General Indian budget for a preamp?

50% of what he is willing to spend on a DAC

If it is a phono preamp it will be min of 200% of his cartridge cost

Sandeep,

A budget audiophile (like yours truely) would probably look at splitting his amp budget down the middle to go pre-power. A typical amp budget would be around 50K, so he might look at 25-25 or a 30-20 break-up between pre and power respectively (IMHO)

I beg to differ guys ....

Except for the VERY high end, I think Indian Mid Fi & Fi audiophiles buy only intergrateds...

ZERO budget for Pre amps. No ?

Amp Nut, Good one

I beg to differ guys .... Except for the VERY high end, I think Indian Mid Fi & Fi audiophiles buy only intergrateds... ZERO budget for Pre amps. No ?

Evil_Nut....

I would go for an integrated than buying a cheap power and pre...

Actually thats what I did

Wanted to go pre-power but didn't have enuff money...so got an integrated...

Wise move.... and less money to the Cable makers too !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

I beg to differ guys .... Except for the VERY high end, I think Indian Mid Fi & Fi audiophiles buy only intergrateds... ZERO budget for Pre amps. No ?

I could not agree more.

All low - fi & mid - fi set up should only be intergrateds.

A half descent pre amp will set up back 2 K US to say the least. Any other 'budget' pre amplifier is not worth its weight in salt. Too much noise & poor quality components & just not happening.

It is better to just go and buy a more powerful & better quality int amp instead.

BHAGWAN

Sonic_Master schrieb:

how much an budget audiophile can spend for preamp? cheers, Sandeep

Basic system set up & component cost break up :-

Source - 25 %

Amplification - 30 %

Speakers - 35 %

Cables - 6 % to 7 %

Power & Racks [accessories] - 3 % to 4 %

Now, if the budget crossed 250 K to 300 K then the amplification can be broken down to Pre & Power in 40 % & 60 % respectively.
Basically, if you have Rs. 100/- K to spend on Amplification, stick to Int. Amps. only.

BHAGWAN

I tend to agree with bhagwan. Most of the times a good integrated fits the bill.

manek.

Hi !

Do you mean to say that cheaper separates are not good enough to be even slightly better than integrated? Say e.g. NAD pre- & power- amps won't be better than an integrated of equivalent price?

Regards

Sanjay

Hi SD and all
The answer is probably YES. Ultimately it depends on the partner equipment. Only if you have pushed your source and the speakers to a point where the integrated is a constraint should you venture into separates. Even here the answer might be a better Integrated. The is also the factor of space. In the end its about getting a balanced system where all components are performing to the max of their capabilities. For most of us Indian audiophiles Integrateds will remain our mainstay.
Purnendu

Hi

I was planning on the Marantz SR-7500 or the Sonodyne Pre-Power. Both come up to almost the same price.
Is the Integrated Marantz a better choice than the Sonodyne separates?

Raj

What are the prices for these two, and what is the rest of your kit like. Are there other established products to compare with these two.
Purnendu

juggy_25 schrieb:

Hi I was planning on the Marantz SR-7500 or the Sonodyne Pre-Power. Both come up to almost the same price. Is the Integrated Marantz a better choice than the Sonodyne separates? Raj

This is a very very nice amplifier from Marantz :-

http://us.marantz.com/Products/630.asp

PM-11S1 Reference Series Integrated Amplifier
$4399.00

However, if you do confront a budgetary constraint, then you may consider :-

http://us.marantz.com/Products/1189.asp

PM-15S1 Reference Series Integrated Stereo Amplifier
$2099.00

I personally prefer the former to the latter.

The 1st one, i.e. PM-11S1 is a brilliant Int. Amp.

BHAGWAN

SDhawan schrieb:

Hi ! Do you mean to say that cheaper separates are not good enough to be even slightly better than integrated? Say e.g. NAD pre- & power- amps won't be better than an integrated of equivalent price? Regards Sanjay

Please do site some examples & we may comment on it. i.e. Int. Amps. .....

The Nad Power Amp is nice, great VFM. The problem is the pre amp. A good pre amp is just very very expesive.

I would rather buy a better quality int. amp than try and play around with entry level pre & power.

Alternately get a nice CD Player with a built in volume control & go direct to Power Amplifier. This is a better solution.

Wadia entry level 302, I think, or Audio Aero Prima or the Opera Consonance 2.2 reference with volume control.

