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Power Cord : The most important cable in a hifi setup ?

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Autor
Beitrag
abhi.pani
Inventar
#1 erstellt: 14. Okt 2010, 20:44
DISCLAIMER : We are not discussing absolute cost no object systems where the best matching cables are used to connect each link in the chain.


There are many theories on which is the most important cable in a hifi setup.

1. A popular notion is, the first analog interconnect in the chain is the most important cable in the chain as it affects the signature most.

2. Another theory says the first interconnect whether analog or digital is the most important cable in the chain.

3. Since speakers are the most important component in a system and that is the device which reproduces the music, speaker cable is the most important cable as that is the first cable from the speaker's perspective.

4. Then there is a belief that power cord should be the first one to be addressed as that affects the way a signal is generated which is much more fundamental in nature compared to IC or speaker cable which only help in transmitting a signal.

Interestingly the 4th theory have less takers than the first three theories in my observation. I dont know why though. Personally, off late I have become a firm believer of the power cord theory. I admit that I used to give a lot more weight-age to interconnects compared to power cords but slowly my opinion has transformed. Somehow I hear a very fundamental difference in performance of my system with change of power cords whereas with ICs and speaker cables it is more superficial. They are all important and have to be addressed but when one has to divide his time, money and attention to wire up his setup for best performance, should power cord be given highest priority ?

Would love to know what others have experienced in this regard. There is an interesting article here by Stereophile:
http://blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2008/101108nordost/

I would quote a few lines from this article which has been said by Nordost's Lars Kristensen:


Nordost's Lars Kristensen performed a most interesting experiment; demonstrating the difference that a single Nordost Odin power cord can make on an entire system. Simply switching the cord from the wall receptacle between Valhalla ($2500) and Odin completely transformed the sound of the entire system.

According to Lars, introducing a single Odin power cord into a system makes a far significant difference than the change of interconnects. Lars claims that even a system equipped with Nordost's far more modestly priced Blue Heaven can sound better than a system entirely wired with Valhalla when you change the initial power cable to Odin.


That is a pretty interesting statement, I am not taking every word of this article on its face value but overall there seems to be some food for thought .


[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 15. Okt 2010, 05:38 bearbeitet]
Manek
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 15. Okt 2010, 05:56
I would rather put my money on a power conditioner or a passive filtering system than just a cord.

Manek
abhi.pani
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 15. Okt 2010, 08:18

I would rather put my money on a power conditioner or a passive filtering system than just a cord.

Manek, I always knew this is coming. Ultimately if you are of the opinion that power should be addressed before any other cable tweak, I still see you in the 4th camp.

However I would like to point out, I knowingly did not bring in power conditioners and filters in my initial post. Not that I dont believe in them but IMO even they do things fundamentally different from a power cord.

While a power conditioner purifies power it has no role in delivering the power to the component. It is the power cord which interacts with the power supply of the component and decides the way instantaneous power is delivered to an equipment. On the other hand a good power cord does some amount of conditioning as well. Basically having a good power filter at the beginning does not make the power cords redundant in my experience.

In this discussion I have tried to keep it simple by talking about cables only.


[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 15. Okt 2010, 08:19 bearbeitet]
bhagwan69
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 15. Okt 2010, 09:33
[quote="abhi.pani"][b]DISCLAIMER : We are not discussing absolute cost no object systems where the best matching cables are used to connect each link in the chain.
[/b]
[b]Lars claims that even a system equipped with Nordost's far more modestly priced Blue Heaven can sound better than a system entirely wired with Valhalla when you change the initial power cable to Odin.[/b] [/quote]
[/quote]
Can I comment ?
I find this a bit strange - do not discuss cost no object & the quote is for the Nordost Odin !
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#5 erstellt: 15. Okt 2010, 13:25
Manek said:


I would rather put my money on a power conditioner or a passive filtering system than just a cord.


I guess I disagree.

In my Experience {not IMHO ! } the sound of active and passive power conditioners (irrespective of price, and yes, even for complete power regenerators) is ALWAYS dependent on its input Power cord ...

I use a 8 way Shunyata Hydra, with separate feeds for analog and digital devices from the Hydra, but the Python Power cord to the Shunyata makes All the diff...
abhi.pani
Inventar
#6 erstellt: 15. Okt 2010, 13:51
[quote]Can I comment ?
I find this a bit strange - do not discuss cost no object & the quote is for the Nordost Odin !
[/quote]

Bhagwan,
The drift is like this, Lars says instead of using all Valhalla in a system, one would do better by replacing them with modest Blue Heaven cables and use the savings to buy an Odin power cord and place it right at the beginning of the chain.
So we are still looking at working out the best combination within a [b]budget[/b].

A cost no object system is assumed to be anyway wired with all Odins or something of that calibre.


[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 15. Okt 2010, 13:53 bearbeitet]
abhi.pani
Inventar
#7 erstellt: 15. Okt 2010, 13:58

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I use a 8 way Shunyata Hydra, with separate feeds for analog and digital devices from the Hydra, but the Python Power cord to the Shunyata makes All the diff...


