Speaker Design & Building What Is It All About ?

yes....I remember someone at cadence mentioned it to me a couple of years ago but did not go into the merits and demerits of it at that time....but now is the right time and place to do so.....

care to enlighten me further ?

Manek.

Dear Manek'
Simply put, the kevlar-nomex-kevlar(knk)honey comb sandwich cone works best with straight sided cones,especially in the critical midrange area above 400Hz.The 8" device was the fist of the experimental line and started up with a curvilinear profile like paper cones of the day.Studies later showed that knk worked best with straight profile cones.The Swedish engineer who did this research on knk, as a college paper, reached his conclusion regarding cone profile and knk,and left.However, strangely Eton did not implement a straight profile cone in the 8" driver,hence suffering a coloured midrange as compared to the straight profiled cones.
BTW the original yellow knk was far superior to the current black ones.
Regards Deaf

yes, I do find the diva midrange a bit coloured compared to the Arita 7 inchers.

I've been told a lot about the yellow kevlar drivers which were used in the earlier cadence versions, the "ES" but then again the current ones are very good as well.

Manek.

17.10.2005.

Revised Cadence - 8" [I forget the model name] is being launched @ Times AV Revolution.

Well all can come & listen to it !!

Demo room - with TT & Valve Amps.

BHAGWAN 69

Looks like the ARCA - but 8" driver - ETON - modified & the port has moved back up from the bottom [thank GOD] !
Sounds much better now !

new cadence model ? Two candece speakers us te 8" driver, the Arista(port at te front bottom) and Diva(port somewhere near the middle of the baffle)....All their electrostats look alike though they vary in size....

Bhagwan which of the above do you mean ?

Manek.

deaf schrieb:

Dear Manek' Simply put, the kevlar-nomex-kevlar(knk)honey comb sandwich cone works best with straight sided cones,especially in the critical midrange area above 400Hz.The 8" device was the fist of the experimental line and started up with a curvilinear profile like paper cones of the day.Studies later showed that knk worked best with straight profile cones.The Swedish engineer who did this research on knk, as a college paper, reached his conclusion regarding cone profile and knk,and left.However, strangely Eton did not implement a straight profile cone in the 8" driver,hence suffering a coloured midrange as compared to the straight profiled cones. BTW the original yellow knk was far superior to the current black ones. Regards Deaf

Deaf,

That was good information.

I think regardless of the cone material (given the current choice of materials) involved, i think curvilinear profile is a wrong choice for an 8" driver. The profile would best suit the smaller drivers (3" or 4"), specification of which mandates an extended freq. response. Anyway, this is my opinion...not that of any proven research.

In my expereience, i have found there are very few Kevlar based drivers that are well designed. And generally, it results in a very tight sound that is not to the liking of many people, who prefer a more warmer sound that is typical of paper cones. But then again - does warm sound mean color ??

Cheers
Siva.

[quote="Manek"]new cadence model ? Two candece speakers us te 8" driver, the Arista(port at te front bottom) and Diva(port somewhere near the middle of the baffle)....All their electrostats look alike though they vary in size....

Bhagwan which of the above do you mean ?

Manek.[/quote]

I am not sure of the name - however the Diva is the Dynamic Driver based speaker with the Eton Woofer & Vifa Tweeter.

The Speaker I am talking about is the one that looks like the ARCA. Simmilar front baffle [real wood]
They have 2 versions to it; there is a 7" one & a 8" one.

THe 8" one has been changed.

The port for it was in the front and was 3" to 4" above the ground. Now in the 'new version' it has been 'pulled' up; i.e. it has gone 3" below the woofer [thank God !!!].

The new version sounds much better - at least I prefer it this way.

In any case - you will get your chance to see and hear it @ AV Revolution. They will be introducing it there - with analogue front end [SME] & Siltech Cables.

Regards,

BHAGWAN69

hi bhagwan,

Yes, its the Arista that has the 8incher and looks like the Arca.

Siltech should be very interesting. I'm sure they would have their Valva Va 1.0HP and the Canasya amps on display as well.

Great info...thanks :-)

Manek.

Hello Manek !

Then it must be the Arista [as you mentioned] !

The Siltec Distributor for India is Cadence - so they will come in with that.

However, I doubt that the Signature G-6 Cables will be employed here...........The cheaper [much cheaper varient]
option would be used.

The Amplifier is going to be the VA-1 [36 Watt - sad].
The older 20 watt option is a far better amplifier. I requested for that but Cadence declined to use it !!!!
They want to use the 'new' 36 watt 'more powerful' version instead.

