Why Active?

+A -A
Autor
Beitrag
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#1 erstellt: 28. Nov 2005, 16:32
Why Active?

Active technology is the most significant audio advancement in decades; maybe the most important technological milestone since the invention of the loudspeaker.

Like other cutting edge technologies, active speaker systems started out prohibitively expensive, priced out of reach for all but high end systems. Now the electronic engineering expertise and manufacturing efficiencies make active sound affordable and reliable for all.

You will be blown away by the results. Below find out why:

Active sounds better: Active technology is a major breakthrough in audio quality. It brings loudspeaker boxes out of the dark ages by applying precise electronics to areas of speaker design that used to be handled by crude passive devices.

· Phase-accurate electronic crossovers with sharp slopes instead of wads of coils and capacitors (that can "eat up" as much as 30% of an amplifier's power output).

· Automatic phase correction & electronic time correction that would otherwise require expensive external delay units.

· Precise equalization to get the smoothest response from each transducer - the equivalent of a perfectly-adjusted parametric equalizer for each speaker component.

· Servo-control of the low frequency transducer. Since the woofer and its amplifier module can "talk to each other", the amp can tightly control cone motion. You get incredibly tight, accurate bass.

· The right amplifier for each transducer. External amps have to be designed as "one size fits all" devices to handle an unknown speaker load. Their performance with a specific transducer has to be compromised in order to handle anything that may be connected to them.

Active also eliminates some of the physical problems inherent in passive + external amplifier systems.

· No bulky runs of speaker cable (which can also add sound-compromising impedance variables, depending on their length and gauge).

· No danger of short circuits because of frayed cables or poor connections at the speaker terminals.

· Easier to integrate: Inside each speaker is usually the equivalent of two or three beefy power amps, an electronic crossover, and a delay unit; in other words, a whole rack of bulky electronics.

Active is more reliable: Active technology gives speaker designers control of variables that are unpredictable with passive speakers + external amps.

· The internal amps can be precisely tailored to their transducers' impedance and output characteristics. The results are ultra-reliable amplifier modules that "know what to expect" and therefore are much less susceptible to failure.

· The inbuilt speaker protection circuitry wouldn't be possible with passive systems (remember, active speakers have sophisticated electronic control of the amp's output behavior). Transducers can be driven to their maximum un-distorted output, but not into dangerous ranges where they're susceptible to burn-out. The result is bullet-proof reliability.

· But to hedge your bets against the unexpected, the whole amp/electronics section of our active speakers is easily "field-swappable" just in case.
Arj
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 28. Nov 2005, 16:34
what if I dont like the sound and want to try a different amp ..something "Warmer" than the current active amp in the speaker

In the end i will have to Like the sound as the speaker designer liked it rather than tune it the way I would


[Beitrag von Arj am 28. Nov 2005, 16:39 bearbeitet]
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#3 erstellt: 28. Nov 2005, 16:55
There are some speakers in the market where there are active crossovers and amps externally placed so that you will get a chance to use either passive crossovers with single amp per channel or use active ones or upgrade it.

But when there is no compromise then you can buy two amps by sellin ur old ones....



cheers,
Sandeep
square_wave
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 28. Nov 2005, 19:03
I guess in theory an active would be the best choice. But I have read pretty bad reviews on active speakers. A good example is the one on the very expensive meridian active speakers reviewed in the latest edition whathifi.
If meridian can make a bad sounding active speaker, I wonder ??????? any thoughts ??
Arj
Inventar
#5 erstellt: 28. Nov 2005, 19:28

square_wave schrieb:
I guess in theory an active would be the best choice. But I have read pretty bad reviews on active speakers. A good example is the one on the very expensive meridian active speakers reviewed in the latest edition whathifi.
If meridian can make a bad sounding active speaker, I wonder ??????? any thoughts ??



