or unbalanced (line in 1 and 2) 2) peak level : 0dBFS @ +20 dBu (+4 dBu nominal) 3) 10k Ohms minimum Analog Outputs Unbalanced part 1) Connector type : Gold-plated RCA female (line out 1 and 2) 2) Peak level : +6 dBV @ 0 DBFS (-10 dBV nominal) 3) Impedance : 100 ohms minimum 4) Attenuation control : -63 dB ~ 0dB (0.5 dB step size) Balanced part 1) Connector type : 1/4" Female TRS-type, balanced or unbalanced (line out 1 and 2) 2) Peak level : +20 dBu @ 0dBFS (+4 dBU Nominal) 3)Impedance : 100 ohms minimum 4) Attenutaion ocntrol : -63 dB ~ 0 dB (0.5 dB step size) Digital audio Sample rate : 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 KHZ) A?D Converter (AK5385A) 1. SIgnal to noise ratio : 114 dB (A-weighted) @ fs = 48 Khz 2. Dynamic range : 114 dB (-60 DBFS with A-weighted) @ fs = 48 Khz 3. Inter-channel isoltaion : -120 dB 4. Resolution : 24-bit D/A converter (AK 4358) 1. ignal to noise ratio : 112 dB (A-weighted) @ fs=44.1 Khz 2. Dynamic range 9SW/N) : 112 dB (60dBFS with A-weighted) fs= 44.1 khz 3. THD+N : -94 dB @ fs = 44.1 Khz 4. Inter channel isoltaion : -100 dB 5. Attenuation control : -63 dB ~ +0dB (0.5 dB ste-size) 6. Resolution : 24 bit Digital input 1. Connecttor type : RCA (provided via breakput cable) 2. Format : IEC-60958 consumer (S/PDIF coaxial) 3. Sampling rate : 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 Khz) 4. Resolution : 24 bit Digital output 1. Connector type : RCA (Provided via breakpt cable ), Optical (On board) 2. Fornat : IEC-60958 (S/PDIF coaxial) 3. Sampling rate : 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 Khz (176.4 and 192 only coaxial) 4. Resolution : 24 bit MIDI 1. 1-in, 1-out; Standard MIDI 5-pin DIN (Provided via breakput cable) Also thereis a CD provided witha lot of software that I don't use but to a recording engineer it might make sense. Traction Cubase Cakewalk SONAR Wave lab Giga studio Tassman

sigh...just wish i had bought a desktop instead..miss my old desktop.
The Juli is a mighty performer no doubt.
Soem more first hand insights would be much appreciated Ronnie.
I have my eye on this as well as the EMU 1612..

Hi Ronnie22 & Savyasaachi,

Thanks for your inputs.

I was wondering whether the EMu-0404 card is cheaper than the ESI Juli@ ?

Both seem similar specs on Paper, and for my application, subjective sound quality is un-important...

Any advice ?

Thanks

P.S: SURE a TEK scope would be LOVELY ! Yup I have been spoilt using Tek O'scopes, AVO meters and HP Audio Spectrum analyers.. :-)

Feels TERRIBLE now with mundain stuff...

But then I never thought - 20 years ago - I could get ANY form of these instruments for free as software add ons !

Amp_nut,
The EMU 0404 is apprx 6K when I last saw it listed on itdepot.com. However currently the site is down but creative has a pretty good distribution network and a lot of retailers as compared to the other manufs.

Sachi,
I will not be much of a help when it comes to describing my hearing experience and frankly I just do not understand (or maybe ignore) a lot of the terms used to describe music in this forum. However I'll give it a shot.

I could hear more detail when I played the same songs through the Juli@ as opposed to the NAD and Denon cdp. Both were played through a Marantz amp and speakers that I built (using Vifa drivers).

There seemed to be less noise. In fact I was surprised with the clarity and silence in the music passages. I really cannot pinpoint the noise when the same music was played through the cdp but as on overallpresentation the Juli@ seemed noise free.

I use the card to also record from the INternet and Worldspace and found these files to be very clear when I heard them later through my ipod.

One problem that I used to associate with my speakers are that it just does not reproduce the low frequencies very well. In fact some times they are just lacking. However with the Juli@ it becomes better but is still lacking whcih mostly either points to my room or the speaker design(Does excess recron stuffed into the speaker cause it to not reproduce the lower frequencies??)

I usually don;t tinker much with the amps, speakers, cdps, computer, etc once I have it setup. After that I just listen to a whole lot of music. Sometimes I feel I am losing out on the experience by not fine tuning but guess i'm just plain lazy

I hope this helped..

you seem to have brought more detail in your post than many other using audio terms !!

i would be in the market for a sound card soon and hence find this especially interesting.

