The World's Best . 2006 ?

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Beitrag
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#1 erstellt: 20. Jan 2007, 16:05
I know that I am on thin ice here....

I would like to declare the Audio Research ARC Reference 3 Pre amp as

'The World's Best Pre Amp 2006."

Have I heard it ? NO

Then Why ??

Because Absolute Sound and Stereophile ( My some referred to as diametrically opposite paragons of Subjectivists vs Objectivists seem to have concurred...

Any Other nominations ? Welcome, but do support them with yr arguments... even if they are more obtuse than mine

Would also appreciate other nominations .... Best Integrated - 2006, Best Power Amp 2006, Best CD Player -2006... or whatever.

Would be useful in highlighting great Hi Fi products of 2006.

Thanks
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#2 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 02:41

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I know that I am on thin ice here....

how about wafer thin ice???



Amp_Nut schrieb:

I would like to declare the Audio Research ARC Reference 3 Pre amp as

'The World's Best Pre Amp 2006."

I can't believe that you actually did this! For all the great posts you have made showing us your technical knowledge in this field & all the other level-headed posts you have made in a myriad of topics, I was actually looking up to you. Then, you go & do this........


Amp_Nut schrieb:

Have I heard it ? NO

Then Why ??

Because Absolute Sound and Stereophile ( My some referred to as diametrically opposite paragons of Subjectivists vs Objectivists seem to have concurred...

oh no!!!
not because of these 2 glossy rags!
Have you been reading TAS for any length of time? I have been reading them fairly regularly for the last 5 yrs & I've noticed that they have never found any Audio Research unit to be bad sounding! Now, isn't that weird? Every ARC unit they could lay their hands on was great sounding! TAS has time & again declared ARC gear to their favourite. Meesa thinks that TAS has a soft corner for ARC & that "daal main kuch kaala zaroor hai".
TAS has appauled CJ gear & gear from Rowland & other "heavy weights such as Mark Levinson but the "best sounding" gear always goes to ARC. Funny, how that spot appears to be reserved!
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 04:04
Hi Bombaywalla,

Nice to see a response to my post ... even though its Vitrolic !

My post was INTENDED to PROVOKE Reactions... unfortunately it has not kick started a thread I was hoping for ... where others post their Fav new equipment for WHATEVER ( even outrageous, like my post ) reason.

Actually, I RARELY read TAS... several reasons...
TOO Subjective,
TOO Darn expensive by airmail,
Too many reviewers, so cant fix where each is comming from ...
And yes... they have their Favs..

I do Read Stereophile, and even have a subscription ( though their international subscription service is the PITTS )
And I like Stereophile for the following reasons ( Though there is NO Bible for me, except my OWN ears... I even thend to disagree with audiophile pals more often than not ):

It carries detailed Objective Tests
Relatively few reviewers, hence easier to know their biases
Reasonably priced by Airmail ( atleast WAS )


I agree with you on the "daal main kuch kaala zaroor hai" because otherwise Stereophile almost Never even reviews ARC gear... maybe this is their apology statement ?

Anyways, guys & Bombaywalla.... I think you get my drift... This thread is for thoose who dream and drool on Hi-End Fi...

Do share your dreams here ....

Thanks !


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 23. Jan 2007, 04:07 bearbeitet]
bhagwan69
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 08:33
Interesting Topic.

I am not so sure if I could comment !!!


Would love read the reactions and suggestion of fellow forum members first........
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#5 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 09:13
Come on guys !

I have already thrown the 1st Stone.

Just list the Hi Fi Gear that you would ASPIRE or evn LUST To Own...
stevieboy
Stammgast
#6 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 09:39
i'd like to try out a wavac set or one of their ilk if i really had the dough. i'd actually lust to have a room built to specification. treated with a nice bookshelf and only one chair and i'd whack a do not disturb sign from a hotel
bhagwan69
Inventar
#7 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 11:09
Avalon Isis for sure.

Rockport Technology Speakers [any model will do - except the Mira]

Just to site a few.

Can go on and on actually.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 13:20
bhagwan 69 said


Can go on and on actually.


Please do ...

A few words on what you particularly like about each piece of equipment ( neutral, Awesome bass ... though I Know U are NOT a bass freak .. or simly drop dead georgeous looks ... )

Thanks

( I suspect that Diana Krall does entice some with her 'Eye Candy' value )
Manek
Inventar
#9 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 15:26
Definately one of Kondo san's creations like the M77 preamp ? and the more closer to home canasya's.

Manek.
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#10 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 15:36

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Hi Bombaywalla,

Nice to see a response to my post ... even though its Vitrolic !


Hi Amp_Nut, my reply was not supposed to be vitriolic rather one of disbelief & sarcasm.


Amp_Nut schrieb:

Actually, I RARELY read TAS... several reasons...
TOO Subjective,
TOO Darn expensive by airmail,
Too many reviewers, so cant fix where each is comming from ...
And yes... they have their Favs..

yup! they are expensive here too! Fortunately one can go to a book sellers shop & read it over a cup of coffee.