BHAGWAN

actually whether you need it or not, depends on your school of thought and on your Source to a large extent.

1. minimalistic.. the less the components you have in your chain, the better is the sound ie ideal combination is a CDP with a digital control feeding an amp directly.

hnce lower no of cables.. power supply only for 2 componets etc etc


2. More controls. Trnasport-dAC-Pre-Amps-Crossovers

well here you have more controls and more options to upgrade/downdrade/sidegrade. you can bring the "tone" of music to how you want it through innumerable changes.


What you choose depends on what you want. you can have separates Pre/power proving better quality than integerated and the other way around.


Eg if your CDP has a high gain output a simple amp with a built in volume pot migght give you the best sound. but if you have a output sensitive CDP, then you may need a good quality pre to equalise and isolate the CDP output from the Amps load to provide the best sound and so on.

In terms on entry level I doubt if there is going to be a great improvement in sound with a separate..in fact for the same cost you may be getting a lower value as a separate means that you need to pay extra for the different PSUs, Casings, etc etc.. while with integerated it can be assumed that the cost is lower hence for the sma proice you are getting a better value as the abosve are mor optimised..

then again the company might be subsidising its pre power at the expence of its integerated hence the pre ppower providing more value etc etc etc..

I know this was really rambling but what I was trying to get was that there is not real generalisation here and the difference might be far more subtle than you think. since there are enough experienced audiophiles arguing for both cases.

Hi Thanks Arj & Bhagwan ! I got your point.

But let's take a specific example - I have a NAD C320BEE Amp. Now suppose I want to upgrade & I have a limited budget (like most earthly audiophiles). How should I go about it? Options:

1. Add a power amp & use pre-out from the existing amp & later add a separate pre.
2. Add a pre amp & feed it into the power section of my present amp and later add a popwer amp
3. Buy a pre and a power amp
4. Buy an integrated amp of teh same amount
5. Buy a tube amp of same amount
6. Plan a hybrid combo - Tube/SS X pre/power
7. I could even add two Class D monoblocks to my pre-out

I hope I have succeeded in making the choice difficult

Regards

Sanjay

Hi Sanjay,

Very simple. The best upgrade - go valve electronics all the way!

Viren.

well, for any upgrade IMHO you need to upgrade the one which makes the biggest difference for the buck.

Ill exclude the room here due to obvious reasons..but then the speaker is the single biggest influential factor. if you can change that you get the best possible upgrade.

IMHO the NAD320BEE is a pretty good amp for its price and if you want to upgrade you move to to a much higher price level .if you have already found the speaker of your dreams at the right budget level then you can think of the Amp ..but for the real value of a higher amp you need a better speaker anyway !

Additionally I honestly am not sure if the pre amp will give you more benefits..perhaps a better source might just give you a better upgrade. maybe you can try the new Chinese DACs from someone near you etc and see if that improves your sound for you, if so that could be your upgrade path ?


A tube Pre is definitely an option..maybe you can speak with manek on that since I believe he has done it...but my suggestion would be, if you really want to do it, to redo your speakers

Dear Arj,

I understand the speaker bit but what I meant was that if I had to look at upgrading only my Amp and here NAD C320BEE is just a difficult example.

Dear Viren,

Is the choice really THAT simple ?

Regards

Sanjay

I have no idea whether a separate pre and power improves the sound. However, these benefits are real:
1. A cheaper way to get into hi-end audio: Buy the power first and the pre later only if you can afford it.
2. A choice of using valve and SS for pre and power in either combination.
3. Superior current capability: my observation is that the separate power amps pack in decent capabilities (better power supplies) as otherwise no one would buy them.

How will be if the pre is arround 15k and the amp is arround 15k? that combo?

what do u suggest? go with that or spend 30k for integrated?

the target is : very good sonic quality...

waiting for ur opinion....

cheers,
Sandeep

We can argue for hours as to what equipment suits someone the best. There are thousands of audio manufacturers offering thousands of equipment combinations. In all these suggestions, the stress in inherently on equipment.

If looking at equipment satisfies, then so be it. At the risk of repeating it, we all miss the point - the stress should be in enjoying what comes out of that equipment. Then, all these ruminations about equipment become moot.

An extremely simple system and an extremely complex system may give the same level of musical enjoyment. Then both systems are equivalent. To my mind, however, the simpler system wins hands down!

