Why amplifier power is important

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Beitrag

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#1 erstellt: 10. Jul 2006, 15:53

To produce a decent dynamic range, the system needs to be able to produce peaks of at least 100dB in your listening position, and comfortable peaks of 105dB to 110dB are better. However, 100dB is the bare minimum requirement, and any system that produces less than this does not deserve the name of hi-fi. It takes an amplifier with a lot of power to produce peaks of 100dB or more.

Many amplifier manufacturers produce units with low power and call them 'high-end.' Low-power amplifiers will produce a surprising continuous level, but unless they are coupled with extremely efficient loudspeakers, they cannot possibly produce a decent dynamic range. No matter what a manufacturer says, or how much it costs, a low-power amplifier is not genuine hi-fi.

Unless you understand the relationship between amplifier power and peak listening level, which most audiophiles do not, you are likely to be sold something that costs you a lot but is not really a proper hi-fi system.

One reason that few audiophiles understand the relationship between amplifier power and peak listening level is that loudspeakers and amplifiers are specified differently and there is no obvious way to use the information to find out what kind of peak levels you can expect from a particular system. Most manufacturers are loathe to clear up the confusion, for reasons that will become clear.

Loudspeakers are usually specified by their efficiency; they produce a certain number of dB for 1W at one metre. However, as you move away from the loud- speaker, you lose about 5dB for each metre over one metre. You'll see in a minute why you need to know this.

Amplifiers are usually specified by their power rating in watts.

To use these two pieces of information, you need one more number - the amplifier's power in dBW This is a measure of how much sound (dB) is produced for a certain amount of power (W). As you will notice on the table, the amount of power needed for each increase is not linear - each increase in dBW requires a steep increase in power. A low- powered amp will never be anything other than a low-powered amp: we are dealing here with the laws of physics.

However, armed with this information, you are now in a position to find out whether or not your system is capable of peaks of 100dB or more.

To find out what a system can do, take the loudspeaker's efficiency, add on the amplifier power in dBW and deduct for the listening position. You have now worked out the system's peak level capability.

For example, to work this out for a system with loudspeakers of 87dB efficiency and an amplifier power of 200W and a listening position about three metres from the loudspeaker: 87 + 23 - 10 = 100 dB peak level capacity. This assumes that the amplifier's power really doubles into 4 Ohms, a can of worms that we will not open at the moment, and that the amplifier is stable. In this example, the system would be just about reasonable

A --> Amplifier Power In watts.
B --> Amplifier Power in DBW.

A - | - B
10 -> 10
20 -> 13
50 -> 17
63 -> 18
79 -> 19
100 -> 20
200 -> 23
400 -> 26
800 -> 29

[Beitrag von SUB_BOSS am 10. Jul 2006, 16:03 bearbeitet]

Arj
Inventar

#2 erstellt: 10. Jul 2006, 16:13

Sub, you need to replace efficiency with sensitivity in nthe above.

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#3 erstellt: 10. Jul 2006, 16:14

Sub, you need to replace efficiency with sensitivity in nthe above.

You critique !

Arj
Inventar

#4 erstellt: 10. Jul 2006, 16:29

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

You critique ! ;)

well... it is always easier to find some fault in the hard work done by someone else than to put up something useful of ones own

so I just took the easier way out.

nice article.. but could you put up some info on Dynamic power requirement as well ? this gives a easy view of power requirements but dynamically the requirement can be very different and varying at each frequency point.

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#5 erstellt: 10. Jul 2006, 16:32

nice article.. but could you put up some info on Dynamic power requirement as well ? this gives a easy view of power requirements but dynamically the requirement can be very different and varying at each frequency point.

BTW Dynamic power is not only varying but tough to measure as aginst mean power, so I guess this is a fair evaluation.Looks like you are getting ready to throw more criticism///

Dear Amp_nut can you crack some nuts into what Arj has pointed.

well... it is always easier to find some fault in the hard work done by someone else than to put up something useful of ones own

I somehow feel this applies to me too.. what do you say.

What the damn it applies to everyone.. cheers

[Beitrag von SUB_BOSS am 10. Jul 2006, 16:36 bearbeitet]

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#6 erstellt: 10. Jul 2006, 22:41

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

you have started a good topic, SUB_BOSS altho I think that this topic has been dealt w/ on this forum before.
Nevertheless, thanx for educating the forum members.

