Buying Demo Equipment

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Krish
Stammgast
#1 erstellt: 24. Jun 2007, 13:08
Hi guys,
A few questions.

Am out of the country currently and have encountered some good deals on Demo Equipment.I have my eye on the Roksan Kandy power amp

a)Is it wise to buy demo pieces ( obviously at discounted rates ), what should one be looking for ? what should one watch out for ?

b)I located a Kandy Power amp at a Sevenoaks dealer quite close to where I am, unfortunately while demoing this piece, the salesman managed to short the amp ( he forgot to remove the bridges behind the speaker terminals, before connecting the amps , believe that)

However the salesman spoke to Roksan, who assured him that the fault was minor and was eminently fixable at the dealer.
The amp will be under warranty ( international i hope, I have asked the dealer to check ).Sevenoaks is a large Hifi cahin in the U.K

Do you think that I should trust the dealer's word ? Is it a unwise to touch this amp ?

I spoke to Manek who recommends that I keep away from the amp and the dealer.

Is it better to buy a new piece, and not take the risk?

Viren,Amp nut,Arj,Bombaywallah,Siva,Prithvi and the others, please
advice.

Cheers
Krishnan
zhopudey
Stammgast
#2 erstellt: 24. Jun 2007, 13:49
Myabe I can piggyback on your question

Need some info about buying a used amp. How long do amps usually last? What should I look for? How is their resale price normally decided? How do I make out if I'm getting a good deal or not?
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 24. Jun 2007, 14:52


Viren,Amp nut,Arj,Bombaywallah,Siva,Prithvi and the others, please
advice.


Hi Krish,

I really wish I could be more helpful, but I dont know the insides of the Kandy Power Amp.

Most Power Amp sections have fuses in the Power Supply rails, that will blow to protect against such mistakes.

However, Murphy's Laws dictate that the Expensive semiconductors will blow 1st and protect the fuse !

If a power transistor has blown... it implies a major repair..




How long do amps usually last? What should I look for? How is their resale price normally decided?


Depending on the quality of the Original product, pwer amps could last for a LONG, LONG time ... 10 years Easily, 20 years not uncommon for well made products and even 40+ years for many well made classics...

However, the Electrolytic Capacitors will almost certainly start to degenerate between 10 to 20 years. Reconditioning the amp would mean, amongst other things, to change of Electolytic ( Usually Large value as used in the Power supply, ) capacitors.

Other things to look out for, excluding aesthetics, is ofcourse for scratchy switches and volume controls. ( They will Sound scratchy, when operated )

A reasonable starting point for ANY 2nd Hand Hi Fi would be 50% of the list price... exceptions such as Classics or collectors items excluded.....

Many such deals are also available on the Buy - Sell section of this very forum...

All above IMHO
Arj
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 24. Jun 2007, 15:31
Hi Krish,
IF the dealer provides warranty, and it says so in your sales invoice then it is safe. but since it is a dealer warranty and not a company warranty not sure of the "international" par of it..
viren
Stammgast
#5 erstellt: 24. Jun 2007, 15:38
Hi Krish,

Normally power amps should last a long time, and there is no problem in picking up a used/demo one. I have done so on a few occasions myself.

In this particular case, if the amp had worked and sounded good, and came at an attractive price, you could have picked it up. However, shorting a solid-state amp can be catastrophic on the output stage - can blow output devices. By the time a fuse responds, the devices are gone!

So, you are in your right to ask for the amp to be repaired, audition it again, and only then make up your mind to buy. The dealer should oblige - otherwise, stay away!

Viren.
bhagwan69
Inventar
#6 erstellt: 24. Jun 2007, 16:42

Arj schrieb:
IF the dealer provides warranty, and it says so in your sales invoice then it is safe.


I do not know much about this, since I have not purchased used audio gear from anyone that I did not know personally, however, just to comment on your statement;

I do not know any 'audio dealer' in India that will service or stand by the product that they sell / distribute if the same has not been purchased from them or from their sub dealer etc. I may be wrong, but of the many instances that I have been exposed to, in most cases the A.DE. [Audio Dealer] or A.DI. [Audio Distributor] first tries to 'wash his hands off' it, or else quotes some absurd price for the part / repair.

Have any forum members had any experiances ?
bhagwan69
Inventar
#7 erstellt: 24. Jun 2007, 16:46

Krish schrieb:


Am out of the country currently and have encountered some good deals on Demo Equipment.I have my eye on the Roksan Kandy power amp.

