'Perfect' Recording(s) For Bass Reproduction ?

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Autor
Beitrag
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#1 erstellt: 20. Aug 2010, 20:16
Hi,

I am looking for suggestions / pointers to "Perfect" recordings for evaluating Bass reproduction.

The aim is to optimise the bass in my system & room

I am Open to all suggestions, and pointers, though I dont have any Classical music in my collection....

Do point out the specific track number on the CD, and maybe even a specific time on the track, and what to listen for.

Thanks !
Manek
Inventar
#2 erstellt: 21. Aug 2010, 05:48
Ampnut,

You already have the manger cd, so the 9 and 15 track is one great tool(as u may already know).

Mahler sym no 2 first movement

Bach, tocata and fugue on organ(simon preston).

These will test your system like no other I know off.

I have never hear the broadwalk hall organ(supposed to be the largest) but any recording with that organ ought to be awesome, doubt if any system could reproduce that scale especially the bass.
If you find a recording do let me know.

Regards,


[Beitrag von Manek am 21. Aug 2010, 06:42 bearbeitet]
abhi.pani
Inventar
#3 erstellt: 21. Aug 2010, 14:35

The aim is to optimise the bass in my system & room


If I understand correctly you do not want to "evaluate" the speaker's bass capabilities but would rather want to hear tracks which will bring out the issues that the current speaker-room interaction has and obviously work towards rectifying them ?

Some simple tracks:
Fleetwood Mac
Album : Rumours
Track 2: Dreams

The opening sequence has Kick Drum and Bass Guitar playing together. This can sound pretty thick and rounded in a room where bass is a issue. Ideally it should sound very linear and tight with a clear texture throughout the note.

Dire Straits
Album: Dire Straits
Track 4: Six Blade Knife

Very similar to the above mentioned description. Opening sequence has a Kick Drum along with some String Bass playing together in a rather soft manner. Again this note can very easily sound soft, rounded and mushy. Ideally it should be tight with a very clear and a sharp trailing edge/decay.

Dire Straits
Album :On Every Street
Track 4: Fade to Black

This is the test for boom. This song can easily boom along with a overhang. You would notice that even though the boom comes from a different instrument and the overhang from a kick drum, the tighter you get the kick drum to sound the boom from the other instrument also gets corrected by equal measure.

These albums are all very popular and easily available so I guess you can test them right away .


[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 21. Aug 2010, 14:38 bearbeitet]
bhagwan69
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 21. Aug 2010, 15:16

abhi.pani schrieb:

The aim is to optimise the bass in my system & room


If I understand correctly you do not want to "evaluate" the speaker's bass capabilities but would rather want to hear tracks which will bring out the issues that the current speaker-room interaction has and obviously work towards rectifying them ?

Some simple tracks:
Fleetwood Mac
Album : Rumours
Track 2: Dreams

The opening sequence has Kick Drum and Bass Guitar playing together. This can sound pretty thick and rounded in a room where bass is a issue. Ideally it should sound very linear and tight with a clear texture throughout the note.

Dire Straits
Album: Dire Straits
Track 4: Six Blade Knife

Very similar to the above mentioned description. Opening sequence has a Kick Drum along with some String Bass playing together in a rather soft manner. Again this note can very easily sound soft, rounded and mushy. Ideally it should be tight with a very clear and a sharp trailing edge/decay.

Dire Straits
Album :On Every Street
Track 4: Fade to Black

This is the test for boom. This song can easily boom along with a overhang. You would notice that even though the boom comes from a different instrument and the overhang from a kick drum, the tighter you get the kick drum to sound the boom from the other instrument also gets corrected by equal measure.

These albums are all very popular and easily available so I guess you can test them right away .



excellent


perfect

I just want to add to Manek's suggestion;
Manger Test Disc - Gazzali - double bass.
I think it is a good track for bass alignment.
Articulate & appropriate.

Abhi Pani - I am impressed.
Way to go..
Well done !
abhi.pani
Inventar
#5 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 03:05
I am honored Bhagwan!