A speaker system should be able to produce peaks of 120dB SPL at the listener's position. The human ear has a dynamic range of 120dB & so to make a system as realistic as possible a speaker system needs to match.
However, there can be several impediments: one is pointed out by you i.e. many power amps are low lower types to keep cost down. Some others are related to speaker x-over where lower order x-over disallows louder SPL levels. High order xover speakers allow much higher SPLs at the listener's position hence, these type of speakers never die despite most of them having horrid sound!

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Many amplifier manufacturers produce units with low power and call them 'high-end.' Low-power amplifiers will produce a surprising continuous level, but unless they are coupled with extremely efficient loudspeakers, they cannot possibly produce a decent dynamic range. No matter what a manufacturer says, or how much it costs, a low-power amplifier is not genuine hi-fi.

I'm not sure that I agree w/ you on this point. Low/flea power amps when coupled w/ high eff speakers (I'm talking 95dB & higher) produce superb sound. I've personally experienced this for an afternoon when I visited a dealer to listen to single-driver speakers powered by 5W/ch -> 20W/ch amps. For example when we powered Cain & Cain's Single-BEN loudspeaker, which is atleast 99dB efficient with a (Chinese) Antique Sound Labs 5W/ch amp, we got a very loud sound at 10+ feet. Very dynamic souund i.e. no hints of any compression.
The reason that I feel that low/flea powered amps can provide the DR desired is 'cuz the high eff speaker needs very little wattage to produce a high enough SPL at the listener's position. It often needs sub-1W power. Hence, all the rest of the power is in reserve for dynamic peaks.

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Unless you understand the relationship between amplifier power and peak listening level, which most audiophiles do not, you are likely to be sold something that costs you a lot but is not really a proper hi-fi system.

One reason that few audiophiles understand the relationship between amplifier power and peak listening level is that loudspeakers and amplifiers are specified differently and there is no obvious way to use the information to find out what kind of peak levels you can expect from a particular system. Most manufacturers are loathe to clear up the confusion, for reasons that will become clear.

Loudspeakers are usually specified by their efficiency; they produce a certain number of dB for 1W at one metre. However, as you move away from the loud- speaker, you lose about 5dB for each metre over one metre. You'll see in a minute why you need to know this.

you are on the correct track re. the loss in SPL as one moves away from the speaker but your numbers are a bit off:
One loses 6dB for every doubling of the distance from the loudspeaker baffle BUT this is valid ONLY for the 1st 2 meters. From the 3rd meter onwards, the loss in SPL is only 3dB. I *think* that this loss is valid upto 4m from the loudspeaker. Then, from the 5th meter onwards, the loss is even less.
The reason for this is that SPL at the listener's position is proportional to the inverse of the square of the distance.
additionally, we need to take 1-2dB off for furniture & curtains.
(BTW, bookshelves, tho' they absorb sound, can be used very effectively as diffusors. Same case for palm-tree potted plants.)

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Amplifiers are usually specified by their power rating in watts.

To use these two pieces of information, you need one more number - the amplifier's power in dBW This is a measure of how much sound (dB) is produced for a certain amount of power (W). As you will notice on the table, the amount of power needed for each increase is not linear - each increase in dBW requires a steep increase in power. A low- powered amp will never be anything other than a low-powered amp: we are dealing here with the laws of physics.

A low-powered amp is a low-powered amp BUT used judiciously, it can be used to create a very dynamic 2-ch system. No doubt in my mind on this one!

re. the non-linear inc in dBW: correct! the increase is logrithmic. Just FYI to all the others: The "B" column is obtained by performing 10*log(watts in column A).

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

However, armed with this information, you are now in a position to find out whether or not your system is capable of peaks of 100dB or more.

To find out what a system can do, take the loudspeaker's efficiency, add on the amplifier power in dBW and deduct for the listening position. You have now worked out the system's peak level capability.

For example, to work this out for a system with loudspeakers of 87dB efficiency and an amplifier power of 200W and a listening position about three metres from the loudspeaker: 87 + 23 - 10 = 100 dB peak level capacity. This assumes that the amplifier's power really doubles into 4 Ohms, a can of worms that we will not open at the moment, and that the amplifier is stable. In this example, the system would be just about reasonable

A --> Amplifier Power In watts.
B --> Amplifier Power in DBW.

