Mcccormak DNA 125 for dynaudio audience 72

its been a very long time since ive heard the Macormack and the parasound being mentioned!

Must say you seem to have been recommended by some pretty knowledgeable folks..but please do leave the the sonodyne out of it..it seems to be a misfit in the above company !

Amps are quite ok in going the used way as long as you are able to trust the seller.


and your 1/2 choices are both very good classic and well known amps..dont see you going wrong with them.

not sure of the 1200 but the 1000 was an amp and did not have volume control.

if i remember right the mccormack DNA series were also power amps..

so you might need to budget in a pre as well.

dna 125 + passive + cdp would be ideal for you.

do remember that mccormack has no distributor and dealer here in India now so.........soundsmiths used to do that brand but dont anymore.

Why passive for the DNA 125 Manek ?

he said his budget was 40K so trying to maximise it. DNA125 a lot of people use with a passive as well.

What do you mean by passive manek, Gain control ?

yep....a suitable pot meter from alps or noble. luminous audio makes a very nice passive called axiom.

manek.

bobbybpl schrieb:

What do you mean by passive manek, Gain control ?

well not exactly gain control..more like "reduce input". passive will step down the signal usually using a pot (ie resistive)

but yes..Mankes suggestion is the best to maximize value on your budget..but please do get the sonodyne of your list.

from what I heard recently it is definitely does not have much to do with the Fidelity part of Hi Fi..w a "hazy" midrange and a not so subtle treble..think their speakers are relatively better

Hi Arj,
A buddily suggestion....if you get time please go ahead and audition the new Sonodyne Pre-Power for yourself just once without any reservations in mind. I know they are way too entry level (price wise) than the other amps we are discussing and normally talk about.....but I have to say that they have impressed me each and every time I have given them a serious listen. Unfortunately I could always listen to them paired with their own Sonus speakers (which I think is a league below their pre-power) but still I could definitely judge them relatively. As an Indian brand and with a price tag of 27k, I suppose we can at least listen to them once before putting them down.

Abhi, I think Manek & Arj are correct in their suggestions. When he bought speaker like Dynaudio, it's better to 've quality amplification at least in the same league. He has to try stuff like McCormak, Parasound, Rotel or NAD etc..IMO Brystons may be better bet. Try well maintained used ones

Buddy Powersupply
I have never suggested that Bobby should prefer Sonodyne above the other two....no way. All I suggested Arj is to at least hear the Sonodyne Pre-power once first hand and then give a negative feedback. As far as NAD is concerned, at 27k, incidentally this pre-power sounds more musical than a similarly priced Nad C352...to my ears that is. I am unable to give an objective comparison only because I havent heard the Sonodyne pre-power with any other speaker apart from Sonus 2605 (which I have already said is a league below the amp IMO) and I also havent got the opportunity to listen to a C352 with a Sonus 2605. So it is very difficult to compare them objectively. But from what I could perceive (after listening to these amps multiple times), the Sonodyne Pre-power sounded warmer, more tuneful (in the lows and mids) and overall very musical than the Nad which sounded pretty raw, hooting and particularly dry in comparison. Thats just my listening experience. Hence a recommendation to listen to them.

As for Bobby, I would whole heartedly vote for the McCormack. I know they are in a different league all together. But I suppose Bobby will have to spend a bit more later on for a pre-amp of the same stature which I guess he will definitely do once he tastes high-end

abhi.pani schrieb:

Hi Arj, A buddily suggestion....if you get time please go ahead and audition the new Sonodyne Pre-Power for yourself just once without any reservations in mind.

Hey Abhi, ii definitely do that. do give me the model no..

I did hear one of their INt amps not too far back (Ar forum)..my thougths were that even if they do have something for the higher end, their house sound does not tend towards the accuracy factor but the Market factor , which in India is definitely not accuracy..thats why i do admit to having a bias against them (In the end their market does not appear to be the "Audiophile"). when i heard it in forum, i thought it was meant for those who like their treble and bass both on high !

surprisingly their speakers were not too bad and i think would do very well in HT applications

Secondly i do not think they use any other reference speaker other than their own Sonus range for testing/voicing their amps..it would not make sense..but if that is the case the voicing is not what i would want for running an accurate speaker..but i am more than happy if I am wrong.

