Learn from this- Part -2

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Prithvi
Stammgast
#1 erstellt: 25. Mai 2005, 20:00
Hi! Guys,
Saw this on the net. Nice info for guys buying stuff from dealers".

If you're an audiophile, or a potential one, Usually an audio dealer runs a pretty good facility with a lot of fine gear, but a lot of potential customers won't go through his door because they think -- wrongly in all probability -- that they'll be skinned alive. Unlike the customers at Crazy Al's (who are told they have to decide by five o'clock because that's when the price doubles), your dealer's customers take weeks to decide, even months. Even so, they write to UHF to double check everything they're told, and then some of them buy the stuff by mail order because it's $20 cheaper that way. What a tough racket!
But you've got your own problems.
You already know what you'd like to own: the best. Only you can't afford it, so you'd like a dealer to tell you what to buy that will sound almost like the best, even if that means recommending things he doesn't carry, or bringing things in specially for you so you can hear them. You then would like him to install the system in your home for a month to see whether you like it, and -- if you do -- to let you have it for cost plus five percent. Oh yeah -- and with no money down until August.
That's what you'd like, but being a reasonable person you're willing to compromise, and probably so is the dealer.

(a) Tell yourself that the dealer won't eat you. At least a real high fidelity dealer won't, because he knows that in all likelihood you won't buy today anyway. If on your first visit he can introduce you to the lines he carries, talk to you about them and play you a little music, he'll figure he's doing well. By all means have a look and a listen. Though few dealers today insist on an appointment for a demonstration,(just like at ABSOLUTE PHASE) you may get better service the second time if you arrange to drop by some time when the store isn't too busy.

(b) Be frank, but be open too. The dealer shouldn't have to guess what you want, but remember that this and future visits are supposed to have an educational function, and that therefore you have to be prepared to change your mind about certain things. Notice: not to have your mind changed for you, but to alter your opinion in the light of what you hear.

(c) Don't play expert. It may happen that, for some reason, you know more about one particular topic than the dealer. But you're not being paid for expert advice, and he is.

(d) Don't be intimidated. This is the opposite problem, and it is a much more common one. You hear a demonstration you find more irritating than edifying, but the dealer is an "expert" and you're not, so you nod in agreement. Either you walk out and never return, or else you con yourself into buying and you wind up hating both the dealer and yourself. Short circuit this problem from the start. Your ears are as good as mine and the dealer's. If the stuff sounds good, you should be shown that it's good. Don't make this into an ego challenge: don't scream that it's junk, just that it makes you uncomfortable, queasy, bored...whatever. Express your eagerness to go on listening.

(e) Bring a record, CD, SACD. Actually you might make a major discovery with a dealer's record you've never heard, but it's useful to have a point of reference as well. A good dealer will be happy you brought it. No wonder Absolute Phase always insists that you get your own music for a demo.

(f) Ask to hear the system you'd like to own ten years from now. Really the dealer should let you hear it without prompting, but just in case he overlooks it ask politely. Be honest about why you're doing it. If you lie and claim that this is the system you want to buy now, and then you wind up looking at stuff costing a tenth the price, don't be surprised if the dealer starts thinking how much fun it would be to see you sprawled on the pavement.

(g) Understand the franchise system. Dealers usually have the exclusive right to sell a particular brand in that town, or at least in that area of town. It is natural that he will try to convince you to buy that brand; any other course of action would be suicidal. He cannot sell you a brand that is franchised to a competitor. Even so, I've heard of dealers offering to bring in specially a product he didn't carry which was not available elsewhere in town. This is service of an extraordinary order, so don't demand it as a constitutional right, and be grateful if you get it anyway.

(h) Build a relationship. Unless your pockets are bulging with unwanted currency, building a dream system is a long-term project. A good dealer can help make it less painful and probably cheaper too. If you trust the dealer, you may want to stay with him even if you've read that some component he doesn't carry is just terrific. It is rare in the extreme for one brand to be so clearly superior that there are no sensible alternatives. Your store may have such an alternative to propose.

Hope this helps anyone buying new stuff.