Amp_Nut schrieb:

I do Read Stereophile, and even have a subscription ( though their international subscription service is the PITTS )
And I like Stereophile for the following reasons ( Though there is NO Bible for me, except my OWN ears... I even thend to disagree with audiophile pals more often than not ):

It carries detailed Objective Tests

you are joking, right? If JA knew how to test some the equipment that he got his hands on, maybe he wouldn't have trashed some of the equipment that he has in the past & he would also have learnt better that what he's testing often has very little correlation to what he's hearing!

All that I can say is that it's got some test & measurement results. Sometimes JA explains how he has setup the measurement equipment & what he is trying to measure. Most of the time this (critical) info is missing, which renders most of his measurements useless. From my personal experience, setting up lab equipment & measuring conditions are often more important than the measured results because the former heavily influences what measured results you actually get. So, I've found, that there is as much science & art to this topic.



Amp_Nut schrieb:

I agree with you on the "daal main kuch kaala zaroor hai" because otherwise Stereophile almost Never even reviews ARC gear... maybe this is their apology statement ?

perhaps! I've seen ARC VT55, CD3 & a few other pieces reviewed recently. However, it never reaches the zenith that TAS gives the product.


Amp_Nut schrieb:

Anyways, guys & Bombaywalla.... I think you get my drift... This thread is for thoose who dream and drool on Hi-End Fi...

Do share your dreams here ....

Thanks !

I have no problem with this at all & in fact wished that your thread had been titled so. A lot more could have passed thru.....


Anyway, my reply is in a friendly way (including my 1st/original post). If you were offended, my apologies to you.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#11 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 17:34
Bombaywalla said:

I have no problem with this at all & in fact wished that your thread had been titled so.

I guess you are right on that ....

First of all, no offence taken or implied :-)

About the corelation between Measured performance and subjective valuations.... do you know of another magazine / e-zine that does better ? I have always found co-relations to be tough, though I have my own 'yardsticks.'
Any pointers... Much appreciated.

For International Air Mail subscribers, Ab Sound was about 6 TIMES more expensive to Stereophile... that did not correlate to their respective cover prices.

I even wrote to Ab Sound, and tghey (surprisingly ) replied... sympathy but same price.

Bombaywalla, did you attend the CES 2007 ?

Any Particularly note-worthy product that you maybe even read about ?
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#12 erstellt: 23. Jan 2007, 18:48

Amp_Nut schrieb:
....

First of all, no offence taken or implied :-)

cool, chief! I'm happy to read that.



Amp_Nut schrieb:

About the corelation between Measured performance and subjective valuations.... do you know of another magazine / e-zine that does better ? I have always found co-relations to be tough, though I have my own 'yardsticks.'
Any pointers... Much appreciated.

I don't know whether this is better or not but www.soundstage.com also has measurements for electronics & speakers. The speakers seem to be measured independently at the Canadian facility per some standards. These measurements do not have waterfall plots & vertical dispersion plots like Stereophile.
The issue I have w/ Stereophile is that sometimes he takes measurements in an incorrect way that gives a misleading judgement to a product. How he measures the stuff & his step-up are not disclosed so one is unable to discount for those items. Even if the measurements were incorrectly taken but the process & conditions were explained, one could better understand the context of the measurement & draw one's own conclusions.


Amp_Nut schrieb:

For International Air Mail subscribers, Ab Sound was about 6 TIMES more expensive to Stereophile... that did not correlate to their respective cover prices.

I even wrote to Ab Sound, and tghey (surprisingly ) replied... sympathy but same price.

I do not doubt you, Amp_Nut.
Also, I was not advocating that you buy a TAS subscription. BTW, I thought that TAS was better with Harry Pearson at the helm than the present editor. Just my opinion.


Amp_Nut schrieb:

Bombaywalla, did you attend the CES 2007 ?

no I did not! I don't think that I'll have that luxury for some time to come.



Amp_Nut schrieb:

Any Particularly note-worthy product that you maybe even read about ?

not really. Like Manek, Kondo-san's creations intrigue me a lot. SOmeday I'll get to hear some/one of his equipment. I've heard very good things about them & they seem to be well regarded in the industry by several manuf. From what I understand, Kondo-san knew what he was doing & was exploring the "correct" avenues to better sound. Too bad that he is not with us any more.
Other than that what I'm finding out is that the high-priced stuff out there that is (heavily) advertised is rarely worth its price & its performance is rarely what is expected out of it. The better sounding gear is made by serious hobbyists & small-time companies where far more technical thought is given to addressing the design of audio gear. However, these places are not in the game to make money but to see music reproduced in its truer form. I.E. it's not a commercial venture & even if it is, it's a side business.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#13 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 03:59


I don't know whether this is better or not but www.soundstage.com also has measurements for electronics & speakers.


I just went over to that site and checked out the reviews of the Krell Intergrated and the Rogue Audio Pre...

No measurement details....

Am I looking in the wrong section ?
ani
Stammgast
#14 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 06:12
Ampnut,

they dont give measurment for along with all the test reports.