Regarding the pre power combo, in case of Pre's, it is better to have a passive pre than any active pre which is ..and really good active pres can be expensive (even more than the power amp !). hence even if i do go for their Amp i would definitely avoid their Pre

If i go for an active pre i would rather go for DIY or for one made by Viren or Siva as i know they know music.. as a pre can be surprisingly easy for a DIY but can be really screwed up in most of the mass produced designs.

Arj,
now that you mentioned it I have Viren's all tube pre+headphone amp at home and its the kind of sound I like. Tube rectification with 6sn7's coupled to output tranny's. Nice ! Nice ! I havent checked it out as a pre yet but as a headphone amp which drives my HD-580 senns, its good ! its breaking in currently but i have an idea of the flavour of the sound and I am liking it.

I did also hear the sonodyne pre/power combo with the sonus speakers but all of that leaves a lot to be desired. They have some way to go before they start challenging the NAD's of the world on all counts. Thats my humble opinion.

Manek.


Manek.

As for Bobby, I would whole heartedly vote for the McCormack.

Not necessarily McCormack. If budget is the concern your friend can look at NADs or Rotels Pwr w/Viren's valve pre, provided it suits his music & listening tastes. If I'm not wrong, pre amp will have more influence on sound than power amp. Better to try possible combos & decide finally.

Hi Arj,
Here are the model numbers:
Preamp: SPA 203R (http://www.sonodyne.com/SPA203R.htm)
Power amp: SPA 202 (http://www.sonodyne.com/SPA202.htm)

BTW, the integrated amp you have heard is no where close to the Pre-power in question. I have heard them both besides each other and the integrated amp lacked in every aspect of amplification in comparison to the Pre-power. I was happy to see the progress..frankly

The Sonus 2605 is a decent speaker but not the one that can be considered as a referrence. Not at least to evaluate their Pre-power. But still, thats the only option available.
Their Genie satts is definitely a cut above all their products and I have found them much better than many other satts from imported brands.
I understand the importance of preamp in a pre-power but sadly I havent heard the Sonodyne power with any other pre except their own .
A passive pre, though would preserve the tonality really well but I guess they may shrink the overall scale and dynamics due to the lack of signal boosting that takes place in and active pre. I dont have first hand experience here but some friends of mine have tried it out and came out with these results.

Hey Manek, so you bought a HD-580 ??? nice nice...
From where ? How much ?
How is it ?

abhi.pani schrieb:

Hi Arj, A passive pre, though would preserve the tonality really well but I guess they may shrink the overall scale and dynamics due to the lack of signal boosting that takes place in and active pre. I dont have first hand experience here but some friends of mine have tried it out and came out with these results.

Since Bombaywallah had put in an excellant post in a previous thread, i cannot even dare to write more on this..but if you source is good and has enough power to act as a constant current source into the amplification load then a passive is really good.

it is when the source power supply is not enough and it acts as a constant voltage source and not able to provide the supply of current into and pre/amp..that you need something to present and easy load to the source as well as drive the Amp.. (Siva/Viren/Amp nut and all you techies, i would welcome any correction to this)

In the past, with Turntables you neede to boost the voltage and hence a Pre was critical.

to me, honestly a pre (And i used an Electrocomaniet for around 9 months to realise it) means nothing more than a volume control and an option to have multiple inputs into an Amp !

Manek schrieb:

Arj, now that you mentioned it I have Viren's all tube pre+headphone amp at home and its the kind of sound I like. Tube rectification with 6sn7's coupled to output tranny's. Nice ! Nice ! I havent checked it out as a pre yet but as a headphone amp which drives my HD-580 senns, its good !

Hey nice..! i think a Pre + headphone am Unit would be a GREAT thing to have on ones setup.

I was acutally thinking of this setup but adding a sub output with a low pass filter as well so that the Deep bass also present !

Arj schrieb:

to me, honestly a pre (And i used an Electrocomaniet for around 9 months to realise it) means nothing more than a volume control and an option to have multiple inputs into an Amp !

I didnt get this statement...didnt you like the Electrocompaniet ?