You have seen my place, it is a bass nightmare (being almost perfect square in shape) so day in and day out I fight this enemy .
bhagwan69
Inventar
#6 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 04:00

abhi.pani schrieb:
You have seen my place, it is a bass nightmare (being almost perfect square in shape) so day in and day out I fight this enemy .


Small suggestion;
Think out of the box...
There is always a solution...
Do not do what is 'known' to you..
Play / Experiment.
Every room has a 'node' [find it]
Place your speaker there & your issue will get sorted.

p.s. My Speakers are less that 1 inch from their rear wall & the sound stage is 10 ++ feet deep [I wanted to type 15, but was not sure if it would be 'laughed' @] from behind the speaker & the speaker rear ported & the port 'fires' into the 'rear' wall @ under 2 inches....
Now is a square room bad or this ? You decide....

Yet, we find ways to work around...
God helps those who try !!
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#7 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 07:17
Hi Guys,

Thanks a TON for your advice, Much Appreciated. Sorry for my tardy response.

Manek Said:


Ampnut,

You already have the manger cd, so the 9 and 15 track is one great tool(as u may already know).

Mahler sym no 2 first movement

Bach, tocata and fugue on organ(simon preston).

These will test your system like no other I know off.


Regards,


Manek, I agree that the Manger CD is a Cracker of a CD.

On reading your post, I dusted it and played the tracks that you recommended.

Track 15 is certainly one of my all time favs, for not only superb and high impact bass, but also for giving the Amplification a Heavy work out ... especially the last 1 minute of the track. Fortunately, my Amps are upto the tack, even at 'realistic' levels.

While track 9 ( Ghazali) is good, I think there are other more telling tracks ( Not to mention Grandma's Hands )

Ofcourse, there is a fair amount of Classical music on the Manger CD... a genre I dont particularly listen to ...

Manek also said:

I have never hear the broadwalk hall organ(supposed to be the largest) but any recording with that organ ought to be awesome, doubt if any system could reproduce that scale especially the bass.
If you find a recording do let me know.


Thanks, but what i am looking for are Specific Recordings. There are Tons of recordings & instrumernts with Tons of deep bass. Many of these have poorly recorded bloated bass.

I am looking of audiophile opinions of SPECIFIC recordings that they can vouch for as being well recorded, and which plays well in their system, but quickly shows up deficiencies in other lesser systems...


A simple Go No-go test would be the "Grandma's hands' song which has a Very Deep LF beat, which is inaudible on systems that dont drill down to the deepest bass depths...

However, Garndma's hands will point to the presence of low, low bass, but will not reveal much as to the quality of that bass. I am only elaborating on this track, to explain the different aspects of bass that I want to probe...

Thanks again.


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 22. Aug 2010, 07:22 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 07:31
abhi.pani said:


If I understand correctly you do not want to "evaluate" the speaker's bass capabilities but would rather want to hear tracks which will bring out the issues that the current speaker-room interaction has and obviously work towards rectifying them ?


Yes AP, you are are correct, and your pointers are valuable & MOST welcome.

I will certainly listen to all the tracks that you have recommended and post my thoughts / experience.

Its great to see that you have choosen relatively popular, 'Non Audiophile' recordings.

I remember that the VTL owner also recommends Dire Straits to listen to....


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 22. Aug 2010, 07:45 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#9 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 07:45
bhagwan69 said:


Small suggestion;
Think out of the box...
There is always a solution...
Do not do what is 'known' to you..
Play / Experiment.
Every room has a 'node' [find it]
Place your speaker there & your issue will get sorted.


I TOTALLY agree with your comments and suggestions. What you have done with yr speaker placement is nothing short of miraculous, going by conventional wisdom.

My experience has been that when dealing with a system that goes WAY Down low, find a single "Magic Point" is 'difficult'.

I suspect that deep bass provokes multiple nodes, and the overall nature is Far more complex for DEEEEP bass than it is for bass upto 40 Hz.

I am still exploring speaker locations.

However, I think, I have had GOOD sucess using your advice "Do not do what is 'known' to you.."

