Should one weigh audio equipment?

IMO..weight does help in forming an impression (say about build quality, components etc..)..so it does help in estimating the Sound quality as well...but thats it. You just cant conclude anything on that basis. Ultimately design and implemantation matters.

neutral......
Amplifiers....
Most of the weight is the power supply transformer and in valve amps output transformers as well.
The metal casing used also contributes to the weight along with the heat sinks, knobs etc etc....But heavy weight just proves the amp has heavy internals....what comes out is totally dependant on the design and implementation. A big x-former gives some comfort on the headroom the amp may have. But then again todays torroidal x-formers are smaller yet mighty performers.

Speakers
Wood does play an important part in speaker manufacture. One usually wants to make the cabinet as stiff and non-resonant as possible. Thick wood or multiple layers of wood or another material is used as one of the many ways to stiffen the cabinet and avoid flexing. Yes the magnet weighs a bit as well. The internal bracing would also contribute to the weight. In general for speakers if they are heavy, it implies that the cabinet could be stiffer and more dead than the lighter ones but its never a given. One has to do the knuckle wrap test to find out for sure.

On the cadence bookshelf front, the cabinets are wood and liquid concrete composite to make them stiff and dead. ofcourse there is internal bracing as well. The eton woofer magnets do add to the weight too. Do the knuckle wrap test anywhere on the cabinet of the bookshelf....it would really surprise you.

Manek.

adding on to what manek says.. weight is 1 criterion but definitely not the only one
some amps/speakers do literally punch above their weight ! eg the PMC speakers s are comparatively light but still do very well.

But yes Magnets and casing for amps, Transformers and Casing for Amps and Casing for CDPs are perhaps the bigger weight components and the heavier/bigger they are is good but not at the expense of critical components like Drivers/crossove for speakers, Transport/DAC for Source etc etc.

And foremost a Good design is the most important hence a light small speaker which is exceptionally well designed (eg the late Meadowlark series) can sound much better than components which are very heavy and with top class innards but "could be better" design

very much on;the lines of is the heavier car better

Will a heavier DVD/ CD player have a more stable transport that has better speed regulation? For eg. some of the CD players weigh more than DVD players

Yes it definetely is..... I give importance to weight provided I know where that amount of weight has gone into design. My CDP weighs in excess of 10 - 12 kilos ( maybe 14 )and has a very stable and heavy transport as well as huge analog section with very good designed power section and yes a very well designed and braced overalls....Where as my DVDP weighs just 3 kiols and looks like it might just get swallowed by my CDP.. . TEAC VRDS transport weigh a ton too and do their job.

An interesting thought.... obviously half tongue-in-cheek !

Class D and switching amps with switching power supplies will certainly loose out on this criterea !

Keeping every other parameter constant - the heavier the better

Regards

Sanjay

Manek schrieb:

neutral...... Amplifiers.... Most of the weight is the power supply transformer and in valve amps output transformers as well. The metal casing used also contributes to the weight along with the heat sinks, knobs etc etc....But heavy weight just proves the amp has heavy internals....what comes out is totally dependant on the design and implementation. A big x-former gives some comfort on the headroom the amp may have. But then again todays torroidal x-formers are smaller yet mighty performers. Speakers Wood does play an important part in speaker manufacture. One usually wants to make the cabinet as stiff and non-resonant as possible. Thick wood or multiple layers of wood or another material is used as one of the many ways to stiffen the cabinet and avoid flexing. Yes the magnet weighs a bit as well. The internal bracing would also contribute to the weight. In general for speakers if they are heavy, it implies that the cabinet could be stiffer and more dead than the lighter ones but its never a given. One has to do the knuckle wrap test to find out for sure. Manek.

Yes, for amps, the use of discrete components rather than ICs would increase the weight. But at the same time, the performance would depend a lot on design and implementation and not just brute force.