I think what he meat to say is “No preamp” is better than any “Preamp “ if you can make it work.
But in most cases you need a Preamp for multiple sources and sensitivity issues between source and power amp etc….also makes a preamp a must.
There is also a camp who believe the right preamp can give more body to the music. I really have not tested it out, so can’t comment on this. For me, a valve preamp made all the difference in the world. To each his own.

abhi.pani schrieb:

I didnt get this statement...didnt you like the Electrocompaniet ?

loved it .i was very neutral and looked great too. but
1. My wadia has a high gain output hence an active amp was underloading my amp (high volume at 7:00 clock position !)
2. the Passive pot in my Int am was doing as good as the active pre..hence n real need.

of course i loved the remote control but that was too high a price to pay for that..

Arj,
you had found the ideal line stage "The wire with gain control" in Electrocompaniet

BTW which was the model of EC you had?


To Bobby I would request to give the new breed of Chineese amps a good listen, stuff like Advance, DK, spark do ahve good power amps. Preamps are still a tough act to perform but the chinese guys are catching up fast.

Regards

Anil

powersupply schrieb:

As for Bobby, I would whole heartedly vote for the McCormack. Not necessarily McCormack. If budget is the concern your friend can look at NADs or Rotels Pwr w/Viren's valve pre, provided it suits his music & listening tastes. If I'm not wrong, pre amp will have more influence on sound than power amp. Better to try possible combos & decide finally.

Given the choice which option is better to drive a speaker like dynaudio if budget is constrained (40k),
Pre/power or integrated ?

Anil
I would surely give them a try but where in mumbai
bobby

Arj schrieb:

it is when the source power supply is not enough and it acts as a constant voltage source and not able to provide the supply of current into and pre/amp..that you need something to present and easy load to the source as well as drive the Amp.. (Siva/Viren/Amp nut and all you techies, i would welcome any correction to this) In the past, with Turntables you neede to boost the voltage !

Its a very complex question; The reason for using pre and power amp ... is bascially because of amplification needs, rather than just type of "source". I will try to give a very simple explanation...

There are various ways to design a amp...different philosophies ...and different technical considerations and limitations.

So the purpose for a pre and power amp can serve different purpose in differnt product combination. For example,

1) the Audio Note's Ankoru, requires a preamp which has a lot of gain (since the overall gain of Ankoru is not that great). This is regardless of source..

2) some power amp might require a source which has specific output impedance...which can be solved with a custom design preamp....etc.,

So there is no a "single" answer to this question.

But in general, most of modern day power amps (solid state), do not generally require a dedicated active preamp. Having said that, if you do have a source that might not match with the power amp (due to factors such as output levels, impedance, etc.,), then a preamp could play the role of a broker.

But (another "but"...to confuse you) a good preamp...can always have a good impact of the overall quality of amplification (even though in might not really be required...atleast in pure technical terms). What "Impact"...the answer will be specific to the setup..and a very subjective issue.

Regards
Siva.

ani schrieb:

Arj, you had found the ideal line stage "The wire with gain control" in Electrocompaniet BTW which was the model of EC you had?

I had the EC 4.6. sometimes i do miss it but that is from a lazy mans view (It had a remote) rather than an audiophiles

BTW which speaker did you go for finally ?

Siva thank you for the additional info, as usuall your knowledge sharing is appreciated

sivat schrieb:

But (another "but"...to confuse you) a good preamp...can always have a good impact of the overall quality of amplification (even though in might not really be required...atleast in pure technical terms). What "Impact"...the answer will be specific to the setup..and a very subjective issue. Regards Siva.

This is where I was coming from basically. Though, as Siva said, the impact is pretty subjective but the approach of having a "matched" (to your taste) pre is pretty much safe as well as audiophilic IMO. I know this topic opens a different can of worms especially the "Taste" Vs "Accuracy" thing.
But lets not hijack the thread (which we have already done partially ) starting off that debate. I suppose Bobby has some good amps in hand to try out and regardless of whether he needs a pre or not, I think he should go for the best possible amplification at first.

Given the choice which option is better to drive a speaker like dynaudio if budget is constrained (40k), Pre/power or integrated ?

Around 40k!! I don't think that you get any decent pre/pwr combo. You can try integrates. For Dynes good drive is rqrd rather than more # of watts. Quite long ago, once I've listened to 72 with Bryston B60 (not critical audition). This small integrated was driving the 72 very satisfactorily. Not to hurry up, do some good ground work & decide.

Bobby
Nova Audio, Mumbai are official importers of Advance gear. I am using their monoblocks+pre, good vfm product as a combo. I would say that the monoblocks are real good quality amp than being just VFM gear.

