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abhi.pani schrieb:

Buddy, it would be really helpful if you could bring out a small list of setups in that budget which are reasonably neutral in your opinion. Please put the speaker + Amp combo along with their prices. Thanks Abhi

Okay I'll mention my most acceptable combo.
1)Maggie MG12 : 72000
2)NAD 352 : 29000
3)NAD 542 : 26000
4)PSB Subsonic8: 20000
5)Cables VDH : 13000

I think that comes to 1.65 lakhs.You will need to spend about 10k on a baap setup guy, for getting this combo right for you,because if it is not done correctly, you are going to scream murder.
Deaf.

Thanks for that Deaf.

Need any other choices?
Deaf.

Yes, definitely, more the better..

Can I recommend something I sell too?
Deaf.

Oh ofcourse...its just to increase our outlook to the neutral world..
Doesnt matter who sells it.
The only thing is budget.

Okay I'll mention my most acceptable combo. 1)Maggie MG12 : 72000 2)NAD 352 : 29000 3)NAD 542 : 26000 4)PSB Subsonic8: 20000 5)Cables VDH : 13000

Deaf,
Do you think Maggies do Rock well ? I have found them to be very smooth and laid-back....hence wondering if it can do upbeat genres like Rock, Pop, Electronica well..

I would never call Maggies laid back.
they are very much a front row experience with the dynamics and the immediacy and the only thing they lack is true bass maybe below the 40s. but once they integrate with a sub they are really very good.

they really need power and their lack of performance could perhaps be attributed to an amp mismatch as they come in the category of more the power the better i do

Arj schrieb:

I would never call Maggies laid back. they are very much a front row experience with the dynamics and the immediacy and the only thing they lack is true bass maybe below the 40s. but once they integrate with a sub they are really very good. :)

Absolutely.

The Maggies that I have heard have always been up there. They have always been painting an image that is way bigger than life.

They are far far away from being laid back.

I have auditioned the 3.6's & the 20.1's with different anplifiers.

And yes, they are always a bit bass shy. 40 cycles is what they will do at best, no below that. The ribbons just cannot move that amount of air.

I have found them to be very smooth and laid-back....hence wondering if it can do upbeat genres like Rock, Pop, Electronica well

This I have yet to hear !!

Arj schrieb:

they really need power and their lack of performance could perhaps be attributed to an amp mismatch as they come in the category of more the power the better i do

Right again;

The Maggies need a strong amplifier & that too one that is a voltage drive. They do not need strong current drive amplifiers.

Hence, what abhi.pani heard must have been an amplifier that could not drive them well & hence the lame & laid back feel. Sir, please do try and get a listen again, you may be surprised at what comes out of it !!!

Besides, I have heard that set up that 'deaf' is talking about, and yes, is does sound rather nice. Good value buster set up, although I am not so sure if I would term that as 'neutral' [sorry]

Hence, what abhi.pani heard must have been an amplifier that could not drive them well & hence the lame & laid back feel.

Yes, I heard them with an entry level Onkyo Stereo amp 60 watts per channel
since I heard them at the Onkyo showroom so I couldnt demand for a better amp..
but I also didnt know that they need more muscular amps..

All have a sensitivity of 85 to 86 dB's & the Impedence is rated @ 4 Ohms, but it drops low.
So a nice big amp would do it no harm.

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_36

Onkyo just ain't hacking it !!

abhi.pani schrieb:

Yes, I heard them with an entry level Onkyo Stereo amp 60 watts per channel

aaah so that might be the culprit gviving the laid back sound...the maggies do pretty ok for their price on that

Bhagwan69 schrieb:

Besides, I have heard that set up that 'deaf' is talking about, and yes, is does sound rather nice. Good value buster set up, although I am not so sure if I would term that as 'neutral' [sorry]

i would rather put it that the maggies might be the neutral thing there, but if the NADs are neutral the then system just might be neutral as well :))

The maggies that deaf mentioned are really really nice.
The 3.6 also are quite a speaker.

IMHO they definately are not laid back.

Lovely speakers. Need space behind them and a strong amp.

Manek.