Krishnan


Although you have not asked me, I am going to add my 2 bits in, I hope you do not mind.

I strongly suggest against buying 'used' gear from any one that is not known to you.
What ever you buy, its history must be well known to you.
I am not suggesting that the amp is question is old and used or abused, but you just do not know who used it ? How it was used ? Whith what gear it was used etc.

Buy what ever you want in India. You will get very very nice deals in India @ 50 to 60 % discount on the international list price with ease.
It is safer, you know what the product has been through.

Just a suggestion.

Not to forget, carrying it in [weight] + Indian Customs etc.
Savyasaachi
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 24. Jun 2007, 22:20
stay away Krish....
it is surprising to note that the Roskan does not come with output protection circuits.
They are very prevalent even in DIY audio circles.
Krish
Stammgast
#9 erstellt: 24. Jun 2007, 22:34

viren schrieb:
Hi Krish,

Normally power amps should last a long time, and there is no problem in picking up a used/demo one. I have done so on a few occasions myself.

In this particular case, if the amp had worked and sounded good, and came at an attractive price, you could have picked it up. However, shorting a solid-state amp can be catastrophic on the output stage - can blow output devices. By the time a fuse responds, the devices are gone!

So, you are in your right to ask for the amp to be repaired, audition it again, and only then make up your mind to buy. The dealer should oblige - otherwise, stay away!

Viren.


Hi Viren,
The saleman at the dealer was very clear that he would not sell me the amp if it was not in proper working condition.

He also did call up the help desk guys at the company who seemed to say that the fault was minor and not major and that it seemed fixable.

Anyway this salesman has asked me to call him in a day or two to get an update and hopefully another audition.

So is it still a risk ? Is there a chance that the amp will go kaput once I get it back.


Hi Krish,
IF the dealer provides warranty, and it says so in your sales invoice then it is safe. but since it is a dealer warranty and not a company warranty not sure of the "international" par of it..


Arj,
The saleguy specifically stated that all the demo pieces sold from the outlet were covered by a warranty.That ofcourse applied to this piece as well.

My dilema is how reliable will the piece be post the repair ?

K
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#10 erstellt: 25. Jun 2007, 06:00


My dilema is how reliable will the piece be post the repair ?


If the amp is fixed in quick time by the dealer, there is a Good chance that it was only the fuse.

As long as he has replaced the fuse with the correct rating ( ) the amp will be as good as new.

If the fuse rating is too low ( not replaced correctly ) it may blow agauin in India, but will be a simple ( and inexpensive ) fix.

viren
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 25. Jun 2007, 06:42
Krish,

Any solid-state amp, whose outputs are shorted, will fail. How extensive the damage is depends on the design of the amp. If its easily fixed, the amp probably has good output protection. It should serve you well.

Roksan has a good reputation for designing good sounding products. So, its a judgement call - if you really like its sound, go for it. You won't find any Indian solid-state amp of equivalent quality.

Ask for a service manual along with the amp. That's a requirement for any future repairs on the amp. And parts are easily available from all over the world. I'm sure, Roksan being the company it is, will support you even in India. Deal directly with them.

Viren.
Savyasaachi
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 25. Jun 2007, 07:33

viren schrieb:
Krish,

Any solid-state amp, whose outputs are shorted, will fail. How extensive the damage is depends on the design of the amp. If its easily fixed, the amp probably has good output protection. It should serve you well.

Roksan has a good reputation for designing good sounding products. So, its a judgement call - if you really like its sound, go for it. You won't find any Indian solid-state amp of equivalent quality.


Viren.


I beg to differ..
i know that there are SS amps which u can short outputs and they they just shut down.
You can just turn it on again and it works perfectly fine..

And i believe you can find robust Indian SS amps if you look hard enough..
SNV
Stammgast
#13 erstellt: 25. Jun 2007, 09:24

Savyasaachi schrieb:


I beg to differ..
i know that there are SS amps which u can short outputs and they they just shut down.
You can just turn it on again and it works perfectly fine..



I second that.

Also Roksan has no support in India. Infact i know of clients who waited for as long as 6 months to 2 yrs for spare parts from Roksan. Some did receive after a fairly long wait and some have dumped their amps.

