Do CD Players make The LEAST Difference In Sound Quality ?

Autor

Beitrag

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#1 erstellt: 11. Apr 2008, 10:16

Reading a Back Issue of The Absolute Sound (TAS), I came across an article where the author professes that Spending More Money ( Upgrading) on a CD player, yields the LEAST difference in Sound Quality, compared to sending that same amount on other components of a Stereo System ( Pre-Amp or Power Amp or Integrated amp or Speakers )

For the article, be considered 7 CD players - Each a price point leader - ranging from US $ 149 to US $ 10,000.

My first reaction was ...

However, i have been thinking ....

I would apreciate Forum member's reactions to this, but PLEASE DO NOT GO FOR THE COP OUT of " All components need to be balanced in a system, yada, yada."

I guess most Forum members will have a DVD player, I am requesting you to try this experiment and revert :

Replace yr CD Player with the DVD player.

Ofcourse it will most probably sound worse... Now jot down that price difference, and ask yourselves... Would that difference in price have made a bigger Sound Quality difference if I spent it on Speakers or Amplification ?

I suspect some will not like to publicly proclaim their opinions, and therefore I am setting up a Voting option.

Would appreciate Both views, but please no diplomatic yada yada that is neither here nor there...

Any Takers ?

square_wave
Inventar

#2 erstellt: 11. Apr 2008, 11:29

The DIFFERENCE in sound between two speakers or two amps may be more dramatic than the difference between two source players. This means that the difference between sources is more difficult to discern.
But this does not mean that difference between sources is not important. Once the rest of the system has great resolving capabilities, the differences between sources start showing up significantly. At that point in time, the source can make or break a system.

sivat
Stammgast

#3 erstellt: 11. Apr 2008, 11:32

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I would apreciate Forum member's reactions to this, but PLEASE DO NOT GO FOR THE COP OUT of " All components need to be balanced in a system, yada, yada."

This is probably more important than may of us might think ... i've seen people spending lakhs of Rs. and still end up with bad sound (and end up being unsatisfied) ..

This is also the area which DIYers take full advantage off .... so cannot write of this factor

Regards
Siva.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#4 erstellt: 11. Apr 2008, 11:37

square wave said :

Once the rest of the system has great resolving capabilities, the differences between sources start showing up significantly. At that point in time, the source can make or break a system.

Can I interpret your statement that the CD player should be upgraded only after the rest of the system is upto a certain level ?

Hence initially (atleast) the money is better spent else where ?

abhi.pani
Inventar

#5 erstellt: 11. Apr 2008, 11:49

Hi Amp_nut and all fellow audiophiles,
I have voted for option (1). Initially I was split between the two options as I value the importance of CDP a lot. But when I evaluated the illustration given by you in the other thread, I did it like this:
Suppose I invest 25k on either of the two combos below:
1. CDP worth 20k
Amp worth 5k

2. Amp worth 20k
CDP worth 5k (typically an entry level DVDP)

Speaker remaining constant (some decent speaker), I would get better sound with option (2) on more than 95% of the cases.
I can extend the same analogy to Speaker-CDP combo as well.

But if I have a case like this
I already have:
. CDP worth 20k
. Amp worth 100k+
. Speaker worth 100k+

And I have 20k to invest, I would most likely invest on the CDP....and that would give me maximum bang for the buck.

Would love to know your opinion on this.

square_wave
Inventar

#6 erstellt: 11. Apr 2008, 11:58

Amp_Nut schrieb:

square wave said :

Once the rest of the system has great resolving capabilities, the differences between sources start showing up significantly. At that point in time, the source can make or break a system.

Can I interpret your statement that the CD player should be upgraded only after the rest of the system is upto a certain level ?

Hence initially (atleast) the money is better spent else where ?

