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Two Saturday afternoons well spend…….

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Beitrag
square_wave
Inventar
#1 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 09:32
It was a real pleasure to spend my last two Saturday afternoons at absolute phase checking out some real goodies. Some real gems were there. Some old, some new. Some beliefs were further strengthened while some were shattered. There is no alternative to listening. Thought I will share some with you.
1.Tubes pre amps rule !
A pair of Bryston monoblocks were driving a pair of Proac studio 140s. It sounded really nice. Much nicer than I remember last time when I listened to them. I didn’t really like the bryston/proac combo last time I listened to them. I asked Prithvi what he had changed. He pointed to a 1987 model Audio-research tube pre-amplifier ( SP-9). One more senior audiophile was present and he suggested we switch back to the Musical Fidelity pre. We switched and it was as if a thin veil was added in between you and the music. Suddenly the connection with the singer and music was gone and the sound was detached but clear with a hint of grain. The sweetness and naturalism in the sound was just awesome with the tube pre-amplifier. Remember that the MF pre is no slouch. It is considered to be one of the best in its price class by many. But what a 1987 model valve pre could do was a real eye opener. I guess tube preamps and solid state power is a killer combo. Check out audio research here. http://www.audioresearch.com/
Here is a guy who has spent his entire life researching audio research products. http://www.arcdb.ws/

2. I got to listen to a Primare Integrated amp. Dual mono block design. Around 120 watts per channel (forgot the exact model). It was driving the Linn- Ninkas and katans. Lovely grain free sound with good attack. It costs a bomb though ! A lac or so !
3. We did an A/B comparison of the Linn katan bookshelf with the dynaudio audience 52 se. The katan was cleaner with better highs and more detail in the bass. The 52 se seems to have a bit of bass overhang and tend to sound a bit muddy in the lower octaves while the katans seemed to sound very lively, agile and cleaner to my ears. Bear in mind that some may prefer the 52se to the katans, especially people who are more into hard rock.
This Saturday when I walked in, I was in for a real treat! Audio note valve DAC, Audio-lab solid-state DAC, Musical fidelity X 24 dac with out-board power supply and a 50 watt integrated from the same MF series with an outboard power supply and a Thorens dedicated transport.I didn’t know where to start !

4.Transport makes a difference !
The Ninkas were driven by the rega-mira amp using the analogue output from the Audio-lab DAC. We had two transports in hand, Linn classik and the Dedicated Thorens. We decided to do an A/B comparison of the two transports. I didn’t expect any change. What change can a transport make ? But I was in for a real surprise ! The Linn sounded fast, easy and agile while the thorens sounded thick in the lower octaves. The thorens showed more body in the sound but I preferred the Linns clasik transport ! Lesson learned……

5. Some good news for believers in local talent. A high-end tube pre made by a local manufacturer massacred most other high-end imported preamps they compared it to. It is still in the prototype stage, so I can’t divulge any other details..:)) Good and exiting times ahead..:))

6. The Proac studio 140’s fed by the brystons using the analogue output from the Audio note valve DAC sounded sweet, full of life and refined. I missed the audio research pre amplifier though……
Some more stuff later when I have time………
TROJAN_HORSE
Gesperrt
#2 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 09:45
square wave wrote :


Two Saturday afternoons well spend…….


spend or spent---we all make mistakes don't we.
hsmraj
Ist häufiger hier
#3 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 11:56
Which transports did you audiotion. How much do these cost?
square_wave
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 12:23
One was a dedicated transport by Thorens (don’t remember the exact model) and we were comparing it to the Linn Clasik which we used as a transport. I really don’t know the prices. I don’t even know if it is for sale. Get in touch with Prithvi at absolutephase1@yahoo.com if you need details.
TROJAN_HORSE
Gesperrt
#5 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 13:38
square wave wrote :


I really don’t know the prices. I don’t even know if it is for sale. Get in touch with Prithvi at absolutephase1@yahoo.com if you need details.



Hahahaha, mate having us on? Don't tell me you don't know the prices even after you listened to them ,impressed with them and that too an A/B comparision and you didn't ask for the prices, were you so lost in the music---Mate and you don't even know whether they are for sale, then do you think it's just there for charity exhibition?. If it is that then i too would like to spend a couple of my saturday afternoons there.


[Beitrag von TROJAN_HORSE am 13. Jun 2005, 13:50 bearbeitet]
square_wave
Inventar
#6 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 15:59

TROJAN_HORSE schrieb:
square wave wrote :


I really don’t know the prices. I don’t even know if it is for sale. Get in touch with Prithvi at absolutephase1@yahoo.com if you need details.