That is very similar to what Lars is trying to say, the best power cord right at the beginning of the chain!!
bhagwan69
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 15. Okt 2010, 16:25
Yes;

I too use my best P/C to feed the RTP-4
i.e. The Bertram Ultima Ref.
It makes a huge difference....

I am on that side of the fence that believes power cords make a huge diff.....

p.s. All my PLMM's are sold. I do not use any Transparent Audio Power Cords anymore..
abhi.pani
Inventar
#9 erstellt: 15. Okt 2010, 19:09

bhagwan69 schrieb:


I am on that side of the fence that believes power cords make a huge diff..... 8)


Do you think they are more important than your interconnects ?
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#10 erstellt: 16. Okt 2010, 04:25

Manek schrieb:
I would rather put my money on a power conditioner or a passive filtering system than just a cord.

Manek


I'm afraid that I would have to disagree too as I have always found that any active or passive power conditioner to choke the entire system/rob the entire system of its dynamics. All power conditioners are thus banished from my system forever.
Now, the story is remarkably different when it comes to AC power regenerators (PS Audio ,Pure Power, Exact Power, etc).
(actually I do have a power conditioner in my system but it feeds the AC power regenerator such that the effect of power conditioner on the sonics is null & void).
IMHO & experience, you'd be better off taking a good power cord directly to the mains outlet.....
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 16. Okt 2010, 04:29

abhi.pani schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb:


I am on that side of the fence that believes power cords make a huge diff..... 8)


Do you think they are more important than your interconnects ?


In a way yes, you 1st take care of the AC power & then worry about the interconnects.

-w-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-y- back when all of just joined this forum, we discussed what was the order of optimizing one's system & I clearly remember my writing (& many others 2nded this) that you 1st take care of the AC power before you go any further.
Today, you are asking the same question! The answer is the same - you 1st take care of the AC power before you go any further. It hasn't changed even tho' much time has passed.
bhagwan69
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 16. Okt 2010, 05:33
I too used to use a UIT & Servo Stabi many years back & then 'threw' it out. It does 'limit' the dynamics & crescendos, so Active Conditioning, I am against.
Power Re-Generation, the Jury is still out....

However, in 1 case I have found that the Acoustic Revive Power Cord, works best when it is connected through the RTP's
[passive device] !
I do not know why, but the power cord becomes a different 'animal' when it is wired through the RTP-4 rather than 'direct' !
I do not have a 'scientific' explanation, if B-Wala or any other could give to me an engineers point of view on this, I would truly appreciate it...
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#13 erstellt: 16. Okt 2010, 06:10
abhi.pani wrote:


Do you think they ( power Cords ) are more important than your interconnects ?


NO WAY !

I am speaking from my practical experience.

When I bought my present system, ( Gamut Monoblocks ) I was told by the Gamut Expert ( who also sold me the system ) that the Gamut Balanced interconnect (bundled with the system I bought) were Ideal, and would yield the best sound. I was told Not to waste time and money on interconnects, since I had the Gamut interconnects.

For MONTHS I tried various tweaks, power cords and even CD players and pre-amps. The system still sounded muddy, and I refused to accept that REVEL's Top-of-the -line speakers of some years ago, could have been designed with such signature sound.

Bhagwan69 gave me a pair of Argento interconnects to try, and THAT was the silver bullet tat transformed my system, providing resolution and removing Tons of Grunge that the (Free) Gamut interconnects yielded.

My conclusion, even FREE, the Gamut Interconnects were the WORST Value For Money item in my set up, causing me frustration, and spoiling my system sound for several months.

My suggestion - No matter WHAT any audio Guru (most are self proclaimed) tells you, try different audio interconnects. They will make the Largest impact in your existing setup, other than Room placement and optimisation.
Arj
Inventar
#14 erstellt: 16. Okt 2010, 08:00

abhi.pani schrieb:


4. Then there is a belief that power cord should be the first one to be addressed as that affects the way a signal is generated which is much more fundamental in nature compared to IC or speaker cable which only help in transmitting a signal.


My experience :
Power - Yes
Power Chord maybe but not the right approach


As mentioned by so many , there is no doubt that the quality of power is a very important factor and Power chord is just one way (and not the best) of getting the power right.

while a power-chord impact on the sound is not disputed what is does to the imput feed is very confusing.
Eg, in my system, the powerchord that works great on the transport works bad on the Dac while there is minimal impact on my amp.
The same power chord on abhis sytem works differently a good power chord in one house/system cannot be bad in another house system !