For speakers, the use of aluminium rather than wood would lower weight while still keeping rigidity. But I guess a properly-braced wooden speaker would be the best bet for affordable high-fi.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

An interesting thought.... obviously half tongue-in-cheek ! Class D and switching amps with switching power supplies will certainly loose out on this criterea ! :{

To what extent will new technologies reduce weight without compromising audio quality. Class D and switching amps are lighter, but do they sound as good as the regular stuff?

How viable are the new speaker technologies like neodymium magnets and titanium drivers? Do these just save weight or do they also compete on sound quality?

Is there a correlation between the technology used in audio equipment and their sound quality? Do the Meadowlarks, Cadence, Dynaudio, Bryston use some special technology or is it a matter of superior implementation?

To what extent will new technologies reduce weight without compromising audio quality. Class D and switching amps are lighter, but do they sound as good as the regular stuff?

Do they sound as good.....

I guess it depends on who you ask... and their preferences for the 'sound' they like.

Also will depend on the equipment they are partnered with ...

The net is full of rave reviews for Class D amps....

but then its also full of rave reviews for every amp that has probably been made....

Is there a correlation between the technology used in audio equipment and their sound quality? Do the Meadowlarks, Cadence, Dynaudio, Bryston use some special technology or is it a matter of superior implementation?

I good question.

Go back about a decade or 2 and we see that Amps were appreciated ( marketed ) on the basis of specs and design.

The Japanese Excelled at that, leaving the west far behind. Jap amps like the Nakamichi ( yup they did make a few amps, even way back then ) and Technics offer distortion measured in Parts per million, and freq response that spanned from DC to light...

Then came the subjectivists, like Naim, Lin and the NAD 3020. They played down the specs they could never match, and they trumpetted their own sound. There were (are) believers and non believers.

However, for the past 5 to 10 years, the design principles have been turned around. Feedback is Phoo-Phoo, and distortion specs are rarely mentioned. Why even the Baby Krell wont deliver its rated 200Watts per channel after pre-conditioning!

So toady the subjectivists are ruling the roost. Designs today are often replicas of 40 years ago classics, but implemented with todays components.

DACs are appreciated when they have passive filtering, that are 10 times worse at the task, but are reputed to sound better...

The simple design trend also 'protects' high end products from cloners that earlier nosed around for the cirkit diagrams and copied the innards. Todays circuits are often not new at all, but tweaked to deliver...

And now a few years ago, Halcro has stepped into the scene, and offered amps that are specified with Parts Per BILLION distortion.... and Many say they sound Fabulous.

Looks like the pendulum is beginning to swing in the opposite direction ?

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Is there a correlation between the technology used in audio equipment and their sound quality? Do the Meadowlarks, Cadence, Dynaudio, Bryston use some special technology or is it a matter of superior implementation? I good question. Go back about a decade or 2 and we see that Amps were appreciated ( marketed ) on the basis of specs and design. The Japanese Excelled at that, leaving the west far behind. Jap amps like the Nakamichi ( yup they did make a few amps, even way back then ) and Technics offer distortion measured in Parts per million, and freq response that spanned from DC to light... Then came the subjectivists, like Naim, Lin and the NAD 3020. They played down the specs they could never match, and they trumpetted their own sound. There were (are) believers and non believers. However, for the past 5 to 10 years, the design principles have been turned around. Feedback is Phoo-Phoo, and distortion specs are rarely mentioned. Why even the Baby Krell wont deliver its rated 200Watts per channel after pre-conditioning! So toady the subjectivists are ruling the roost. Designs today are often replicas of 40 years ago classics, but implemented with todays components. DACs are appreciated when they have passive filtering, that are 10 times worse at the task, but are reputed to sound better... The simple design trend also 'protects' high end products from cloners that earlier nosed around for the cirkit diagrams and copied the innards. Todays circuits are often not new at all, but tweaked to deliver... And now a few years ago, Halcro has stepped into the scene, and offered amps that are specified with Parts Per BILLION distortion.... and Many say they sound Fabulous. Looks like the pendulum is beginning to swing in the opposite direction ?

Re Distortion: From what I understand, lower-order distortion is less important. Excess feedback introduces very audible high-order distortion and makes equipment sound sterile and lifeless. Only a little local feedback in one stage is acceptable.