Yes. I would support this. At an entry level, the amp and the speakers will make the biggest difference.
For example: A system consisting of an Arcam fmj series cd player with a wharfedale speaker and a Yamaha / sonodyne amp will sound lousy but if you spend the same money on a quad / epos bookshelf speaker and a creek / CA amp and a Universal player/entry level cd player will give you’re a pretty good sounding system.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#7 erstellt: 11. Apr 2008, 12:06

I think I agree with square wave & Abhi...

Seem to be moving toweards a budget split of:

Aplification + Speakers : 75% to 80% of Spend

CD Player : 20% to 25 % ?

( ofcourse cables extra

)

Any alternate budget splits ( in % ) ?

square_wave
Inventar

#8 erstellt: 11. Apr 2008, 12:45

But ampnut…this budget may change as you go up the ladder. Once you achieve a very resolving amplification / speaker setup along with a good room, you may start to hear very significant differences between a cd player which costs 20 percent and one that costs as much as your amp.

stevieboy
Stammgast

#9 erstellt: 11. Apr 2008, 14:09

hi amp nut,

buck for buck, upgrading the amp had a far far greater effect than an equivalent upgrade to cd player/dac. for me the importance has always been amp>speakers>source in order of spending money. changing the amp results in more of a change than the cd player. the cd player adds that little fine tuning while its discernable and appreciated its certainly not as much (quantity and quality) as the change an amp brings about.

regards

Arj
Inventar

#10 erstellt: 11. Apr 2008, 15:52

well very interesting question.
my personal experience has been the same ie changes in speaker and amp are very apparent while that of the source much more subtle but it is there all the same.

My take is that in the end it is the weakest link in the chain which brings maximum benefit with a change

eg moving from a proac tablette to a proac 1Sc with a NAD 320 might not get any great benefit but moving up from a NAD 320 to a say..prima luna would bring a greater bang for the buck
OR
I am sure if we had a onida DVDp into a prima luna amp and a proac speaker..i am sure an upgrade to a better cdp like a rega or a marantz would bring about max bang for the buck.

[Beitrag von Arj am 11. Apr 2008, 15:56 bearbeitet]

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#11 erstellt: 12. Apr 2008, 19:06

Guys, I may not have conveyed what the article writer wanted to convey ( Or Did I ? )

Please read the article at :

http://rapidshare.com/files/106941513/The_Last_CD_Player.pdf.html

Please copy and paste the link as a single line in yr web browser.

Its a 1.5 MB pdf file.

Let me know yr thoughts AFTER reading the piece..

Thanks for your time.

SDhawan
Stammgast

#12 erstellt: 12. Apr 2008, 21:29

Let's looks at it another way:

Let's plot a graph of quality (Y-axis) vs price (X-axis). The curver for each component would be somewhat of a sigmoid curve or S-shaped. I thinks it's the position of the particular component in question would decide which offer great promise of an incremental quality for given increament in cost.

However, I personally feel that a change of source CAN make a HUGE difference in sound quality. After all Garbage In is Garbage Out - so the source has to be good.

bhagwan69
Inventar

#13 erstellt: 13. Apr 2008, 13:06

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Any alternate budget splits ( in % ) ?

Source 20 %
Amplification 35 %
Speakers 35 %
Cables & Power 10 %

This is how I would do it !!!

bhagwan69
Inventar

#14 erstellt: 13. Apr 2008, 13:12

This is how I HAVE DONE IT !!!

20 %
30 %
30 %
20 %

Cables make me bleed !!!

Arj
Inventar

#15 erstellt: 13. Apr 2008, 13:46

mine seems to be more like

35%
20%
35%
10%

am including tweaks also in cables

[Beitrag von Arj am 13. Apr 2008, 13:47 bearbeitet]

Prithvi
Stammgast

#16 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 07:36

IMHO the source is and always will be the most important link in the audio chain.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#17 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 07:43

Hi Prithvi,

Spoken lkike a TRUE Linn person !

Cheers

[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 14. Apr 2008, 07:43 bearbeitet]

particleman
Stammgast

#18 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 08:11

Prithvi schrieb:

IMHO the source is and always will be the most important link in the audio chain.