Hahahaha, mate having us on? Don't tell me you don't know the prices even after you listened to them ,impressed with them and that too an A/B comparision and you didn't ask for the prices, were you so lost in the music---Mate and you don't even know whether they are for sale, then do you think it's just there for charity exhibition?. If it is that then i too would like to spend a couple of my saturday afternoons there.


Dude,
I am not in the market for a transport. I went there for something else. I was fortunate because Prithvi was in the mood for some experiments. Not everything any dealer has in his shop/house is for sale….The Thorens may or may not be for sale……You will have to ask him that.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#7 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 16:32
is the DIY valve preamp the Marantz clone which is being built by Siva...
i'd love to take a listen to it...
How is it...what is the indicative price...
is he willing to divulge the schematics for it..
Cheers,
Sachi
square_wave
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 16:47
It is done by siva. Unfortunately I couldn't listen to it. I missed it by a day.
From what I hear, We have a winner
You will need to contact siva for details Benks. It is still protoype stage from what I heard. It will be sometime, before it hits the market with proper chassis etc..
Arj
Inventar
#9 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 20:12

benkenobi schrieb:
is the DIY valve preamp the Marantz clone which is being built by Siva...
i'd love to take a listen to it...
How is it...what is the indicative price...
is he willing to divulge the schematics for it..
Cheers,
Sachi

Ben, is this a P7 clone ?
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#10 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 20:44
i think so..
Arj
Inventar
#11 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 21:09
had seen this link posted in another forum by a DIY guy
http://www.1388.com/...ch_for_an_ultim.html
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#12 erstellt: 13. Jun 2005, 21:28
i think that's the one....but..i'l look for other leads...thanks for the link Arjun..
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#13 erstellt: 14. Jun 2005, 04:07
Apparantly..the Marantz valve is rumoured to be a hyped product....at least that's what i readon the web...nonetheless am eager to give it a listen..

besides..all reviews(be it from amteurs or experts) have to be taken with a tonne of salt..


[Beitrag von benkenobi am 14. Jun 2005, 04:51 bearbeitet]
ravi
Ist häufiger hier
#14 erstellt: 19. Jun 2005, 09:51
square_wave, thanks for sharing your experience... whoever visits AP always seem to come back with such detailed notes on this forum!

hmm.. transports make a difference on a digital connect to a DAC? Then never ever trust that CDROM reader/writer on your PC ever again... you would end up with garbled files every single time - all the CDROMs out there in the market do not make sens e - the files on them would be corrupted by the time you open them.

The very fact that we read thousands of files from CDROMs everyday without once encountering a corrupted file error shows that transports are PERFECT for the job thay are designed to do. Even cheap ones like the PC CDROM transports.

Tell me the DAC makes a difference, I would agree (jitter, analog converter quality, noise, harmonics etc) - but when you tell me the transport connected to a DAC through a digital connect makes a difference, I would ask you to stick to floppy drives or better yet, punched-cards and do not go anywhere near CDROMs!
Arj
Inventar
#15 erstellt: 19. Jun 2005, 14:24
A large no of cdps actually do used CDROM transports

But i feel the best transport is a Hard drive.. very low Mech Moving parts and hence low jitter...

I just tried out the Apple Air tunes with a Laptop with Wifi playing Apple Lossless Music and an Air tunes wireless receiver plugged on to a MF X24 DAC (8 years old) and one could not differentiate it from a Atoll CD100 system..

Am really impressed and am sure this is the future.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#16 erstellt: 19. Jun 2005, 15:52

Arj schrieb:
A large no of cdps actually do used CDROM transports

But i feel the best transport is a Hard drive.. very low Mech Moving parts and hence low jitter...

I just tried out the Apple Air tunes with a Laptop with Wifi playing Apple Lossless Music and an Air tunes wireless receiver plugged on to a MF X24 DAC (8 years old) and one could not differentiate it from a Atoll CD100 system..

Am really impressed and am sure this is the future.


that's right. including Wadia and Krell and many other top rated companies.

i do agree that the hard disk is a better transport but there are a lot of isses that need to be worked out..
in critical listening the noise from the disk drive and the fans can be very irritating..
try listening to the sound ur computer generates by turning it on in the middle of the night..older hard drives make even more noise..
But there can be no doubt that the computer will take pride of place in a home entertainment system in the future..
Arj
Inventar
#17 erstellt: 19. Jun 2005, 19:53
Hi ben, in this case
The computer software only reads the music file and transmits it wireless still in the digital format ie only the Os and 1s the airtunes receiver just receives and gives it to the DAC. hence the sound of fans is not a problem as in this case the laptop could be even in the next room !

Technically there are some very high end rolloff at treble,and also some wireless dropoffs ( Jitter ?)..but very much on the lines of any entry levelor midfi cdp. and no one has been able to prove otherwise yet.

In fact there was a GERMAN study involving MP3 vs CD sources using a variety of source systms using the double blind test and the studies were very very interesting to say the least.