Anil
purnendu
Stammgast
#15 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 07:11
Fellow Idiots,
If its simply a question of drooling, then I think I would go for a turntable. What about the Indian Vyger. Looks obscene, obviously I have never seen or heard it and never will. But then may be I will settle for something less. Why not the SME V tonearm on my Project xpression turntable. It would be the first of its kind, surely. That it, I shall happily settle for an SME tone arm,even the humble 309. Its kind of macho without being obscene. the SME TT are repulsive. The other extreme are the LaLuce tts, ever so dainty and pretty. One has to find the right balance.
Purnendu
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#16 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 07:58
Ani said


they dont give measurment for along with all the test reports.

Bombaywalla, I have browsed through quite a few reviews of Amplification products on www.soundstage.com

Not found any tech reports.

Could you please give a link of a nice amplification ( Pre or Power Amp ) review, with a test report, and where there is some effort in the report to co-relate the 2 ?

Thanks
ani
Stammgast
#17 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 08:14


[Beitrag von ani am 24. Jan 2007, 08:15 bearbeitet]
square_wave
Inventar
#18 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 09:14

bombaywalla schrieb:
The better sounding gear is made by serious hobbyists & small-time companies where far more technical thought is given to addressing the design of audio gear. However, these places are not in the game to make money but to see music reproduced in its truer form. I.E. it's not a commercial venture & even if it is, it's a side business.


Some companies who may fit into this category: Correct me if I am wrong.

Blue circle.
Living voice.
Audio note
Green Mountain audio
Dartzeel
Pass Labs
Cary audio
VTL
Salk audio
Vandersteen
storchi07
Hat sich gelöscht
#19 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 09:30
best integrated amp ever (imo): arcam diva a90.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#20 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 09:41
Incidentally, there is also a monster Integrated by Krell FBP 600 or simeting like that ... priced at US $ 16,000

Jeff Rowland has a more 'moderately' priced Integrated based on their switching amps for around US $ 4,000 or there abouts.

Ofcourse Price is Not a guarantee of sound quality... neither is the pedigree...
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#21 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 11:04
Ani Said:


http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/belcanto_ref1000.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/nad_c372.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/rogueaudio_tempest_ii.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/arc_reference3/
http://www.soundstageav.com/audiovideoreviews.html

from the above link you can select the ones with BHK tag to get ones with measurments.


Thanks a TON Ani and to you, Bombaywalla. I like the site, and will certainly read up some more... though I hate reading hobby stuff on a PC, sitting upright ...


Anil, The reviews that you have suggested, each struck a special interest. I suspect you have hand picked ... and Handpicked WELL !
Thanks again.

One of the links that you have marked is the Audio Research ARC Reference 3 Pre amp... which I used to Kick Start / Provoke this thread.

I was particularly interested to see how Bombaywalla's recommended site rated this Pre...

Unfortunately, I can access only the Long Preamble... Part-I

I'm waiting for next month's ( feb Issue ) to talk of the product's sound quality.


Bombaywalla: I have read the Tests section and must say that I disagree with you. Their tests are presented even more " In Your Face For Whatever Its Worth".... Frankly, I feel that Stereophile does a FAR beter job in presenting its tests...

Ofcourse my impression is based only on the links provided by Anil... that too for amplification products.

A Great case are the tech measurements for the NAD C372 Integrated Amplifier.

There is SO MUCH that the graphs infer, but NOTHING - Not ONE Word, has been said by the author in terms of interpreting the figures. Pity, and a waste...

Anyways, the site is Great.

Cheers
ani
Stammgast
#22 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 12:19
Ampnut,

You dont have to wait till feb for the complete review on ARC REF 3 MK2 it is here http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/arc_reference3/index2.html

They were picked up because I consider them as interseting products?

Why beacuse of the reviews

Warm regards

Anil
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#23 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 12:38
THANKS Ani.

The concluding line of the ARC Pre review states...

"The membership of the Association of Great Preamps is small (the Great Amp Guild's is even smaller), but the Reference 3 is the newest inductee, joining a number of its ancestors."

Amp_Nut
Inventar
#24 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 12:46


Amp_Nut wrote:

I agree with you on the "daal main kuch kaala zaroor hai" because otherwise Stereophile almost Never even reviews ARC gear... maybe this is their apology statement ?

Bombaywalla Wrote


perhaps! I've seen ARC VT55, CD3 & a few other pieces reviewed recently. However, it never reaches the zenith that TAS gives the product.




I checked to verify my original statement that ARC products are less than often reviewed by Stereophile.

For ARC Preamps.... the reviews are:
1997, 2003 and now ( 2006 end )

For ARC Power Amps
1987 & 2003.
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#25 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 15:07

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Ani said


they dont give measurment for along with all the test reports.

Bombaywalla, I have browsed through quite a few reviews of Amplification products on www.soundstage.com

Not found any tech reports.

Could you please give a link of a nice amplification ( Pre or Power Amp ) review, with a test report, and where there is some effort in the report to co-relate the 2 ?