This is music to my ears since I hope to "salvage" my ultra-entry-level amp & speakers by pairing with a halfway decent CD player like the Marantz SA7001 in the later part of this year.

Arj
Inventar

#19 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 08:23

particleman schrieb:

Prithvi schrieb:

IMHO the source is and always will be the most important link in the audio chain.

This is music to my ears since I hope to "salvage" my ultra-entry-level amp & speakers by pairing with a halfway decent CD player like the Marantz SA7001 in the later part of this year.

Assuming of course that the amp and speakers have the resolving powers required to take advantage of the source

but yes get a good source and you have one lasting several years(ie upgrades

)

particleman
Stammgast

#20 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 08:46

Arj schrieb:

Assuming of course that the amp and speakers have the resolving powers required to take advantage of the source

but yes get a good source and you have one lasting several years(ie upgrades

)

Ha, ha, yes I am in the throes of upgradeitis within just 6 months of purchase. I am sort of working bass ackwards from what you have all discussed here: I will be adding a competent source soon and then getting an amp and speakers down the road that will tap the CDP's full potential. For one thing, I see now that a good standmount pair will be far more suitable for my needs than the floorstanders I have now.

I have been encouraged in part by the discussion here but also the article posted by Amp_Nut. I have not analyzed it too much but a spontaneous reaction is that it seems like Martin is saying that the source makes a difference but it is more about crossing a certain threshold of quality (obviously, as with all components). Once you consider players from a certain league then their individual differences are subtle but as a group are vastly better than the rest. He does state emphatically that even these subtle differences are important ("musically meaningful") to him but thankfully, with my less-than-keen hearing, I cannot claim the same. Hence I will conclude that it is a significant step to take. Will help me sleep better at night after the purchase

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#21 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 08:48

but yes get a good source and you have one lasting several years(ie upgrades )

Linn put forward the argument that the Source is the Most Important - more than 20 years ago, when the Linn Sondeck Turn Table was projected as the Holy Grail of Home Hi Fi.

Since then, many have advocated this upgrade path : Buy the best Sorce that you can afford, then gradually upgrade the rest of yr set up.

I beg to differ... for a ( debatable ) reason.

I believe that most CD players will NOT last for more than 3 years... 5 Years if you are LUCKY....

( I KNOW MANY WILL NOT AGREE WITH MY PROPHECY OF DOOM

) but I will stand by this theory of mine

In view of this, It seems to me that one need to upgrade other stuff first, before the CD player, and buy only the appropriate level of CD player to fully exploit the sonic capabilities of the rest of your chain. Over-spending on the CD player, initially, (IMHO) is a waste, because it may die before you really upgrade to hear its full capability !

P.S: Never spend so much on a CD player, that it will reduce you to tears, when it fails 3 years from now.

I have been toying with Arj's option... a separate DAC and a relatively low cost transport like the Oppo. ( Note the Oppo is a RATHER thin sounding, MODEST quality CD player, if its internal DAC is used )

[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 14. Apr 2008, 08:49 bearbeitet]

particleman
Stammgast

#22 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 08:57

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Over-spending on the CD player, initially, (IMHO) is a waste, because it may die before you really upgrade to hear its full capability !

P.S: Never spend so much on a CD player, that it will reduce you to tears, when it fails 3 years from now.

Food for thought indeed. I should consider this carefully. I was targetting a "Made in Japan" Marantz precisely for this reason.

But at least "planned obsolescence" is not a worry with RBCD. (Please don't tell me there an audio-only Blu-ray coming out!)

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I have been toying with Arj's option... a separate DAC and a relatively low cost transport like the Oppo. ( Note the Oppo is a RATHER thin sounding, MODEST quality CD player, if its internal DAC is used )

Just one point to raise here: this won't work with a SACD player

Also are there any entry-level DACs available here or are they all 50k and above? Else this could be really workable.