Actiually I would take that review with Dollops of salt ! the meredian system is fully digital and very neutral sounding. I thought that is a system to aspire to

In theory Active speakers actually are much better if well done especially in a studio environment (The ATC, PMC even DYn professional speakera have an option)

But in an audiophoile setup, where filks want it all different for the mix and match effect it does not work out.
Classic example being the Paradigm Active 40, which is highly valued now in the second hand market, but never sold much

To sum it all up.
1. Do I think Active setups are Superior - YES
2. Will I ever buy one for myself - NO
deaf
Stammgast
#6 erstellt: 29. Nov 2005, 07:18
What Hifi,please dont make me laugh.I stopped reading it 5years ago,when it became evident that IAG group products and their friends got good reviews,and everybody else got canned.Square Wave stay away from that magazines reviews on expensive procucts.My question to Sonic Master, with all due respect, is simple.Have you ever heard an such active system yourself,with all the features that you talk about in your post, as I am keen to know your audible perception of such a product.
Regards Deaf
Prithvi
Stammgast
#7 erstellt: 29. Nov 2005, 08:07
IMHO, after listening to the LINN ARTIKULATE 350A Aktives & the KOMRI's in AKTIVE config, they just blow you away, sadly even the money in your wallet/bank account gets blown too.

If I had the money I will surely go in for a complete Aktive set-up

Rgds
Prithvi
square_wave
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 29. Nov 2005, 09:05

deaf schrieb:
What Hifi,please dont make me laugh.I stopped reading it 5years ago,when it became evident that IAG group products and their friends got good reviews,and everybody else got canned.Square Wave stay away from that magazines reviews on expensive procucts.My question to Sonic Master, with all due respect, is simple.Have you ever heard an such active system yourself,with all the features that you talk about in your post, as I am keen to know your audible perception of such a product.
Regards Deaf


Ok………..I too was wondering about that review……
deaf
Stammgast
#9 erstellt: 29. Nov 2005, 09:26
In my opinion a small sealed system going to 90Hz(4"-5") woofer, with a low Fs tweeter allowing a first order x-over(phase accurate,very little amp loss),along with a powered sub or two(2nd order LP), resolves many issues from the design perspective.What amazes me is that very few manufacturers actually design systems using this straight forward method,now that so many low Fs tweeters are available.The only hinderance to this philosophy is in the vertical off axis response,which in most cases is affected only when you are standing.Most DIY chaps should go for this tpye of project.
Regards Deaf.
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#10 erstellt: 29. Nov 2005, 11:38

deaf schrieb:
What Hifi,please dont make me laugh.I stopped reading it 5years ago,when it became evident that IAG group products and their friends got good reviews,and everybody else got canned.Square Wave stay away from that magazines reviews on expensive procucts.My question to Sonic Master, with all due respect, is simple.Have you ever heard an such active system yourself,with all the features that you talk about in your post, as I am keen to know your audible perception of such a product.
Regards Deaf


let me tell u as simple as possible I do have experience in designing such stuff and i get the results to be exactly what I expect some times i dont...i ve been in research since very long time.

Upgrading is not at all necessary for the active system and very very important thing is that... we can build amps which focuss on that specified range of frequencies. so for hi freq you will use differnet components with differnt circuitry and for mid another amp and for low freq massive amplifiers. The cricuit behaves very differently for different frequencies. So there is no need to upgrade but its all designed for specific drivers.

One more thing an amp designed particularly for that frequency channel and for some speakers will be a perfect match.

There is a practical example how active system differs...

Lets consider we have a common 2 channel amp to drive a subwoofer in 18hz-200Hz then if you use a common amp then the sonic qualities will be much different when a plate/ subwoofer amp is used for it with massive toroidal with tons of capacitors over the power supply.

But if you want to upgrade active system the only thing that s recommended is upgrading the preamp for the kind of warm sound or whatever its needed.

cheers,
Sandeep
deaf
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 30. Nov 2005, 06:31
Dear Sonic Master,
That explanation of yours comes very close to the system type I decribed.I would like to know if you have ever heard a commercial product of the type you described in your first post on this thread.It would be interesting to hear your comments on a commercial product of this type.
Regards Deaf.
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#12 erstellt: 30. Nov 2005, 07:02
Dear Deaf,
There are few highend products of such kind in home audio market like the PMC, LINN, WISDOM AUDIO, etc... But the products are very expensive.