Unfortunately it was in german, but there was a discussion of sorts in another forum on this a while back

benkenobi schrieb:

i do agree that the hard disk is a better transport but there are a lot of isses that need to be worked out..
in critical listening the noise from the disk drive and the fans can be very irritating..
try listening to the sound ur computer generates by turning it on in the middle of the night..older hard drives make even more noise..
But there can be no doubt that the computer will take pride of place in a home entertainment system in the future..
Arj
Inventar
#18 erstellt: 19. Jun 2005, 19:57
additionally these are the times I really feel blessed that I have tin ears as i feel very little difference in CDps from USD 1000 or more..and where differences do creep in the cost is not worth the sound

My iPOd is a very worthy competitor, in my ears and very much IMHO, even to the Linn Classik hence...
Arj
Inventar
#19 erstellt: 19. Jun 2005, 20:01
BTW , if interested, the details on the DBT can be had at

http://played.by/dsdpcm
square_wave
Inventar
#20 erstellt: 21. Jun 2005, 14:00

ravi schrieb:
square_wave, thanks for sharing your experience... whoever visits AP always seem to come back with such detailed notes on this forum!

hmm.. transports make a difference on a digital connect to a DAC? Then never ever trust that CDROM reader/writer on your PC ever again... you would end up with garbled files every single time - all the CDROMs out there in the market do not make sens e - the files on them would be corrupted by the time you open them.

The very fact that we read thousands of files from CDROMs everyday without once encountering a corrupted file error shows that transports are PERFECT for the job thay are designed to do. Even cheap ones like the PC CDROM transports.

Tell me the DAC makes a difference, I would agree (jitter, analog converter quality, noise, harmonics etc) - but when you tell me the transport connected to a DAC through a digital connect makes a difference, I would ask you to stick to floppy drives or better yet, punched-cards and do not go anywhere near CDROMs!



I also believed the same until I heard it with my own ears.
Don’t ask me the technical details involved in this. I can only tell you what I heard. There is a reason why companies like Teac made the VRDS transport which weighs more than 25 kg. This transport is used in lot of high-end players like the wadia. Wadia even modifies it further for their high-end transports. Try and do a A/B comparison between two high-end transports with high resolution partnering equipment and then tell me that you didn’t hear any difference. There is no point in arguing about this unless you check it out yourself.
ravi
Ist häufiger hier
#21 erstellt: 21. Jun 2005, 14:15
square_wave, what did you hear? was it your mind telling you there must be something to Teac VRDS.. thats what you heard, nothing more nothing less (there must be something to what the Alchemists of yore did too.. so can you get Gold from Iron today?). What exactly do you mean by high-resolution equipment? The highest resolution one can ever get is no equipment at all - nothing at all to spoil what has been read from the CD - which is exactly what a PC file read from a CDROM is - PERFECT testcase to see if transports make a difference, without the effect of amps and speakers and imagination and psychology. I rest my case.
square_wave
Inventar
#22 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 07:32

ravi schrieb:
square_wave, what did you hear? was it your mind telling you there must be something to Teac VRDS.. thats what you heard, nothing more nothing less (there must be something to what the Alchemists of yore did too.. so can you get Gold from Iron today?). What exactly do you mean by high-resolution equipment? The highest resolution one can ever get is no equipment at all - nothing at all to spoil what has been read from the CD - which is exactly what a PC file read from a CDROM is - PERFECT testcase to see if transports make a difference, without the effect of amps and speakers and imagination and psychology. I rest my case.


1. High resolution equipment is needed if you want hear any substantial difference between stuff like cables, transports, DACS etc…
2. Going by your logic, all transports output the same stuff without any errors.
Why don’t you take the digital output of a T-series dvd player and a wadia or any high-end transport and do an A/B comparison yourself and then get back on this ? There is no point in arguing if you do not have first hand experience yourself.
Who are you to say what I heard is not true ? I know what I heard. In fact the observations of me and my friend was exactly the same even without us knowing what to expect from the comparison.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#23 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 07:52
going by theory there should be no difference between the two transports...
Digital is made to be flawless with absolutely none or almost nil losses..
by using whatever phillips or teac and comparing it to the wadia or something would result in no difference of the digital signal being transmitted....the only things that could introduce differences are if the signlal path to the coaxial rca jack is not properly isolated and it picks up some RFI which could introduce some difference in quantization levels...
but if u took each of these transports seperately and put them in equal test conditions(that is out of the box with necessay RFI sheilding) theoritically there should not be any difference..
atleast that is what i learnt in 4 years of Electronics...Ravi willknow better cause he has some first hand experience in the industry(maybe not directly but he works for the company wich owns Burr -BRown)..


