The perfect wave transport from PS Audio

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Autor
Beitrag
square_wave
Inventar
#1 erstellt: 31. Aug 2009, 12:15
http://www.youtube.com/v/UEtBMOa5NfQ&autoplay=1

Plays the music from the solidstate memory. Never plays it from the disc. No jitter or error correction required. Uses an asynchronous clock.
Impressive. No idea about the price
sivat
Stammgast
#2 erstellt: 31. Aug 2009, 13:39
hhmmmmmm

Excellent sales pitch..


[Beitrag von sivat am 31. Aug 2009, 13:39 bearbeitet]
reignofchaos
Stammgast
#3 erstellt: 31. Aug 2009, 15:39
Err doesn't every CD player worth its name have a reclocker and some form of buffering off solid state memory? Whats so special in this one then?

What about the data that is lost while reading the CD itself?

The only special thing about this player seems to be the fact that it has I2S output which very few transports do.
Arj
Inventar
#4 erstellt: 31. Aug 2009, 16:10
I think it uses an HDMI cable for I2S...and it is a special non standard HDMI so you needd to have PS audios transport, cable and DAC for I2s. thank god the power cables are standard IEC

this is different in the sense that it "rips" from the disc and puts the entire song into a SS memory and then plays it..
sivat
Stammgast
#5 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 03:22
I2S is a signal that cannot be transmitted beyond a few inches. If you need to (transmit I2S over a few feet)... then use the SPDIF. Else you need your properiraty arrangement to do the same...like Zanden and now PS audio. Honestly, i do not see this to be of any significant advantage.

A lot of these theory of buffering in memory etc., does not really help with PCM because of the nature of the format itself. Hence, It is not correct to assume..what is good for formats like "WAV" will be good for PCM as well. PCM is a very different format. Do read on the net....you will get some idea.

Once you have a good idea of PCM and also about how I2S/SPDIF actually works....listen to this Video again.
sivat
Stammgast
#6 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 03:35
sivat
Stammgast
#7 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 03:37
A quick google returned this..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-code_modulation

From the above link, you can understand how the data on a red-book CD should be interpreted...there are no obvisous 1's and 0's like in computer audio-file formats like WAV, MP3, etc.,

Also, you could verify what i'm saying form the below link..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_(audio_CD_standard)
Arj
Inventar
#8 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 03:57
The above has been my understanding as well ie about the Redbook being in "Words" and not bits.. which need to be interpreted with utilisation of the Reed Solomon Error correction.

An interesting (and heated) discussion http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=digital&m=131391here
Arj
Inventar
#9 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 04:02

sivat schrieb:
I2S is a signal that cannot be transmitted beyond a few inches. If you need to (transmit I2S over a few feet)... then use the SPDIF. .

Siva any reason for this ?
ie is it a problem of the Format that is open to some sort of distortion or loss of synchronisation during longer tramnsmission ?
sivat
Stammgast
#10 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 06:04

Arj schrieb:
The above has been my understanding as well ie about the Redbook being in "Words" and not bits.. which need to be interpreted with utilisation of the Reed Solomon Error correction.

An interesting (and heated) discussion http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=digital&m=131391here


No Arj, it is not the content that matters. But how the content is retrieved. Unlike in a WAV file, where the 1's and 0's are guaranteed to be correct....the data from Redbook CD is retrieved through a sampling algorithm.

This is the part that is most error prone and requires excellent mechanial and electrical isolation for the CD transport to a good job. If you would have observed "time" is a factor in the sampling process...so the "memory storage" is really not of much help at all in reducing Jitter.

This is exactly the reason why companies like Esoteric, Philips, Sanyo have spent lots of money in developing good transport modules (VRDS, CD-PRO2, etc.,)

This is also the reason why filters came into existence. But nothing can compensate a good "transport module" to begin with....rest are all hypothesis and not actual facts.


[Beitrag von sivat am 01. Sep 2009, 06:10 bearbeitet]
sivat
Stammgast
#11 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 06:08

Arj schrieb:

sivat schrieb:
I2S is a signal that cannot be transmitted beyond a few inches. If you need to (transmit I2S over a few feet)... then use the SPDIF. .

Siva any reason for this ?
ie is it a problem of the Format that is open to some sort of distortion or loss of synchronisation during longer tramnsmission ?