I had an experience with my relative`s system in Shimoga very long time ago like about 6 years ago it was just mind blowing. I dont remember the brand name.

Comming to the studio Monitors. Almost all of them are active monitors. Ive contact with such people and what they said is that no body is intrested in using Passive speakers system while recording. You can find lots of em with the studio installers. You can audition them.

Some of the studio monitors which are reputated in India.
Genelec, Dynaudio air, etc....
Ive talked to the Genelec dealer in India a active 5.1 setup will cost you about 2 lakhs.

Soon I am going to audition it and I will post the experiences over the forum.

best regards,
Sandeep
deaf
Stammgast
#13 erstellt: 30. Nov 2005, 14:50
Dear Sonic Master
Like you said very expensive.The studio monitors you are going to audition use cheap STK devices for amplification,hardly the kind of product we are talking about.The truth remains that passive is more practical,especially the minimonitor/powered subwoofer route.Please let me say this, I believe in active,and have heard all the brands you mentioned,the Wisdom is spectacularly musical,but is not a complete active solution,you have to choose the amplifiers,which during my auditioning were CJ premier 8 monoblocks,hardly cheap .I believe the future solutions are like the blue room speakers with their subs. Compact,newer materials,lifestyle(?),and very decent sound if well set up,or if fully active solutions are required,they will be like the beolab 3,very compact and powerful.
Regards Deaf
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#14 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 08:47
Ive mentioned about the Genelec speakers its said that they use some discrete components. But really do they use the STK? really? where did u get this information? Please tell me about this if you know anything further. What active crossover ic parts they are using in this Genelec? I

cheers,
Sandeep
deaf
Stammgast
#15 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 09:59
A recording engineer friend of mine saw one opened up .He gave me this info.I was quite taken aback too.I have no info on the x-over parts.
Regards Deaf
Krish
Stammgast
#16 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 10:45

Comming to the studio Monitors. Almost all of them are active monitors. Ive contact with such people and what they said is that no body is intrested in using Passive speakers system while recording. You can find lots of em with the studio installers. You can audition them.

Some of the studio monitors which are reputated in India.
Genelec, Dynaudio air, etc....
Ive talked to the Genelec dealer in India. a active 5.1 setup will cost you about 2 lakhs.


Studio monitors are good for use in a studio.They are designed for reproducing sound accurately.This is very important for the sound engineer putting the music together.

I'm not to sure whether they are such a good idea for home use.Wouldn't they be sonically fatiguing ?
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#17 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 11:23
Dear Krish,
The quality of actives will be outstanding and there are hell lots of difference in active and passive like mentioned above.

We are all struggling for fidelity. There is nothing wrong using active speakers in home env. Like the PMC.

best regards,
Sandeep
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#18 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 11:26
Dear Deaf,
Thanks alot for the info. I got good info on the Genelec speakers.

cheers,
Sandeep
Krish
Stammgast
#19 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 12:52
Sandeep,
I've auditioned Genelec and have heard studio monitors quite often.I'm not sure that I would ever consider buying them for all the obvious reasons

Cheers
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#20 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 14:06
But imaging a system with highend amplifiers hookin to the sophesticated drivers.

If Genelec uses the STK chips then i dont recommend it. Anyway krish i think you need to audition the PMC or LINN...

Dear Prithvi,
are u intrested in arranging a demo on Linn active speakers? Anyway you are the dealer for it, I think you can get it. Let me know your opinion.

cheers,
Sandeep
Indian_Duke
Ist häufiger hier
#21 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 14:50
Dear Sonic Master,

Dude, your postings are very confusing. First you post a long message (which looks like it was lifted straight from somewhere else on the net) extolling the virtues of active speakers like you listen to them day in and out. Then you say you have vast experience in designing them, but haven’t really heard any. Then you say you heard a cousin’s mind blowing system but forgot the name???

C’mon dude, make up your mind…….
Krish
Stammgast
#22 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 14:59

If Genelec uses the STK chips then i dont recommend it. Anyway krish i think you need to audition the PMC or LINN...