Manek
Inventar

#23 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 09:03

sure does make a diff but am wondering with this new blu ray stuff, what future does the cdp have with bluray into the market ? dont have a format war like dvda and sacd anymore. Are we seeing a new dawn of a high res format that can finally take the fight in terms of sound quality to vinyl on all fronts ?

secondly, should anyone now invest in cdp in the future ? how long before bluray players also play cd's well much like universal players ? these are questions that keep playing in my mind over and over.

Manek

particleman
Stammgast

#24 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 09:10

I think the CD is an extremely resilient format. It is amazing that we have such a product where even after over 2 decades we have yet to tap its full potential!

I too hope future players will maintain backwards compatibility so that our investment is not wasted (like cassette tapes).

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#25 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 10:55

(Please don't tell me there an audio-only Blu-ray coming out!)

YESSSSS ! Hi def Audio is VERY Much on the cards ....

secondly, should anyone now invest in cdp in the future ? how long before bluray players also play cd's well much like universal players ? these are questions that keep playing in my mind over and over.

The noise that HiFi magazines are making is that Downloadable files and Music servers are the Next frontier. ( I seem to have read more than a hint of the CDP becoming Obsolete in that article: "The LAST CD Player"

Hi Res Music downloads are already available, but to become mass market, the Internet speed / connectivity needs to go up 10x or even 100x ... and then there is the HUGE fear of piracy of the software...

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#26 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 11:03

Also are there any entry-level DACs available here or are they all 50k and above? Else this could be really workable.

I would suggest the following options for low priced DACs.

1. Many available in the 2nd Hand market . Check out Audiogon :

http://buy0.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?dgtlconv&1&ctg&st1

Some products as low as US $ 110.

2. Well received new procucts from Scott-Nixon for around US $ 500... with the 'air' that only Vacuum Tubes can provide

3. The DIY ( Do It Yourself ) route.

A DAC from Twisted pair, where you add a case and a power supply for as low as US $ 60.

The guys at Twisted Pear are also active on DIY Audio, and offer very good stuff...

http://www.twistedpearaudio.com

[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 14. Apr 2008, 11:04 bearbeitet]

bhagwan69
Inventar

#27 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 11:21

I think we should ask all;
How old is our CD Player [current] ?
Is it new ?
3 years old ?
5 years old ?
More than 5 years old ?
How often has it [CD Player] died on us ?

I am not so sure that CD Players [if used well] 'die' !
I have a friend of mine that still has a 1980's CD Player from Meridian in perfect running condition [may be an exception].

We are drifting; it is not about the 'life' of a CD Player that we are to discuss. It is the impact its performance has on the overall sound.

To me a 'source' is very very important.
If the CD Player is changed, the differance is surely 'audible' !!!
So, I will advocate buying a top notch CD Player.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#28 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 12:16

I am not so sure that CD Players [if used well] 'die' !

CD players usually dont 'die' but like Great Men... the Lasers simply fade away ...

First sign is that the CD takes a while to be recognised, and its menu displayed

Then some tracks start mis tracking

CDRs dont read though Pressed CDs with their greater reflectivity, are not a problem.

CDs with above 70 minutes of content are difficult to read..

These are typical signs of a dying laser...

Then, nothing reads

My experience.... My 1st CD player: Denon 1800. Life 2.5 years

Next a SONY 55ES, a TANK of a m/c. I bought second hand its was working when I sold it.

Now a Denon 2900 Universal player.... 2 years old.... CDR reading is erratic, particularly Gold CDRs

I have a 7 year old Pioneer DVD... works well. But this model ( 55 I think ? ) was Very well received for reliability and disc reading

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#29 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 12:33

Bhagwan, You know the VRDS that a mutual friend has ?

Has changed the Laser assembly Twice.. Both have died and now no new Laser assembly available. ( Was last quoted US $ 150 for the Sony KS151 laser assembly it uses, but not available )

And the VRDS was the Rolls Royce of all CD Players .... in terms of build quality.