Cheers

Prithvi
TROJAN_HORSE
Gesperrt
#2 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 09:59
Whom are you asking to learn from this?!!!!You are a dealer so you got some stuff from net to support your views-You could've instead given the link than pasting the whole blade.What is in your "Learn from this Part-3"----Not some leftover stuff like your Learn from this series - 1.
square_wave
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 12:33

TROJAN_HORSE schrieb:
Whom are you asking to learn from this?!!!!You are a dealer so you got some stuff from net to support your views-You could've instead given the link than pasting the whole blade.What is in your "Learn from this Part-3"----Not some leftover stuff like your Learn from this series - 1.


Hey,
It doesn’t matter where people get views from. It is a free world. If you have a problem with any specific point, why don’t you bring that up? That will make this a meaningful discussion. Prithvi posted what he found to be apt from a dealer’s point of view.
Arj
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 12:38

TROJAN_HORSE schrieb:
Whom are you asking to learn from this?!!!!You are a dealer so you got some stuff from net to support your views-You could've instead given the link than pasting the whole blade.What is in your "Learn from this Part-3"----Not some leftover stuff like your Learn from this series - 1.


This is called being very very nasty

Whats the point of this ? It does not help anyone and just ruins the environment of usually a very nice forum
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#5 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 13:01
TJ,

I know you got misled by the topic title "Learn from this",
may be it should've been like Information or read something else for you crude for you right??? but learning is the reason we are all here.So cool it man hold your horses.


[Beitrag von SUB_BOSS am 26. Mai 2005, 13:08 bearbeitet]
TROJAN_HORSE
Gesperrt
#6 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 13:17
Arj wrote :


This is called being very very nasty

Whats the point of this ? It does not help anyone and just ruins the environment of usually a very nice forum


Yes sir my direct remarks are nasty. What about indirect remarks which are more damaging being made here. It's so clear that most discussions are well planned amomg commercial members and their close buddies so they praise each other among themselves and newbies are led into buying traps.I've been watching:-(-----will be back for more
jsa_ind
Stammgast
#7 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 15:24
I think we should hear Ravi out. Good, Bad or Ugly

If there are issues let us sort it out and move on.

The only request is let it be general to all Commercial Members & their well-wishers...if there is such a cartel in existence. Or to all Newbie's. Or to all general members.

If not for anything else I would like to hear things for myself...being involved in the Distributorship of audio.

True something's cannot be pinned down without irrefutable evidence....but just bringing things up, whether factual or perceived, would be a good idea

We can accept whatever we think as relevant & reject what we think is irrelevant...


[Beitrag von jsa_ind am 26. Mai 2005, 15:50 bearbeitet]
square_wave
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 15:44
Yes let’s hear him out……
I am really curious now !
roshan
Ist häufiger hier
#9 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 15:53
Duh...uh...

Who's Ravi? Nobody by that name on this thread so far...or am I missing something?

Roshan.
Arj
Inventar
#10 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 15:55

TROJAN_HORSE schrieb:

Yes sir my direct remarks are nasty. What about indirect remarks which are more damaging being made here. It's so clear that most discussions are well planned amomg commercial members and their close buddies so they praise each other among themselves and newbies are led into buying traps.I've been watching:-(-----will be back for more ;)


This is a pretty serious allegation !
jsa_ind
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 16:59
Trojan's name was mentioned as Ravi in his Profile
oarnura
Ist häufiger hier
#12 erstellt: 26. Mai 2005, 17:16

(c) Don't play expert. It may happen that, for some reason, you know more about one particular topic than the dealer. But you're not being paid for expert advice, and he is.


I find this point extremely problematic. I have dealt with many a type of dealers and have always been polite. But when a dealer obivously is talking nonsense it is extremely hard to keep a straight face.

I have been to dealers that treat you like trash. i normally just walk away and never ever return and spread the word. I don't see that being mentioned in the "learn from this" thread. A dealer teaching how to be polite to dealers, very interesting!!
TROJAN_HORSE
Gesperrt
#13 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 07:33
square wave wrote :


Yes let’s hear him out……
I am really curious now !


Dear Mr Wave I know you are expressing your views here in a biased manner coz you bought speakers from a guy who is the originator of this topic and you will always try to defend him and contradict my statements , I never ever beleive in discussing things with people who are not putting their own views but to impress someone else. I write what I think is appropriate and if people feel I'm too harsh like Arj so be it. No offences to Arj.

oarnura wrote ;


I find this point extremely problematic. I have dealt with many a type of dealers and have always been polite. But when a dealer obivously is talking nonsense it is extremely hard to keep a straight face.


my problem is I find the whole thing problematic gotcha.As Sub( usual one for you) mentioned this topic should have had a title which is more subtle----like -"Info for newbies" and not make it clear to all---"learn from this" so what does it imply---We know nothing and these are the ABCD's we gotta learn.

roshan wrote :


Duh...uh...