I own a pair of Linn Keilidhs, which BTW I can covert into an active pair by changing the crossover.
deaf
Stammgast
#23 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 15:02
Nice speakers Krish,greased lightinin'.
Regards Deaf
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#24 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 16:04
Dear Indian Duke,
I said Ive auditioned one very long time but i dont know the name of the system at that time i was too young. But like I said Ive been researching since very long time. I do really know the sonic qualities of many components etc... not to go in depth. Its alot.
My postings may be bit confusing but one thing I would like to tell you I am also involved in Hifi Design, Product design, 3D graphics, Visual Effects and Animation. My mind will be always switching all the above sectors. I need to look after all of em. So may posting may be confusing.

At present I am working on a commercial. At the same time i need to reply and check all of them and also i need to check the postings on

hififorum
cgtalk
3dbuzz
zbrushcentral
rendernode
cgtnetworks
diyaudio
and reviews at ecousitcs and

I am involved in designing of
Highend DAC
Highend Active crossovers
Gold plated cables
Study of Hypersonics in audio(above 20khz)
and lots of them
so my postings may be bit confusing...

cheers,
Sandeep
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#25 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 16:17
Dear Krish,
I would like to suggest you to one thing thats...
You can have the passive crossover externally
add and active crossover with some highend amps but
where can u get the active crossovers( Standalone )

The above system will have good flexibility either you can use it as passive or active depending upon ur application...

how can can u spend for active modification...?
cheers,
Sandeep
deaf
Stammgast
#26 erstellt: 01. Dez 2005, 18:17

Sonic_Master schrieb:
Dear Krish,
I would like to suggest you to one thing thats...
You can have the passive crossover externally
add and active crossover with some highend amps but
where can u get the active crossovers( Standalone )

The above system will have good flexibility either you can use it as passive or active depending upon ur application...

how can can u spend for active modification...?
cheers,
Sandeep

Dear Sandeep
Linn provides the active x-over module as an upgrade.As such Krish sees no problem on this front.
Regards Deaf
Prithvi
Stammgast
#27 erstellt: 02. Dez 2005, 05:56
Dear Deaf,
LINN makes Aktive x-overs only for their speakers & not others.
Rgds

PRithvi
Prithvi
Stammgast
#28 erstellt: 02. Dez 2005, 05:58
Dear Sandeep,

LINN makes Aktive x-overs only for their speakers & not others. The x-over points are all calculated especially for different loudspeakers like KATAN, NINKA, ESPEK etc.

When you ask LINN for Aktive x-overs then they will ask the model of their spks.
Rgds

PRithvi
deaf
Stammgast
#29 erstellt: 02. Dez 2005, 08:19

Prithvi schrieb:
Dear Deaf,
LINN makes Aktive x-overs only for their speakers & not others.
Rgds

PRithvi

Dear Prithvi,
By now you should know that I am aware of such details. .
Regards Deaf.
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#30 erstellt: 02. Dez 2005, 12:08
Dear krish,
If you want a active crossover module I can develop that for you. If you are really intrested then tell me... Its matter of weeks that I can develop that for you with

goldplated pcb
premium components etc..

Crossover points:
3.5khz 2nd order butterworth crossover with excellent phase response etc....

I will manage that in such a way that it will deliver the best an choosing the crossover points between 300Hz to 3khz is not good I can change the points and give it to you.

Let me know ur opinion

cheers,
Sandeep


Dear prithvi,
I had some traces of doubt when I posted that the active crossovers may be available..
yeah ur absolutely right active crossovers are designed according to the speakers. Some are fixed( Mostly fixed crossover frequencies).

cheers,
Sandeep
Indian_Duke
Ist häufiger hier
#31 erstellt: 02. Dez 2005, 12:11
Dear Sonic Master,

Please do pardon me, I had absolutely no idea I was addressing such a wizard.