Re Subjectivists: Playing around with tech specs doesn't result in a better sounding product. It's very important to pay attention to things such as temporal distortion in speakers to get a coherent sound. Things that the spec-crazy crowd simply ignored. Just like the mass-market goats of today (and the salesmen) simply trumpet PMPO, rather than sound quality.

Re Reuse of Old Designs with New Components: Was quite unaware of this. I would have thought that newer designs would arise along with new components. A design is optimised for components currently in existence - right?

"Why even the Baby Krell wont deliver its rated 200Watts per channel after pre-conditioning!"
What are you saying here. I do not know what "pre-conditioning" is. Please clarify.

Driver technology: Better drivers should have led to major improvements in sound. Greater stiffness combined with better dissipation characteristics. However, I have no idea whether titanium or aluminium have any real advantages over conventional textile domes.

Class D amps: Are these suitable for mid-range reproduction? What is the SWOT of these amps?

Switching amps: I know that Sunfire uses it for its rubber-tire subwoofers. But are they refined enough for mid-range reproduction?

Some Class D and Switching amps have found GREAT favour with audiophiles.... NuForce, UCD, Lin, Jeff Rowland, and ofcourse the US $ 30 ( and 5 to 7 Watt ) T-Amp.

The internet is full of raves for some of these products.... but opinions are sometimes polarised

Neutral said:

"Why even the Baby Krell wont deliver its rated 200Watts per channel after pre-conditioning!" What are you saying here. I do not know what "pre-conditioning" is. Please clarify.

Yup its true for the Krell's 400i Integrated Amp... rated at 200Watts per channel.

This is a sleek, almost lifestyle design, with no external heatsinks. Its NOT a switching amp. Its priced at US $ 2500.

The FCC regulations in the US dictate that any power amp should be measured ( Output Power, distortion, noise etc ) After it is driven at 33% output power ... both channels , for 1 hour.

Though this requirement may seem modest, a Class AB amp ( which the 400i is, dissipate Max heat at 33% output power.

The Krell 4001 simply overheats and shuts down due to thermal protection, long before the 1 hour. .... Cant even Begin to make the measurements...

Check the Stereophile Site review archives...

This indicates too small heat sinking. Remember that the Heat sinks in this amp, are located INSIDE the amp, so have limited ventilation, inaddition to inadequate suface area.

For the manufacturer, internal Heat sinks mean cheaper heatsinks. They dont need to ne mechanically strong, or burr free, or even nicely anodised.

Metalwork often is one of the most expensive componets of an amp.. !

Clearly corners are cut, and maybe Krell feels its US $ 2500 babay need not be as immaculate as its other products... ?


Well, if you think that is Bad practice .... CHORD's FlagShip Power Amp, released within the past 1 year, priced at US $ 70,000 ( YUP, 70 Gs ! ) clips after delivering only HALF its promised power...

Subjectively, its ( the CHORD) sound quality is is supposed to be SUPERB... but should objectivity be ignored ? Particulary when its what is PROMISED in the brochure ?

Neutral schrieb:

Class D amps: Are these suitable for mid-range reproduction? What is the SWOT of these amps? Switching amps: I know that Sunfire uses it for its rubber-tire subwoofers. But are they refined enough for mid-range reproduction?

typically these so called digital amps have a great bass and midrange. the probles reported by some folks has been in the High frequency region where some of them apparently run out of steam..
again its quite subjective AFAIK as the discussions tend to get really polarised !

Re Reuse of Old Designs with New Components: Was quite unaware of this. I would have thought that newer designs would arise along with new components. A design is optimised for components currently in existence - right?

SLOID STATE (SS) DESIGN
There have been almost no new circuit topologies for conventional audio amps in the past 10 years or so... (Except switching audio amps )

Current feedback has been around for a decade, so have nested local feedback loops suggested by Cherry. In all fairness, I am probably missing afew... can someone help ?