As you know, bhagwan69, my speakers have their LF units electrically isolated, permitting much flexibility in reducing bass level with external resistors. However, after a lot of experimentation with external bass attenuation (which you have patiently sat thru at my place) I have abandoned that approach, since it "Threw out the Baby With the Bath water"... It reduced the bass resonance, but killed the bass too. I was not happy castrating my speakers.

I have tried something unusual, which I think has worked Very well in my room. Do drop in at your convenience, and tell me what you think of the sound. Will reveal what i have done, Only after I hear yr opnion , because what I have done is quite radical, and text book wise, should not sound good !

Bhagwan & other forum members, do suggest some listening tracks / pointers.

Switch-It-on & Arj and ALL Others, would value yr suggestions too.

Thanks
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#10 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 08:05
abhi.pani said:


Some simple tracks:
Fleetwood Mac
Album : Rumours
Track 2: Dreams

The opening sequence has Kick Drum and Bass Guitar playing together. This can sound pretty thick and rounded in a room where bass is a issue. Ideally it should sound very linear and tight with a clear texture throughout the note.


This album has often been recommended listening. Unfortunately ( ? ) There are Many, Many pressings of this, each with a Radically different sound.

Several years ago, deaf had recommended this to me, for the GERMAN pressing ONLY, which I luckily have.

This pressing emphasizes on the overall musicality and musical whole, without spot lighting any particular aspect. On my system, the bass in this recording is good, but 'lacks' Audiophile Slam and P.R.a.T. (pace, rhythm, and timing)

There is a bit of thickening, as you point out.

On the other hand, i also have the RADICALLY different SHM-CD, that I think is re-mastered by Steve Hoffman. Its an 'Audiophile' version, with a HUGE amount of P.R.a.T.

On this recording, there is Zero thickening....

I guess that this highlights the importance of pressings, when using music for evaluation ....

On thias topic, I must add, that probably the best reproduction of RUMOURS that i have heard was at Switch-It-On's place, playing an LP...
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#11 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 08:42
abhi.pani said:



Dire Straits
Album :On Every Street
Track 4: Fade to Black

This is the test for boom. This song can easily boom along with a overhang. You would notice that even though the boom comes from a different instrument and the overhang from a kick drum, the tighter you get the kick drum to sound the boom from the other instrument also gets corrected by equal measure.


Yes, AP. I like this as a test track... the Looooong sustained LF can excite room resonances that high impact, short lived bass just wont show up.

Fortunately, it plays nicely at my listening position, but not quite so nicely at some other locations, near the room corners !

Thanks, ... these are JUST the kind of pointers I am looking for an appreciate.
Manek
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 10:02
Ampnut,

Hi....actually after I wrote my recommendations I stopped short of telling you why each of them becuase I remembered you didn't care much for classical and jazz music.

Now, the track 9 is an important one, it has the player playing the bass mostly across its frequency range, great to tune your system and room for jazz trio's and quartets etc.


Mahler sym no 2 london phil, klaus tenstedt. I recommended this cause the first movement has the double bass section and and cello's playing their lowest registers,
imagine a dozen or more basses and cellos bowing their strings on the low registers !
What you look for is bass weight, resolution(the grinding of the bows on the strings), texture and the concert hall resonance(for want of a better description). Most sytems make this recording sound aneamic which it is not.
I have always enjoyed this track on sealed boxed speakers with 10-12" woofers, deep and full bodied. lp of this recording really took you to that event.
The cd is decent as well. Its an analogue recording.

The toccata and fugue(simon preston, hull city organ or bristol organ) has sustained low bass notes of the organ. It will definately excite your room or parts of it :-).
Its a piece that can take the woofers to their excursion limit and drive em to distortion at slightly louder than normal levels. If you thought track 15 gave your system a workout then this would sure be a level higher.
Don't know if cd's of these are avialable. Had heard them on lp's(from british council, bless them all) and had recorded on tape, sadly the tapes don't play now.