A - | - B
10 -> 10
20 -> 13
50 -> 17
63 -> 18
79 -> 19
100 -> 20
200 -> 23
400 -> 26
800 -> 29

this is a quick calc that provides a very good guidance. It matches the SPL level using another set of calc that I use.

viren
Stammgast

#7 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 06:27

Hi,

All such analyses tend to look at equipment in isolation. You have to look at systems, particularly the amplifier/speaker combination. The sensitivity of the speaker has a tremendous bearing on the power required. Besides, not all amps of the same power rating are alike. A particular one may sound more dynamic than the other, because of its design (the input section has more headroom than the output power section and never distorts, so the amp recovers from overload much faster).

And there is another fallacy in the numbers. The drop in sound intensity of 6 dB per doubling of distance from a source only holds in free space - that is, in the wild yonders, with nary a building in sight! Fortunately, we live in protected surroundings and listen in rooms. What we listen to is primarily reflected sound. In a normally furnished living room, pink noise will vary within 2 dB between the boundaries of the room. Just easier for the amplifier!

Viren.

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#8 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 06:57

There is something wrong with this analysis of distance and dbw and dynamic loss

For example take a live concert. People at the front rows have different effect, people at the rear will NOT have that on the face sound , but some people prefer exactly this sound , going by this distance ,dbw, dynamics theory people at the rear of the hall should not be listening to HI-FI?????

In conclusion i feel that music has something more to do than only dynamics .......!!!

abhi.pani
Inventar

#9 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 08:18

One thing thats eating my head here.....
When we say 100 watts (at 8 ohms)....as Viren pointed out, there are amps with world of difference in Dynamics, all rated at 100 watts.

Taking a simple example, a Marantz PM7200 and Denon PMA-1500.

Marantz is rated at 100 watts at 8 ohms, while Denon is just 75 watts at 8ohms but the Denon has the Dynamics to bring the house down while Marantz sounds mild, like a 25 watter.

IMO we are forgetting to add the "Current" factor to our calculation of dynamics

Arj
Inventar

#10 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 10:57

Interesting point Abhi, we all know that power = Voltage x Current.

but current often becomes a limiting factor depending on the amp and due to its design it is unable to supply the amount of current really required at that time.. and hence many amps not having that control on Bass.

hence Two 100 W amps might have different current limits and hence behave differently.

Also it is my suspicion that Power is a highly overrated requirement and it is that ability ot maintain and meet current requirements which are more important.

anyone willing to throw more light on this ?

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#11 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 13:06

Dear Arj and Abhi,

To talk of dynamics of the same amp is impossible and diffrent amp is mighty impossible as this is a more generalised discussion. And in the discussion when I make a mention of amp with 100 watts I'm talking about ideal one and BTW if it delivers 100 watts in truest sense for calculation for Dbw is what helps us arrive at the required Dymanic range for music to be realisitic. Next you ask me assuming senstivity of speakers are same but there are several speakers which have different characteristics in the same efficiency bracket with same impedance, so how did I arrive at the calculations above.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#12 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 15:41

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

100 watts in truest sense

Again "truest" is itself arguable

How true is truest ??

Are you talking about 100 watts Class A

As I said are we not forgetting the current factor ???
For dynamics is it not the "power reserve" that matters rather than the "power" itself ?

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#13 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 16:07

Are you talking about 100 watts Class A

In what way does it matter whether it's class A, AB or D but I assume it has to have 100 watts and just that and why are you dragging along with current, You mean someone can consider the dynamics of amp and it's behaviour in each freq range to determine DBW..Then you have got the concept wrong my dear friend..I agree it makes a big diffrence in sound if a 100 watter has good drive as compared to a lame one, but for SPL required to make music realistic you need quoted power first and that's clean watts and it doesn't matter whether it's Denon or Marantz.Then comes how far it's exciting and rest and thats subjective.

For dynamics is it not the "power reserve" that matters rather than the "power" itself ?

An amp with good dynamics and drive itself will be considered and for getting to 100db for decent dynamic realisitic music you need an amp with lot of juice.