I would go with Power on this one...for 40K you can get a pretty good integrated...

I've heard the Advanced Acoustic's integrated at Nova and they were pretty sweet sounding...do check them out as Ani says...

I presume the ones that you have listed are used ones...I would be very careful while picking up one of those...

If I really have to make a choice...i'd go with Parasound...they sound amazing...but where are you getting it from? The chap in Vijaywada??? Pick it up only if you can check it physically once...

ani schrieb:

Bobby Nova Audio, Mumbai are official importers of Advance gear. I am using their monoblocks+pre, good vfm product as a combo. I would say that the monoblocks are real good quality amp than being just VFM gear.

Ani,
I spoke to the guy named sanjay at nova audio for Advance gear,he told me about the models, MAP305 100 watts integrated(46K) and MAP407 200 watts integrated(100k), looking at the price doesnt seems competitive,as i told him that i have purchased Dynaudio he was convincing me for MAP 407 with more power but at this price would anybody consider it?

Bobby,

Give the AA an audition, I havent listened to both the models you have mentioned. Regarding your question on their price we have to compare it to other comparable gear and take the call. I dont think that there are manu 200w good monoblocks available for just above 100k plus a pre amp thrown in free

Listen to the gear and then decide, it is not a known brand but that may change if they get good report after the Munich Hi End show

Anil

I have heard the Advance acoustic 100 w and the 200W integrated amps.
looking at the price I think the 100w was a beautiful sounding amp. The 200 W amp was very precise and powerful in delivery. I loved it too. There definitely was a great amount of Difference there. Then again its the price in question.
Another lovely amp is the Jolida JD 1501RC...(55K)
great precise sounding... I thought it was better than the Adv Acoustic 100W.
There is a person selling a Acoustic Reality ref monoblocks. You could try them out with a good Passive pre amp as suggested by someone on this topic.
Bye
Alwyn

Can someone please give me more info about passive volume attenuators? Are they available locally? Or are they DIY products? What about the cost?

Siva is dealing in DACT stepped controllers.

you could get Alps, Noble(I think) or Vishay as well.

Alps available here?

Alps.. RS components do have motorised Alps, eventhough they are bit priced high, they do supply them promptly and you need to make the payment against delivery. I do have a RK 27 series 50k motorised pot as spare, if you would like to get them pls PM me.
Anil

What is a motorised pot? Can someone give me the lowdown on various types?

I checked the alps pots here - http://www.rsindia.c...ndhgi.0&cacheID=inie

What's the difference between the "Motorised carbon dual pot,50K log 27mm " pot costs 2,579/-, and the "Horizontal carbon dual pot,50K log 27mm", costing 1,606/- ?

Ok, so I figured the motorised pot is for remote controlled operation. Now how to go about that? I guess we'll have to attach an IR reciever to the motor somehow. It would be easier to get a pre-amp

BTW, is RK27 = Blue Velvet?

zhopudey

Can someone please give me more info about passive volume attenuators? Are they available locally? Or are they DIY products? What about the cost?

Ok, so I figured the motorised pot is for remote controlled operation. Now how to go about that? I guess we'll have to attach an IR receiver to the motor somehow. It would be easier to get a pre-amp

Volume is controlled by varying 1 or both resistors in a chain of 2 resistors connected in series ( One resistor feeding another.

Such volume controlling resistor arrangements are almost ALWAYs passive. They may be proceeded an or followed by some amplification, making a composite "Active Volume Control"

Keeping aside a phono stage ( for use with turntables ) and tone controls ( now almost phoo-phooed by audiophiles ), it can be said that the sole function of a pre amp is to provide volume control, WITHOUT degrading thge sound.

Seems simple but a tall order. Consider the ARC Ref or VTL line stage pre amps... they cost over US $ 10 K to 15K.

Remotely varying the volume, presents its own challenges, and in the past, one school of thought was to use the same Potentiometer that is rotated manually, and fit a motor behind it, so that the potentiometer can be rotated electrically.

Is is is NOT a trivial matter to add the electronics to the motor, to enable remote controlled operation. Some - even DIY solutions can cost more than a commercial pre amp.