Regards
SNV
purnendu
Stammgast
#14 erstellt: 25. Jun 2007, 09:37
I will second that. There is a bombay Roksan dealer, apparently. However I could not even get the price of their turntable from him. Dont risk it is my advice. Solid state amps, once they give problems are hard to repair.Parts will be hard to source, and finding someone to repair it even more difficult. Sometime impulse buying can give a long term head ache, although there is nothing wrong in buying demo kit. I have one such and it works fine.
Purnendu
bhagwan69
Inventar
#15 erstellt: 25. Jun 2007, 12:04
Roksam had a dealer in India.
Mr. vdH did it here - Colah if I am not mistaken.

I had seen and heard the Roksan products @ PP's place [La Kozy].

YOu should ask Marbin, he sure will be having goods left over from his Distribution Days - Roksan.
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#16 erstellt: 26. Jun 2007, 01:02

Krish schrieb:
Hi guys,
A few questions.

Am out of the country currently and have encountered some good deals on Demo Equipment.I have my eye on the Roksan Kandy power amp

a)Is it wise to buy demo pieces ( obviously at discounted rates ), what should one be looking for ? what should one watch out for ?


Krish,
I personally buy mostly used equipment which makes is much more affordable for me. So far I have not had any issues. I even bought a used cartridge. Now, that sale did give me the jitters (I admit) but the seller was honest & I'm still using that cartridge 3 years since! However, I've been very careful to ensure that the equipment has never been damaged cosmetically or electrically
So, from my personal stand-point, I'll buy used equipment again.


Krish schrieb:

b)I located a Kandy Power amp at a Sevenoaks dealer quite close to where I am, unfortunately while demoing this piece, the salesman managed to short the amp ( he forgot to remove the bridges behind the speaker terminals, before connecting the amps , believe that)

unbelievable!
these sales guys can be clueless!


Krish schrieb:

However the salesman spoke to Roksan, who assured him that the fault was minor and was eminently fixable at the dealer.
The amp will be under warranty ( international i hope, I have asked the dealer to check ).Sevenoaks is a large Hifi cahin in the U.K

Do you think that I should trust the dealer's word ? Is it a unwise to touch this amp ?


It's difficult to give you a definite answer as it really depends on the exact situation you are in & a visual inspection of the amp itself.
I had something similar happen to me w/ a recent amp purchase. I felt that the seller had sold me a bad/deffective piece. SOme debugging of the issue revealed that one of the input tubes was running currents out-of-spec & that was causing the amp to blow a fuse & shut-down. In my case, however, the fuse blew each time & protected ALL the tubes. I had the input tube + fuse replaced & I was up & running. Haven't had any issues since.

So, like Amp_Nut said, the fuse is supposed to blow 1st (that's why its there!) but it might not be the case w/ this Roksan amp & the output transistor *might* have gotten fried! In that case, as Amp_Nut mentions, it could be a major repair.



Krish schrieb:

I spoke to Manek who recommends that I keep away from the amp and the dealer.

Is it better to buy a new piece, and not take the risk?


yes, this is the usual reaction - to run from a defective piece. It might be the prudent thing to do in your case depending upon what you evaluate as the real issue once you have looked at the amp & assessed the damage for yourself. Depends on the dealer's rep as well.

Maybe you can ask the dealer to repair the amp in a timely fashion & you go back & check out the insides + listen to it as well.
If he cannot get the repair done on-time OR/& you feel he is an air-head sales guy, drop this amp & look for something else.
If you buy it, ensure that you have warranty on it just in case.
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#17 erstellt: 26. Jun 2007, 01:08

zhopudey schrieb:
Myabe I can piggyback on your question

Need some info about buying a used amp. How long do amps usually last? What should I look for? How is their resale price normally decided? How do I make out if I'm getting a good deal or not?



Amps can last a very long time.
I'm in agreement with Amp_Nut over the time scales he mentioned & which components will likely need replacement.
There are several people operating original electronics Dynaco ST-XX amps, McIntosh 275 amps, Scott & Fisher & Eico amps all over the place.
Most of these amps (if not all) have updated power supply components & coupling caps. the electronics, otherwise, is all original.
If the amp is used within the specs it was designed for & not abused, its life can be 10-20-30 years without any major issues.
Krish
Stammgast
#18 erstellt: 27. Jun 2007, 10:55

bombaywalla schrieb:

Krish schrieb:
Hi guys,
A few questions.

Am out of the country currently and have encountered some good deals on Demo Equipment.I have my eye on the Roksan Kandy power amp

a)Is it wise to buy demo pieces ( obviously at discounted rates ), what should one be looking for ? what should one watch out for ?