Read my staement in parent post :

It takes an amplifier with a lot of power to produce peaks of 100dB or more.

Hope this answers your question.

One reason that few audiophiles understand the relationship between amplifier power and peak listening level is that loudspeakers and amplifiers are specified differently and there is no obvious way to use the information to find out what kind of peak levels you can expect from a particular system

For your convenience and mine too and my foresighted assumption that you all would come up with such beautiful questions.Please see above what I wrote , so read carefully and it answers your question.

Again "truest" is itself arguable
How true is truest ??

You asked for it, so here it is :-
So going against truth is useless and you have to beleive whats in front of you. Don't get me wrong here but your 8100 is 100 + 100 watter at 8 ohms and it is what Plinius claims, but it consumes just 200 watt peak...so there is no way it can give you true 100 watt and that too at 8 ohms and at 4 ohms if it doubles it must be generating it's own power to drive..and if it goes to 2 ohms then god must be around to give it extra power required..as laws of physics tell you nothing can give you more than what it takes..but for the sake of calculation of SPL's we assume 8100 is a 100 watter in the truest sense as you've beleived and your dyn's are 86 db/w/m ..So with what amount of salt do we go ahead with calculations..I hope I have cleared the cloud of confusion or if you yet have some questions then there's no way you can calculate as all specs are BS and if looking for dynamics and current as you wanted to be included will not yield the basic calculations I have put above.Finally to give you an answer if an amp has better current and dynamics the music is more realistic at 120db..and if it's not it is not as involving as the one with good drive at 120 db too. ... Amen

[Beitrag von SUB_BOSS am 11. Jul 2006, 16:33 bearbeitet]

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#14 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 16:39

Sanathan wrote :

If Music is more than dynamics then it's not music to me if it's not realsitic and dynamic..May be some prefer to listen to it soft, but it takes away the real point I'm trying to put here that you need atleast 100db to make music more realsitic . I agree if some want to stay at the back in a live concert it's personal prefernce.

Bombaywalla wrote :

A speaker system should be able to produce peaks of 120dB SPL at the listener's position

Need I say more.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#15 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 16:44

[quote="SUB_BOSS"] Don't get me wrong here but your 8100 is 100 + 100 watter at 8 ohms and it is what Plinius claims, but it consumes just 200 watt peak...so there is no way it can give you true 100 watt and that too at 8 ohms and at 4 ohms if it doubles it must be generating it's own power to drive..and if it goes to 2 ohms then god must be around to give it extra power required..as laws of physics tell you nothing can give you more than what it takes..but for the sake of calculation of SPL's we assume 8100 is a 100 watter in the truest sense as you've beleived and your dyn's are 86 db/w/m ..So with what amount of salt do we go ahead with calculations..
[/quote]

You crook...

From where did you bring that thing here

Anyway my system is not Plinius + Dynaudio...its Plinius + Dynaudio + "My Hall"

Together they dont even support 90db

Forget about 105, 110 etc etc...So my system stands no where to this calulation.

[/quote]
I hope I have cleared the cloud of confusion or if you yet [/quote]

No you have increased it further.
Dont you agree that Power Reserve is more significant in determining the Dynamics rather than the power

Lets not go into distortion..if a amp is distorting then its basically killing the very basics of hifi. So without distortion if an amp has to perform, how much can you rely on the wattage specs ? Basically I mean to say that watts are a very very rough pointer to dynamics....atleast its true when you consider true hifi.
Now shoot......

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#16 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 17:06

Dont you agree that Power Reserve is more significant in determining the Dynamics rather than the power

Please it's dynamics and reserve power is all what add's up to the amp's mean power capability and not the other way round. have you ever seen an amp without good reserve and drive being qualified to give you good dynamics. You have disqualified Marantz eventhough on paper it has more power than Denon, It's the same here too and To get desired SPL's you need an amp with all these as prerequisites and lets not talk about those which do not qualify and this is what I have been trying to tell you.

You crook...
From where did you bring that thing here
Anyway my system is not Plinius + Dynaudio...its Plinius + Dynaudio + "My Hall" Together they dont even support 90db
Forget about 105, 110 etc etc...So my system stands no where to this calulation.

Why do you call me a crook? And what thing did I bring here?? The truth you were pursuing and I opened it??
Not that your system is not there in the calculation , it is very much there and bugger see below mentioned is your set up.