In Singapore there is a guy who specialises in changing Laser assemblys on Wadias ...

Laser dying is not something that should be ignored when making a significant investment

specially, if its a 'Future proof upgrade'

Mehul had written in his editorial ( I forget the magazine... AV Max ? ) some months ago, that even Laser Assemblies that have not been used ( spares in a box) often do not work, when installed...because the magnetic sensors and the magnets have lost their potency

So even buying 2 spare laser assemblies with yr new player, for future repairs, may be futile.....

Sir, I am Not saying that I am right and contrary opinions are to be ignored.... just that if you are putting in Substantial money into a CD player, be prepared for its POSSIBLE write off in 3 to 5 years.

You could be lucky, and then maybe not ...

Amps and speakers will generally outlive the Player, by a SIGNIFICANT margin, and make for better, 'future upgrade proof' investments.

All ofcourse IMHO

stevieboy
Stammgast

#30 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 12:53

Amp_Nut schrieb:

thank you! that explains a lot i've been through. one particular elvis compilation refuses to play beyond a certain track also a jimi hendrix cd that has more than 60 minutes. any quick fix way of tricking the player into playing these long timing discs?

would be better to get a good DAC and rotate the transport or cd player then no?

regards

bhagwan69
Inventar

#31 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 15:32

Transport + DAC will never perform 'perfect' !
The Clocks will never sync;

Basically you need a transport that allows itself to be 'slaved' by the DAC. If that is possible, then a Transport + DAC combination will work.
Else, No DAC in the world will be in a position to perform to its best potential.

Kindly notice - all top end digital seperates have out board clocks or have seperate connection for word clock syncs. cdS / Esoteric etc.

Therefore it is very very rare to find CD Players with digital ins. If a DAC section of a CD Player has no control over the clock of the digital signal, it can never convert the signal 'perfectly' !!!
IMHO

Arj
Inventar

#32 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 15:35

I guess no matter what High end player you have..in the end the music is still recorded in redbook.
one of the failures of SACD, from what i could perceive, was not about the medium..it was about the CONTENT almost all of which sounded the same as a cd (sometime even worse) since all the recordings were just "recoded/remastered" into the new format.

i would rather bet on the HDD/any other technology based Music servers to displace the transport..hence the option of a good Top-Notch DAC will be there for quite some time..if not anything else at least to play the 400 odd cds I own

and i am sure io would always be able to convert any other future format into a digital format which can pay via my dac.

I have anyway bought 2 replacement cdm12.4 mechanisms as an insurance against my transport which is showing signs of its life snuffing out ...

regarding Stevieboys comment

i would be happy if that works..but i would doubt if the newer formats would continue to use PCM. eg SACD used DSD due to which you could not use a traditional DAC with it on the SACD encoding..but am sure there would be ways of converting it into a PCM recording ( ??)or a lossless format which can then be output to a dac via PC/HD based transport

Arj
Inventar

#33 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 15:37

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Transport + DAC will never perform 'perfect' !
The Clocks will never sync;

thats a good point...whats your opinion on the standalone "re-clockers" like Monarchy/theta tlc/ SF jitterbug etc ? do they make the problem a bit better ?

bhagwan69
Inventar

#34 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 15:46

Respected Sir,

All the suggestions / options you have offered are what I would call 'negotiators'
They will find a mid path. They will never be perfect.
If I can drift a bit, please........
The information hand over has to be 'mutual' and 'consentual' [Like Jodha & Akbar].
The Transport should want to be 'slaved' by the DAC.
If that is a story, then the 'relationship' shall be successful.

Putting all the 'friends' in the middle, avoids the 'divorce' but the 'relationship' is never 100 % 'happy' !!

Sorry for the 'off tangent' example.

Ideal is Transport to Clock to DAC
Dedicated sockets and connections on each !!

Regards,

Arj
Inventar

#35 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 15:48

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Putting all the 'friends' in the middle, avoids the 'divorce' but the 'relationship' is never 100 % 'happy' !!