As an example, the Very Highly regarded DACT stepped attenuator ( http://www.dact.com ) - available thru Siva - costs approx US $ 150 and matching motor + remote controller + electronics to drive the motor cost another US $ 300. And that is WITHOUT a power supply or enclosure !

Incidentally, a stepped attenuator is a ( usually rotary, like a source selector switch ) switch, with dfferent switched resistors to change the volume.

The rotary switch needs to have MANY positions to get a smooth variation of volume, in usable increments. The DACT has, I think 25 positions, and that too is sometimes felt to be less than ideal. There are other rotary stepped attenuators, with more steps... and More expensive !

Other stepped attenuators such as the Placette are external units that use relays instead. The Placette has received RAVE reviews... costs US $ 1000

Keep in mind the additional cost of 1 interconnect and its price in terms of sonic degradation, and the cost of external passive volume controls is pretty high

If you listen TO the High End Pre amps of about 5 years ago, ( CJ Act 2 ) you will actually hear the relays clicking away to change the volume...

The new school of thought at the Ultra High end is to do away with any switches whatsoever in the signal path.

A new arrangement of 1 or 2 LDRs ( Light Dependent Resistors) pointed at an LED... and the DC current thru the LED varied ) is quietly finding its way into Ultra High End Pre amps. That is my Fav topic, and I plan to home brew something for my self.

The darTZeel pre amp ( US $ 23,250) uses such an arrangement and the makers are talking of patenting it as their idea... The DIY community ( DIY.com) is up in arms against darTZeel because the idea has been ventilated on the website and used in earlier commercial products too, and is hardly a darTZeel invention.

Incidentally, the darTZeel and the Einstein Pre Amps go to great lengths to not have ANY switch in the Signal path. They have Separate input stages for Each input, and turn on the Power supply ( Not mechanical switching there either ! ) to the input stage in use.

To summarise, the Volume Control ( IMHO ) is the current frontier of Ultra High End Pre amp design.... something as simply as changing 1 or 2 resistors either switched or continuously, is the biggest obstacle.

Ummmmm......


*goes to search for old electronics texttbook*

Sorry that it got too much for you....

Wil keep in mind.

Ohh noes! Please keep sharing your knowledge A few rereads and I'll get it The LDR concept seems interesting.

But coming back to my rather noobish doubt, what do you think about the Alps Pot available at RSindia.com? I am assuming that since its a Dual-pot, I'll need only one.

Your Link shows a timed out error... hence cant follow the link.

Also I thought that in yr subsequent post you said you clarified your doubt ( on yr own )

Ok, so I figured the motorised pot is for remote controlled operation.

I also replied on how the motorised pot required a remote and electronics ...

So what is yr pending doubt ?

Thanks Amp Nut,
for the best post since I returned from Ooty

I hate to spoil the hi-end party, but I noticed that players like Norge sell the remote control version of their amps for just Rs 1000 more than the manual version. What kind of motorised pot are these vendors using? Also noticed that the Pulz pot gets noisy when dust and moisture enters it. What's the funda behind this?

I have noticed that computers easily control volume without any fancy motors or resistors. My Realtek offers Master, Wave, and Front volume controls that all influence the loudness of the sound. Any idea how these work? What if we could design amps (class D amps) that controlled the sound volume digitally, rather than through resistors? Would eliminate some of the problems associated with switches etc, but with what negative implications?

Thanks in advance!

Neutral, according to my very basic understanding, lowering the volume digitally means loosing resolution, and hence is undesirable.

Amp_nut, what I wanted to know was whether this Alps pot is good. Is this the blue velvet pot that I keep reading about everywhere? Ohh, for the link, go to rsindia.com, search for "alps pot". Then arrange according to price, descending.

Amp_nut, what I wanted to know was whether this Alps pot is good.

Sure, ALL ALPs pots are good, .... and expensive

Will it sound good in your application ???

That depends on what feeds your pot (CD Player ? Tube Or Solid State Output Stage ? ) and what the pot is feeding... ( A power Amp ? Tube or Bipolar or FET Input stage ? ). Basically the input and output impedances of the CD Player / DAC and The power amp, respectively.

Maybe a good idea to first use a Rs 20 carbon track pot ( Phillips ) from L'mington Road ... make sure its log ... and Ohmic value same as tghe ALPS U intend to use..

If it sounds decent, the APLs will provide you a tweak upgrade. ....

Have fun.