Yes, as Bhagwan says it is not neutral to the core as he heard it.That is because I chose not to make them sound so.A judicious placement, subwoofer level and placement, coupled with a correct selection of cables and room treatment can do the trick though. The MG12 are planar magnetic even in the HF section,hence are drier than pure ribbons in their character.The 3.6 and 20.1 have pure ribbons in the HF section and hence sound airer and palpable.
The second choice I would give is the Energy RC-70 floorstander, but this will increase the budget by about 25-30k.Needs a big room, but once dialed in correctly,rock is a pleasure to listen on these beasts.Infact I just sold a pair to a rocker yesterday.He heard 'Darkness' from Peter Gabriel's album UP,at very low SPLs.3 minutes into the track and he was sold.If possible consider these babies seriously.
Deaf.

deaf schrieb:

Second choice I would give is the Energy RC-70 floorstander

I will vouch for this. With correct placement, this speaker sounds fantastic! I remember hearing a classical piece on this with Deaf. Beautiful!

Hi Shahrukh, do pop in at the Lamington road office,I have set up another pair here and you will love the sound.I have pulled this off in a very small 9'x9' room.
Deaf.

I remember Energy..another canadien speaker from the Paradigm/Mirage family .thier measeuments are ususly perfect due to their advanced lab/facility.

they are in the news a lot less these days.

arent PSB also supposed to be along the neutral lines ?

Flyod Toole and the NRC research is the background of these speaker brands, their measurements and chosen philosophy.Hated by many audiophiles due to their neutral tilt, nontheless more successful than most speaker manufacturers, the Canadian brigade of speaker manufacturers have mastered the art of delivering the maximum value for minimum investment.
Deaf.

The NRC...yes a big boon to the canadian speaker manufacturer....

manek.

NEUTRALITY & THE EMPEROR’S NEW CLOTHES !

First of all my thanks to Sub Boss for this thread.

I am taking the liberty to ventilate my somewhat lateral ( Obtuse ? ) thinking.

I have voted in this poll, ( Neutral + Bass ) but that is un-important… infact almost the opposite.

1.I believe that each of us ( yeah, even audiophiles ) listens to music RATHER differently.

To me tonal neutrality is not a prime concern, as long as its all there… like a well ( not perfectly) balanced meal. Like a good Indian ‘Thali’ the consumption should include all flavours. If some flavour overwhelms . . . the meal is messed up, but if the balance is off to some extent, it could still be pleasurable meal. Infact some prefer a twinge of sweetness to all the food ( Gujarati Thali ) and that make the meal more memorable to them.

2.To me the ambience, soundstage, detail, the rhythm & impact are more pleasurable, and bring home the essence of the performance MORE than Neutrality.

Hence while a strong case can be made out in favour of Neutrality, its not my prime mover. Good luck and fun to those who cherish neutrality.

But then neither are ‘perfectly’ proportioned babes like Pam Anderson or Madonna, my ideals 

3.A few months ago, I read of an experiment, where German Volunteers were made to listen to closely spaced tones. They simply had to state if the sequence of 2 to 3 tones were ascending or descending in frequency.

40% of the panel CONSISTENTLY interpreted the rising freq sequences as falling freq sequences !

Now THAT seems like a FUNDAMENTAL flaw… or just that tone precision is not that well distinguished.

4.A lesson from this ….. if I may, Each of us needs to recognize what pleases us, and look for that in a system, rather than what some sales person will tell you a s ‘Neutral’ system or whatever, and then try to accept and enjoy what you have been sold.

I know of atleast 2 Very High priced systems, that to me … represent the Emperor’s New Clothes !

Bravo Amp_nut

Wisely & Bravely spoken !

Manek.

Hi Shahrukh, do pop in at the Lamington road office,I have set up another pair here and you will love the sound.I have pulled this off in a very small 9'x9' room. Deaf.

Could you please provide me the address and anytime between 2 pm to 7 pm omn a Saturday ?

Thanks !

I see Amp_Nut's point too.Well I used to think the same way about 6-10 years ago.So did SBFX till quite recently.Evolving to neutrality is a choice.Most people do not take it and I understand why.For the few who do, we find it hard to go back to High End audio.We just care about the musical message and less the system.
Deaf.b

Dear Deaf,

Thanks for your feedback.

I CERTAINLY repect your VERY KEEN Hearing, and hope that someday I too am able to cultivate my hearing to your level.

On the parameters of musical enjoyment, I guess its 'To Each Their Own'

Cheers !

A lesson from this ….. if I may, Each of us needs to recognize what pleases us, and look for that in a system, rather than what some sales person will tell you a s ‘Neutral’ system or whatever, and then try to accept and enjoy what you have been sold.