Thanks


Amp_Nut,
here is a link to a review of the new Einstein preamp (that many are drooling over). See the link to the measurements under the words "Innovation Design"?
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/einstein_the_tube.htm
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#26 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 15:25

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Bombaywalla: I have read the Tests section and must say that I disagree with you. Their tests are presented even more " In Your Face For Whatever Its Worth".... Frankly, I feel that Stereophile does a FAR beter job in presenting its tests...

Ofcourse my impression is based only on the links provided by Anil... that too for amplification products.

A Great case are the tech measurements for the NAD C372 Integrated Amplifier.

There is SO MUCH that the graphs infer, but NOTHING - Not ONE Word, has been said by the author in terms of interpreting the figures. Pity, and a waste...

Anyways, the site is Great.

Cheers :prost


Well, I did mention in my earlier post that I did not know whether you'd consider SoundStage better or not w.r.t. measurements. Remember?

I agree that Stereophile's presentation is much better (Stereophile is also better endowed w/ audio company's advertising money, which is the precise reason that they speak from both sides of their mouth thereby making their reviews practically meaningless! )
Anyway, it's another site for you to read some semi-techical reviews other than S'phile. you can always print the material & read it at your leisure.

Re. the interpretation: I think that they are leaving this up to the reader. I also believe (having 1 reviewer in our audio society here & having heard some of the things that go on in the reviewer industry) that no reviewer is going to stick his neck out. ALso, I understand that if the reviewer does stick his neck out, the editor & publisher remove his non-favourable comments before the final print is made. Believe it or not! This is what our audio society member has told us because it has happened to him 1st-hand. It has come to the point, he tells us, that many audio companies will not send him gear to review because he calls a spade, a spade in his reviews & it is not good business for the audio company nor to his magazine's reputation. Believe it or not!
So, if this is happening in this low-profile audio magazine guess what is happening in the higher profile ones like TAS & Stereophile & Hi-Fi NEws & Record??

It is also 1 reason that you find very few magazines that offer any measurements at all & those that do interpret the very obvious & leave the subtlties alone. You only find out how crappy the gear is once you listen to it yourself OR when you make the mistake of buying it on Stereophile's recommendation!!

From that perspective, I prefer SoundStage - give me the measurements & tell me how you made them & I will interpret them myself.
Rather than reading the rambling & misleading text written in Stereophile which is written smartly enough to fool the unsuspecting readers.
Of course, just my opinion, FWIW!
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#27 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 16:56
Hi Bombawalla,

A nice looong post with so many issues you have touched on, that I just HAVE to respond to ... So here goes :

1. First of all, let me declare where I come from.. and what puts food on my table :

I edit & publish a trade magazine on Cable TV.

I also organise an annual Cable TV Tradeshow

Whew.. that said... to respond some interesting points :



I agree that Stereophile's presentation is much better (Stereophile is also better endowed w/ audio company's advertising money, which is the precise reason that they speak from both sides of their mouth thereby making their reviews practically meaningless! )


www.soundstage.com also has TONS of ads... DONT underestimate an e-zine. They dont have ANY material costs like paper, and all revenues are clean profits ( almost ) after paying salaries and sometimes the office rent ( many dont need / have an office ! )

e-zines are Equally attracted / influenced by ads... Infact I have heard FAR worse horror stories of small time e-zines holding brands to ransom...




Re. the interpretation: I think that they are leaving this up to the reader.


With all due respect to 'Readers'.. most dont know an Ohm from a Farad. Specialist mags need to provide the Technical fare, almost pre-chewed and ready to digest.... I have been editing my mag for over 10 years !



I also believe (having 1 reviewer in our audio society here & having heard some of the things that go on in the reviewer industry) that no reviewer is going to stick his neck out. ALso, I understand that if the reviewer does stick his neck out, the editor & publisher remove his non-favourable comments before the final print is made. Believe it or not! This is what our audio society member has told us because it has happened to him 1st-hand. It has come to the point, he tells us, that many audio companies will not send him gear to review because he calls a spade, a spade in his reviews & it is not good business for the audio company nor to his magazine's reputation. Believe it or not!


I Believe it... 100%,

This guy probably is calling a spade a SHOVEL. He does not know how to hold his company's business... shouldn't all employees ? ( I know this IS a provocative statement ) .

Actually, just as a reviewer should now How to PRESENT the FACTs, a good, Intelligent reader should know how to READ the TRUTH.

Read the text carefully, and see what the reviewer is NOT saying... For example, has he NOT made any comment about 'Tight Bass' ? Did he say the amp sounds VERY smooth and needs to be partnered carefully ?



So, if this is happening in this low-profile audio magazine guess what is happening in the higher profile ones like TAS & Stereophile & Hi-Fi NEws & Record??


I concur... A couple of months ago, I had put a thread on this forum and on the STEREOPHILE Forum "How Many Audiophiles Are There Worldwide" or something to that effect.

On the S'phile forum I suggested that a Good starting point would be to look at the Circulation figures of S'phile & TAS. That may be a pointer for the US market.

I was shocked... the ENTIRE Thread was Removed from the Stereophile forum, like it was never posted !

Now in the magazine business, circulation and print run figures are like asking a lady ( a Middle Aged lady ) her age. Still.......