The Canasya will not be brought.

The set up should be rather simple;

SME-10 + Benz Micro + VA-1 + Arista + Siltech

All said, should make for interesting listening.
Looking forward to it.

McIntosh has a new Distributor for India - Interesting....
Primare too has come back to India - lots of options around......

BHAGWAN69

Dont be too dissappointed Bhagwan...the va(36watter) is a fine amp....though the 20 watter class A was really very good. I have heard both side by side with the same partnering equipment. I really could not tell much of a diff between the 20 and the 36 in the first few watts but finally the class A 20 watter edged out the 36 watter.
I guess class A still rules ! They probably would need the 36 watter to drive the speakers effectively....

Manek.

Wanted to ask this question.....
For a newbie speakers builder, the crossover is always a bit of a strain :-)

One option is to use an active crossover and bi-amp/tri-amp as the case maybe. Active crossovers available in India are I would assume very few and far between and expensive too. I have only come across behringer,rane and dbx till date. They are pro sound/studio crossovers so work with balanced inputs/outputs and also work on higher voltages(was told by a rane exec). Havent found an affordable crossover in India which has unbalanced RCA's which works on home hifi line level specs.

So I thought a line level active car stereo crossover could be an option ? If so what are the options available in India and approx pricing ?

Manek.

Manek schrieb:

Wanted to ask this question..... For a newbie speakers builder, the crossover is always a bit of a strain :-) One option is to use an active crossover and bi-amp/tri-amp as the case maybe. Active crossovers available in India are I would assume very few and far between and expensive too. I have only come across behringer,rane and dbx till date. They are pro sound/studio crossovers so work with balanced inputs/outputs and also work on higher voltages(was told by a rane exec). Havent found an affordable crossover in India which has unbalanced RCA's which works on home hifi line level specs. So I thought a line level active car stereo crossover could be an option ? If so what are the options available in India and approx pricing ? Manek.

Well am using one that i built...

I got the PCB etched.
here's the link..
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_30278/article.html

btw, the Behringer DCX-2496 is supposed to be a very good product..
Rane is a bit expensive..so is dbx..
behringer would be my opition if i go for balanced xovers..
The thing is i spent 600 bucks on the xover, including the power supply(toroidsal tansformer from Miracle)..while the Behringer the cheapest of the xovers cost 250$ in the US. Actually they are not available in the US. THey have been out of stock for the past 4 months. So i think the xover in silicon chip is very decent and the quality is not bad at all.
Hope this helps..
Cheers,
Benkenobi

Manek, can you give an update on the horn speakers that you and ur uncle are building?

Benkenobi

Benks..we've finally managed to procure the fostex drivers from singapore....they have just arrived....My uncle was also ill in hospital for 3 weeks. Has just gotten home so I'll give him a breather and then proceed.....:-)

The folded horn cabs are the same ones which he used to use with his lowthers so we'll try and use the same first and tweak it a bit if need be.

Also on the block is an old(1963) harmon kardon citation valve pre/power combo on restore...I'm more kicked about that !

Manek.

Manek schrieb:

Wanted to ask this question..... For a newbie speakers builder, the crossover is always a bit of a strain :-) One option is to use an active crossover and bi-amp/tri-amp as the case maybe. Active crossovers available in India are I would assume very few and far between and expensive too. I have only come across behringer,rane and dbx till date. They are pro sound/studio crossovers so work with balanced inputs/outputs and also work on higher voltages(was told by a rane exec). Havent found an affordable crossover in India which has unbalanced RCA's which works on home hifi line level specs. So I thought a line level active car stereo crossover could be an option ? If so what are the options available in India and approx pricing ?

Manek,

Active crossover has its advantage .. i fully agree.

However, quality of an power amplifier is even more critical with respect to overall tonality of a setup. In my opinion i will choose one good power amp (to the limit my budget allows), rather than buying 2 or 3 power amp for the same price.

Personally, i will select the option of "one" power amp (the best that my budget would allow) and settle for a passive crossover.

Ofcourse i do dream of biamping my system with 2 plinius power amps and a good electronic crossover....but my wife would kill me if i make that move right now :-(

However, if you are just experimenting for the sake of science and thrills of DIY... its a different story.


Cheers
Siva.