Who's Ravi? Nobody by that name on this thread so far...or am I missing something?

Roshan.


dear Roshan I'm Ravi glad to meet you. My regards to you and your family.
ani
Stammgast
#14 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 07:57
Why don't we take the whole matter in a lighter sense and each persons personal views are not taken as subject worth discussing.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#15 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 08:28
Agreed Ani...

Title is being given a lot more importance than the contents....
I also agree that a Dealer suggesting how to deal is somewhat awkward but....if someone like Prithvi who is so closely associated with the forum, wants to make a point, does he have to leave his dealership or enter with some disguised name ???

I dont say that Prithvi cannot be biased while giving his views but that can be filtered out and only the releveant points can be accepted !!!!

Prithvi is a commercial member, that doesnt in any way hamper his independence to talk about the Market and the dealers.
Arj
Inventar
#16 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 09:01

TROJAN_HORSE schrieb:

No offences to Arj.



...And None taken

A statement like that does put thinngs into perspective..Right or not ..well that is about as subjective as definition good sound !


[Beitrag von Arj am 27. Mai 2005, 09:02 bearbeitet]
Betelguese
Ist häufiger hier
#17 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 09:02
Hi All!
Dear members I started having some interset in HI-FI about two months back. I learnt a lot of ugly truths about dealers/ Companies etc...
I was even shocked to compare prices of Hi-Fi equipment on the net and what is being retailed here. There is absolutely no ethics about equipment prices, a piece of equipment which is RETAILED abroad (after taxes and dealers margin state taxes etc...) costing about 100$ is being sold here for about double. So i feel buying a thing here for hundred dollars i am getting only about 20-30$ worth from the manufacturers. I had even asked on this forum what are the import duties on speakers/ HI-FI equipment etc... . Only one senior member replied. most dealers want to keep quiet about it.( I still am looking for the answer! very few dealers would like to see topics like these come up. Yes business is business but then this is a internet forum).
Unfortunately in these forums i see very few topics on DIY applicable to India.Very little is discussed about typical indian problems like typical indian room construction for reflections, heat, humidity, electrical voltage and cycle. Also very little on making the most & the best of any system that members already have. Most of the threads end up in Brand bashing or Brand polishing.Most dealers just steer very clear from any discussion about Indian brands or from other brands which have a proper retail network ???
A few people like sandeep have ventured out making speakers for us.( Even though he is a bit 'Bright' about it as audiophiles call it.)

It is very sad to see this thread get ugly.
Arj
Inventar
#18 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 09:10

Betelguese schrieb:
Hi All!

It is very sad to see this thread get ugly.


Welcome to audiophile forums.. Every forum gets like this. important thing is- have you learnt something from it which you did not know before..if you have, no need to get sad.

I think import duty is around 50%. but frankly demand and supply is a market rule and a basis of all transactions.

If you feel you are getting a better price on the net go for it. if 5 people do a mass buy from the net, the cost will be cheaper, will prompt more folks to do it , and if the dealer feels that he is losing business, he will bring down the price...
(I am not getting into the tricky business of warranty and returns here as they mean different things to different people)

I think in india, due to the size and miniscule market, it is not a simple network. you first have a distributor who imports and stoks them, then you have a dealer to whom the distributor supplies and perhaps there are margins all the way. and his money is blocked on a slow moving prduct for a very long time..

But best part of being a consumer is that that is not of our concern...you get a better price somewhere else then Go for it


[Beitrag von Arj am 27. Mai 2005, 09:11 bearbeitet]
Manek
Inventar
#19 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 09:20
betelguese

I was told (not by a audio dealer) that the maximum cap for customs duty in India on electronics goods is 15%. I've asked many an audio dealer and they still maintain that duties for audio equipment are still high. Notice that the prices for the same equipment are now a bit higher as well than a year ago. Sounds very very fishy to me.

Whenever dealers point out a dollar pricing they refer to the MRP say in Britain or the US and then calculate the duties and local taxes. We know that markups in those countries are very decent. Secondly they want to make you believe that they purchase at the prevailing US or British MRP rates in the countries they buy stock from, say Singapore.