It is also 1 reason that you find very few magazines that offer any measurements at all & those that do interpret the very obvious & leave the subtlties alone. You only find out how crappy the gear is once you listen to it yourself OR when you make the mistake of buying it on Stereophile's recommendation!!




Again I would suggest my tip on HOW to read a review. If a person does not READ well, and blindly puts his money on the table .... Who's fault is it ?




Rather than reading the rambling & misleading text written in Stereophile which is written smartly enough to fool the unsuspecting readers.
Of course, just my opinion, FWIW!



I agree... again.

The Stereophile review of the US $ 70,000 Chord Power Amp (last year) that put out 50% of its claimed power... JA did just that, and I highlighted that on the S'phile forum, with JA trying to smooth the sand around his feet...



[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 25. Jan 2007, 11:55 bearbeitet]
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#28 erstellt: 24. Jan 2007, 20:45

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Hi Bombawalla,

A nice looong post with so many issues you have touched on, that I just HAVE to respond to ... So here goes :

1. First of all, let me declare where I come from.. and what puts food on my table :

I edit & publish India's largest Trade magazine on Cable TV. Its (unimaginatively ? ) called " Satellite & Cable TV" (www.scatmag.com)

I also organise India's largest annual Cable TV Tradeshow ( ww.scatindia.com)

Hi Amp_Nut,
thanx for sharing w/ us your profession details. I don't know if it was called for but thanks for your candor.
I didn't realize that you were in the magazine business, I would have railed less on the audio magazines!


Amp_Nut schrieb:

www.soundstage.com also has TONS of ads... DONT underestimate an e-zine. They dont have ANY material costs like paper, and all revenues are clean profits ( almost ) after paying salaries and sometimes the office rent ( many dont need / have an office ! )

e-zines are Equally attracted / influenced by ads... Infact I have heard FAR worse horror stories of small time e-zines holding brands to ransom...

I believe you. If I lead you (or any reader) that I hold soundstage.com's reviews in higher esteem than S'phile, my bad! I do not!
I merely pointed to another e-zine that provides measurements.
Anyway, over the many yrs that I have been reading soundstage, I have actually read reviews by some of their staff that say in as many words that the product reviewed is mediocre! No kidding! I cannot remember the exact product right now but if I come across it again, I'll be sure to share it w/ you (all).
Au contraire, I have never seen this from Stereophile. Maybe they are smarter or saavier journalists, I don't know? In my books, they are certainly running far more scared & more politician-like.


Amp_Nut schrieb:

With all due respect to 'Readers'.. most dont know an Ohm from a Farad. Specialist mags need to provide the Technical fare, almost pre-chewed and ready to digest.... I have been editing my mag for over 10 years !

I can use this argument against you! If the magazines feel that they are required to pre-chew the technical stuff before feeding it to their readers, then, why do they not feel that they need to call a spade, a spade for mediocre & low-grade stuff?
why does it work only 1 way?
For people PAYING to read the magazine, the truth (positive & negative) should be laid bare.
This will also help the manuf (esp. in audio) wherein they will realize that you cannot manuf any garbage & feed it to the public 'cuz it will not be accepted by them!
It'll be a (global) negative feedback loop between us consumers & them manuf ensuring that each gets the best for their resp monies.


Amp_Nut schrieb:

This guy probably is calling a spade a SHOVEL. He does not know how to hold his company's business... shouldn't all employees ? ( I know this IS a provocative statement ).

Maybe not as bad as this. He is still employed w/ that magazine. He still does hardware reviews & is adding other items to his repertoire.


Amp_Nut schrieb:

Actually, just as a reviewer should now How to PRESENT the FACTs, a good, Intelligent reader should know how to READ the TRUTH.

Read the text carefully, and see what the reviewer is NOT saying... For example, has he NOT made any comment about 'Tight Bass' ? Did he say the amp sounds VERY smooth and needs to be partnered carefully ?

I, and many other readers, as it is amply clear to all of us now, would like the magazines to just tell it like it is - if it's good, write it so & if it is a POS, write it so.
No dual standards - when it is good gear, the choicest adjectives fly out of the dictionary to pepper the write-up & when it is bad gear, the author plays mind-games & hide-seek with words & uses subtlties to inform us that the performance is mediocre.


Amp_Nut schrieb:


I concur... A couple of months ago, I had put a thread on this forum and on the STEREOPHILE Forum "How Many Audiophiles Are There Worldwide" or something to that effect.

On the S'phile forum I suggested that a Good starting point would be to look at the Circulation figures of S'phile & TAS. That may be a pointer for the US market.

I was shocked... the ENTIRE Thread was Removed from the Stereophile forum, like it was never posted !

I believe you. I've had atleast 2 threads removed from Audiogon as they were not good business for some very hi-end manuf selling on that site.
These mega-buck pieces of gear just did not sound good enough for even half their retail prices. Needless to say, some or all complained to Audiogon & off went my threads!