While I agree with Amp when he says that essentially you should make your own choice,i.e. sell yourself", rather than be bulldozed either by a salesman/friend/"expert",I would recommend that one should hear a neutral rig as a benchmark, and then take it from there-if, subsequently, a "coloured" system pleases you better, so be it.But make your choice with both your eyes( and ears!) open.
Would have loved to hear your rig, Deaf.
Kamal

I have set up another pair here and you will love the sound.I have pulled this off in a very small 9'x9' room. Deaf.

Now thats, tempting...first of all its a square room, secondly its small...the curosity is kiling me deaf..but sadly I am too far off to satisfy my curosity...in Bangalore..
How about a pic of the room buddy..?

abhi.pani schrieb:

I have set up another pair here and you will love the sound.I have pulled this off in a very small 9'x9' room. Deaf. Now thats, tempting...first of all its a square room,

I missed that ! thanks abhi for isolating that .

deaf this is really interesting.. can I guess that it is a diagonal setup ? also any room treatments ?

Yes, room treatment for midrange upward only,as you can't treat for LF effectively unless you build a 4' deep trap.Besides what can I do physically in terms of a 9x9 room? No it is not a diagonal setup.Just a placement trick.
Dear Kamal my home setup is crap,you need to hear what I setup for SBFX.
It takes about 20-30 minutes before you adjust to the neutrality,but when it hits you,it is like a bolt.Sonic Master went through this cycle too.
Deaf.b

Floorstander in a 9 x 9 room..wow !
Can you share this placement trick with us. It will benefit all because lot of us have speakers in similar or slightly bigger rooms.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Dear Deaf, Thanks for your feedback. I CERTAINLY repect your VERY KEEN Hearing, and hope that someday I too am able to cultivate my hearing to your level. On the parameters of musical enjoyment, I guess its 'To Each Their Own' Cheers ! :prost

Musical enjoyment I agree,my keen hearing I don't.I am too jaded with P.A systems and studio setups along with home audio.SWITCH-IT-ON and SBFX are the reference to go by in my opinion for high end audio and neutrality and Bhagwan for musicality.

square_wave schrieb:

Floorstander in a 9 x 9 room..wow ! Can you share this placement trick with us. It will benefit all because lot of us have speakers in similar or slightly bigger rooms.

Best trick is Deaf on the site.If you are in Mumbai. :D.
Deaf.

deaf schrieb:

Hi Shahrukh, do pop in at the Lamington road office,I have set up another pair here and you will love the sound.I have pulled this off in a very small 9'x9' room. Deaf.

Surely sir! Next Saturday?

Next Sat, done.
Deaf.

Amp_Nut next Saturday is on sir.Will fix the time though.
Deaf.

Best trick is Deaf on the site.If you are in Mumbai.

How about people in Blore ? Now dont propose for return flight tickets..

abhi.pani schrieb:

Best trick is Deaf on the site.If you are in Mumbai. How about people in Blore ? Now dont propose for return flight tickets.. :KR

What do u expect dude? Me doing the left right all the way to your pad.Like HELL.I don't want the just the tickets, I want shelter,wine,women and you will get the song.
Deaf.

the next best thing is a first hand report from me. headed that side. will prob be dropping in. in fact deaf had sent you a pm, but it wandered way off target and ended up in cuffe parade

stevieboy schrieb:

the next best thing is a first hand report from me. headed that side. will prob be dropping in. in fact deaf had sent you a pm, but it wandered way off target and ended up in cuffe parade :D

Dude no mention of women in Cuffe Parade .
dEAF

DEAF - Miracle Man ?

Floorstander in a 9 x 9 room ?

I had the chance to audition the room & speakers yesterday.
As always when Deaf positions the speakers, the speakers dissapear.

The miracle that he has pulled off this time is that the 9x9 Room dissappeared !!

Hats off buddy... you give me the confidence to obey my family and move my stereo from my large living room, to a much smaller and almost square room ( 14 feet x 11 feet ).
Incidentally, the 9x9 room has walls treated with absorbent panels, but deaf tells me the treatment is good only for mid and high freq. It has a high ceiling, also treated. Height probably 16 feet.

The speakers were placed almost at their visual, and practical best positions... a few inches away from the corner and a few inches away from the rear wall. They were firing almost straight in the front, parallel to the side walls, infact deaf pointed out that they were toed maybe 3 to 5 degrees OUTWARDS... since the side walls were treated and would not reflet the mids and HF.

The sound stage height was good. The widyj wide to cover the full distance between the speakers, but not beyond the speakers. The Image depth was there, and nice, but not beyond the rear wall.