Viren.

viren schrieb:

We can argue for hours as to what equipment suits someone the best. There are thousands of audio manufacturers offering thousands of equipment combinations. In all these suggestions, the stress in inherently on equipment. If looking at equipment satisfies, then so be it. At the risk of repeating it, we all miss the point - the stress should be in enjoying what comes out of that equipment. Then, all these ruminations about equipment become moot. An extremely simple system and an extremely complex system may give the same level of musical enjoyment. Then both systems are equivalent. To my mind, however, the simpler system wins hands down! Viren.

That brings to mind the saying that surprisingly keep appearing in an imported audio mag……….

“A fool knows the cost of everything but the value of none “

well it can be looked at it in multiple ways.
you can get into this just to enjoy the music.. as many claim.

But you can also get into this to have a good system- ie equipment lust. i do know and have met folks for whom the "system" they have is more important than the music (typically they will have only audiophile cds)

but as long as they get pleasure in the system, i guess there is nothing wrong there ;).

Having recently deveoped interest in photography , i occasionally freqent the photo forums and the most common discusion is on Lens Envy and how everyone is planning his/her next lens, flash or body upgrade..hardly 10% focus on photography technique/composition etc !

so I guess equipment lust has to do more with people than any particular hobby.

Tech toys for big boys !!!!!

Regards

Sanjay

SDhawan schrieb:

Hi Thanks Arj & Bhagwan ! I got your point. Sanjay

Just save up [if you need to i.e.] and buy an Integrated Amplifier. Simple. Cannot go wrong.

Marantz or Primare

Bhagwan

P.S. Actually do not save up, just re-arrange your priorities. Funds are always there, it is the will to spend that is absent.

Arj schrieb:

well it can be looked at it in multiple ways. you can get into this just to enjoy the music.. as many claim. so I guess equipment lust has to do more with people than any particular hobby.

I would love to agree with you;
However, I cannot.
It is just not possible to enjoy the music one loves on a CD that is 'mastered' poorly or the Glass Master is imported, but the pressing is India. One can simply 'hear' the things going wrong & that too on a mid-fi set up.

So, although there will always be music loveres & there will be audio lovers [equipment lovers i.e.] but very rarely will you find music lovers being satisfied audio lovers.

There is just not enough good quality music [I mean from the recording point of view] out there that can be listed to on Hi-Fi set ups. Sad but true.

Bhagwan

There is just not enough good quality music [I mean from the recording point of view] out there that can be listed to on Hi-Fi set ups. Sad but true.

couldnt agree with you more This perhaps is the single most important problem plaguing the growth of good hifi and thus having this two separate groups in the first place.. how tterribly sad


i guess my tin ears are at an advantage here .. thankfully have not lost out on the ability (?) to even enjoy MP3 rips of old hindi songs..but these days 128kbps really annoys me but usually 256 and above sound pretty good.

but then i tend to go for slightly forgiving equipment.. considering the range of music i listen to high resolution is unfortunately a curse.. I still have a collection of Asha and Rafi songs and that goes along with jazz ,fusion and rock for me...

sad from a hifi view but works personally well for me as i got into hifi to hear my existing collection better !!

Hi !

I think there are times / days when you are in "Music Mode" and days when you are in "Equipment Mode". When in music mode everything sounds good as long it plays good music. When in "Equipment Mode" everything sounds bad - be it the power-cord, the cables, the room

And sadly these "Modes" (you may call them "moods") are not under voluntary control.

Arj schrieb:

thankfully have not lost out on the ability (?) to even enjoy MP3 rips of old hindi songs..but these days 128kbps really annoys me but usually 256 and above sound pretty good. but then i tend to go for slightly forgiving equipment.. considering the range of music i listen to high resolution is unfortunately a curse.. I still have a collection of Asha and Rafi songs and that goes along with jazz ,fusion and rock for me... sad from a hifi view but works personally well for me as i got into hifi to hear my existing collection better !!

Glad to know that your heart wins over your head. I have MP3s down to 64kbps mono (yes, such things do exist) but my focus is on the artist and the music

Yes, I know that good recordings and high bitrates sound a lot better. But then one has to have one's priorities right. The only sad thing is that a good recording combined with a good system makes music sound natural. But if you really love an artist, to hell with the recording

Has anyone really done an A-B blind test of good recording vs bad recording? If I bought a CD from the roadside, I would "know" that it has to sound bad. But, does it?