TUBE DESIGN
Guess no new tubes for the past 30 years, except 'Guilding the Lilly' and new numbers for Valves very similar to old ones.

Circuits have remained the same. Only now, there seems to be a wider use of paralleling tubes even at the pre-amp level..

Again, if I am missing someting, can someone help ?

Cheers

from what i have understood, topology has remained unchanged.

There have been minor tweaks in individual design to take into account better components with higher tolerances.

over the years Speakers have increased in resolution (No comments on musicality) so other componets have caught on in the resolution front. cables which were immaterial have taken on a new importance due to this increased resolving power..

of course the above is very simply put..

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Some Class D and Switching amps have found GREAT favour with audiophiles.... NuForce, UCD, Lin, Jeff Rowland, and ofcourse the US $ 30 ( and 5 to 7 Watt ) T-Amp. The internet is full of raves for some of these products.... but opinions are sometimes polarised :KR

$30 for an amp - isn't that real affordable. What's the catch in the T amp? Will it power a bookshelf or just HT cubes?

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Neutral said: "Why even the Baby Krell wont deliver its rated 200Watts per channel after pre-conditioning!" What are you saying here. I do not know what "pre-conditioning" is. Please clarify. Yup its true for the Krell's 400i Integrated Amp... rated at 200Watts per channel. This is a sleek, almost lifestyle design, with no external heatsinks. Its NOT a switching amp. Its priced at US $ 2500. The FCC regulations in the US dictate that any power amp should be measured ( Output Power, distortion, noise etc ) After it is driven at 33% output power ... both channels , for 1 hour. Though this requirement may seem modest, a Class AB amp ( which the 400i is, dissipate Max heat at 33% output power. The Krell 4001 simply overheats and shuts down due to thermal protection, long before the 1 hour. .... Cant even Begin to make the measurements... Check the Stereophile Site review archives... This indicates too small heat sinking. Remember that the Heat sinks in this amp, are located INSIDE the amp, so have limited ventilation, inaddition to inadequate suface area. For the manufacturer, internal Heat sinks mean cheaper heatsinks. They dont need to ne mechanically strong, or burr free, or even nicely anodised. Metalwork often is one of the most expensive componets of an amp.. ! Clearly corners are cut, and maybe Krell feels its US $ 2500 babay need not be as immaculate as its other products... ? Well, if you think that is Bad practice .... CHORD's FlagShip Power Amp, released within the past 1 year, priced at US $ 70,000 ( YUP, 70 Gs ! ) clips after delivering only HALF its promised power... Subjectively, its ( the CHORD) sound quality is is supposed to be SUPERB... but should objectivity be ignored ? Particulary when its what is PROMISED in the brochure ? :.

Honesty in hifi is that rare? I always thought that Bryston, Nad, Pulz and Krell could be implicitly trusted to deliver what they promised. Krell's 400i Integrated Amp is a lemon that denigrates that revered brand name.

Internal vs. external heat sinks: My Pulz too has an internal heat sink but it never overheats even after 5 hrs of continuous use. Its salesmen say that the entire metal body acts as a heatsink. So your take is that the (uglier) external heatsinks are better.

"a Class AB amp ( which the 400i is, dissipate Max heat at 33% output power." : This is news to me. I always thought that heat generation is proportional to current flow which in turn is proportional to volume (in class . That is why knowing an amp's continuous power is important.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

This indicates too small heat sinking. Remember that the Heat sinks in this amp, are located INSIDE the amp, so have limited ventilation, inaddition to inadequate suface area. For the manufacturer, internal Heat sinks mean cheaper heatsinks. They dont need to ne mechanically strong, or burr free, or even nicely anodised. Metalwork often is one of the most expensive componets of an amp.. ! Clearly corners are cut, and maybe Krell feels its US $ 2500 babay need not be as immaculate as its other products... ? Well, if you think that is Bad practice .... CHORD's FlagShip Power Amp, released within the past 1 year, priced at US $ 70,000 ( YUP, 70 Gs ! ) clips after delivering only HALF its promised power... Subjectively, its ( the CHORD) sound quality is is supposed to be SUPERB... but should objectivity be ignored ? Particulary when its what is PROMISED in the brochure ? :.