So on an average would I be right in assuming that Indian hi-fi consumers are being fleeced ?

Manek.
Arj
Inventar
#20 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 09:24

Betelguese schrieb:
Hi All!
I had even asked on this forum what are the import duties on speakers/ HI-FI equipment etc... . Only one senior member replied. most dealers want to keep quiet about it.( I still am looking for the answer! very few dealers would like to see topics like these come up. Yes business is business but then this is a internet forum).
.



Well the information is not really a secret, if you are so interested, you should be able to research it out in the net
It is out there..no need to wait for someone to tell you !

try this if it helps.. I just googled
http://exim.indiamart.com/customs-duty/ch85.html
square_wave
Inventar
#21 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 10:39

TROJAN_HORSE schrieb:
square wave wrote :


Yes let’s hear him out……
I am really curious now !


Dear Mr Wave I know you are expressing your views here in a biased manner coz you bought speakers from a guy who is the originator of this topic and you will always try to defend him and contradict my statements , I never ever beleive in discussing things with people who are not putting their own views but to impress someone else. I write what I think is appropriate and if people feel I'm too harsh like Arj so be it. No offences to Arj.

oarnura wrote ;


I find this point extremely problematic. I have dealt with many a type of dealers and have always been polite. But when a dealer obivously is talking nonsense it is extremely hard to keep a straight face.


my problem is I find the whole thing problematic gotcha.As Sub( usual one for you) mentioned this topic should have had a title which is more subtle----like -"Info for newbies" and not make it clear to all---"learn from this" so what does it imply---We know nothing and these are the ABCD's we gotta learn.

roshan wrote :


Duh...uh...

Who's Ravi? Nobody by that name on this thread so far...or am I missing something?

Roshan.


dear Roshan I'm Ravi glad to meet you. My regards to you and your family.


Of course not ! It is true that I bought the speakers through him but my views regarding your nasty post are not biased. These are two different things altogether. I am just defending Prithvi’s freedom to post something he found useful on the net. If you post something interesting, I will support that also.
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#22 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 11:02
square wave wrote :


Of course not ! It is true that I bought the speakers through him but my views regarding your nasty post are not biased. These are two different things altogether. I am just defending Prithvi’s freedom to post something he found useful on the net. If you post something interesting, I will support that also.


very true if you dislike something ignore it and you like some topic post your views...and since weekend is round the corner it's party time folks.....

buurrppppppp
oarnura
Ist häufiger hier
#23 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 15:25
square_wave:


I am just defending Prithvi’s freedom to post something he found useful on the net. If you post something interesting, I will support that also.


Freedom of posting is one thing, being patronizing is another. A title like "learn from this" with onesided fluff for a body is very patronizing and insulting. I have dealt with many types of people on forums. Prithvi isn't a very unbiased person, unfortunately he is also happens to be a dealer. That makes his freedom a little more restricted becuase he benefits from his opnions financially.

If Prithvi really found this on the net he should have posted a link not a modified version with no source. He injected his own emoticons and plugs to his store. I am sorry but that is going a bit too far.

Though I don't agree with the way TROJAN_HORSE said it I agree with everything he said. Every one is learning in this business even Prithvi. He is no God in audio just because he has a store and a few audiophile cds to demo and claims to know everything.

I have dealt with enough dealers to know better. And this "learn from this" nonsense is very one sided to be true to the title.


[Beitrag von oarnura am 27. Mai 2005, 15:29 bearbeitet]
jsa_ind
Stammgast
#24 erstellt: 27. Mai 2005, 23:42
Dear Ravi,

Could you please elaborate in general terms what you meant by
".................... It's so clear that most discussions are well planned among commercial members and their close buddies so they praise each other among themselves and newbie's are led into buying traps.I've been watching:-(-----will be back for more "

Thanks,

Regards,

Junia.

***********************************************************************************************************************
Dear Abhi.Pani,

Do you mean to say that there are forum members with multiple identities ?
"who is so closely associated with the forum, wants to make a point, does he have to leave his dealership or enter with some disguised name ??? "

Thanks

Regards,

Junia.
***************************************************************************************************************************************************
Dear Manek,

Are multiple identities allowed ? In most other forums they are not. If they are allowed, do you think it would be damaging to the interests of all to have multiple identities. I mean one person can play duel roles as a dealer/manufacture/distributor & as a buyer...thus hyping their products for their own gain.