[Beitrag von benkenobi am 22. Jun 2005, 07:53 bearbeitet]
square_wave
Inventar
#24 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 09:04
I agree that theoretically these should not make any difference. A bit is a bit. It is all 0’s and 1’s and as long as it is transmitted without any errors it should not make any difference at all. So in an ideal world with all transports working similarly and giving identical outputs, it should all sound the same. But I guess this is not an ideal world. I frankly do not know what is causing the difference. I guess someone who is into transports, could shed some light here. I surely can hear the difference and it is substantial. I was surprised. I used the same electronics and speakers with the same cable.
bhagwan69
Inventar
#25 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 09:44
22.06.2005.

Hi !

If you use the same Transport & the same DAC & same digital interconnect cable and just change the format of connection, the sound will change.

Please do let me try and explain this;

Transport's 'Digital Out' is connected into the DAC's 'Digital In' using 3 differest formats. AES/EBU [XLR] & SPDIF/RCA & SPDIF/BNC and the rest of the chain is kept the same, i.e. Pre Amplifier + Power Amplifier + Cables + Speakers etc. Then you do an A - B - C - comparison, you will surly 'hear' a difference - that to a definately palpable difference. Just ry it !!!

The synopsis being - every small change in a high end set up is 'audible' [well most of the time]. Hence if a Transport changes, the end result will surely change.

Bhagwan69
ravi
Ist häufiger hier
#26 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 10:44
I cant argue with ill informed conclusions. You can state an observation, not a conclusion. If you heard a difference, you heard it - but you cannot conclusively write here that it is due to transport - it might be your imagination or psychology. I think I have every right to put forward that view.

If its not an ideal world - well, spend Rs.200 more to get better shielded Digital coax - but dont argue you need something like Teac VRDS to counter this non-ideal world.

You still have not considered the CDROM point I raised. FYI, I have "first hand" experince in CDROMs - the highest resolution possible, not marred by speakers, amps and other stuff like in your "first hand" experince. So please I think we need to limit ourselves to observations if we cannot prove conclusively that it was not due to your imagination. You cant ignore cold hard logic based on subjective and suspect results.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#27 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 10:51

ravi schrieb:
I cant argue with ill informed conclusions. You can state an observation, not a conclusion. If you heard a difference, you heard it - but you cannot conclusively write here that it is due to transport - it might be your imagination or psychology. I think I have every right to put forward that view.

If its not an ideal world - well, spend Rs.200 more to get better shielded Digital coax - but dont argue you need something like Teac VRDS to counter this non-ideal world.

You still have not considered the CDROM point I raised. FYI, I have "first hand" experince in CDROMs - the highest resolution possible, not marred by speakers, amps and other stuff like in your "first hand" experince. So please I think we need to limit ourselves to observations if we cannot prove conclusively that it was not due to your imagination. You cant ignore cold hard logic based on subjective and suspect results.



i totally agree.
these results aer not objective...it is extremely subjective and it could be that u just felt u heard some difference just because it cost a whole lot more...
abhi.pani
Inventar
#28 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 11:57
Hey guys,
Its not fair...if squarewave heard a difference, then he is fully justified in saying that it was due to the transport because he has been repeatedly mentioning that rest all components were kept constant....cmon man if it were me or you, we all would have given the credit to the variable component (i.e transport in this case). It may involve a bit of psychological factor also but that is being over-emphasized here.

Benks, Its like the difference you discovered between your HK DVDP and the dedicated CDP at Prithvi's place. Even that comparision would have involved a bit of psychology but then it cannot rule out the credentials of a CDP !!!

Squarewave has done a A/B comparision and if he has heard a difference then it makes some sense and we should not and cannot rule out his conclusions entirely....
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#29 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 12:21
its not that i totally dismiss the idea of a transport making he music sound different.i'm all for any notion if it has enough scientific data that has been done professionally and has been tested and confirmed by others...till then , am sorry, i don't give a #r#p to anyone's judgements.....For me, it is hard to come to conclusionswhe they don't have a theoritical backing, let alone an experimental one...


regarding the CDP , that is completely different cause we were comparing the entire cdp i.e including the DAC and did not use the digital out...So there is bound to be difference and rightly so....it depends on how the DAC was intended and designed...not just what type of chips were used(though that too is significant..as Arjun had pointed out when this issue was at the fore)