The speaker's mid and HF tonal character was apparent... so the room was clearly letting the speakers put out their own sound.

No bass boom. Even with complex passages, the spatial seperation ( imaging) resolved every instrument in Peter Gabriel's "US" ( ? first time I heard it ).

The system was modest, with a Marantz entry level amp that seemed atleast 3 to 5 years old, a CD changer, and Rs 20 a pair RCA interconnects, and regular mains cords that came with the equipment.

Outlandish as it may sound, Deaf, you HAVE pulled off an almost miracle.

Any one investing in an expensive system, who needs help to set up his sytem, should pay deaf for for his service... a pittance compared to what is spent and what can be achieved.

GREAT job, buddy. ( even though I know you dont drink )

Amp_Nut schrieb:

DEAF - Miracle Man ? The speakers were placed almost at their visual, and practical best positions... a few inches away from the corner and a few inches away from the rear wall. They were firing almost straight in the front, parallel to the side walls, infact deaf pointed out that they were toed maybe 3 to 5 degrees OUTWARDS... since the side walls were treated and would not reflet the mids and HF.

hats off to you Sir !. now when i think of it i can image it..but i guess you completely removed any beaming it may have done and used the dispersion pattern of the tweeter for a sweet spot ?

I presume one needs to understand not just acoustics but the dispersion behaviour of the speaker to arrive at this .

To me this is the exact answer to the difference between an audiophile and a music lover ..only an audiophile can arrive at this

(maybe i am appearing to be truly overboard here..but i would , with my quite limited knowledge, never thought of an outward toe-out..although i have experimented with tilting up of speakers to prevent floor reflections)

Arj schrieb:

now when i think of it i can image it..but i guess you completely removed any beaming it may have done and used the dispersion pattern of the tweeter for a sweet spot ?

Arj, a driver will not beam until the music signal is close to the upper end of the driver's capability. For a 6.5" Kevlar midrange that once populated a speaker I owned, the driver beamed when the signal got to be 2/3 the driver diameter - it was close to 1700Hz. Same deal with the tweeter. Tweeter beaming usually creates suck-outs in the vertical dispersion of the speaker response.

What I think Deaf has done is that he has used both direct & some fraction of the reflected sound to combine constructively at the listener's chair thereby giving the illusion of a wide sound-stage.
The toe-out has to be tweaked such that the reflected sound does not smear the overall sound at the listener's chair.
Rather than thinking of the room as his "acoustic enemy", Deaf has used it to his advantage to create the sound field.

Arj schrieb:

I presume one needs to understand not just acoustics but the dispersion behaviour of the speaker to arrive at this.

this trick should work with almost any conventional speaker that has drivers on a vertical baffle.

Arj schrieb:

To me this is the exact answer to the difference between an audiophile and a music lover ..only an audiophile can arrive at this

indeed! an audiophile would obsess about this more than a music lover, who'd be enjoying the music by that time!
Nothing wrong (or right, for that matter) - just a characteristic of the 2 groups of people.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Incidentally, the 9x9 room has walls treated with absorbent panels, but deaf tells me the treatment is good only for mid and high freq. It has a high ceiling, also treated. Height probably 16 feet.

that's right. when one treats the room one has to treat it for both acoustic velocity (mid & highs) + acoustic pressure (bass). To treat for acoustic velocity the panel needs to be away from the wall where the acoustic wave is yet in motion & has some velocity. When the acoustic wave hits the wall, there is no/heavily reduced acoustic velocity. These panels need to be quarter wavelength from the wall to be most effective. The closer they are to the wall means that they absorb only higher frequencies. Typically, these dissipative absorber panels have a higher absorption coeff with increasing freq.
To treat for acoustic pressure the treatments need to be in the corners/boundaries where the bass frequencies are reinforced. Tube traps work well for this purpose but one can have other treatments made from acoustic foam (not as effective but they do work).

For Deaf's 9'X 9'X 16' room, the axial mode resonance frequencies are 62.77Hz & 35.3Hz. the speaker is probably not sensitive to 35.3Hz as that might be below its lower -3dB point (maybe lower than it's lower -6dB point?). The speaker might be able to excite the 62.77Hz freq & its harmonics. However the harmonics have gradually decreasing power & with tweaking the speaker placement the 62.77Hz mode + harmonics could be minimized/eliminated.

