"Speaker Placement " The Magical hands.

Speaker placement, level setting for multichannel, and room treatment is absolutely important, in fact in most of the cases cases spending effort to improve these has more ROI than an upgrade. Few tips are:

- Keep the front speakers toed in towards listener position
- For bookshelf front speakers, ensure tweeter height at approximately ear level
- Keep at least 6 ft gap between front/ surround speakers for a good soundstage
- Do not keep rear ported speakers close to the wall
- Bookshelf on a shelf is a bad idea, better invest on a speaker stand
- Place subwoofer near room corner
- For multichannel music, adjust level for centre/ surrounds properly wrt front speakers
- Increase soft furnishing, absorbant material on the wall etc. if the speaker sounds harsh
- Ensure timbre matching for multichannel set-up, avoid mixing orange and apples

- Debu

Deaf & Switch-it-on......

You 2 guys have a handle ( mastered ? ) this black art.

Do share... PLEASE !

Thanks

A number of people also recommend that in a HT set up placing the surrounds slightly higher than ear level at the listening position greatly improves the surround "feel".

Surround placement has got standards. Like the DTS or all of em but see how about the stereo placement..wohaaaaaaa only few guys knows that "Black Magic". well people its not the one that can be taught. Its all about getting things done only by such people. It takes the way long to understand. Example: I work for the best of Hollywood Studios and we are chosen so stringently and trained to perfection where common people cant feel the details in the image as we feel but few people who has got that right sense can find it. Like that even speaker placement can be done by the professionals who mastered that Magic and the difference is as much as 100%.

Speaker placement changes with different parameters like depending upon the position of the port either front or back or downfiring or sealed. So how can one explain how to place speakers. It will become a bible if one starts to explain.

The experts can give few tips but not complete explanation..its true everywhere in all the fields....

regards,
Sandeep

Sonic_Master schrieb:

I found people telling kevlar the bullet proof driver

Ive always wodered why one would want bullet prrof drivers..maybe becoz with the sound being irritating, you end up shooting the driver and it comes out unscathed ?

Sonic_Master wrote:

well people its not the one that can be taught. Its all about getting things done only by such people.

What are you upto Sonic ?????
If you think this is not something that one can learn from discussion then why did you start this thread ?

If it was just to reveal that you have come across some industry gurus who have mastered this black art..well even we know them and are happy that they are here in this forum. But then you shouldnt have written this in the first place:

what are the differnt techniques in speaker placements i know few but wanted to know more and experts please respond...

Else if you really had the intent for everyone to come and share their 2 Cents then please pay due respect to what others have to say or ask...

Agreed that it is not math where 2+2 always equals to 4 and that it cannot be 'taught' in black and white but what can be done is to let others know

What to look for while critically evaluating a setup
How the items typically found in an Indian room affect the sount (mirrors, picture frames, floor tiles, wardrobes, furnitures etc.)
What are the common tweaks one can make in order to improve the sound
How the participating equipment affect the sound of a speaker

...get the general drift?...teach english, let them write their own poetry...


my $0.02

Most of us have rectangular rooms and invariably end up keeping the speakers firing down the length of the room. Does anyone keep his speakers across the breadth of the room. I tried it once, it sounded different, but the speakers got too close for comfort and I went back to the old arrangement.
Purnendu

I have my speakers firing across the breadth of the room. It gives me a wide, wide soundstage! My room doesn't permit me me to place them so that they can fire sown the room length.

Dear Sonic and Amp_Nut, firstly thank you very much.Since Sonic won't say the name of the speaker I will.It was the Cerwin Vega CLSC-15.No retailer I know of, can fulfill what Shahrukh asks for, as they are all traders.It does not come from the heart for them.They will not stand at a local train station and hear a blind man sing his heart out, like I will, even if he is not a great singer, I want to hear his sorrow and his story through his song and his flute.When you listen to live (no mics), with your soul along with your ears, then loudspeaker placement is natural, as recall ability to live music, not only sonically but emotionally guide you instinctively.
Regards Deaf.

deaf schrieb:

hear a blind man sing his heart out, like I will, even if he is not a great singer, I want to hear his sorrow and his story through his song and his flute.When you listen to live (no mics), with your soul along with your ears, then loudspeaker placement is natural, as recall ability to live music, not only sonically but emotionally guide you instinctively.