Dyn's 87 db
Listening distance 7.5 feet
Amp Plinius 8100 100+100 + 200 at 8 ohms and 4 ohms you have more as dyn's are 4 ohms.
Now see below you gugu and you too can enjoy HiFi

For example, to work this out for a system with loudspeakers of 87dB efficiency and an amplifier power of 200W and a listening position about three metres from the loudspeaker: 87 + 23 - 10 = 100 dB peak level capacity

Your system has been used as refernce and you are jumping like a 90 year old with hard-on.

As far as your smart addition of your hall in a reminding manner to me that I have blissfully forgotten draws my attention to my original post.

Loudspeakers are usually specified by their efficiency; they produce a certain number of dB for 1W at one metre. However, as you move away from the loud- speaker, you lose about 5dB for each metre over one metre. You'll see in a minute why you need to know this.

Abhi wrote :

Again let me remind you I wrote that only a good amp can give you realsitic sound and to get it you have to be far from distorting levels, so why bring it here and distort the topic. Yes I do agree watts are rough pointer, but to attain 100 db for realsitic sound you need it dude.

I wrote :

but for SPL required to make music realistic you need quoted power first and that's clean watts

Hope I have answered your distortion question in my last post.. Clean watts = Distortion free sound.

[Beitrag von SUB_BOSS am 11. Jul 2006, 17:31 bearbeitet]

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#17 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 17:36

dynamic and relaistic are correct i can understand your point , but i am tring to enquire ..

So people who hear less than 100 db dynamic range in say a classical concert are not hearing realistically?

Whay i mean is that although dynamics are a measure of a system but its only a very subset of music

Can we say for sure that if a system exceeeds 100 db dynamics , then it will produce realistic dynamics ... and if it doesnot then it will produce music unrealistically?

I want to know others opinions on this ....

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#18 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 17:57

So people who hear less than 100 db dynamic range in say a classical concert are not hearing realistically?

We are talking about reproduced music here.

Whay i mean is that although dynamics are a measure of a system but its only a very subset of music

But it plays a very important role and dynamics are what makes music good.

Can we say for sure that if a system exceeeds 100 db dynamics , then it will produce realistic dynamics ... and if it doesnot then it will produce music unrealistically?

It's not the case that but closer to 100db the better it is?

Like you have 9.5 hundred thousand but not a 10 to make you a millionaire nonetheless not a beggar either and you are still rich.

[Beitrag von SUB_BOSS am 11. Jul 2006, 18:03 bearbeitet]

abhi.pani
Inventar

#19 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 19:11

I remember you telling a few days back that a 25 watt Class A sugden was beating the hell out of the 100 watt Bryston Monoblocs, that too paired with Proacs which are not very easy to drive....now how do you justify your calculation here ? With such kind of variations between equipments (just based on continuous power output) how do we use the chart ?

No buddy, I was never thinking in terms you have interpreted here. How far my system qualifies as hifi according to this calculation is not too much of a concern to me as because, SQ wise I dont have any doubt about them and dynamically whether they achieve 100db or 140db, how does it matters to me when I cannot even go beyond 90db

. Thats the reason I didnt go for 8200, they wouldnt have done anything extra for me in my room environment.

Your system has been used as refernce and you are jumping like a 90 year old with hard-on.

Cmon man, please dont compare my innocent queries to a old man's hard on

All I am saying is, even if an amp has lesser continous power but higher dynamic range (basically higher current) it can do the 100db job...so there are so many factors which needs to be fulfilled to get that 100db thing going and watts can be very misleading here.

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#20 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 21:03

viren schrieb:

IMHO, there is no fallacy in the numbers here!

if you read my original post above, you will note that there are some dB subtracted for furniture + curtains & the like. This is the fudge-factor to the ideal 6dB/doubling that exists in free-space (as you correctly point) out.
There is one other thing that needs to be pointed out: I've seen & read that people in the industry consider speaker frequency responses that vary +/- 3dB to be practically flat. Similarly, I would consider the -6dB/doubling to be off by +/- 1 or 2dB.
At any rate, these calculated numbers should be taken as a guidance & not the absolute truth.