Anyway, looks like Deaf's done it again! I remember his all-Gamut room at the Times AV Show in BOM which had the best sound of the show IMHO. He had used some quick & dirty sound treatments but he had used them effectively & to his advantage.

Thanks for the WEALTH of info, Bombaywalla.

I need to learn more from you, asnd I am creating a sperate Topic.... Can you please help ?

Bombaywalla said:

For Deaf's 9'X 9'X 16' room, the axial mode resonance frequencies are 62.77Hz & 35.3Hz. the speaker is probably not sensitive to 35.3Hz as that might be below its lower -3dB point (maybe lower than it's lower -6dB point?). The speaker might be able to excite the 62.77Hz freq & its harmonics. However the harmonics have gradually decreasing power & with tweaking the speaker placement the 62.77Hz mode + harmonics could be minimized/eliminated.

Can you please tell me how you claculated the above, and the implications etc, etc ?

Preferably in the other topic I have open, on this forum ?

Thanks

Amp_Nut schrieb:

DEAF - Miracle Man ? Floorstander in a 9 x 9 room ? I had the chance to audition the room & speakers yesterday. As always when Deaf positions the speakers, the speakers dissapear. The miracle that he has pulled off this time is that the 9x9 Room dissappeared !! Hats off buddy... you give me the confidence to obey my family and move my stereo from my large living room, to a much smaller and almost square room ( 14 feet x 11 feet ). Incidentally, the 9x9 room has walls treated with absorbent panels, but deaf tells me the treatment is good only for mid and high freq. It has a high ceiling, also treated. Height probably 16 feet. The speakers were placed almost at their visual, and practical best positions... a few inches away from the corner and a few inches away from the rear wall. They were firing almost straight in the front, parallel to the side walls, infact deaf pointed out that they were toed maybe 3 to 5 degrees OUTWARDS... since the side walls were treated and would not reflet the mids and HF. The sound stage height was good. The widyj wide to cover the full distance between the speakers, but not beyond the speakers. The Image depth was there, and nice, but not beyond the rear wall. The speaker's mid and HF tonal character was apparent... so the room was clearly letting the speakers put out their own sound. No bass boom. Even with complex passages, the spatial seperation ( imaging) resolved every instrument in Peter Gabriel's "US" ( ? first time I heard it ). The system was modest, with a Marantz entry level amp that seemed atleast 3 to 5 years old, a CD changer, and Rs 20 a pair RCA interconnects, and regular mains cords that came with the equipment. Outlandish as it may sound, Deaf, you HAVE pulled off an almost miracle. Any one investing in an expensive system, who needs help to set up his sytem, should pay deaf for for his service... a pittance compared to what is spent and what can be achieved. GREAT job, buddy. ( even though I know you dont drink )

DITTO! DITTO! DITTO!

I came in as soon as amp_nut left. And yes, was I astonished. A pair of giant floorstanders in a miniscule room. Deaf did the David Copperfield thing by making them D-I-S-A-P-P-E-A-R! Peter Gabriel who goes wayyy down (where a lot of subwoofers dare to go) sounded absolutely flawless... there wasn't a wee bit of boom in the room.
What's more, the treatment just added to the imaging magic. On one track (can't recall the name - deaf, can u help here?)I thought I was listening to a multichannel setup - the front image was all there and some 'ambience' too. Superb! Deaf sure knows his stuff. And how.

I am sure it sounded great;
Deaf is a 'king' installer'

Deaf I wonder why is it that you could not make the same happen with the XN 360 ? We could never make the boom go away !!!! Nor did they disappear ? Room was 200 + sq. ft.

To add. After leaving the "square room", Deaf invited me over to his place for a very different listening experience - a taste of neutrality - his own DIY project. Deaf has conceived something (what I think is) totally unconventional with a pair of "box-less" speakers. While they could easily pass off as exotic hifi, Deaf assured me that all the materials used in this project are budget components.

True, it was still a work in progress and my ears aren't really used to 'neutrality', a certain drum track he played for me sounded very very "live"! Not warm, not mellow, not comfortable to the ears but certainly close to a live performance. If this is not high fidelity, what is?

Deaf, your finest hour is yet to come. I don't like that dead-cold neutral sound, but you sir, I salute!

Dear Amp_Nut and Shahrukh,
Thank you for you kind words.Shahrukh I will complete the DIY speaker ASAP, because your positiveness have encouraged me to do so,thank you Sir.The track you heard was SIGNAL TO NOISE.I thank you gents again.
Regards Deaf.