[Beitrag von benkenobi am 22. Jun 2005, 12:26 bearbeitet]
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#30 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 12:25
always make sure u add the tag"My opinion " and not make it sound factual....for any kind of judgements or observations that u would like to make
square_wave
Inventar
#31 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 12:46
This is an endless argument. I can only tell you what I heard. Try and do an A/B if possible and come to your conclusions.
There are lots of people who say you need a double blind test to prove any of these things. There are endless arguments like this all over the net. I have read heated arguments on much respected forums like audio-asylum among experienced audiophiles that they cannot even differentiate between a cheapo dvd player and a high end cd-player. We know better. A couple of months back, I would have agreed with Benks. Not now.
I do not need to put “in my opinion” because I know what I heard. Opinions are subjective stuff like someone liking one speaker over the other. Somebody might like the one I didn’t. That is not the case here.
abhi.pani
Inventar
#32 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 12:49
Hey Benks,
I dont say we jump into conclusions right away...we should not either rightway disagree with Squarewave's observations/conclusions (it can be a observation for one and a conclusion for the other) just because he does not have the theoretical background about the whole episode...I mean a person does not need to know everything theoretically to put forward his observations/opinions in this forum, after all music has lot more to do than theory....

If I find a Thiel better than a Dynaudio, its very difficult to prove why (theoretically)!!!!
But only a person who has heard both of them with the same setup and environment can actually discuss with me in proper sense...

If you or Ravi have done the same experiment (with the same setup) and didnt find a difference then its well worth arguing otherwise its not because you are talking purely on Theoretical basis and Squarewave purely on practical comparision basis....
You both are on two different planes......
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#33 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 13:27

square_wave schrieb:

I do not need to put “in my opinion” because I know what I heard. Opinions are subjective stuff like someone liking one speaker over the other.



I am sorry. i just don't agree with you..
How can u ..one person with no scientific proof claim that transports make a difference...
I suggest u excercise extreme discretion and restraint before making ur statements factual......Experience means bull to me( i mean only in this judgement of audio gear stuff) show me facts, show me results..not some dumb A/B test...show me proof that can be proved and verified mathematicallty or scientifically by carrying out a fair and agrreable test to all partiies concerned...
So simply don't make statements like as though U are the authority on matters....
ravi
Ist häufiger hier
#34 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 13:54
Guys, you all have a point. The point benks and I are trying to make is, practical A/B comparisions come into play when theoretical analyses are complicated and not straightforward. For eg; no one can completely accurately model or analyse speaker-room interactions or speaker cone movements and distortions. The difference in the current debate is that there exists conclusive theoretical basis and argument which gives ample proof - personally I would consider it a complete waste of time for A/B in this case, just as it is a waste of time to see whether a file read from a CDROM results in the same file in your PC and mine!! So, if you ask me to do A/B stuff for this, I would similarly ask you to read a file on your PC and compare with another PC - sounds ridiculous doesnt it..? what you are asking me to do in terms of A/B sounds just as ridiculous to me. But the fact is, even a cheap transport reads exactly the same string of 1's and 0's. square-wave, you are aware of these facts and acknowledged them so yourslef - just that you heard a difference - so I think you should try and come to the root cause of the difference if you really acknowledge the above theoretical facts, rather than jumping to the conclusion in a forum where newbies could get influenced. My concern with these posts is that they help spread flase information more and more in a field that is already riddled with enough misinformation and "superstition"! Nothing more than that. I find it sad when everyday unsuspecting people are conned of lakhs based on misinformation that has spread like wildfire without basing it on sound observations or facts. We can lend a hand here to bring some "light" into audio
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#35 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 13:58
well...i don't think anyone is going to have any difficulty in trying to grasp what I have been trying to say after that...
Thanks Ravi for putting it in a much more simpler way....
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#36 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 14:09
ravi wrote :


My concern with these posts is that they help spread flase information more and more in a field that is already riddled with enough misinformation and "superstition"! Nothing more than that. I find it sad when everyday unsuspecting people are conned of lakhs based on misinformation


thats very true as some dealers are bent upon making you beleive that if it costs more it has to sound good... Thats a ton of BS.....yes I too agree that few stuff costing a lot are worth the moneys , but not all...may be I'm sounding too amateur like here but I fail to understand what the hell does the 25 kilo TEAC transport consisit of worth all the $$$, can anyone explain???????
bouurrrppp


[Beitrag von SUB_BOSS am 22. Jun 2005, 14:11 bearbeitet]
Nagaraj
Ist häufiger hier
#37 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 14:48
Hello All,

Check out the following link :

http://www.scalatech.co.uk/papers/aes93.pdf

The above is a paper titled "Is The AESEBU/SPDIF Digital Audio Interface Flawed?" that was presented at an AES convention way back in 1993.

square_wave wasn't the first person to hear subjective differences in music based on different CD transports - the above paper has a reference to an article in the November 1988 issue of Stereophile about this kind of differences observed!!! This debate goes back a long way...

I have not gone through the above paper in detail myself yet but believe the authors have tried to possibly explain why such behaviour is observed. As for the relevance of the title of the paper to this thread - I quote "digital data is transmitted from the transport to the DAC in a serial format known as the Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format (SPDIF)". This paper attempts to examine whether there are flaws in the standard itself.