Amp_Nut schrieb:


The Stereophile review of the US $ 70,000 Chord Power Amp (last year) that put out 50% of its claimed power... JA did just that, and I highlighted that on the S'phile forum, with JA trying to smooth the sand around his feet...

:prost

I have this review at home (can you believe that I actually paid money for a Stereopile, errrrr....Stereophile subscription! ). I should read it! I blew it off completely when I saw the ludicrous price of the amp.
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#29 erstellt: 25. Jan 2007, 04:38
Bombaywalla said:



For people PAYING to read the magazine, the truth (positive & negative) should be laid bare.


This is an often said, ( but untrue) self serving statement by 'PAYING' subscribers.

The stark FACT is that the subscription often does not even cover the cost of printing + Paper + Distribution of the magazine . ( for newspapers it usually does not even cover the cost of BLANK paper )

The money to run and sustain the business and keep the next issue comming out, comes from Advertisments

The subscription amount can be seen as a TOKEN payment by a potential reader, as a commitment to read atleast part of each issue.

The subscriber's biggest contribution is Not the pennies paid but the Reading of the contents (including the ads ).

Hence the fact whether the zine is free or subscription paid makes Very little difference to the venture's revenue model...

Tough to swallow for most... but true.
Neutral
Stammgast
#30 erstellt: 28. Jan 2007, 21:34
For the benefit of ignorant, unknowledgeable, pathetic, and weak-minded obsessed audiophiles (like myself a year or two ago), a gentleman called Arthur Salvatore has launched a one-man crusade to expose the underbelly of the so-called 'hifi press'.
http://www.high-endaudio.com/
The most interesting part of this website is a section called Reviewing the Reviewers:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/reviewers.html
A must read for all audiophiles, besides the technical stuff that you two gurus spout

I really feel sad when I think that I have around 30 audio magazines (mostly avmax) which I purchased thinking that it would make me an instant 'guru' on audio. I was so much under their spell that I really wonder what made me listen to my system before buying it
when all the juicy drool about the best systems (worth selling your kidney for ) was laid out right in front of me?

Let's face it guys. All newcomers (with a few exceptions) to the audiophile world are going to base their purchasing decision on one or more of:
1. What their equally ignorant friends say
2. What publication 'experts' say
3. What the audio salesmen at the showrooms tell them they are hearing (attended a Bose demo anyone?)

How could any newcomer possibly be able to judge equipment correctly when veterans like me are struggling to build critical skills? If you two know of any software that can help develop listening skills, do post it here
Otherwise, we are at the mercy of the cutthroat mags
Arj
Inventar
#31 erstellt: 29. Jan 2007, 03:39

Neutral schrieb:
For the benefit of ignorant, unknowledgeable, pathetic, and weak-minded obsessed audiophiles (like myself a year or two ago), a gentleman called Arthur Salvatore has launched a one-man crusade to expose the underbelly of the so-called 'hifi press'.
http://www.high-endaudio.com/
The most interesting part of this website is a section called Reviewing the Reviewers:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/reviewers.html
A must read for all audiophiles, besides the technical stuff that you two gurus spout

I really feel sad when I think that I have around 30 audio magazines (mostly avmax) which I purchased thinking that it would make me an instant 'guru' on audio. I was so much under their spell that I really wonder what made me listen to my system before buying it
when all the juicy drool about the best systems (worth selling your kidney for ) was laid out right in front of me?

Let's face it guys. All newcomers (with a few exceptions) to the audiophile world are going to base their purchasing decision on one or more of:
1. What their equally ignorant friends say
2. What publication 'experts' say
3. What the audio salesmen at the showrooms tell them they are hearing (attended a Bose demo anyone?)

How could any newcomer possibly be able to judge equipment correctly when veterans like me are struggling to build critical skills? If you two know of any software that can help develop listening skills, do post it here
Otherwise, we are at the mercy of the cutthroat mags :cut

Well..the entire world from toothpaste to Icecreams to Cars is full of media induced shameless plugins for products/Technologies.

no one to define what one likes that oneslf..many get influenced by the media, but find hapiness in products all the same !!
a Good example quoted by a very esteemed professor during a course on Marketing/Brand Management ages ago was a famous Savalon Vs Dettol Saga

UNilevers Introduces Dettol as an Antispetic..only problem being it really stings.

P&G launches Savalon which is as good and also does not sting.

As a result of a successful marketing Campaign, All of us consumers take to Dettol and bury Savalon as Dettols "Sting" is taken as p[roof for its effectiveness in killing germs while savalons lack of sting means that is is not as strong !!!
Arj
Inventar
#32 erstellt: 29. Jan 2007, 03:43

Neutral schrieb:
If you two know of any software that can help develop listening skills, do post it here
Otherwise, we are at the mercy of the cutthroat mags :cut



doubt if there is any software ...and usually evryone would reccomend the long and winding journey of "Eperience"..but I could suggest the Chesky "Ultimate Deomonstration disk" as it has a quite a few audiophile trackes and some comments before each track on what to listen for in each.

To someone entering this hobby it could be very useful
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#33 erstellt: 29. Jan 2007, 04:26

Neutral schrieb:

.....you two gurus spout.....