One option is to use an active crossover and bi-amp/tri-amp as the case maybe. Active crossovers available in India are I would assume very few and far between and expensive too. I have only come across behringer,rane and dbx till date. They are pro sound/studio crossovers so work with balanced inputs/outputs and also work on higher voltages(was told by a rane exec). Havent found an affordable crossover in India which has unbalanced RCA's which works on home hifi line level specs.
However, quality of an power amplifier is even more critical with respect to overall tonality of a setup. In my opinion i will choose one good power amp (to the limit my budget allows), rather than buying 2 or 3 power amp for the same price.

Personally, i will select the option of "one" power amp (the best that my budget would allow) and settle for a passive crossover.

Ofcourse i do dream of biamping my system with 2 plinius power amps and a good electronic crossover....but my wife would kill me if i make that move right now :-(

Hi !

I am not so sure; I might beg to differ here. I am not a commercial member nor am I technically qualified to comment on this issue, however, I still feel that in a 'Active' set up [2 or 3 amplifiers] which uses electronic crossovers the amplifier 'sees' a very very specific load that it has to drive, i.e. either bass or mids or highs. It never gets the option of different 'load' structures or 'difficult impedences' or loads that are 'capacitive' in nature. Each amplifier gets a very very specifis 'instruction' from the electronic x-over and has to do just that. As opposed to a passive set up where 1 amplifier first goes into a passive x-over [where it literally gets 'raped' & 'molested'] and then is asked to drive different drivers that all want to behave differently & have a 'mind' of their own.

The other thing is about the Plinius Amplifiers. You suggested bi-amping your set up. This is very very differenct from making your speakers active. In a Bi-Amp set up there are 2 sets of amplifiers used, you could choose to bi-amp your set up in 2 different ways [verticle or horizontal]. In either case, the amplifier still sees a passive x-over.

However, if you remove the passice x-over from your speaker & take a pre out from your pre amplifier into your axtive x-over & then the active x-over's outs into your Plinius power amplifiers & then the speaker outs from the Power Amplifier [a] to the low frequency driver & the other Power Amplifier [b] to the high frequency drivers then you could manage to have better sound.

But in this case, the story is not as short & sweet as it sounds, you still need to mamage the x-over slopes [6 or 12 or 18 or 24] the spl's etc. There will also be a lot of issues that pertain to phase variation & time domain smeer etc.

All this is too complex for me.

I do not know much about design or x-overs or what ever.

I just like to listen to my music & try to derive maximum pleasure there from.

Happy Listening !!

BHAGWAN 69

Manek schrieb:

Also on the block is an old(1963) harmon kardon citation valve pre/power combo on restore...I'm more kicked about that !

Intresting. Please tell us more about it. Has it been with you for a long time?

Those Harman Kardon CItation amps are among the best in the world..shame that such amps are no longer made.

no the HK citation was not with me buut was lying with a family friend. I'm dont own it. My uncle does and we are restoring the same for his use not mine :-(...anyays its the thrill of using those amps :-)
KT88 power tubes..those amps weigh a ton....we opened them up sometime back for a look and we found the teflon wires still intact...had a few leaky caps.....some caps for the power supply have been sourced from singapore and work is on....will keep you guys updated on both the amps and the speakers.

Manek.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

The other thing is about the Plinius Amplifiers. You suggested bi-amping your set up. This is very very differenct from making your speakers active. In a Bi-Amp set up there are 2 sets of amplifiers used, you could choose to bi-amp your set up in 2 different ways [verticle or horizontal]. In either case, the amplifier still sees a passive x-over. However, if you remove the passice x-over from your speaker & take a pre out from your pre amplifier into your axtive x-over & then the active x-over's outs into your Plinius power amplifiers & then the speaker outs from the Power Amplifier [a] to the low frequency driver & the other Power Amplifier [b] to the high frequency drivers then you could manage to have better sound. BHAGWAN 69

Bhagwan,

We are talking the same thing. If you notice my post, i said "biamp" and "electronic crossover". Electronic crossover is almost the only way to avoid bumps/dents at crossover frequencies....and a whole lot of other technical problem that haunts a loudspeaker with passive crossover. Fully agree with the advantages of electronic crossover like you mention.

My preferences are mostly due to a budget constraint rather than technial perfection. For example, consider that my budget is 7 lakhs for a setup.