This is all very dated though and since then I presume lots of changes may have been made to the standard itself.

Hope this helps us all in trying to understand the problem a little better.

Thanks and Regards,
- Nagaraj
square_wave
Inventar
#38 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 14:55

benkenobi schrieb:

square_wave schrieb:

I do not need to put “in my opinion” because I know what I heard. Opinions are subjective stuff like someone liking one speaker over the other.



I am sorry. i just don't agree with you..
How can u ..one person with no scientific proof claim that transports make a difference...
I suggest u excercise extreme discretion and restraint before making ur statements factual......Experience means bull to me( i mean only in this judgement of audio gear stuff) show me facts, show me results..not some dumb A/B test...show me proof that can be proved and verified mathematicallty or scientifically by carrying out a fair and agrreable test to all partiies concerned...
So simply don't make statements like as though U are the authority on matters....


For me the difference is in the hearing. Not measurement. Most of the time spec sheets are as good as toilet paper to me. Ask any well seasoned audiophile worth his salt and he will tell you the same. As far as I have learned, EXPERIENCE the only thing you can trust in audio. Try ordering some audio equipment that measure fine over the net without hearing them and you will know.
We both are traveling different paths…..I guess our paths will never meet. I am resting my case here.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#39 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 15:14

square_wave schrieb:

benkenobi schrieb:

square_wave schrieb:

I do not need to put “in my opinion” because I know what I heard. Opinions are subjective stuff like someone liking one speaker over the other.



I am sorry. i just don't agree with you..
How can u ..one person with no scientific proof claim that transports make a difference...
I suggest u excercise extreme discretion and restraint before making ur statements factual......Experience means bull to me( i mean only in this judgement of audio gear stuff) show me facts, show me results..not some dumb A/B test...show me proof that can be proved and verified mathematicallty or scientifically by carrying out a fair and agrreable test to all partiies concerned...
So simply don't make statements like as though U are the authority on matters....


For me the difference is in the hearing. Not measurement. Most of the time spec sheets are as good as toilet paper to me. Ask any well seasoned audiophile worth his salt and he will tell you the same. As far as I have learned, EXPERIENCE the only thing you can trust in audio. Try ordering some audio equipment that measure fine over the net without hearing them and you will know.
We both are traveling different paths…..I guess our paths will never meet. I am resting my case here.



could'nt agree wityh you more on the spec sheets...
Like Junia and i were saying..about the Vifa drivers that u get or whate vver...
specs mean bull...in most cases..but in some cases for some semblance of understanding u need a minimum of specs..otherwise u would castigate all companies as BOSE..

True it is all in the listening but there is no fun listening to ur so called high resolution systems cause then u got to sit down and listen to what I refer to as boring Jazz type of music...if u want to rock...u don't need a high resolution speaker u need one that is full range or one with a sub attached...that's all ineed to rock on and get high..
with decent levels of faithfulness to what is recorded on to that disc of plastic..
Nagaraj
Ist häufiger hier
#40 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 15:21
Hello,

Can't help digging out more on this interesting topic...

http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/
Article - A Transport of Delight: CD Transport Jitter
that specifically contains details about transport induced jitter and how it has been measured.

Portion of the article...
"Not that long ago, digital audio was considered perfect if all the bits could be stored and retrieved without data errors. If the data coming off the disc were the same as what went on the disc, how could there be a sound-quality difference with the same digital/analog converter? This "bits is bits" mentality scoffs at sonic differences between CD transports, digital interfaces, and CD tweaks. Because none of these products or devices affects the pattern of ones and zeros recovered from the disc, any differences must be purely in the listener's imagination. After all, they argued, a copy of a computer program runs just as well as the original.

As our knowledge of digital audio has become more sophisticated, however, we've learned that the timing of those ones and zeros is of utmost importance. It isn't enough to get the bits right; those bits have to be converted back into music with the same timing reference as when the music was first digitized."

Thanks and Regards,
- Nagaraj
ravi
Ist häufiger hier
#41 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 15:23
square-wave, remember, the "toilet paper" is what cleans out the "shit".. bull or otherwise!
Personally, I would prefer an approach of logical argument supported by hearing confirmation or vice versa, in cases where there is strong analytical evidence that can be trusted. Otherwise, it is a case of a fool and his money. Would you think the engineers that picked out the electronic components to be used in the internal circuits based it all on hearing.. certainly not... they base it on perfectly logical conclusions and equations as a first step.

Nagaraj, thanks for the link - it deals with interface errors in non-ideal situations, but still cannot justify spending on expensive transports that will again operate over the same interface standard! Sure, if square-wave heard a difference it could be the interface link was flawed with a poorly shielded cable or electrically noisy environment or a thousand other things - not a transport problem per se.
Nagaraj
Ist häufiger hier
#42 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 15:58

ravi schrieb:

Personally, I would prefer an approach of logical argument supported by hearing confirmation or vice versa, in cases where there is strong analytical evidence that can be trusted.