2nd thing I want to mention (& I forgot to write this in my original post): the SPL numbers written in SUB_BOSS' original post are for 1 speaker only! We listen in stereo so we need to add 3dB for the 2nd speaker to the SPL level at the listener's position. So, in SUB_BOSS' example, the 200W/ch amp will produce 103dB SPL at 3m.

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#21 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 21:11

Hi Bombaywalla thanks for the extra tips

Hi Abhi Pani don't feel bad about the old mans hard on comment and no hard feelings too!

As far as Sugden is concerned it is much better than most power amps costing the same........ remeber we are talking about power amps costing 40 - 50 k being ripped by Sugden, but bigger ones like plinius, Audio Alchemy , Krell are in another league... But when it comes to dynamics nothing can match a good power amp.

you are right friend watts indeed are misleading but when genuine my topic is as good as any.

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#22 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 21:24

sanathan schrieb:

From my listening experiences, I would say that this is correct!

it holds esp true for classical music & withing classical music, holds even more for large orchestral works.
You do not need to believe me! TRY IT FOR YOURSELF in your setup!
Play some classical music (say, Beethoven's 5th Symphony, which is known widely worldwide). Adjust the volume so that you have about 80dB SPL at your listening chair. You can use pink noise to set the SPL level at your chair. Listen to the 1st movement. You'll hear everything (if your system is up to it) i.e. you'll hear the low passages, the cresendos, the instruments come in & fade out, the drums in the background, etc.
After the 1st movement is over, stop. Adjust the volume so that you have 90dB SPL at your listening chair. Re-listen. Tell me if you hear a difference or not?
If you have heard this piece in real-life, it'll take you a few notes in each experiment to come to the conclusion.

You can try some other pieces of music as well. You'll find the lower SPL levels to be more offensive on certain pieces of music than on others. I bet you that the pieces of music that you find it most offensive on will be pieces of music that are the most dynamic!

By having the SPL level low, the music will lose its vibrancy, the nuances of the music will be hidden & it'll not connect w/ you emotionally.

In a concert hall the SPL does drop off as you move away from the stage but the absoluet level in the back rows is still very high (higher than you might expect it to be) & that is the reason that the music still sounds realistic in the back rows.
The advantage of the back rows, as you point out, is that the sound of the instruments becomes more cohesive & there is better separation & more timbral info in the sound. The front-row-center seat has a much, much more up-front sound that is more diffused (coming from everywhere) & the instruments do sound different when listened to at such close range.
There are some who like to sit in row M (middle) where the SPL drop-off is not too much but the sound is more mid-hall. There are still others who prefer the balcony, which has the overhang, wherein a box-like effect is created for the sound by the reflections from the ceiling. This has the effect of creating a more focused soundstage.

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#23 erstellt: 11. Jul 2006, 21:27

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla thanks for the extra tips

welcome!

abhi.pani
Inventar

#24 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 06:16

Hi Abhi Pani don't feel bad about the old mans hard on comment and no hard feelings too!

Hmmmmm.........I will think about it

As far as Sugden is concerned it is much better than most power amps costing the same........ remeber we are talking about power amps costing 40 - 50 k being ripped by Sugden, but bigger ones like plinius, Audio Alchemy , Krell are in another league... But when it comes to dynamics nothing can match a good power amp.

Agreed...

But thats the case when you go really high-end, where watts are really watts. But most of us out here are not into that band of hifi. People who are in that level of hifi can afford a krell for their Bass drivers, a tube amp for mid driver and may be another one for highs (tri-amping)....but if we come to a budget scenario where 1 Lakh for an amp is a big big deal...where does one go ?

Would you still prefer a 200 watts Rotel power amp over a real good 50 watts integrated amp (something like a sugden)?

Even I have been a big fan of dynamics...if you look at my earlier posts when I was going around listening to different stuffs, even I couldnt compromise on dynamics, but at entry level it looks like you have to compromise a bit here and there to get a really involving system...that may require you to compromise a bit on dynamics as well

you are right friend watts indeed are misleading but when genuine my topic is as good as any.

If I dont say "YES" here you may complain the moderator so I would agree here

But Watts = Involvement is not true at entry level

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#25 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 06:50

By having the SPL level low, the music will lose its vibrancy, the nuances of the music will be hidden & it'll not connect w/ you emotionally.