Didn't know metalwork could be that expensive. Nowadays, aluminium is used instead of rusting steel. That certainly would raise costs.

Can you compare the measurement systems used by US FTC, JEITA etc. I guess the US measurements are the best though nothing beats an honest manufacturer.

$30 for an amp - isn't that real affordable. What's the catch in the T amp? Will it power a bookshelf or just HT cubes?

Welcome to the world of flea powered amps

Highly efficient speakers (92 dB or better ) can fill a reasonable sized room with loud sound. Horn loaded speakers offer this kind of efficiency. The Japanese audiophiles love this path to audio nirvana

In general, speakers with small enclosures are less efficient that the larger enclosure ones. Hence you are unlikely to find bookshelf speakers that will make loud music when fed 5 to 7 Watts.

The T-Amp puts out approx 5 Watts per channel, and it dies instantly if fed more than 13.8 Volts at its power terminals.

Many audiophiles consider the SET ( Single Ended Triode ) power amp configuration. This provides smooth and detailed sound when used with efficient speakers. You will have read screamgigi & bombaywalla discussing this on another parallel running thread...

Didn't know metalwork could be that expensive. Nowadays, aluminium is used instead of rusting steel. That certainly would raise costs.

Glad you have a questioning mind

I often throw in a comment hoping that someone will take the bait, and relatively less known issues get ventilated

Yup, Heatsink cost more than Transistors of the same power capability.

As an example, a black anodised Al heatsink capable of dissipationg 20 Watts, at 65 deg C ( almost too hot to touch ) will certainly cost more than some power transistors rated at over 100 Watts !!!

The heatsinking capability is proportional to the surface area exposed ( amongst some other, less critical parameters ). Hence an amp that uses its case as a Heat sink is not a very uncommon idea. Infact nowadays, even refrigirators use their body as a heatsink, and run mildly warm to touch. That prevents the refrigirator from 'sweating' ( ie water condensing on it, during high humidity ) ... but that is another story...

"a Class AB amp ( which the 400i is, dissipate Max heat at 33% output power." : This is news to me. I always thought that heat generation is proportional to current flow which in turn is proportional to volume (in class . That is why knowing an amp's continuous power is important.

Heat dissipated Inside a power amp is dependent on the Instantanous product of Current AND voltage accross the output transistors.

When delivering Full Power, the Voltage accross the transistors is Minimal... Only the current is large. Hence not too much heat generated accross the output devices.

The exact opposite when delivering low output power ( Low current but high Voltage drop accross the output devices, so again not too much heat Inside the amp.

At 1/3 power... Worst case dissipation takes place.... there is a math proof for this too

Cheers

Amp_Nut schrieb:

$30 for an amp - isn't that real affordable. What's the catch in the T amp? Will it power a bookshelf or just HT cubes? Welcome to the world of flea powered amps Highly efficient speakers (92 dB or better ) can fill a reasonable sized room with loud sound. Horn loaded speakers offer this kind of efficiency. The Japanese audiophiles love this path to audio nirvana In general, speakers with small enclosures are less efficient that the larger enclosure ones. Hence you are unlikely to find bookshelf speakers that will make loud music when fed 5 to 7 Watts. The T-Amp puts out approx 5 Watts per channel, and it dies instantly if fed more than 13.8 Volts at its power terminals. Many audiophiles consider the SET ( Single Ended Triode ) power amp configuration. This provides smooth and detailed sound when used with efficient speakers. You will have read screamgigi & bombaywalla discussing this on another parallel running thread...

Adding on, it is around 6 W into 8 ohms and 10 into 4 ohms.. so a 86db+ speaker with impedance not dipping below 3 ohms can be run wonderfully by this.

Dear Arj,

I see you are still running. And how come you gained so much weight Human body performs better with lesser weight, unlike audio equipment. Remember, you used to run so much faster

Regards

Sanjay