I believe the second link I posted, the Stereophile article, does provide a more detailed explanation about this phenomenon.

ravi schrieb:

Nagaraj, thanks for the link - it deals with interface errors in non-ideal situations, but still cannot justify spending on expensive transports that will again operate over the same interface standard.

The intention in posting both the above links was to highlight the fact that the perception of varying audio quality based on CD transports is something that has been investigated in a scientific manner. These are two links I could pick out in a fifteen minute search on Google. I am sure there would more interesting stuff to be found out on this topic and other folks would have worked on this too.

The Stereophile article (in particular) and the paper stress on how jitter could possibly affect quality. Is it that more expensive transports have better mechanisms to reduce this jitter?

Thanks and Regards,
- Nagaraj
ravi
Ist häufiger hier
#43 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 16:19
Nagraj, indeed your second link addresses it. I appreciate the logical approach that you are taking here! The bit (no pun intended) that Robert Harley wrote about transport jitter not getting completely attenuated at DAC end is true, but technology has developed since 93. I could pick out a Mark Levinson legacy link from 1995 that addressed this problem - it was high end at that time but this technology is used commonplace now, more so in DVD transports -
http://www.marklevin...asp?cat=cd&prod=no37

I was able to go back and dig up a couple more forum links that have similar lines of discussion and have more details on the FIFO being used to attenuate jitter completely.
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-11571.html
http://www.hydrogena...ndex.php/t11909.html

The second link above has some interesting info towards the end that explains how the fundamental problem of infinite jitter attenuation with FIFO - that of buffer overruns and underruns - is overcome in good DACs. Note that this problem is completely absent if a FIFO is implemented within the transport section itself, by clocking out at a constant rate and modulating the servo drive angular velocity to avoid buffer overruns - which is what modern transports incorporate, from the cheapest to the most expensive.

I admit, I have not accounted for the possibility that the transport models that square_wave heard could be dated and might not have possibly incorporated the above technologies which even a 5K philips DVDP today would have.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#44 erstellt: 22. Jun 2005, 16:27
more more..i want more...
Give me more info.....thanks for that insight Ravi, Nagraj..
jsa_ind
Stammgast
#45 erstellt: 23. Jun 2005, 01:56
Hi All,

I am inclined to go by what Ravi, Benks Nagaraj say, a 100%.

If technical specifications had no meaning then why do reputed companies give technical specifications after all ?

Apart from the technical specifications of components & loudspeaker drivers, it is like saying " I think I hear 50 watts coming out of this amp & so fifty watts it is" ...instead of going through the technical specifications and seeing what the rating actually is technically.

Yes for those individuals who cannot interpret technical specifications & correlate it with their listening perception, or for those companies who have inferior products & want to mask their deficiency behind the veil of so called listening tests ( in environments suited to hype their product/s), technical specifications are toilet paper to them ......you cannot blame them after all....poor souls...they are self deceived...a very small fish in a very small bowl of water.

Regards,

Junia.
viren
Stammgast
#46 erstellt: 23. Jun 2005, 05:08
Hello all,

This last posting by Junia just riled me up. Till now I was taking all this in with some amusement, putting it to a lot of inexperience and lack of serious listening.

But the insinuations that a supposedly learned listener like Junia puts out just have to be answered. Makes me seriously doubt about the abilities of some of you to be discerning listeners.

I will not get into the debate of the superiority of the subjective or the objective camps. Each is entitled to their own opinions. But there is a line to be drawn - when you ridicule the other, you just show your own ignorance!

Let us not forget that all our efforts here are in service of music - to further enhance our enjoyment of it. What other gauge of enjoyment is there other than listening to music through your audio systems. Can you listen to a page full of equipment specifications?

Viren.
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#47 erstellt: 23. Jun 2005, 06:45

viren schrieb:
Hello all,
putting it to a lot of inexperience and lack of serious listening.



You sir, need to understand that experience counts crap in such a field(specifically in audio equipment calibration 'tests') ......and what do u mean by serious listening....i am just not able to grasp the idea of 'serious' listening.


[Beitrag von benkenobi am 23. Jun 2005, 06:48 bearbeitet]
benkenobi
Hat sich gelöscht
#48 erstellt: 23. Jun 2005, 06:56

viren schrieb:


Let us not forget that all our efforts here are in service of music - to further enhance our enjoyment of it. What other gauge of enjoyment is there other than listening to music through your audio systems. Can you listen to a page full of equipment specifications?



When it comes to factual statements like squarewave made..i'd like more thatn just a couple of pairs of ears endorsing them...i mean who knows, there are just too many variables..u just can't pin it on transports and say .."Yes! that's the one!".."Thats' the difference i am hearing!"