I really tend to think along B'walla/ Maneks view that the input power is the factor to really control and untill we do that talk of power chord improving (* vis a vis impacting) does not make sense.. in fact it makes as much sense as trying to make a neutral system out of a already coloured cd player via interconnects !

so i would put it that upto a certain resonable degree, Quality power is definitely more important than ICs, but an IC , to me , is more important than a power chord


[Beitrag von Arj am 16. Okt 2010, 08:03 bearbeitet]
SWITCH-IT-ON
Ist häufiger hier
#15 erstellt: 29. Okt 2010, 11:18
Hello all,

This post is where i can contribute quite substantially. My audio journey started 10 years ago with a second-hand amplifier (Sansui) and Akai speakers. Naturally, over the years, my learning and interest grew and thus the current level of playback. My most recent (last) new purchase has been 4 (four), Transparent Reference level MM2 power-cords, 875 USD each (list). To all my fellow audiophiles, how I wish, these were the FIRST things I bought four or five years ago before I got into serious Hifi. The level of change that these cords have brought to my system is staggering. I can honestly say that i would have not changed (upgraded) "two" sets of speakers that I have done because of the sound that I though was lacking "in" them. The cords have brought the solidity in bass, clarity in the treble range and lastly, the impactful midbass that I have been struggling with. It is unfortunate that i cannot afford the Transparent MM2 top-of-the-line P.C. at 2000 USD list. I would have bought them asap if give a chance. They make such a positive difference.

The only problem is the mind-set (same for me too). How do we buy a lesser speaker or amp or cd player to balance the cash for expensive P.C. The common thought is to go for the Powercord upgrade the last. As said earlier, please get this chain to near max the first!!!
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#16 erstellt: 30. Okt 2010, 05:42
S-I-O that is a HUGE endorsement for Power cords... !

What is your cal on which makes a greater change to the sound ... Power Cords or Interconnects ?
abhi.pani
Inventar
#17 erstellt: 30. Okt 2010, 07:17

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:
Hello all,

This post is where i can contribute quite substantially. My audio journey started 10 years ago with a second-hand amplifier (Sansui) and Akai speakers. Naturally, over the years, my learning and interest grew and thus the current level of playback. My most recent (last) new purchase has been 4 (four), Transparent Reference level MM2 power-cords, 875 USD each (list). To all my fellow audiophiles, how I wish, these were the FIRST things I bought four or five years ago before I got into serious Hifi. The level of change that these cords have brought to my system is staggering. I can honestly say that i would have not changed (upgraded) "two" sets of speakers that I have done because of the sound that I though was lacking "in" them. The cords have brought the solidity in bass, clarity in the treble range and lastly, the impactful midbass that I have been struggling with. It is unfortunate that i cannot afford the Transparent MM2 top-of-the-line P.C. at 2000 USD list. I would have bought them asap if give a chance. They make such a positive difference.

The only problem is the mind-set (same for me too). How do we buy a lesser speaker or amp or cd player to balance the cash for expensive P.C. The common thought is to go for the Powercord upgrade the last. As said earlier, please get this chain to near max the first!!!


Switch-it-on thats an excellent post. I have some questions

1. What power cords were you using before the Transparent ?

2. Do you use any power conditioning ? If yes, how would you compare the impact of power cord versus the power conditioner.

3. Then the original curiosity, interconnects first or power cords first ?
SWITCH-IT-ON
Ist häufiger hier
#18 erstellt: 30. Okt 2010, 13:45
Hi,

Please donot mistake my posting as an advert. for transparent power-cords. Yes, I did try many and all of them brought some sonic signature along with them... not all of it good, i may add. However, these top line Transparents are special. They are supremely musical. The extra information that my setup generated was quite stunning, to the extent that my well established position had to be altered by 2.25 inches on each side. The width grew by 4.50 inches to balance out "what i was missing" I am now playing at 100 1/2 inches, tweeter to tweeter. Also, through experience, I have found that they are not system fussy. Thus, buying them blind is not a risk at all. 4 of us are using them in Mumbai and all varied setups.

Abhi, I was using the "super" level of transparent earlier... almost 4 years and PS audio mid-level. As a fellow audiophile, i can impart this knowledge that this is a very good product.

Amp nut, to start with, yes, my Argento I.Cs changed my sound dramatically, you heard it to. However, all my previous upgrades only made real and total sense once they got the correct juice. They all have taken a leap. Thus my suggestion.

Abhi, I have not experimented with conditioning at all.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#19 erstellt: 30. Okt 2010, 20:19

SWITCH-IT-ON schrieb:
Hi,

Please donot mistake my posting as an advert. for transparent power-cords. Yes, I did try many and all of them brought some sonic signature along with them... not all of it good, i may add. However, these top line Transparents are special. They are supremely musical. The extra information that my setup generated was quite stunning, to the extent that my well established position had to be altered by 2.25 inches on each side. The width grew by 4.50 inches to balance out "what i was missing" I am now playing at 100 1/2 inches, tweeter to tweeter. Also, through experience, I have found that they are not system fussy. Thus, buying them blind is not a risk at all. 4 of us are using them in Mumbai and all varied setups.

Abhi, I was using the "super" level of transparent earlier... almost 4 years and PS audio mid-level. As a fellow audiophile, i can impart this knowledge that this is a very good product.

Amp nut, to start with, yes, my Argento I.Cs changed my sound dramatically, you heard it to. However, all my previous upgrades only made real and total sense once they got the correct juice. They all have taken a leap. Thus my suggestion.