If you need to transmit data over a cable through some distance it requires a proper design. You cannot just transmist any form of data over any length of cable.

So the problem is not really the 'content' of I2S format or the format itself, but the physical limitations that one needs to over-come for transmitting data over long lengths of cable.

This is also the reason why it is recommend to use transformers for driving long lengths of SPDIF cable.
square_wave
Inventar
#12 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 06:48

sivat schrieb:

Arj schrieb:
The above has been my understanding as well ie about the Redbook being in "Words" and not bits.. which need to be interpreted with utilisation of the Reed Solomon Error correction.

An interesting (and heated) discussion http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=digital&m=131391here


No Arj, it is not the content that matters. But how the content is retrieved. Unlike in a WAV file, where the 1's and 0's are guaranteed to be correct....the data from Redbook CD is retrieved through a sampling algorithm.

This is the part that is most error prone and requires excellent mechanial and electrical isolation for the CD transport to a good job. If you would have observed "time" is a factor in the sampling process...so the "memory storage" is really not of much help at all in reducing Jitter.

This is exactly the reason why companies like Esoteric, Philips, Sanyo have spent lots of money in developing good transport modules (VRDS, CD-PRO2, etc.,)

This is also the reason why filters came into existence. But nothing can compensate a good "transport module" to begin with....rest are all hypothesis and not actual facts.


So it all depends on the quality of the mechanical transport which reads the cd. Whether it is stored in memory and send via i2s or send directly via spdif to a DAC doesn't really matter.
The logic is that the error originates while the disc is being read initially. What happens after the disc is read is immaterial.


[Beitrag von square_wave am 01. Sep 2009, 06:54 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#13 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 08:29


So it all depends on the quality of the mechanical transport which reads the cd. Whether it is stored in memory and send via i2s or send directly via spdif to a DAC doesn't really matter.
The logic is that the error originates while the disc is being read initially. What happens after the disc is read is immaterial.


IMHO, everything else too DOES matter.

But if garbage is made of the data on the CD... its GIGO ( Garbage In Garbage Out )
Manek
Inventar
#14 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 09:31
Amnut

I am with you on this. Every stage matters, perhaps to different degrees but they all matter.

Manek
sivat
Stammgast
#15 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 10:02
Folks,

My discussion was limited to getting the 1's and 0's correct fromm a CD. What i referred to as "rest of ..." was the predictive algoritms that are employed in some of the filters...including oversampling, upsampling, etc., Everyone know the application of such predictive algoritm do not result in correct output at all scenarios.

Ofcouse, other stages are important. But the idea behind this discussion was to bring to light some important aspect of the PCB/Redbook format that is being taken for granted, with the advent of media servers.

The idea was to emphazie on the need for a good quality laser-picup and associated mech and electrical aspects. This should be the focus of a good transport....atleast in my opinon.

Peace

Regards
Siva.


[Beitrag von sivat am 01. Sep 2009, 11:29 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#16 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 10:46
HI Sivat,

I doff my cap to you, for highlighting what you have.

To me its also a pointer why some systems seem to provide better sound via HDD Lossless (wav. flac. ape etc ) than Off a CD !


[Beitrag von Amp_Nut am 01. Sep 2009, 11:27 bearbeitet]
Amp_Nut
Inventar
#17 erstellt: 01. Sep 2009, 12:18
Arj, I found your audioassylum thread very illuminating.

FWIW, I also liked the following side link from the AA thread:


"More Than Meets The Ear"http://www.digitalprosound.com/Features/2000/Sept/RecCD3.htm

Please do post more links on the topic...

Thanks
Arj
Inventar
#18 erstellt: 08. Sep 2009, 11:56
Another nice link but this talks about the evolution of the cd transports in phillips.. found it very interesting !

http://www.marantzphilips.nl/philips_cdm_cd_mechanism_list/


AN, the link you posted is really nice...even i could understand it all in 1 reading !
Arj
Inventar
#19 erstellt: 04. Okt 2009, 16:51
RMAF show report here.. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/rmaf_2009/

Interesting fact is a new $1300 firewire interface from Weiss
more info Here

my experience with Firewire (M-Audio FW Solo) shows that the Firewire card needs to be very very good. I used a PCMCIA cardbus and that sucks. apparently the via chip is a drag and the TI chip is what is good
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