The administrator could easily identify monitor identities through the IP addresses....if it is not allowed....if it is then it is a different story.

Thanks,

Regards,

Junia.
*****************************************************************************************************************************************************
Dear Betelguese,

If you were to retrace a thread which I had started known as "Plinius+Harbeths+Eichmann " I was suggesting direct imports to folks around. This June we are going to be experimenting the same and would welcome members to voice their opinions as to their experience of direct imports.

Quite a few members of this forum are members of http://www.diyaudio.com/ have you checked it out ? The Indians on that forum are coming up with an interesting idea of importing components at cost price & having a centralized place in India, where they can have their gear tested with the very best of the best testing equipment.

I better not dwell too long on this topic here as it is not appropriate.

Thanks,

Regards,

Junia.

**********************************************************************************************************************************
Dear Oarnura,

It is good to have someone to keep us on our toes ! Way to go Sir !

Thanks,

Regards,

Junia.

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************


[Beitrag von jsa_ind am 28. Mai 2005, 10:00 bearbeitet]
Manek
Inventar
#25 erstellt: 30. Mai 2005, 07:56
Junia,

Multiple identities are not allowed....we would appreciate it immensely if dealers and distributors came out and said so about themselves. Posting threads promoting the products they carry is not a very good idea on the forum.

There are a couple of dealers who are mostly quiet on the forum but do come in from time to time to add value to a thread which is very highly appreciated.

Manek.
jsa_ind
Stammgast
#26 erstellt: 30. Mai 2005, 09:04
Dear Manek,

Well I guess all the folks who normally appear once in a while to praise/defend a particular individual/s or any particular product/s will disappear then ! Thank you Sir !

An Administrator, known to me, uses a combination of normal web hosting software along with Visualware http://www.visualware.com/ to police his site, with pretty good results.

Regards,

Junia.
Manek
Inventar
#27 erstellt: 30. Mai 2005, 13:37
hi junia,

I'm not so sure of the dissappearence of any individuals as stated but i would definately like all of us, consumers/users/dealers to contribute and add value to the thread/discussion in a positive way :-)

So spread the good word folks.....

Manek.
jsa_ind
Stammgast
#28 erstellt: 30. Mai 2005, 15:04
Dear Manek,

Maybe I am seeing too many Forensic Science programmes here....however I cannot stop a chuckle or two seeing "so called different identities" having the same sentence construction, wording, grammatical & spelling errors. The chances of different people writing in such a similar manner is one in a million ! Maybe those one in a million types seem to all flock to this form....I don't know.....

However as you have said that multiple identities are not allowed, hopefully this practice would come to an immediate end and everyone would contribute constructively to build & share knowledge thus enhancing the value of this forum.

Regards,

Junia.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#29 erstellt: 30. Mai 2005, 15:19
hey jsa_ind,
I think we are carrying it too far....."same person under different identities" is still very rare (if at all) in this forum. In my previous post I just meant to tell you guys not to attack a person just because he is a dealer (I may be right or wrong) thats all.....

Now such kind of discussion about multiple identities itself is very unhealthy for the environment of the forum....atleast till we find a case like that !!!


If at all you are curious about this and want to talk more about this to the moderator, you can go through the PM route.

Hope I am clear.
jsa_ind
Stammgast
#30 erstellt: 30. Mai 2005, 16:05
Dear Abhi,

I beg to differ, this practice had to come out into the open.

This is a forum where people are putting in their hard earned money to buy a music system...often for the first time.

Apart from learning from others about audio, they come to this forum to be advised without feeling the pressure of what they would, should they go to any particular retail outlet.

I think people shouldn't be sucked into a black hole thinking that decision was sound, only to realize later that they were conned or pressurized into buying something by views that were fraudant in the first place because of duel identities, where you had the same person/s posing as both the vendor/manufacturer/dealer & the customer or often as customers. One has only to go through the forum threads to see this underlining frustration & despair in customers surface from time to time, after they have made a purchase.

By bringing this in the open the sanctity & security of the forum is preserved and the potential customer is aware that such things do occur on a fairly regular basis and hence would take adequate precautions..

I have done my duty in bringing this to light now I am sure the Moderators would monitor the situation from here on.

Regards,

Junia.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#31 erstellt: 31. Mai 2005, 07:09
ok..
Suche:
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