Sir, I humbly stand corrected...
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#32 erstellt: 02. Dez 2005, 12:27
Dear krish,
I think these are the speakers that you own..
http://gon4.audiogon.com/i/a/f/1093052862.jpg

If your speakers are like above then it can be easily converted to active system

cheers,
Sandeep
Krish
Stammgast
#33 erstellt: 02. Dez 2005, 12:38

Dear krish,
If you want a active crossover module I can develop that for you. If you are really intrested then tell me... Its matter of weeks that I can develop that for you with

goldplated pcb
premium components etc..

Crossover points:
3.5khz 2nd order butterworth crossover with excellent phase response etc....

I will manage that in such a way that it will deliver the best an choosing the crossover points between 300Hz to 3khz is not good I can change the points and give it to you.

Let me know ur opinion

cheers,
Sandeep


Many thanks for your kind offer mate.



Dear krish,
I think these are the speakers that you own..
http://gon4.audiogon.com/i/a/f/1093052862.jpg

If your speakers are like above then it can be easily converted to active system

cheers,
Sandeep


Yes indeed, I own a humble pair just like these.

While your offer is tempting, I will have to take a pass as unfortunately, my somewhat finite resources demand deployment in other areas.

Thank you kindly once again.

Cheers
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#34 erstellt: 02. Dez 2005, 15:11
I dont know how much a Linn active speaker cost but I would recommend goin for it. I think Prithvi is dealing with this....
Prithvi at what price the Active speaker system from Linn starts? ( Please mention the model no so that some of the guys will check it over the Linn page)

cheers,
Sandeep
deaf
Stammgast
#35 erstellt: 02. Dez 2005, 15:20

Sonic_Master schrieb:
I dont know how much a Linn active speaker cost but I would recommend goin for it. I think Prithvi is dealing with this....
Prithvi at what price the Active speaker system from Linn starts? ( Please mention the model no so that some of the guys will check it over the Linn page)

cheers,
Sandeep


Yeah Prithvi, and the number of lifetimes we are allowed to pay for that system
Regards Deaf.
P.S you lucky goon I had my eyes set on Linn too.
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#36 erstellt: 03. Dez 2005, 18:15
I dont think you need to pay for number of life times.. I think for a system with the following specs like having

1. 6 Monoblock amplifiers with high current output which are capable of driving even at 2 ohms of load.
2. 100RMS/driver so total of 600RMS in the system.
3.3 way speaker system with 1 inch textile dome
7 inch midbass
10 inch woofers and all chambers are isolated
with excellent crossovers etc...

How much would be the cost of the system like this?
Guys any comments...
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#37 erstellt: 03. Dez 2005, 18:15
I dont think you need to pay for number of life times.. I think for a system with the following specs like having

1. 6 Monoblock amplifiers with high current output which are capable of driving even at 2 ohms of load.
2. 100RMS/driver so total of 600RMS in the system.
3.3 way speaker system with 1 inch textile dome
7 inch midbass
10 inch woofers and all chambers are isolated
with excellent crossovers etc...

How much would be the cost of the system like this?
Guys any comments...

cheers,
Sandeep
Arj
Inventar
#38 erstellt: 03. Dez 2005, 22:57
depends on the Brand !
ie the quality, warranty and reliability
deaf
Stammgast
#39 erstellt: 04. Dez 2005, 07:04
Dear Sonic Master
A fully active Linn Artikulat system, which is currently rated as one of the best playback systems(measurements back it up), costs Euro 32000 a pair.I don't know about you,but I will require a couple of lifetimes to pay for this one.
I know it is possible to make a DIY active system in Rs-32000 a pair,and quite good sounding too.Will it sound as good as some commercially available systems at 3-4 times the price?I think it is clearly possible.Just remember this,designing active electronics and designing the speaker part are two completely different sciences,I do not know where your true expertise is.Mine is clearly in the loudspeaker domain.If you think you can make a great product which is viable commercially,even on a made to order basis, you should go for it.
Regards Deaf.
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#40 erstellt: 04. Dez 2005, 07:29
Dear Deaf,
see I am an B.Tech guy in Electronics and communications. I do can handle the electronics section as well.. Its not a big problem for me. I know its hard to design a system like this...
check this pic that Ive designed an active speaker system...
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3wayactivesystem28it.jpg

Im just sending the information over the forum.