So well put and how true ... it is so important that the soul of the music be communicated..and that is from what i understoo, that elusive/evasive quality called Musicality which so few music(al) components have

I think I would rather prefer a not so great singer sing his music with all heart than the most silky voiced singer sing it as a routine. to me these are usually the recordings which stand out over the XRCDs

BTW anyone who has heard the song "tadap Tadap ke.." from hum dil de chuke sanam..i feel the emotuin in that so well..all the more so from a well setup system

Yes Deaf u are absolutely right. I will tell you a practical situation....

a Robot can also see a pic. May be some of the advanced technology can find it there is some thing in that picture which it can hardly can identify.

Lets consider there is a beautiful girl in the picture.

A person who really loved to a girl can feel the beauty in the picture. But not the robot. The robot can just see the pic but not feel it.

In the same way when you speak about music you speak about how you feel it not how you hear it. You wanna be a human or a robot?

Finally its all about feeling to music not listening to system.

warm regards,
sandy

"Black art" does not mean anything to me, what I understand is:

- Thumb rule art: A set of thumb rules to be followed, definitely smaller than a bible
- Trial and error art: Based on thumb rules/ common sense keep doing trial and error experiments till you get good results
- Simulation art: Based on computer simulation, the most complex of all, can give best results if done well. I have seen some tools in CARA, can someone provide links to some other tools for room acoustics.

- Debu

Sonic_Master schrieb:

Yes Deaf u are absolutely right. I will tell you a practical situation.... a Robot can also see a pic. May be some of the advanced technology can find it there is some thing in that picture which it can hardly can identify. Lets consider there is a beautiful girl in the picture. A person who really loved to a girl can feel the beauty in the picture. But not the robot. The robot can just see the pic but not feel it. In the same way when you speak about music you speak about how you feel it not how you hear it. You wanna be a human or a robot? Finally its all about feeling to music not listening to system. warm regards, sandy

You love the girl in the picture and the picture in the girl, and then you marry her, have kids and then suddenly you wake one morning to the irritating banging of dishes in the kitchen. You also realize that the eyes that you once found mesmerizing are mostly frowning at you. The girl in the picture is no longer beautiful to you.

On the other hand Robot found the girl in the picture just OK 5 years ago, just OK 2 years ago and just OK today morning.

I think Robot is more sensible. Arj, won't you agree with me ?

Dear Sonic-Master !

BTW is this Robot male or female ? I'd like to see her picture if it's a female.

Never know ...

In reply to Debu's comment with regards to the computer simulation giving best results, I would like to say that it is applicable only if one is aware of the entire size and material composition of the room.Which means this approach is taken when the whole room is being done from scratch.Very rare in our country to find such a scenario.As for the thumb rule arts, there is only so far as you can go, that is average hifi to good audiophile results.Emotional magic, well it requires passion for music, not a trader's passion for money with which he hires some marketing and installon guys. You are in for average hifi at the hands of such gents.
Deaf.

SDhawan schrieb:

I think Robot is more sensible. Arj, won't you agree with me ? :prost

a very very moot point and something very similiar to the objectivist ans subjectivist arguement and no way can this logic be refuted..

Think Ill chicken out of this one the safe way by saying If love could be measured then the Robot would be measured as being more in love .

But again if the Picture were to be torn and the lady banging the vessels be seriously ill, i think the anguish felt for the former might be miniscule compared to the one felt for the latter

so things are a bit tougher..

But getting back to music, some people like to feel the music and some like to hear it. Nothing wrong with either as long as it brings satisfaction to the listener.

Lets consider there is a beautiful girl in the picture. A person who really loved to a girl can feel the beauty in the picture. But not the robot. The robot can just see the pic but not feel it. In the same way when you speak about music you speak about how you feel it not how you hear it. You wanna be a human or a robot? Finally its all about feeling to music not listening to system.

Every time we get into this silly arguements of forcing our own thoughts on others and forgetting that each person IS different and what he wants from Hifi IS different. if one person wants to be emotionally involved the other wants to be practically involved and the other only scientifically.

And personally,neither of these people are wrong or doing it the wrong way.