Sorry for the 'off tangent' example.

Sir !
cannot think of a better way to answer my question than this analogy

so the "recommended" transport to a dac..which is sold as a pair should be a better option..or some of those rare combinations which are naturally compatible (Soulmates !)

[Beitrag von Arj am 14. Apr 2008, 15:50 bearbeitet]

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#36 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 17:38

Or a single box solution... CD Transport + DAC ie a CD player... ?

bhagwan69
Inventar

#37 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 19:34

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Or a single box solution... CD Transport + DAC ie a CD player... ? ;)

Well said Sir;
Precisely.
A good CD Player is a good CD Player.

Yes, the lens can die on you, but then so does a cartridge, does it not ? So do you stop using a 'good & expensive' cartridge ?
A CD Player has moving parts, hence there is bound to be damage caused to it, definately more than that caused to a pre amplifier, but the best pre + power + speaker will only sound as good as its source !
So do not put a Nad 541 [or what ever the current 'flavour of the month']

CD player in front of a Mark Levinson Pre & Power driving a B & W 802D please for heaven's sake !!!!

[Beitrag von bhagwan69 am 14. Apr 2008, 19:53 bearbeitet]

Arj
Inventar

#38 erstellt: 14. Apr 2008, 20:01

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Or a single box solution... CD Transport + DAC ie a CD player... ? ;)

i still have a soft corner for a transport + Dac combo

somehow gives me a feeling of being more future proof . (tht includes streaming audio from personal servers as well !)

bhagwan69
Inventar

#39 erstellt: 15. Apr 2008, 05:49

Sure;
Convenience exist.

Besides, in 'low fi' to 'mid fi' & even 'hi fi' the word clock sync will not be missed. The problem is only prevailant in 'hi hi-fi' where the last bit of information has to be extracted and reproduced.

When we are talking about sub 500 US $ DAC's here, that problem is never going to show up [Scot Nixon etc.] !!!

So be rest assured, your Transport & DAC will work just fine. You will never have a problem & you sure will be in a position to stream music from a server through your DAC !!
Enjoy !!!

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#40 erstellt: 15. Apr 2008, 07:53

bhagwan69 said:

So do not put a Nad 541 [or what ever the current 'flavour of the month'] CD player in front of a Mark Levinson Pre & Power driving a B & W 802D please for heaven's sake !!!!

Thanks for that personalised "B&W 802D" touch

Also a clarification ... I have NEVER said ( nor implied in the title of the thread that CD player makes NO Difference In Sound Quality

It says :

The LEAST Difference In Sound Quality...

bhagwan69
Inventar

#41 erstellt: 15. Apr 2008, 11:33

Dear A-N,
It could be any speaker - just to site excample - 10 K price point.

I am a very very strong advocator that CD Players make a huge differance.

Let me explain; Speakers are dependent on the room, you cannot put a small speaker in a big room, big speaker in a small room etc. etc. Hence one will buy a speaker that is 'optamised' for a particular kind and type / size of room.
Secondly, the amplification will depend on the speaker, one cannot buy a 300 B tube amp for a B & W 802D now can you ? So the amplifier choice too is dictated by the type of speaker.
The only component that is 'free' of the 'chain' is the source, i.e. CD Player or TT.

But yes, there is a legetimate level where the effects will be visible.

If some one tells me that we should put a Burmester CD Player in front of a Nad Amplifier & a Dynaudio Audiance speaker, then the source will not be in a position to show its capabilities !! That is obvious.......

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#42 erstellt: 15. Apr 2008, 12:13

I totally agree with you, Bhagwan69,

This thread was a discussion on whether money spent on CD players provided the LEAST bang for the buck.

1. Ofcourse CD players have performance levels, and I have experienced this VERY obviously at your place too.

2. I also FIRMLY Agree that the CD player needs to be upgraded keeping up with the systems capabilities.

But with points 1 & 2 VERY well taken, " Do CD Players offer the least Bang for the Buck"