Has anyone really done an A-B blind test of good recording vs bad recording? If I bought a CD from the roadside, I would "know" that it has to sound bad. But, does it?

I always buy original CDs from proper outlets and even then many a times the recording is pathetic. It's regardless of recording company, price, etc. So there seems to be no bias or imagination working

Neutral schrieb:

Has anyone really done an A-B blind test of good recording vs bad recording? If I bought a CD from the roadside, I would "know" that it has to sound bad. But, does it?

I have by having two different pressings of a dire straits cd a US and a malay one and the difference was quite apparent in the treble area.but that was using a pretty revealing system.

but bit rates are very obviously. what you miss are the harmonics and also the decay:attack. listen to a triangle in a 128 and a 320 the difference is pretty onvious. the former actually sounds tinny and not delicate as it should be.

Neutral schrieb:

Glad to know that your heart wins over your head. I have MP3s down to 64kbps mono (yes, such things do exist) but my focus is on the artist and the music

to some extent it depends on the memory effect as well. the track heard together on the first date is always great not matter what the bit rate as it is not just the sound but also the emotions there which matter.
so i can (and do) hear that song even on a 64kbps vbr

Arj schrieb:

Neutral schrieb: Has anyone really done an A-B blind test of good recording vs bad recording? If I bought a CD from the roadside, I would "know" that it has to sound bad. But, does it? I have by having two different pressings of a dire straits cd a US and a malay one and the difference was quite apparent in the treble area.but that was using a pretty revealing system. but bit rates are very obviously. what you miss are the harmonics and also the decay:attack. listen to a triangle in a 128 and a 320 the difference is pretty onvious. the former actually sounds tinny and not delicate as it should be.

Yes, the treble is the key. I had a low bitrate version of Celine Dion's "My Heart will go on" at the time that track was really hot. It sounded terrible when I compared it to a CD containing the same song that I bought later. Low bitrates sound raspy. They have no "air". High frequencies are killed at 18KHz. So the upper harmonics are lost. The horrid part is when you compare them to an original CD. When played on computers with cheap speakers, they sound fine. Especially, when you have nothing to compare them with, you have no clue as to what you are missing.

I downloaded a free track, Soothe, of Bjorn Lynne and it sounded fairly miserable compared to some other (Fairy Woods etc) of his tracks that he provides at a higher bitrate. Pity one's fate if one plays a poor recording on an electrostat / magneplanar.

SDhawan schrieb:

Has anyone really done an A-B blind test of good recording vs bad recording? If I bought a CD from the roadside, I would "know" that it has to sound bad. But, does it? I always buy original CD's from proper outlets and even then many a times the recording is pathetic. It's regardless of recording company, price, etc. So there seems to be no bias or imagination working

I have several CD's with multiple copies, i.e. 1 album pressed in different countries.
I cannot begin to explain the difference to you.
E.G. I have a CD of OST Last Temptation of Christ - Peter Gabrial - Passion Album. I have the SACD + CD [US Pressing] + CD [Austria - EU] + CD [Japan]. Of the 4 copies I have the Japanese pressing just walks all over the other 3, you cannot even begin to compare. You have to hear it to believe the difference.

Hence, even 'original' CD's have variations and they just have to be experianced to be understoon. ECM on German & US Pressings sound so different. One of my Reference CD's is Making Music on ECM - German Pressing i.e.

BHAGWAN

Bhagwan,have you found significant diff in the sound quality bet an original Cd & its computer burnt copy? Between an original CD & a FLAC ?
To echo Sanjay's Qn, would you be able to make out which is which if you were to listen while someone else played the difft original pressings/Computer burnt copy/FLAC version in random order?
I do hope that you wont take offence ,the qn is asked out of objective curiousity.

Bhagwan,
I too have heard this difference many many times....between pressings avialable here and from abroad. I have heard differences in MJQ release, the album "concorde"
There are differences between releases and re-releases in the same country as well.....eg. Oscar Peterson "We get requests".

Manek.

Kamal schrieb:

Bhagwan,have you found significant diff in the sound quality bet an original Cd & its computer burnt copy? Between an original CD & a FLAC ? To echo Sanjay's Qn, would you be able to make out which is which if you were to listen while someone else played the difft original pressings/Computer burnt copy/FLAC version in random order? I do hope that you wont take offence ,the qn is asked out of objective curiousity.