Abhi, I have not experimented with conditioning at all.


This was exactly where I was coming from. When the signal generation process gets better there is something very fundamental that improves.

I cannot disagree with Amp_Nut and Arj that at the end even power cords bring in a signature, they absolutely do, like any other cable in the chain. But then every accessory does something to the sound, e.g Power conditioning, Isolation, room treatment, Schumann Resonators etc. On a broader scale they all equalize sound. Still, dont we treat them as separate issues ? Some start with room treatment and some with power conditioning. Similarly when talking about cables, I do think Power cable is a different subject compared to interconnects and spk cables. Hence my question, where would you start ?

As far as power conditioning is concerned, it is again a different subject with lots of varied opinions among audiophiles. One thing is, there is no power conditioning device devised yet which can make good power cords redundant. Shunyata Research has come out with yet another explanation of why this is the case:
http://www.shunyata.com/Content/DTCD-indepth.html

In layman terms, I suppose they are trying to say, it is not just how pure is the power that matters but also how is that power delivered to the power supply of the equipment.


[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 30. Okt 2010, 20:25 bearbeitet]
abhi.pani
Inventar
#20 erstellt: 30. Okt 2010, 20:37
Amp_Nut, One question, have you tried higher end power cords like the Transparent PLMM, Argento Flow and the likes in your system ? If yes, what was your observation ?
I ask this because your Argento interconnects are absolute reference grade where as your Shunyata and Cardas power cord are still pretty much at mid-fi level by comparison, so it is quite evident that the effect of Argento would be far more substantial compared to the power cords (just my guess).
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#21 erstellt: 31. Okt 2010, 08:15
Abhi,pani, no I have not tried Argento or the Transparent PLMM, I wouyld certainly like to hear them in my system.

As always, Bhagwan69 was ready to bring his power cords to my place for a listen, but they have the European plugs, while my system uses US plugs... :-(

My Shunyata Hydra uses a Python Power Cord to feel if from the source (an all important location). Though old it listed for approx US $ 900.

The Cardas Golden power cord that feed my CD player is approx US $ 600.

Both are faily well respected products, not to mention the Hydra.

Hence though these products are hardly reference quality, they are not bad, even though subjective opinions ( especially for the Cardas ) may vary !

Hope I can get a Transparent PLMM or Argento Flow for a listen in my system ...

Anyone out that who can offer me a half hour listen ?

(I have always believed that Power Cords impact sound quality.... earlier than some on this forum, Infact I do remember one forum member visited my place years ago, and after hearing ... but not necessarily liking .... my Cardas feeding my old Denon 2900 CD player remarked, that he never believed in power cords, but after hearing the Cardas could not deny that they impact the sound quality )
bhagwan69
Inventar
#22 erstellt: 02. Nov 2010, 12:21

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Abhi,pani, no I have not tried Argento or the Transparent PLMM, I wouyld certainly like to hear them in my system.

As always, Bhagwan69 was ready to bring his power cords to my place for a listen, but they have the European plugs, while my system uses US plugs... :-(

My Shunyata Hydra uses a Python Power Cord to feel if from the source (an all important location). Though old it listed for approx US $ 900.

The Cardas Golden power cord that feed my CD player is approx US $ 600.

Both are faily well respected products, not to mention the Hydra.

Hence though these products are hardly reference quality, they are not bad, even though subjective opinions ( especially for the Cardas ) may vary !

Hope I can get a Transparent PLMM or Argento Flow for a listen in my system ...

Anyone out that who can offer me a half hour listen ?

(I have always believed that Power Cords impact sound quality.... earlier than some on this forum, Infact I do remember one forum member visited my place years ago, and after hearing ... but not necessarily liking .... my Cardas feeding my old Denon 2900 CD player remarked, that he never believed in power cords, but after hearing the Cardas could not deny that they impact the sound quality )


All my PLMM's are sold.
My Argento Serenity Power Cord too is sold.

Hence, I cannot offer this for audition - I am sorry.

I now use, Bertram Ultima Ref & Echole Obsession Power Cords along with Silencable Symphony - all are Euro Schuko.

Any person with euro receptors is welcome to borrow my cords to try...
bhagwan69
Inventar
#23 erstellt: 02. Nov 2010, 12:32

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hope I can get a Transparent PLMM or Argento Flow for a listen in my system ...
Anyone out that who can offer me a half hour listen ?


@AN - possible.

SBFX has 4 PLMM's & 2 are 'spare' [borrow them]
Switch it on too has 3 power cords from Transparent - 1 step below the PLMM.

Call them & borrow the power cords & do some experiment.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#24 erstellt: 02. Nov 2010, 12:47
Thanks for the pointers, Bhagwan69.

My audio system became re-operational last night, but still has TONS of junk in it from other room. (The music system was Mothballed to fit a split AC in the room, and the room was loaded with stuff from other rooms that are under renovation ).