For bass timing/speed there is one track I put my faith in "beyond the sea" by robbie williams on the album swing when you're winning. Its swing music.
Regards

Manek


[Beitrag von Manek am 22. Aug 2010, 11:54 bearbeitet]
square_wave
Inventar
#13 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 12:50
Chico freeman – Album-Spirit sensitive

http://www.amazon.co...reeman/dp/B0000020WL

The first track.

The standing bass goes progressively down in the beginning of the song. If the bass response is not right, you will start hearing a thickness in the bass making the instrument sounding fake and fat as you go down the octaves,


[Beitrag von square_wave am 22. Aug 2010, 12:51 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#14 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 14:25
Hi Manek & SW.

THANKS ! These are Precisely the kind of imputs that I am looking for...

Will see if I can download / get my hand s on the stuff.

Manek
Inventar
#15 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 15:34
Ampnut.....sorry I forgot to add,

In the song "beyond the sea" the entire rhythm section of the big band plays as one, on a very simple yet strong driving rhythm.
Now here is the trick, if you hear the bass seperately from the others in the section, the timing is wrong.
Its one of those arrangements where the entire rhythm section should sound ans feel as one. There are other similar arrangements by swing master arrangers like basie, miller etc but the robbie williams album recording is good, done in the same studio as the likes of frank sinatra when he was singing for the capitol label.

Enjoy.....

Regards

Manek
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#16 erstellt: 22. Aug 2010, 16:07
Thanks for the insight
Arj
Inventar
#17 erstellt: 23. Aug 2010, 05:25
Hi AN,
My favourite Bass reponse checks are the below
1. Eric Clapton Unplugged
Track 3: there is a stamping of feet or Kick drum in the 20-25 hz range. need to be very clear. this is lower in the beginning and towards the middle to the track gets really high
Track 12: Malted Milk: awesome bass. the song sounds so different

This is an album i have grown to Love since my sub has set int !!

2.Eagles: hell freezes over
Track 6 ie Hotel California: when the Drums begin they sound deep and expansive with imaging in 3D. there is a texture to the drums..not just about SPL..although that is to die for too

3: Grandmas hands ;). have you to thank for that track

4. Any recent vocals by Leonard Cohen ( eg Dear heather) . his voice goes so low but not enough into Sub bass. but somehow every time i switch my sub on, the sound just improves so much more !! maybe some subharmonics coming into play.


[Beitrag von Arj am 23. Aug 2010, 05:29 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#18 erstellt: 23. Aug 2010, 07:57
Thanks, Arj. Will check out tonight.

Anyone heard Jennifer Warnes - The Hunter - Way Down Deep ?

Your thoughts ?
bhagwan69
Inventar
#19 erstellt: 23. Aug 2010, 09:22

Amp_Nut schrieb:
Thanks, Arj. Will check out tonight.

Anyone heard Jennifer Warnes - The Hunter - Way Down Deep ?

Your thoughts ?


Yes;

I find the bass to be 'too much' [un-natural] in my books...

I like all her music - famous blue raincoat too is a great album...
Ref level material for female vocal - imho..
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#20 erstellt: 23. Aug 2010, 10:09
Thanks, Bhagwan69.

I too find the bass excessive, but I was not sure if it was my system.

Your comments on the bass being excessive is music to my ears
Arj
Inventar
#21 erstellt: 23. Aug 2010, 11:31
Has anyone heard Raising Sand y Robert Plant and Alison Krauss ?

Find the bass excessive on that too...almost to the point of being unbearable.


[Beitrag von Arj am 23. Aug 2010, 11:38 bearbeitet]
ani
Stammgast
#22 erstellt: 24. Aug 2010, 06:17
Hi,

Led Zepplin's MobyDick from album Zepplin II, the pair of low tuned Floor toms and kick drums are good to see how resolving your system is in LF. I cannot distinguish the two floor toms on CD but on LP one can hear that they are tuned to differently.

As far as CD's are concerned I have noticed that the CD player plays a mjor role in LF reproduction. The variation is so large that you may be way of in your speaker's LF setup.
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