Krish,
I personally buy mostly used equipment which makes is much more affordable for me. So far I have not had any issues. I even bought a used cartridge. Now, that sale did give me the jitters (I admit) but the seller was honest & I'm still using that cartridge 3 years since! However, I've been very careful to ensure that the equipment has never been damaged cosmetically or electrically
So, from my personal stand-point, I'll buy used equipment again.


Krish schrieb:

b)I located a Kandy Power amp at a Sevenoaks dealer quite close to where I am, unfortunately while demoing this piece, the salesman managed to short the amp ( he forgot to remove the bridges behind the speaker terminals, before connecting the amps , believe that)

unbelievable!
these sales guys can be clueless!


Krish schrieb:

However the salesman spoke to Roksan, who assured him that the fault was minor and was eminently fixable at the dealer.
The amp will be under warranty ( international i hope, I have asked the dealer to check ).Sevenoaks is a large Hifi cahin in the U.K

Do you think that I should trust the dealer's word ? Is it a unwise to touch this amp ?


It's difficult to give you a definite answer as it really depends on the exact situation you are in & a visual inspection of the amp itself.
I had something similar happen to me w/ a recent amp purchase. I felt that the seller had sold me a bad/deffective piece. SOme debugging of the issue revealed that one of the input tubes was running currents out-of-spec & that was causing the amp to blow a fuse & shut-down. In my case, however, the fuse blew each time & protected ALL the tubes. I had the input tube + fuse replaced & I was up & running. Haven't had any issues since.

So, like Amp_Nut said, the fuse is supposed to blow 1st (that's why its there!) but it might not be the case w/ this Roksan amp & the output transistor *might* have gotten fried! In that case, as Amp_Nut mentions, it could be a major repair.



Krish schrieb:

I spoke to Manek who recommends that I keep away from the amp and the dealer.

Is it better to buy a new piece, and not take the risk?


yes, this is the usual reaction - to run from a defective piece. It might be the prudent thing to do in your case depending upon what you evaluate as the real issue once you have looked at the amp & assessed the damage for yourself. Depends on the dealer's rep as well.

Maybe you can ask the dealer to repair the amp in a timely fashion & you go back & check out the insides + listen to it as well.
If he cannot get the repair done on-time OR/& you feel he is an air-head sales guy, drop this amp & look for something else.
If you buy it, ensure that you have warranty on it just in case.


Thanks bombaywalla,
I plan to audition the amp before taking a decision.

The salesguy was honest enough to say that he would not sell
me the amp if it could not be fixed approriately in time.

Cheers
K
Krish
Stammgast
#19 erstellt: 28. Jun 2007, 00:49
just got a call from from the Sevenoaks guys telling me that the amp's been fixed.

So I will toogle across and give it a listen.

Keep you guys posted.

k
Krish
Stammgast
#20 erstellt: 28. Jun 2007, 00:50
just got a call from from the Sevenoaks guys telling me that the amp's been fixed.

So I will toodle across and give it a listen.

Keep you guys posted.

k
Savyasaachi
Inventar
#21 erstellt: 28. Jun 2007, 02:22
Good luck..hope it works out for you.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#22 erstellt: 28. Jun 2007, 04:20
Since its taken a few days to fix... I suspect the Output transistors had blown ?

I would not touch that amp.

Remember you do not have a Non Repaired amp ( Same brand and model ) to A/B it against... !
Krish
Stammgast
#23 erstellt: 29. Jun 2007, 00:46

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Since its taken a few days to fix... I suspect the Output transistors had blown ?

I would not touch that amp.

Remember you do not have a Non Repaired amp ( Same brand and model ) to A/B it against... ! :.


I checked with the sales guy over the phone, apparently they took the amp to the Roksan factory, where they had the fuse fixed.

The sales guy also said that that it was the fuse and not the output transistor.

Anyway I suppose there is no harm in listening to it.


K
Krish
Stammgast
#24 erstellt: 29. Jun 2007, 00:47
BTW it is I who delayed in getting back to them.

Think they ixed it quite quickly.
bhagwan69
Inventar
#25 erstellt: 11. Jul 2007, 15:58
Hi !

Did you get a chance to demo / audition the amp ?
What speaker did you use ? What was the rest of the chain ?
Did you like it ?
Any other amps were there for you to compare it with ?

I hope you had favourable memories;;;
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