Infact, my observation is that there is, for most systems, One, almost specific Volume level when everything is JUST RIGHT.

Even exceeding this level, spoils the overall presentation.

I dont listen to Classical music, so my observation is for most of the other music genres....

Manek
Inventar

#26 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 07:00

same with classical Amp nut....and jazz and swing and blues and all the genres....

I think every amp has a volume setting or a range which is right for it...one just has to find it.

MAnek

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#27 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 07:35

Infact, my observation is that there is, for most systems, One, almost specific Volume level when everything is JUST RIGHT.

Even exceeding this level, spoils the overall presentation.

Very true and I will term it as amp limitation, what if a better amp drives better speakers and you get good SPL's without pain..

BTW music for me is always dynamic as my speakers are 98 db and placed in very near field so I sit like an owl in sweet spot getting hit by 105 db's with a slight crank up of volume.. yahoooo

Best is I always enjoyed Hariharan's vocals with drums..

buurrppp

ani
Stammgast

#28 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 08:08

Amp Nut and Manek i would like to add a point to your observation

" every amp, speaker and room (considered as a system)has certain range within which they sound the best"

Shouldnt we consider the lower sound level or the noise floor? asked because i presume that we are discussing the upper SPL from which you have to deduct the ambient noise to get the dynamic range, please correct me if wrong.

Anil

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#29 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 08:17

Dear ani,

You have made an EXCELLENT point.

I Never thought of it that way, but Yoiu Are Certainly Correct !

Music sounds 'Just Right' at a lower Volume level late at night when the ambient noise is much lower ( atleast in a city like Mumbai ! )

Ofcourse, I believe that the quality of the Mains power is also MUCH better, after 10 pm but that is another matter ...

Manek
Inventar

#30 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 08:38

Yes Ani...quite right.
Amp nut is right about the power too....

Manek.

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#31 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 15:08

Amp_Nut schrieb:

By having the SPL level low, the music will lose its vibrancy, the nuances of the music will be hidden & it'll not connect w/ you emotionally.

Amp_Nut, I did think that someone would make this statement & I can tell you that this aspect did cross my mind

Abhijit got to the point of the noise floor before I could address it (time difference) but that is not the point I wanted to make. While it is true that every album has a specific volume to be listened at, this statement is valid only if the "system is upto the task". This phrase in quotes was written in parenthesis in my reply to 'sanathan'. One of the aspects of "the system being upto the task" is that the noise floor be lower/lowest possible. This goes a long way in reproducing the music correctly & involving the listener.
However, after listening a lot, I have still not found any involvement by listening to music at 80dB SPL or lower while seated approx 10' from my speakers for any genre of music (except highly compressed rock

). I can hear everything but the involvement is not there. The noise floor in my system is pretty low & I have dedicated AC lines. I chose this low SPL for that reason to make a point to 'sanathan'.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#32 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 15:22

What is noise floor guys ???

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#33 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 15:41

When DD and Deaf take a break, the noise floor is low

abhi.pani
Inventar

#34 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 16:14

Amp_Nut schrieb:

When DD and Deaf take a break, the noise floor is low

hey...dont remind them about their silence, they may take it very seriously

Oh but whats noise floor buddies...cmon dont hide it

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#35 erstellt: 12. Jul 2006, 17:43

bombaywalla schrieb:

Amp_Nut schrieb:

By having the SPL level low, the music will lose its vibrancy, the nuances of the music will be hidden & it'll not connect w/ you emotionally.

Amp_Nut, I did think that someone would make this statement & I can tell you that this aspect did cross my mind

). I can hear everything but the involvement is not there. The noise floor in my system is pretty low & I have dedicated AC lines. I chose this low SPL for that reason to make a point to 'sanathan'.

one correction in my post above: I meant to write that "ani" got to the point of noise floor & not "abhi.pani". Sorry about that.

sanathan
Ist häufiger hier

#36 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 06:57

Yes i do understand that we need some dynamics to get things going , nobody can argue with that ...

but...

By having the SPL level low, the music will lose its vibrancy, the nuances of the music will be hidden & it'll not connect w/ you emotionally.

My Dad listened for about 20 years on only a philips valve radio , and he is very passionate about music ,how can we say he is not emotionally connected since he listened to very less spl and no dynamics?