Also another Disclaimer - I have not used the word Audiophile in any of the above as that entier topic has been covered in a couple of threads in the past

Every time we get into this silly arguements of forcing our own thoughts on others

That is something I really hate...

Arj schrieb:

...some people like to feel the music and some like to hear it.

I believe that if the you like the way you're hearing your music, you'll feel it!

Shahrukh schrieb:

I believe that if the you like the way you're hearing your music, you'll feel it!

I think its the other way round

Wow, now we are all great audio gurus.
Deaf.

lol...
See Deaf we were right. This is how each and every thread is discussed. -infinity to + infinity including zero , null ,complex numbers blah blah blah......no certain conclusions...and so...

regards,
Sandy

Sonic_Master wrote:

This is how each and every thread is discussed. -infinity to + infinity including zero , null ,complex numbers blah blah blah......no certain conclusions...and so...

Thanks for summarising the thread sonic...

See Deaf we were right. This is how each and every thread is discussed. -infinity to + infinity including zero , null ,complex numbers blah blah blah......no certain conclusions...and so...

aing? You derailed the thread yourself In your 1st post, you asked for everyone's inputs on speaker placement; but in your 2nd post you say that this is a black art, which cannot be easily taught or explained. Then how do you expect you get any suggestions?

And then for the final twist in the plot, you introduced the robot. I'm still trying to figure that one out

Its really sad to see so many arguments regarding speaker placements. IMHO, lets just sit back and enjoy the music.
In the end this is what matters most to a lot of us.

From the perspective of someone fairly new to this board/forum...this thread is depressing.

Early on one would have thought this would be a great sharing & learning thread. Then posts started being philosophical and argumentative. Its fine to wax philosophical and be argumentative so long as it’s contributing to the learning/sharing ideals (hope I’m right) of this forum.

hi paj4x4,

if you want some 'wisdom' on speaker placement here's my first hand learning.

1. make sure the area on the outer sides of your speakers are as symetrical as possible. ie. a wall on left shouldn't have an open space on right.
2. put your chair in the middle of speakers in equilateral triangle position.
3. start by placing the speakers far out then move them inwards. do this lateral movement till you find a spot where the sound is 'tight' and looseness disappears.
4. angle the speakers towards your ears. both speakers dont have to be at the same angle. one can be a little more angled than the other. not drastically different but small angles.
5. move the entire triangle of the speakers and your chair towards the front wall and away till you find the right balance.
6. put some diffusion on the front wall. thats minimum. if you dont want treat the side and back walls no prob if your room is big enough and not too small. make sure there are no chairs behind and to your right. unless there's a chair behind and to your left also. ie no blockages on only one side.
7. some carpet the floor between you and the speakers
8. ear height at tweeter level

for example, the best placement for my speakers are arms length toed in a good deal. placed about two handspans from the cabinet at the rear. if i place the speakers wider apart things sound a little more 'loose' to me. some others might prefer it though the right speaker is angled in a little more than the left.

when it sounds 'right' to you that's when you need to stop, and mark the spot before experimenting further so you can always come back to it.

i guess thats about it and oh yes, an essential ingredient in this process if a tot of chilled bailleys. or your favorite pick me up

4. angle the speakers towards your ears. both speakers dont have to be at the same angle. one can be a little more angled than the other. not drastically different but small angles.

I suppose toeing in or not and if yes then how much...all this depends a lot on the speaker in the first place.
Next it also depends on the taste of the listener...sometimes a lot of toeing in doesnt allow the speakers to dissappear (an important phenomenon in hifi). I prefer just about 5-8 degrees of toe-in...but thats me. But one needs to investigate his own taste IMO, there is no thumb rule here.

start by placing the speakers far out then move them inwards. do this lateral movement till you find a spot where the sound is 'tight' and looseness disappears.

1. In this case, I go by pure imaging. As soon as I arrive at dead centre holographic image...I stop!!

2. Most speakers image well only when they are placed at a suitable distance from each other (I assume that the listener is at the centre)....one needs to find out that suitable distance by experimenting. Somehow 7-8 feet fits many of the speakers as far as I have noticed.