Sure ! Difference is apparent - no doubt. However, you need to have them played on the fly through the same pre amplifier & power amplifier & speakers. There need to be be 2 CD players connected to the same pre amplifier & the software is juggled between the 2 cd players to make the comparison.

The pre amp is programmed for spl difference of the 2 CD players & both the discs are played on them simultaneously.

Forget Computer CD's & Regular CD's. The difference in Original CD's of different pressings can be 'heard' no doubt.

If you are asking me to differenciate on the same CD player, i.e. I play disc A on 1 cd player & then take it out & play disc B on 1 cd player, then I cannot tell the difference. I do not have such 'audio memory'.

Bhagwan

Bhagwan,
By using 2 CD players you have added another variable to the equation.

I belive in getting gear/CD that gives me satisfaction on a longer averaged time, ie if my limited audio memory tells me A is better than B I'll go in for A. For example the copy protected re-release of Western Clasical Music by EMI is unbearable, you dont need any A -B swap for them.

By swapping A & B you can hear most of the minute difference between them but if I cannot remember (distingush) which is better, I am not worried as long as I like the music. I find most Hindi Film music CDs poorly recorded but at the same time enjoy Malayalam film music CDs

ani schrieb:

Bhagwan, By using 2 CD players you have added another variable to the equation. ie if my limited audio memory tells me A is better than B I'll go in for A. For example the copy protected re-release of Western Clasical Music by EMI is unbearable, you dont need any A -B swap for them. By swapping A & B you can hear most of the minute difference between them but if I cannot remember (distingush) which is better, I am not worried as long as I like the music. I find most Hindi Film music CDs poorly recorded but at the same time enjoy Malayalam film music CDs :)

Sir, you see you are a 'music lover' first & an 'audiophile' next. In my case, it is the other way round. I am only an 'audiophile'. My love for music is rather limited......

To try and address the points that you have raised :-

2 CD Players are required to evaluate the 2 CD's side by side. But we compensate for the spl difference on the pre amplifier & keep on changing the CD's from player to player. Hence the CD Player itself gets ruled out.

I could not agree with you more on the EMI front. The CD's are below par. The mp3's that one can get from the net are far far better than the EMI's. Absolute RUBBISH. Waste of time & money. Nobody buy any of them, please.....

I have never heard any Malaylam music so cannot comment, but I too find that the musical score of Hindi Movies is rather enjoyable but very very poorly arranged and badly recorded. Many engineers have come home & have confessed that they too are helpless, it is the producer that wants the recording to be + 6db on the highs & other shit like that. Sad but true.

Bhagwan

Dear Bhagawan,

We have no point to start a dispute all I wanted to bring out is that the differences (audible) are there and the final call is of the person who is shelling out the money, some can live with it some cannot.

Regarding Malayalam movie sound tracksthey as good or bad as most other Indian productions

ani schrieb:

Regarding Malayalam movie sound tracksthey as good or bad as most other Indian productions ;)

extended treble in recording . but most of the old ones do not have bass content so do not sound boomy

Arjun, nice Avatar. Is it your own creation ?

yup

my new hobby.. now i cover sight and sound in hobbies

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Many engineers have come home & have confessed that they too are helpless, it is the producer that wants the recording to be + 6db on the highs & other shit like that. Sad but true. Bhagwan

Bhagwan, what is your view on digital equalisation (pre dac) to correct these rcording errors ? i am thinking Behringer or Tact .

cannot convince myself to equalise and add another box but should it not to some extent correct this.. and of course ahve a tube pre or pwr after it ?

But let's take a specific example - I have a NAD C320BEE Amp. Now suppose I want to upgrade & I have a limited budget (like most earthly audiophiles). How should I go about it?

hi sanjay,

this is probably getting right back to the beginning of the thread but anyway... do try out a valve amp. and since ur in delhi drop in at virens. i've heard his integre in bangalore and more importantly a couple of days back heard a monitor audio bronze b2 with a nad 320 and a cayin valve amp. first listened with the nad then switched to the cayin. there was more detail, sounded more musical. far far gentler on the ears too. bass slam will suffer as with all tubes probably, but if you want tuneful music you really cant go without trying a valve out. would be a crime. i started off wanting a nad 320 bee. not anymore

regards