I can tell you he is not naive either in music i always wonder what he felt so nice about the valve sound he always says ...

abhi.pani
Inventar

#37 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 07:04

sanathan schrieb:

Yes i do understand that we need some dynamics to get things going , nobody can argue with that ...

but...

By having the SPL level low, the music will lose its vibrancy, the nuances of the music will be hidden & it'll not connect w/ you emotionally.

I think we are back at square one which says "To each his own"

ani
Stammgast

#38 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 07:07

Personal preference

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#39 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 08:23

Dudes so much of information..thanks for all,the contributuions and no thanks to Abhi whom I shall call a conflict creator from today...

When DD and Deaf take a break, the noise floor is low

You mean when they floor each other the noise comes to minimum..

BTW where are these two guys?? Any news?? Hey deaf your inputs are needed in this thread and with ofcourse low floor noise

abhi.pani
Inventar

#40 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 08:31

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Dudes so much of information..thanks for all,the contributuions and no thanks to Abhi whom I shall call a conflict creator from today...

Hmmmmm...you could have PM me to support you then I would have been a different Abhi

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#41 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 08:44

Hmmmmm...you could have PM me to support you then I would have been a different Abhi

OK maharaj jee..

I will PM you now

Arj
Inventar

#42 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 12:03

sanathan schrieb:

hi Sanathan involvement in music has only little to do with quality of output. it is the quality of the involvement that varies

Most musicians and music lovers will still enjoy music out of crappy (in Audiophile terms) systems and they will still get to the soul of the music !
but again they would enjoy the music much more on a better system where dynamics is more and each instrument more clearely detailed.

Manek
Inventar

#43 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 12:31

An example you may find amusing....
The conductor Toscanini in the good old days used to hear concerts on the radio and still know if any of the musicians in whole orchestra made mistakes.....So its basically what you are looking for.

My father was brought up on valves and he still holds that valve sound very near to his heart. He still swears by the large spool tapes and the valve amps of old which he had. I'm sure there must be something in them for sure that still makes you yearn for them.

Loving valves myself, I can quite understand why.

Manek.

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#44 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 12:42

Manek nothing wrong with them but we are insane and never happy with anything and with the invent if internet we are aware of too many things and thus confuse ourselves.

They listened to music and we listen to equipments. huh what a sad state we are into.

square_wave
Inventar

#45 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 12:43

abhi.pani schrieb:

What is noise floor guys ??? :.

Noise floor is directly related to the dynamic range of any audio device. The lower the noise floor, more the dynamic range. This is because the dynamic range is as a ratio of maximum to minimum loudness in a given piece of music, and this measurement quantifies the maximum dynamic range an audio system can have. This is the ratio (usually expressed in dB) between the noise floor of the device with no signal and the maximum signal (usually a sine wave) that can be output without distortion. People usually confuse dynamic range and dynamics with “attack” and “bite” typically heard on cervin vegas and jbls when they play compressed rock.

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#46 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 15:06

sanathan schrieb:

Well, I cannot say whether your Dad was or was not emotionally involved in the music he heard. I'll take your word for it. I also don't know what the personal & financial situation was w.r.t your Dad (& I don't mean to find out either as it is irrelevant to this particular discussion).
However, I can say that he used equipment that was the sign of his times. Don't know whether this Philips tube (integrated) amp was the cats meow back then or whether it was middle-of-the-road.
There is a very apt saying that goes like this: if you have heard good sound, no explanation is necessary; if you have NOT heard good sound, no explanation can be given.
By this I mean to say, music was enjoyed back then w/ whatever best could be afforded & that became the reference sound. If he had heard better sound that had more realizm to it, would he have liked it. Probably "yes"!
If your system is better & more life-like & your Dad has heard, does he like his music better played thru your system? Probably, "yes"!
I think that "Arj" hit the nail on the head - depends on what your have been exposed to & what you are looking for. Emotional experiences w/ music come at different levels but once the mind/ear has been expanded w/ a life-like sounding system it can never go back!

Shahrukh
Inventar

#47 erstellt: 13. Jul 2006, 15:08

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

:L BTW where are these two guys?? Any news?? :D

One of them is lurking on the Buy N Sell section.

Ckeck it out!