Ronnie22 schrieb:

Amp_nut, The EMU 0404 is apprx 6K when I last saw it listed on itdepot.com. However currently the site is down but creative has a pretty good distribution network and a lot of retailers as compared to the other manufs. Sachi, I will not be much of a help when it comes to describing my hearing experience and frankly I just do not understand (or maybe ignore) a lot of the terms used to describe music in this forum. However I'll give it a shot. I could hear more detail when I played the same songs through the Juli@ as opposed to the NAD and Denon cdp. Both were played through a Marantz amp and speakers that I built (using Vifa drivers). There seemed to be less noise. In fact I was surprised with the clarity and silence in the music passages. I really cannot pinpoint the noise when the same music was played through the cdp but as on overallpresentation the Juli@ seemed noise free. I use the card to also record from the INternet and Worldspace and found these files to be very clear when I heard them later through my ipod. One problem that I used to associate with my speakers are that it just does not reproduce the low frequencies very well. In fact some times they are just lacking. However with the Juli@ it becomes better but is still lacking whcih mostly either points to my room or the speaker design(Does excess recron stuffed into the speaker cause it to not reproduce the lower frequencies??) I usually don;t tinker much with the amps, speakers, cdps, computer, etc once I have it setup. After that I just listen to a whole lot of music. Sometimes I feel I am losing out on the experience by not fine tuning but guess i'm just plain lazy I hope this helped..

hmm..first off i donot care too much for the audio jargon that floats around so freely on all audio forums.

Your erview is exactly what i am looking for. The usability factor.
First hand info on how it performs...and how best its features can be utilized by us users, what resuslts they got from that.

Regarding the dacron/recron...yes..using polyfill from partsexpress would defnitly do wonders to the speaker.
Glass wool is and probably still be a top choice for me(only if u know how to handle it, do u like it)

YEah, i am pretty lazy when it comes to fine tuning too.
..once thing is setup pop in some music and do minor adjsutment and listen is what i say!

Hey ronnie, you're now in mumbai right? I would like to bring my 0404 over for a comparision

Last time when I'd been to bangalore, I'd taken my card along to reingofchaos's place. We had a nice session comparing the EMU to his Citypulse dac.

His system is PC > M-Audio USB Soundcard > Digital outs > Citypulse DAC > NAD 320BEE > Jamo E855.

We connected the 0404's analog outs to the 320bee, and the digital outs to the citypulse, to another input on the nad. Music included corrs, rhcp, floyd, dire straits, springsteen, fleetwood mac, pearl jam etc.

It was actually the first time I was listening to real speakers with a real amp So, I was quite overwhelmed by the sound, and didn't bother doing much critical listening. Only problem was his room produced a nasty boom in the upper bass, which after fiddling with the EQ in foobar and the parametric EQ in the 0404, we found was at around 70hz. So, we just switched to norah jones, and continued with the enjoyment

Comparing with the Citypulse, I could make out some difference, but could not put my finger on it. I even thought it was due to the difference in levels. Maybe chaos can elaborate. But then, we put on floyd's dsotm, of which I have a 24/96 recording in FLAC. The difference was very clear suddenly. My 0404 completely lacked a sort of....err....shimmering effect of the guitars. For the first time in my life, I actually understood what the reviewers mean when they write "I could hear sounds I'd never heard before" (of course, they say that for all the reviews, so maybe they suffer from selective memory loss). But this difference was this pronounced only on that one album. For all other albums we heard, my 0404 held its own very well, considering it costs less than a third of the Citypulse


We didn't get time to compare digi-outs of 0404 and m-audio, but chaos said they sounded pretty much the same. So, all in all, I'm very happy with my 0404, and would certainly build my first system around it

Hi Folks,

On this topic of Sound Cards could anyone tell me as to how one could hook up a sound card mounted in a PC when the PC and the Hi-fi sound setup are in two different rooms requiring atleast 30 mt of interconnect cable. Would using Wi-fi be a better option ?

If you want to access audio stored on your PC throughout the house, something like a slingbox would be based. It is basically a wifi device which streams audio/video from the main server, and can be connected to your hifi or hometheater system. Google it, its incredibly popular.

Hi Behram,

I dont know of the sling box's availability in India.

You could look at the Apple Airport Express ( Rs 12500 with bill ) is a good, versatile solution but ( to me ) exhorbitantly priced.

An audiophile review of this product is available on the Stereophile site.

A demo is also avaiolable at Lamington Road, at the Apple showroom ( 1st Floor) opposite the Police Station.

A regular WiFi Router ( Rs 3750 ) will also do the transmitting job, at the server - your PC - end.

You will also need a suitable WiFi audio receiver to interface with the stereo. I believe Lynksys offers such a product. Check at Lamington Road...

Do let me know your findings, since I too am interested in such a solution.

Ofcourse there are VERY user friendly WiFi music stand alone systems available abroad. Check Oct Stereophile & What Hi Fi...

Problem... priced over Rs 1 Lakh...

zhopudey schrieb:

If you want to access audio stored on your PC throughout the house, something like a slingbox would be based. It is basically a wifi device which streams audio/video from the main server, and can be connected to your hifi or hometheater system. Google it, its incredibly popular.

Duh Squeezebox not slingbox :P. If you have the moolah, you can get the transporter as well :D.

Hi Zhopudey,

Yes, in Mumbai now.
You are always welcome . However you'll need to give me some time. Am in the process of building my system and the procy, mobo and Ram is on the way. Should be setup in another 10 days time. I also have the SB live so we can get an impression of the entry level card also.

Regards