Let all this settle down, and I will really try to get a listen, because I am convinced that a Great power cord can improve my CD player sound, in the direction I want ...
abhi.pani
Inventar
#25 erstellt: 06. Nov 2010, 07:42

Amp_Nut schrieb:
I am convinced that a Great power cord can improve my CD player sound, in the direction I want ...


Please do not underestimate your preamp and power amps AN .

In my setup the transport and the power amp displays almost equal amount of differences and impact on the final sound. While on the transport the power cords have higher impact in the areas of tone, soundstaging (width, depth, accuracy) and also extension (mostly treble), on the power amp it is drive, authority, control (over the entire spectrum), LF extension, soundstage (more about forward vs relaxed) and also tone. In both cases the differences are massive. Yes, if I have the option of using only one good power cord, I would put it on my transport.


[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 06. Nov 2010, 07:46 bearbeitet]
Arj
Inventar
#26 erstellt: 22. Dez 2010, 11:50
I had an audio epiphany of sorts last week on this subject

On a hunch , and after quite a few months of deliberation, i got myself an AC regenerator by Monarchy Audio

it is limited to 100W output(max 150), has only 2 sockets and is basically and simply a very high quality amplifier whose input is a pure sinewave from a high quality Clock which it amplifies.

you can change the frequency from 50-400 Hz and the power from 220 - 240 V. Also alternatvely can be used as a 230-110v stepdown regenerator as well.

Since the power limit is low, it can only be used with Source components and maybe SETs.

What it does to the sound was nothing short of remarkable in my setup. And while the impact of powerchords on my source is pretty high , the moment I put it in I had visible improvements in
- Clarity of sound (not sharpening and no loss in musicality) improved
- Bass was more clealy defined and I had to play around with my Subwoofer integeration as well
- Vocals also got cleaned up and became much more natural sounding (although i was surprised at this...i thought they sounded very good earlier !)
- my soundstage went wider and deeper with a better sense of air. Surprisingly, XRCDs which i thought were artificial sounding earlier, sounded much better


And most importantly I can play music at much higher volumes and there is no sound of harshness. My background noise had anyway reduced with a very effective Rack which was built for me by Mr Murty, this one took it to a different level altogether as all grunge which i did not even realise was there just went away.

all this for the price of a good Powerchord

On the other hand, There is an impact of powerchords from outlet to the regenerator input which shows this is not completely dissociated from input power quality unlike much more expensive products...but for this price it is definitely a very good option.


[Beitrag von Arj am 23. Dez 2010, 08:29 bearbeitet]
particleman
Stammgast
#27 erstellt: 22. Dez 2010, 13:45
That sounds rather promising. Does the unit run very hot (if not, do you employ air conditioning)? Do you know if there is a model that accepts Schuko plugs?
Arj
Inventar
#28 erstellt: 22. Dez 2010, 14:31
I do not know about the Schuko..but since it seems made to order, it might be possible.

it has a fan which is temperature sensitive. apparently if loaded near about 100W it does heat up and the fan comes on.
I have not seen this yet ..but Bangalore is cold these days and doubt if my system takes over 45W (and i do not have an AC in this room)


[Beitrag von Arj am 22. Dez 2010, 14:32 bearbeitet]
square_wave
Inventar
#29 erstellt: 22. Dez 2010, 15:11
@Arj,

I assume you are using this with the dac and transport.

Very interesting product ! I have seen this before. Did you pick it up new ?
abhi.pani
Inventar
#30 erstellt: 22. Dez 2010, 15:55
I had the opportunity to listen to this regenerator at Arj's place. Two things that struck me:

1. Music sounded much more energetic and alive without sounding forward. The energy was also accompanied by better timing and pace. Removing the regenerator made the system sounding sleepy.

2. Definition...every instrument, be it the snare or the flute gained significantly in definition. It sounded more real. Removing the regenerator added a greyish fuzz (which we never knew was there before the addition of the regen) around the same instruments making it sound somewhat expanded with fuzzy outlines. Some people confuse that fuzzy outline with air around instruments, this regenerator could be an ear opener for them to differentiate air from grunge.

I liked this device a lot.

One of my key take away from this auditioning was, cables are not as much of a culprit as I thought they were. Especially interconnects and speaker cables. Using a good mid level IC and speaker cable with top quality power being fed to the equipments should take ones system very close to its potential (the vice versa though may not be true).


[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 22. Dez 2010, 15:58 bearbeitet]
Arj
Inventar
#31 erstellt: 22. Dez 2010, 16:21
@Square_Wave. yup bought it direct from them..Shipping is the killer.

I think AP summarized it very well..especially regarding the air around instruments as well as the Communication of the Rhythm of music.
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#32 erstellt: 22. Dez 2010, 20:00

bombaywalla schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb:


I am on that side of the fence that believes power cords make a huge diff..... 8)


Do you think they are more important than your interconnects ?


In a way yes, you 1st take care of the AC power & then worry about the interconnects.