I *think* that you are referring to Amp_Nut & myself here?
Looks like a post that is damning with faint praise & an appropriate reply is in order........


Neutral schrieb:
For the benefit of ignorant, unknowledgeable, pathetic, and weak-minded obsessed audiophiles (like myself a year or two ago), a gentleman called Arthur Salvatore has launched a one-man crusade to expose the underbelly of the so-called 'hifi press'.
http://www.high-endaudio.com/
The most interesting part of this website is a section called Reviewing the Reviewers:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/reviewers.html
A must read for all audiophiles, besides the technical stuff that you two gurus spout

yes, I'm very much aware of Art Salvatore's website. I've been reading it for a while now. I've read many of his posts, comments, 2nd-hand reviews (i.e. opinions of his friends, who he trusts, posted oin his website). There is a a lot of good stuff there to read & digest.
However, to call Art Salvatore a "gentleman" is ridiculous! JA & Art S are like oil & water. There is much venom in Art Salvatore's words when it comes to addressing JA or anything Stereophile related.
Make no mistake, Art Salvatore has his own agenda. He might be less biased than the audio press but he is no knight in shining armour.


Neutral schrieb:

I really feel sad when I think that I have around 30 audio magazines (mostly avmax) which I purchased thinking that it would make me an instant 'guru' on audio. I was so much under their spell........

yup! to use your own words against you, you were quite "ignorant, unknowledgeable, pathetic, and weak-minded obsessed audiophile"!


Neutral schrieb:

that I really wonder what made me listen to my system before buying it
when all the juicy drool about the best systems (worth selling your kidney for ) was laid out right in front of me?

this is quite a contradiction & quite commendable of you. I do tip my hat to you.


Neutral schrieb:

Let's face it guys. All newcomers (with a few exceptions) to the audiophile world are going to base their purchasing decision on one or more of:
1. What their equally ignorant friends say
2. What publication 'experts' say
3. What the audio salesmen at the showrooms tell them they are hearing (attended a Bose demo anyone?)

How could any newcomer possibly be able to judge equipment correctly when veterans like me are struggling to build critical skills?

To some degree audio forums can help guide the misguided or disillusioned. Audio forums are not the answer but just the beginning as it gets dialog going & invariably ends with "go to the store & listen for yourself" OR "get the equipment home to audition in your own system". Often neither of these is possible in which case, that consumer is (unfortunately) at the mercy of the above 3 options you listed. I don't think that there will ever be a cure for such a situation. If the person wants some good sounding equipment (& good sounding equipment does NOT have to be expensive) then much effort needs to be put in. Some options (if auditions are not possible) is to (1) try to get yourself to an audio show where you could meet the sales/distribution/importer people. Networking with them might open up a posibility that was not thought of (2) try to become friends with somebody in your city who has some audio gear & might have listening tastes similar to yours, (3) find out if there is an audio society (formal or informal) that you could be a member of. As some of the members churn equipment you might get to hear more stuff than you imagined originally.


Neutral schrieb:

If you two know of any software that can help develop listening skills, do post it here
Otherwise, we are at the mercy of the cutthroat mags :cut

Judging equipment is a matter of exprience rather than a matter of using software to develop the skills. Software can be used to ratify the skills but the learning has to be done elsewhere. 1st question to ask yourself is why are you into audio? Is it the (eye-candy) gear? is it purely the music? is it accurate reproduction of music? is it a status symbol? is it something else?
Learning can be done by going to live concerts & understanding how real instruments sound, how hall position changes the sound at the listening chair.
Basically, listening skills are developed by concentrating on 1-2 aspects of the overall sound or the instrument. You cannot take everything in all at once - you'll end up with nothing! - you need to focus on a very small subset of the sound. Hence, skills take a long time & it is a continuous process of learning. Many people hear but do not listen. Listening is a deliberate effort & is taking hearing to the next level. When you listen, you connect with your emotions. When you connect with your emotions, you learn. It's *almost* like meditation - not quite as intense & I do not want to make listening to be something on a similar plane as the vaunted state of meditation but you are on that same path.
As you get better at listening & your mind & ears know what to look for, listening becomes easier. It's difficult at 1st but like anything else it becomes easier & takes less energy to get your brain/mind in/out of the listening state.

Long-winded answer & much babbling FWIW. I hope that it sheds some light onto your asked questions.
square_wave
Inventar
#34 erstellt: 29. Jan 2007, 08:51
Was anybody able to get to the recommended components list on this site ?
http://www.high-endaudio.com/
If so, can you post the link ?
I tried but the link is not opening anything. Do we have to pay for the list or something ?
bhagwan69
Inventar
#35 erstellt: 29. Jan 2007, 10:33
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Digital.html

WADIA 861 CD PLAYER- This player is probably the finest overall CD player now in existence. It is extremely well built (50 lbs.) and it is also very versatile. According to one of my associates,, it has no obvious sonic flaws, including "digital highs". More to come.