Just pm me if you want to know the specs of this speaker system since this forum is not intended for commercial use.

This system is not done in general its done with tons of hours and its not designed like DIY.

I make the things for professional use. I dont think its DIY.
its DIO(Do It for Others)

quality will be definitely outstanding. Far better than the Proac D15 speakers...

What price would be best for such system. Just like a friend tell me your opinion...

cheers,
Sandeep
Sonic_Master
Stammgast
#41 erstellt: 04. Dez 2005, 07:43
Dear Deaf,
well 32000 euros for a pair of active system? I mean

pair of active ARTIKULAT 350 with complete amplifiers and active crossover system !!!!!!!!

Just a stereo setup?

cheers,
Sandeep
deaf
Stammgast
#42 erstellt: 04. Dez 2005, 08:23
If you are keen on doing this kind of stuff,remember this, consistency is the key,in fit & finish,performance,parts inventory,packaging etc etc.These things, belive it or not, are more important than just sound quality.To get all this right, from the onset is impossible, as it is a 12-18 month learning curve.It is these costs that will decide the price of your product,and not the parts plus profit for a given sound quality.Assuming that it all fits the bill correctly
1)Try putting all the electronics in the speaker,as it is domestically acceptable,and also gets rid of amplifier case work cost.
2)Honestly,get rid of the 80's box above box look,its macho looks suits audiophiles ,but not the women in the house.Infact go for the bookshelf plus sub(s) idea I suggested earlier,you are already half way there.
3)Get inputs from a seasoned loudspeaker designer,with regards to bracing,driver isolation,materials and a host of other things,which belive me despite your commendable qualifications, you have never thought about.
Pricing,if you get everything in place,I think a retail of about 1.25-1.75 lakhs is not out of place.If however you get into reference territory then even 4-5 lacs is a fair asking price.
If you need any help let me know.
Regards Deaf.
Suche:
Das könnte Dich auch interessieren:
Active speakers
bobbybpl am 05.12.2010  –  Letzte Antwort am 10.12.2010  –  16 Beiträge
Active Monitors and Pro speakers
binoymehra am 19.08.2007  –  Letzte Antwort am 20.08.2007  –  5 Beiträge
Active Vs Passive Preamp
abhi.pani am 19.02.2009  –  Letzte Antwort am 23.02.2009  –  34 Beiträge
The most important and basic aspect of all.
Savyasaachi am 18.04.2010  –  Letzte Antwort am 23.04.2010  –  6 Beiträge
Suggestions Speaker stands and Subwoofer
kvish am 09.09.2006  –  Letzte Antwort am 20.09.2006  –  21 Beiträge
Active vs Passive speakers
Sonic_Master am 16.08.2005  –  Letzte Antwort am 24.08.2005  –  21 Beiträge
T amp V/s Gainclone v/s Nad ,Rotel, Marantz...
Savyasaachi am 13.02.2006  –  Letzte Antwort am 15.02.2006  –  8 Beiträge
Why amplifier power is important
SUB_BOSS am 10.07.2006  –  Letzte Antwort am 13.07.2006  –  48 Beiträge
High End Audio in India - still active forum?
SevenOranges am 21.08.2012  –  Letzte Antwort am 23.08.2012  –  2 Beiträge
Why is neutral/natural."Boring"
abhi.pani am 07.07.2006  –  Letzte Antwort am 10.07.2006  –  50 Beiträge
Foren Archiv
2005

Anzeige

Aktuelle Aktion

Partner Widget schließen

  • beyerdynamic Logo
  • DALI Logo
  • SAMSUNG Logo
  • TCL Logo

Forumsstatistik Widget schließen

  • Registrierte Mitglieder925.669 ( Heute: )
  • Neuestes Mitglied
  • Gesamtzahl an Themen1.550.888
  • Gesamtzahl an Beiträgen21.533.214

Hersteller in diesem Thread Widget schließen