-w-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-y- back when all of just joined this forum, we discussed what was the order of optimizing one's system & I clearly remember my writing (& many others 2nded this) that you 1st take care of the AC power before you go any further.
Today, you are asking the same question! The answer is the same - you 1st take care of the AC power before you go any further. It hasn't changed even tho' much time has passed. ;)



abhi.pani schrieb:

I liked this device a lot.

One of my key take away from this auditioning was, cables are not as much of a culprit as I thought they were. Especially interconnects and speaker cables. Using a good mid level IC and speaker cable with top quality power being fed to the equipments should take ones system very close to its potential (the vice versa though may not be true).


alright!!!! you guys are finally listening.
I've copied my post from Oct 16, 2010 above where I wrote EXACTLY that - take care of the AC power & a LOT of the music will fall into place.
In that time-frame Abhi was splitting hair length-wise: is the power cord more important than interconnects? or it is vice-versa? Or, do speaker cables take the #1 importance position? Today, you are wiser thanx to Arj...........
NOW you have experienced it for yourself & NOW you realize that you might have been turning a blind eye to some good advice OR thinking just good the imparted advice might have been .
Good step taken by Arj - well done. Hopefully the rest of that gang will follow.....

Say it 5 times in succession:
Take care of the AC power FIRST - do NOT underestimate its gains.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#33 erstellt: 22. Dez 2010, 21:40
Bombaywalla, in a way I agree with you that the importance of quality AC was somewhat underestimated by some of us in the gang ( as you call it) but there were some reasons:

1. Unavailability of choices : The only two products known to me that was available in India and had some endorsement from audiophiles were the Purepower and APC online UPS.

2. Cost : Purepower requires a very significant investment. Unlike cables, the chances of one getting a used purepower for reasonable amount is very less, hence the cost of experimenting with AC regenerators was always prohibitive.

3. Lack of Education: In Bangalore I have seen/heard only two setups where there is any power conditioning, hence there is very little discussion on power among most audiophiles here. It is just on and off.

A device like Monarchy which is well designed (with audio in mind) and cost effective was something that was needed to trigger a wave in this direction. Now that Arj has it, more will follow .
bhagwan69
Inventar
#34 erstellt: 23. Dez 2010, 05:35
[quote="abhi.pani"
1. Unavailability of choices : The only two products known to me that was available in India and had some endorsement from audiophiles were the [b]Purepower[/b] and APC online UPS.

2. Cost : [b]Purepower requires a very significant investment. [/b]Unlike cables, the chances of one getting a used purepower for reasonable amount is very less, hence the cost of experimenting with AC regenerators was always prohibitive.

3. Lack of Education: In Bangalore I have seen/heard only two setups where there is any power conditioning, hence there is very little discussion on power among most audiophiles here. It is just on and off.

A device like Monarchy which is well designed (with audio in mind) and cost effective was something that was needed to trigger a wave in this direction. Now that Arj has it, more will follow .[/quote]

Sir,

I have a PP 2000 for sale - Black - Euro Schuko @ Rs. 115/- !!

It is as cheap as 2 average power cords...

You have heard it & know how good it actually is....

The 'ball is in your court' !!

Cheers !!
Shahrukh
Inventar
#35 erstellt: 23. Dez 2010, 10:20

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Sir,

I have a PP 2000 for sale - Black - Euro Schuko @ Rs. 115/- !!



You might wanna add the requisite number of zeros after that figure. I remember a funny incident on another forum where a member was ready to buy your product for the same 3 figure sum you quoted.
square_wave
Inventar
#36 erstellt: 23. Dez 2010, 13:45

Shahrukh schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Sir,

I have a PP 2000 for sale - Black - Euro Schuko @ Rs. 115/- !!



You might wanna add the requisite number of zeros after that figure. I remember a funny incident on another forum where a member was ready to buy your product for the same 3 figure sum you quoted. ;)


Yup. Especially when one says it is the equivalant of two power cords only

57k for power cord ! No wonder the cable sellers drive around in Porsches
Arj
Inventar
#37 erstellt: 23. Dez 2010, 13:48

square_wave schrieb:

57k for power cord ! No wonder the cable sellers drive around in Porsches

hey..even porsche sellers drive around in Porsches !

But if a cell phone which one uses only for 2-3 years and lose almost the entire value on which can cost upto that much ..why not a powerchord which you can use for a lot more and if required sell off for 1/2 the price at least

Although i may never ever own a powerchord that expensive, in the end it is about what it does to the sound ..if a 57K Powerchord improves the sound more than a 57K additional on a cd player, i would feel it is well worth the improvement !


[Beitrag von Arj am 23. Dez 2010, 13:52 bearbeitet]
abhi.pani
Inventar
#38 erstellt: 23. Dez 2010, 14:50

Shahrukh schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Sir,

I have a PP 2000 for sale - Black - Euro Schuko @ Rs. 115/- !!



You might wanna add the requisite number of zeros after that figure. I remember a funny incident on another forum where a member was ready to buy your product for the same 3 figure sum you quoted. ;)



I can only imagine Bhagwan's reaction
bhagwan69
Inventar
#39 erstellt: 23. Dez 2010, 15:19

square_wave schrieb:

Shahrukh schrieb:

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Sir,

I have a PP 2000 for sale - Black - Euro Schuko @ Rs. 115/- !!