I have two options

Option 1
---------
1) PMC loudspeaker -> Rs. 2 lakhs
2) A good CD player -> Rs. 1 lakh
3) A good pre (say hovland) -> Rs.1.5 lakh
4) A good electronic crossover (say Bryston) -> Rs. 1 lakh
5) Two power amps -> Bryston 3BSST -> Rs.1.5 lakhs


Option 2
--------

1) PMC loudspeaker -> Rs. 2 lakhs
2) A good CD player -> Rs. 1 lakh
3) A good pre (say hovland) -> Rs.1.5 lakh
4) Power Amp -> "Gamut" or "Plinius SA 102" or an used Krell/Gryphon amp for 2.5 lakhs

Between Option 1 & 2, i would select option 2....all though "Option 1" is technically a superior solution !!

We are talking the samething, but i guess our opinion differs...

Cheers
Siva.

Hi !

I am most interested in the prices that you have quoted.

There is a lot of gear from there that I would live to consider @ the prices that you have mentioned.

A] Hovalnd Pre Amp @ Rs. 1.5 L
[The list on the HP-100 {cheapest} is @ US $'s 6,000/-]
There are 3 variants to this pre amplifier - basic / phono MM / phono MM + MC. The prices are between 6 K & 7.2 K.

B] Used Krell / Gryphon @ Rs. 2.5 lacs.
Krell I would not buy for 'free' I hate them.
But the Gryphon @ 2.5 lacs. This is mind blowing. If my memory serves me right the list on the Antilion Stereo Signature Power Amplifier fom Gryphon is @ 25 K US $'s. i.e. about Rs. 11/- Lacs. Even if it is used, I am not so sure if any one would let it go for 2.5 Lacs.

Not no mention, I am unaware of any person that may have the Gryphon's in India. If there is someone that does have it & want to sell, I would be most interested.
Please do try and help me in getting mu hands on one, I will really appreciate it.

About the Active X-Overs, I will write a bit later.
These prices are making my head spin. Let is come to a rest & I will respond back.

Thanks,

Best regards,

BHAGWAN69

P.S. Can you be so kind so as to suggest a 'good cd player' @ Rs. 100/- K. I am finding it very very hard to find one @ that price.

BTW I like the PMc's with the Brystons [4BSST's] - James Tanner has finally got his amps to sound 'better' than what they did a while back. However, their power ratings need to be discounted [by a mile].

sivat schrieb:

deaf schrieb: Dear Manek' Simply put, the kevlar-nomex-kevlar(knk)honey comb sandwich cone works best with straight sided cones,especially in the critical midrange area above 400Hz.The 8" device was the fist of the experimental line and started up with a curvilinear profile like paper cones of the day.Studies later showed that knk worked best with straight profile cones.The Swedish engineer who did this research on knk, as a college paper, reached his conclusion regarding cone profile and knk,and left.However, strangely Eton did not implement a straight profile cone in the 8" driver,hence suffering a coloured midrange as compared to the straight profiled cones. BTW the original yellow knk was far superior to the current black ones. Regards Deaf Deaf, That was good information. I think regardless of the cone material (given the current choice of materials) involved, i think curvilinear profile is a wrong choice for an 8" driver. The profile would best suit the smaller drivers (3" or 4"), specification of which mandates an extended freq. response. Anyway, this is my opinion...not that of any proven research. In my expereience, i have found there are very few Kevlar based drivers that are well designed. And generally, it results in a very tight sound that is not to the liking of many people, who prefer a more warmer sound that is typical of paper cones. But then again - does warm sound mean color ?? Cheers Siva.

Dear Siva
Kevlar Nomex Kevlar and all sandwich drivers sound best with a straight profile.Single material cones with the exception of airdried paper cones, have to have a curved profile to deal with distortions due to doppler shift,especially as the driver is used beyond 500Hz.
Regarding paper vs whatever else, the only issue is consistency of pulp,year after year,which artificial materials have lesser problems dealing in consistency issuses.
Colorations,hell every speaker is coloured,flavoured or whatever word you choose to use.It only depends what colourations you can live with and which ones you cannot live with.Whatever the technology, in the end communication is all that matters.In the odd situation I may even end up enjoying a boombox, that may by some freak of acoustics is just accidently placed in a room and ends up actually playing music and not hifi .I know this last statement will get me a lot of critisism from some forum members,but please do not argue on this point, as I am not nice when hifi is put ahead of the music.
Regards Deaf

Dear Members
With regards to active x-overs,one really needs a knowledgeable
installation person.The Behringer and digital x-overs of the type work best when they have to do the least amount of work.Hence your loudspeaker design has to be extremely well thought of in the electro-acoustical domain,right from the start.
I would like to ask, what according to you chaps is the best possible combination in the active(electronic or digital) domain,that you would go about making for yourself.
This is going to be interesting Ben, so stay tuned.
Regards Deaf