3. The equilateral triangle concept works well but not hard and fast IMO. You can violate this rule by around 20% but still enjoy tight imaging. But to get the image in the first place you need to satisfy (2). Let me give an illustration. Suppose you have placed the speakers 7ft apart. Acoording to the golden triangle concept the listener should be at 7ft from each of the speaker thus forming a equilateral triangle. In my experience you can violate this rule upto 20%, by which I mean, even if the listener is at 8.5ft from the speakers he would still enjoy tight image....beyond this the image could loosen up a bit. But there is a catch...if you choose to move the listener towards the speaker then you have to be careful. The 20% violation may not work out here. You could end up being too close and loose the image.
So your ideal playground would be 7-9 ft from the speakers if the speakers are placed between 7-7.5 ft from each other.

paj4x4 schrieb:

From the perspective of someone fairly new to this board/forum...this thread is depressing. Early on one would have thought this would be a great sharing & learning thread. Then posts started being philosophical and argumentative. Its fine to wax philosophical and be argumentative so long as it’s contributing to the learning/sharing ideals (hope I’m right) of this forum.

Get ready for more depression then !!! thats the way we are in this forum and in bettween these "depressions" we do get in some learnings as well!( and if you go to any other forum you will not find them any diferent:)

As a starter some nice links here (you can google out more). suggest you go thru these and then get back in case of any queries

http://www.cardas.co...agestring=Room+Setup
http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/index_e.html
http://www.modernhometheater.com/howto/bobhodas0503/index.html


finally this
http://www.soundstage.com/audiohell/audiohell200111.htm

now you are set.

nice links arj. one confusing thing though. it mentions that for better bass response pull the speakers out into the room. conventional wisdom says speakers close to wall for greater bass.

incidentally i found the former better for me in improving the bass. became tighter and more defined.

Stevieboy, abhi.pani, and Arj,

Thanks for the tips and the helpful links. Appreciate the assistance. I’ll try the recommendations out on Sunday. I’m flying to Delhi today for business and on the side I’ll go and visit Viren’s shop for my first experience with tubes and hi-fi made in India audio gear.

As a background I have two HT set ups at home:

1. Living Room (length 4.5m, width 3.5m, ceiling height 2.8m)
Samsung 42” Plasma
Samsung DVD HD860 (came free with the TV )
Onkyo TX-SR 604
Sony PS 2
Tata Sky STB
Fronts – Wharfedale 9.5’s
Center – Wharfedale 9CS
Surround – Wharfedale 9.1’s
Sub – Wharfedale SW 150

2. Den (Length 3.3m, Width 3.3m, Height 2.1m)- Really a square room
Videocon Integra 32” LCD
Philips DVD
Marantz SR 4600
Nintendo Game Cube
Tata Sky STB
Front and Surrounds – Athena S.5’s
Center – Athena C.5
Sub – Athena AS-P4000
* Pair of Mordaunt-Short Avant 904’s for stereo listening

The den is our dedicated HT room so I have the blessing of my wife to practically do whatever is required to get the best possible audio & video delivery.

In both set ups the primary listening position is bang in the middle. There is a carpet between the gear and the primary listening position in both rooms. The wharf 9.5’s and MS 904’s are toed in slightly. The pair of Athena S.5’s in the den are not toed in since they are currently placed on the AV rack beside the SR4600.

The surrounds are on proper speaker stands – wharfedale stands for the 9.1’s in the living room and a pair of taller surround stands I purchased abroad for the S.5’s in the den.

There is a painting on the wall right behind the listening position in the living room. The wall on the den is currently empty - I plan to have a bookshelf made to act as a diffuser here later on.

I’ll post pics when I get back so you guys can visualize and hopefully give further recommendations.

Thanks once again.

CR

stevieboy schrieb:

nice links arj. one confusing thing though. it mentions that for better bass response pull the speakers out into the room. conventional wisdom says speakers close to wall for greater bass. incidentally i found the former better for me in improving the bass. became tighter and more defined.

there is a difference between "better bass" and "more bass"

Typically, as a thumbrule, wall boosts the bass by around 3db (The frequencies which get a boost can also be calculated..but i am pretty illiterate on that)

hence corners give almost a 6dbboost..but they may only make the sound more "boomy". so if i had a bookshelf which only went down to 70hz..i will place it in a corner (assuming no back port) to boost the harmonics which are in the lower bass region.