I could surely have a very very different point of view.
I have owned this player and there is a lot more out there that may [in my opinion] superseed it and that too in a big manner.
bhagwan69
Inventar
#36 erstellt: 29. Jan 2007, 10:38
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-SpkrCab.html

WIREWORLD GOLD & SILVER ECLIPSE III- These are among the finest speaker cables I know of manufactured today. The Silver is exactly one half of the Gold. Unfortunately, both are a lot of money, especially the Gold, which is double the price of the Silver. They are also very stiff and difficult to work with, but that is only an issue if you are constantly changing components or positions. Considering it took 20 years to even approach the reference cable (Polk), I don’t have much hope for improvement in the future.

Here again - I have owned the Wireworld Cables.
Great Cables - VFM for sure. However very very far from what cables can do. P.S. I still have a Super Eclipse 5 Balanced for sale - just wanted to bring it to the kind attention.

My Synopsis;
Ever person is 'bias'
Not commercially always, but in ones choices - sonically. After all this is a very very subjective hobby.
The chap on this site loved the AG's and I cannot stand them. What does that infer ? Can he 'hear' better than me ? Maybe, but I have auditioned the AG's [Avant Garde] many a times in different countries, fully blown set ups [trio + bass horn and all] and it is no way in reference territory IMHO. Sorry.....[FH i.e.] Sound of Music [Indian Distributor]

bombaywalla
Stammgast
#37 erstellt: 29. Jan 2007, 15:27

bhagwan69 schrieb:

My Synopsis;
Ever person is 'bias'
Not commercially always, but in ones choices - sonically. After all this is a very very subjective hobby.


exactly!!
And, this corroborates my point that Art Salvatore is no knight in shining armour when it comes to his recommendations of audio gear.
He is very much like Stereophile or TAS or SoundStage or any other audio magazine except that he has no ads & no formal publication.
However, he has his own biases.
So, read his website, digest the info but take it w/ a grain of salt.

The thing is: do you personally know Art Salvatore? Do you that he listens like you do? Do you like his choice in music?
If the answer is sound "yes" to all these questions, then I think that you can bet on his choice of equipment.
Otherwise, his recommedations are just as good as Art Dudley's or Michael Fremer's or Robert Harley's.
what's the difference?
less ads make him more authorative in recommending audio gear?
Neutral
Stammgast
#38 erstellt: 29. Jan 2007, 17:18
I am not speaking of his recommendation abilities. Just the fact that Arthur Salvatore is willing to do the very unpleasant task of exposing the "audio press".

I apologise for implying that fellow audiophiles were weak minded. I was really speaking of myself (to have trusted mags so implicitly) But, I do learn

I have heard that the Canadian research facility uses software to train listeners. I was hoping that some forum member would be able to tell me how to detect IMD, clipping, and other forms of distortion. This training is mighty useful while auditioning equipment.

Yes, this forum is a great help to newbies, but remember I joined this forum too late for it to help me (and I am quite sure that many others buy without getting proper advice).

Thankfully, my ears saved me. I didn't buy anything cutesy or glamorous with 'latest technology'. As my tag line says, I now focus on the best jazz and classical music (and attend concerts if I can get out of office). Equipment is now secondary.
bombaywalla
Stammgast
#39 erstellt: 29. Jan 2007, 17:30

Neutral schrieb:
I am not speaking of his recommendation abilities. Just the fact that Arthur Salvatore is willing to do the very unpleasant task of exposing the "audio press".

in that respect I agree with you. he certainly has the balls.


Neutral schrieb:

I apologise for implying that fellow audiophiles were weak minded. I was really speaking of myself (to have trusted mags so implicitly) But, I do learn

no problems! I wasn't sure on who those choicest adjectives were being levied on!


Neutral schrieb:

I have heard that the Canadian research facility uses software to train listeners. I was hoping that some forum member would be able to tell me how to detect IMD, clipping, and other forms of distortion. This training is mighty useful while auditioning equipment.

I *think* that I read this somewhere myself but it's a vague memory.
IMD: you'll hear discordant sound. it's really easy to detect especially with a violin. it sounds like the violin needs tuning!



Neutral schrieb:

Thankfully, my ears saved me. I didn't buy anything cutesy or glamorous with 'latest technology'. As my tag line says, I now focus on the best jazz and classical music (and attend concerts if I can get out of office). Equipment is now secondary.

yup! always trust your ears even if you consider them to be un-trained.
"best jass & classical music" is of course subjective i.e. your "best" might not be someone else's. But, hey, you are on the correct path, IMO, esp. when you write that "Equipment is now secondary".
Equipment should be bought, IMHO, depending on your motive for being into audio.
It MUST be carefully chosen to meet that motive & once setup correctly, IMHO, one should spend the time enjoying music thru it & not trying to split hair length-wise. After all, the equipment was made for playback. So, when it is carefully chosen & setup then it's time to playback & hopefully enjoy!
Many of us spend time listening to equipment rather than music & I feel that it the incorrect approach to things. So, if you have leanrt this so quickly, you are not doing badly in my books!


And.................
remain Neutral - either Sweden or Switzerland!


[Beitrag von bombaywalla am 29. Jan 2007, 17:32 bearbeitet]
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