You might wanna add the requisite number of zeros after that figure. I remember a funny incident on another forum where a member was ready to buy your product for the same 3 figure sum you quoted. ;)


Yup. Especially when one says it is the equivalant of two power cords only

57k for power cord ! No wonder the cable sellers drive around in Porsches


Sir,
That is a 'cheaper' cord. I just sold 4 of them off;
Transparent Audio PLMM. I do not know if TA owners drive in 911's ??? I have never met them. ... ...
My current power cords are @ 4/- K Euro a piece - SilenCable - Symphony [on the power amps] X 2 [my amps are monos] & I use Bertram & Echoles on the 'front' end & each are @ 5/- Euro [Bertram] & 6/- K US [Echole Obsession]
So in the right light - the PP - 2000 is a 'cheaper' solution.
Besides, the Acoustic Revive - RTP-4 [passive device] alone has a price of US $'s 2500/- ++ I think....This I use on the front end part of the audio chain...
bhagwan69
Inventar
#40 erstellt: 23. Dez 2010, 15:29

Arj schrieb:

square_wave schrieb:

57k for power cord ! No wonder the cable sellers drive around in Porsches

hey..even porsche sellers drive around in Porsches !

But if a cell phone which one uses only for 2-3 years and lose almost the entire value on which can cost upto that much ..why not a powerchord which you can use for a lot more and if required sell off for 1/2 the price at least

Although i may never ever own a powerchord that expensive, in the end it is about what it does to the sound ..if a 57K Powerchord improves the sound more than a 57K additional on a cd player, i would feel it is well worth the improvement !


Superbly framed....
Excellent point of view...

Power Cords do make a huge change...

BTW - Did you guys listen to the Bertram Model 8 Speaker Cable ?
It has been in Bangalore for the past 2 weeks....
Just 'borrow' it & listen to it....
I would love to know what a 400/- K speaker cable can do in your set ups - please... Shall be appreciated...
Square Wave - you too must go & listen & let me know, if there is a change ? Better or Worse ? Basically there is no 'commercial' angle. Just listen & comment.

The chance to listen to a cable of that level in your own home does exist, so if I was in your place, I would jump @ the chance....

How I wish, some one were ready to lend to me an OPUS Cable from Transparent Audio - just to evaluate....but alas....
msb1
Stammgast
#41 erstellt: 25. Dez 2010, 10:37
The list price of the PLMM's that I use is approx. $2K which is roughly the same as the PP.

I am of the belief that the PP is more VFM and does more than any power cord I have tried, in my setup.

Hence, I feel that the PP + decent power cords (PS audio, etc.) sound better than exotic cords priced more than an average setup, connected direct.

For some reason it does not work for Bhagwan and is a super deal for anyone looking to take their setup up a few notches.

I use the PP with my PC, DAC and Preamp. Power amps are direct as the PP cannot handle the load of both Canasya's with everything else.

IMHO/YMMV/ETC.


[Beitrag von msb1 am 25. Dez 2010, 10:41 bearbeitet]
Arj
Inventar
#42 erstellt: 25. Dez 2010, 10:47

bhagwan69 schrieb:

BTW - Did you guys listen to the Bertram Model 8 Speaker Cable ?
It has been in Bangalore for the past 2 weeks....
Just 'borrow' it & listen to it....
I would love to know what a 400/- K speaker cable can do in your set ups - please... Shall be appreciated...
Square Wave - you too must go & listen & let me know, if there is a change ? Better or Worse ? Basically there is no 'commercial' angle. Just listen & comment.

The chance to listen to a cable of that level in your own home does exist, so if I was in your place, I would jump @ the chance....

How I wish, some one were ready to lend to me an OPUS Cable from Transparent Audio - just to evaluate....but alas....
:cut

hi, bhagwan, Very Sadly, there was too little time to coordinate a pickup -listen-return .. the prospect was really tempting though !
msb1
Stammgast
#43 erstellt: 25. Dez 2010, 11:21
BTW, for those interested, my power config. is as under:

2 Dedicated lines using 8mm Finolex cable direct from distribution box hardwired to 2 DIY filter circuits in one box. (similar to: http://www.diycable....21&products_id=536). I don't use the inductors.

One circuit feeds the power amps and one the rest of the setup via the PP. Both have high quality US type receptacles.

PP uses a Fusion Predator 20A Power cord.
PC uses a Harmonic Tech Pro AC-10 cord (old cord).
DAC + Preamp use Transparent PLMM cords (got these before I got the PP).
Power amps use PS Audio prefectwave AC10 cords.
M2Tech EVO is battery powered.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#44 erstellt: 25. Dez 2010, 17:16
Hi msb,
How is PS Audio AC-10 power cord ? I was considering it some time back power my power amp.
msb1
Stammgast
#45 erstellt: 25. Dez 2010, 17:21

abhi.pani schrieb:
Hi msb,
How is PS Audio AC-10 power cord ? I was considering it some time back power my power amp.