Statements like this are very predujiced and need to be thought out before you post and even if you do, please make it explicitly known that it is your opinion and and we'll definitely go ahead and try to investigate..


Cheers,
Benks


[Beitrag von benkenobi am 23. Jun 2005, 07:00 bearbeitet]
jsa_ind
Stammgast
#49 erstellt: 23. Jun 2005, 07:13
Dear Viren,

You seemed to have misunderstood what I wrote in my last post.

I had written "Yes for those individuals who cannot interpret technical specifications & correlate it with their listening perception........" I had mentioned correlate...which means compare.

You are a manufacturer so I can relate to you....if in your circuit, it is called upon to use a 10 k resistor you would naturally use a 10 K resistor after which you could choose subjectively, if you like the sound off a 10 K resistor having a tolerance of 10% or 5% or 1% or 0.5% and X or Y or Z brands to your ears...... that is subjective & you are entitled to choose what you think best in your circuit. But you will not however put a 100 K resistor in place of a 10 K resistor...why??..., because the circuit SPECIFIES a 10K Resistor ONLY. You cannot say I subjectively think I should put a 100K resistor here when the circuit say's 10 K ...yes as you tweak the circuit 10K may go to 12 K...but all this is based on certain relative standards as called upon in the circuit you have in mind.

Going one step further based on specifications you built a product. There are specific equipment built by companies like Neutrik & Audio Precision that bench mark products that are built on specifications of a circuit.

Here the manufacturer may choose to test & publicize those specifications or choose not to...the choice is entirely up to the manufacturer.

If a manufacturer does not publicize the specifications, a discerning customer will question why specifications are not published. To the gullible and innocent they would be taken in with the hype that specification are not required at all and everything is subjective.

If specification are published based on established standards and test equipment, then a discerning listener will take those specification & then subjectively analyze what he is hearing and come to a conclusion whether he likes or does not like a product...that is what I meant by "correlate"....remember the manufacturer make the same evaluation while going about his design....specifications & then subjective listening.

Unfortunately we do live in a world that is relative to certain standards. We are free to take those relative standards and then make subjective analysis...but to live in a world where everything was subjective would have only lead to chaos ...

If I am wrong in my conclusion, please correct me Sir.

Regards,

Junia.


[Beitrag von jsa_ind am 23. Jun 2005, 07:38 bearbeitet]
SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt
#50 erstellt: 23. Jun 2005, 07:36
sub wrote :


yes I too agree that few stuff costing a lot are worth the moneys , but not all...may be I'm sounding too amateur like here but I fail to understand what the hell does the 25 kilo TEAC transport consisit of worth all the $$$, can anyone explain???????


C'mon guys ravi 'n' others shoot your answer.....
square_wave
Inventar
#51 erstellt: 23. Jun 2005, 07:44

jsa_ind schrieb:
Hi All,

I am inclined to go by what Ravi, Benks Nagaraj say, a 100%.

If technical specifications had no meaning then why do reputed companies give technical specifications after all ?

Apart from the technical specifications of components & loudspeaker drivers, it is like saying " I think I hear 50 watts coming out of this amp & so fifty watts it is" ...instead of going through the technical specifications and seeing what the rating actually is technically.

Yes for those individuals who cannot interpret technical specifications & correlate it with their listening perception, or for those companies who have inferior products & want to mask their deficiency behind the veil of so called listening tests ( in environments suited to hype their product/s), technical specifications are toilet paper to them ......you cannot blame them after all....poor souls...they are self deceived...a very small fish in a very small bowl of water.

Regards,

Junia.


Let me make myself clear here.
What I meant is spec sheets are useless to me if the equipment can’t make music for me. I don’t really care what the equipment measures if it does the job for me right. I have spent a number of years hanging around in a recording studio because the engineer is my friend. I listen to live Jazz as and when possible. I used to play the guitar (acoustic variety) and most of my college friends are musicians. We used to jam up with real instruments often. So I relate to real and natural sound whenever I listen to reproduced music. I am very used to the natural sound reproduced in the sound room of the studio. If the sound is close to “real” and “natural” I like the equipment if not I don’t like it. I have heard quite a number of hyped up so—called perfectly measuring equipment which I didn’t like at all. Even if somebody gifts it to me, I won’t have it anywhere near me.
From a pure tech point of view, spec sheets are very useful. I give it due importance. Without stringent specs, nobody can make musical sounding equipment. It gives me a glance of what it is capable of. But that is how far I will go with a spec sheet. Then the real measurement with my ears starts. If it does not measure up, it is a worthless piece of junk for me. Maybe a very expensive paper weight. End of the day, music is notes and I listen to it with MY EARS.
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