I like it. Very well built and does well with the Canasya's.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#46 erstellt: 25. Dez 2010, 19:50
Thanks msb, I am looking for a good power cord for my power amp, this could be good candidate.
Arj
Inventar
#47 erstellt: 25. Dez 2010, 20:05
Hi MSB, i remember you upgrading from the 1050i to the 2000 PP. since you are using it only for the source, do you see any improvement between the two ?
msb1
Stammgast
#48 erstellt: 26. Dez 2010, 13:14

Arj schrieb:
Hi MSB, i remember you upgrading from the 1050i to the 2000 PP. since you are using it only for the source, do you see any improvement between the two ?


Hi,
The PP2000 is supposed to be sonically better than the 1050i from what I've read. I wasn't able to do a proper A/B as I upgraded to the PP whilst changing amps so I couldn't compare them with the same equipment.

I upgraded to the 2000 because of the Canasya's but sadly, it cant handle them.


[Beitrag von msb1 am 26. Dez 2010, 13:16 bearbeitet]
Arj
Inventar
#49 erstellt: 05. Jan 2011, 06:53
Thanks MSB !

BTW, there is a Great thread on regenerators here at the Good sound club (aka Romythecat)

this is about his experiences with Regenerators andd more specifically Purepower.


there are many many pages to read though ! and he fluctuates in his view all over the place based on hos experiences..but seems to be a genuine guy


[Beitrag von Arj am 05. Jan 2011, 06:54 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#50 erstellt: 06. Jan 2011, 14:33
Nice pointer, Arj.

Interestingly, I identified with a 'wandering' experience.

Some weeks ago, Bhagwan69 brought over an Acoustic Revive ( Japan) Power conditioner/Outlet box + 2 Acoustic Revive power cords ( MRP approx Rs 1.2 L for the set.

We compared this to the (now old but still very well respected ) SHUNYATA Hydra Power Conditioner / outlet with its ( 20 Amp IEC )Python Power Cord.

I had also herd, just a few days earlier, TRANSPARENT Audio's (Top-O-The-Line) PLMM Power cords (US $ 2,000 each). 2 of these were used, One to my Electrocompaniet EC 1UP CD Player and the other to my Audio Research LS26 Pre Amp. Thanks to SBFX for the generous loan / audition.

I had LOVED the PLMM Power cords, which I believe were FAR superior to my Hydra + Sine Power cords.

Well on 1st listen, the Acoustic revive were FAR superior to my Hydra based set up. I was VERY surprised with this, because I had not found the Acoustic Revive Power cords significant, when I had tried them in my system a few weeks earlier, WITHOUT the Acoustic Revive Conditioner / outlet. With the Outlet, there was a HUGE transformation, like a pussy cat metamorphosing into a Tiger ! In this Avatar, they were worthy rivals to the PLMM Cords at probably Half the list price ....

Over 2 hours, we played around various permutations and combinations for the Boxes and power cords.

Just before wraping up for lunch, we once again did an AB against the Original Hydra and Acoustic Revive combinations.

This time IO was surprised that the difference, though still significant and distinct, did not seem as wide as at the first listen.

This was quite surprising, because I have always believed ( and experienced) that a Down Grade is More distinct than an Upgrade.....

To summarise,

1. I can understand a person's fluctuating views on Input Power.

2. Power Cords DO make a Huge difference , and now (rather than when this thread was first started by Abhi Pani, I tend to lean more in his direction that Power Cords probably DO make the Biggest difference of all the cables in a Hi Fi Set Up.

I want to add 1 more point to this long post ..

A short while ago, I had the privilege to hear the ( Highly respected, & used in studios ) DAD DAC in my system, compared directly to my Electrocompaniet CD player. The DAD was fed with the SPDIF output from my EC. So both shared the same 'source' (transport.

I was preparing to hear a radically different sound.

However, the EC and DAD surprisingly sounded VERY similar... FAR LESS of a difference between the EC & DAD DACs than a Change in the Power being changed from the Shunyata to the PLMM or Acoustic Revive.
SWITCH-IT-ON
Ist häufiger hier
#51 erstellt: 07. Jan 2011, 10:31
Dear Ampnut.....

This is an astonishing finishing line....

"However, the EC and DAD surprisingly sounded VERY similar... FAR LESS of a difference between the EC & DAD DACs than a Change in the Power being changed from the Shunyata to the PLMM or Acoustic Revive"

I am currently faced with a slightly similar dilemma if not the same....

1) Buy the Audionet "Max" monoblocks (currently rated as amongst the best)

2) Buy a set of Octave MRE 130 monos (to go with my pre.. Octave HP500SE)

3) Buy a speaker cable form Zensati (Zensati #1). This is speaker cable only, no interconnects. I have been told that this is a gem beyond compare...

so... now do you find the slight similarity?


[Beitrag von SWITCH-IT-ON am 07. Jan 2011, 10:31 bearbeitet]
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