power cords

wow this is weird..i took my amplifier out of my power conditioner and instant reduction in some sibilance i was hearing..


edit: hmm the bass seems to have lost some weight to it as well.

Viva finolex !

Been using them for years ! Finolex is a sweet sweet low cost high impact option

Manek

Folks..are these braided Finolex Cables ?

Sivat, Glad you found a no-compromise solution with a change in Power Cords. Must try Finolex... an almost (relatively ) Zero Cost option.

Can you let us know the Finolex construction of the 4 sq mm ( ie Multi Strand with 36 SWG or 3 or so strands of thick wire ? ) Thanks !




While I do remain a firm believer in the effect of Power Cords, Speaker Cables and interconnects, I have often found a super solution in simply repositioning the speakers, with the general 2 broad guide lines:

1. Overall speaker location in the room affects the Bass reproduction the most, so get the location right in terms of Bass impact and resolution.

2. Toe in: Point more towards the ears for a 'hotter' treble. Play around with toe-in (dont be inhibited to have almost Zero Toe in) for the best setting between the Treble and sound stage..

Ofcourse, drivers bring their own sound to the room, and you are By Far, the best informed to change yr drivers or tweak the cross-over... options most of us dont have.

Amp_Nut, use the regular house wiring Finolex cable with 4 Sq.mm thickness (not sure of guage).

Using thicker guage strands (on individual wire) will not be good power cord....neither would shield...atleast in my experience.


Arj,

It is a braided design...simple braid ..just like ladies do.

Try the Finolex...it would be a worth while experience.

I will be most intrested to know the Finolex impact in other systems.

Regards
Siva.

Amp_Nut,

As part of my R&D for the last couple of months, i did try various speaker positioing. It did help in a big way. The XY Cordinate of the speaker position relative to the overall room dimension is very important for the lows. The relative position of the tweeters to the "sweet spot" is important for highs...it has to be optimized. Thanks to the placement, the image has improved.

However, the impact of the power cords were very different...it is very difficult to explain in writing, given my poor command over language ;). In general, the Music sounded "sterile" with the mentioned power cords and sounded "organic" with finolex ...without any loss of detail or any other degradation.

Through this process, i did discover a lot of other weakness in my system..which were fixed..as well.

Regards
Siva.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

wow this is weird..i took my amplifier out of my power conditioner and instant reduction in some sibilance i was hearing.. edit: hmm the bass seems to have lost some weight to it as well.

There are many ways to look at this issue. However, i can tell you that it is not that lows in your amp has degraded...just the overall freq. response has changed...which is further affected by room response. Complex but true...

This cannot be looked upon as a simple issue between the conditioner and amp.

sivat schrieb:

Savyasaachi schrieb: wow this is weird..i took my amplifier out of my power conditioner and instant reduction in some sibilance i was hearing.. edit: hmm the bass seems to have lost some weight to it as well. There are many ways to look at this issue. However, i can tell you that it is not that lows in your amp has degraded...just the overall freq. response has changed...which is further affected by room response. Complex but true... This cannot be looked upon as a simple issue between the conditioner and amp.

Hmmm..this is entirely new area for me so more than willing to absorb any info and advice you guys can give me

I am doing all my listening nowadays (except when i cook ) on headphones, so the room is out of the picture (one less variable is good right? )

For the moment I am going to kep my power conditioner, the music is more lively with it, better depth to it, better prat.

quick OT question..
any impressions on a Cardas Quadlink-5 RCA interconnects?

Have an offer for one at 150$ for a 1M length cable.

Sachi, My opinion.. give it a Miss for that price you can do better.
IF you are interested in the transparents I have, PM me..it is the MM+ (newer version)

Sachi

In general, if u are going to be experimenting with conditioners and power cords then you better have ic's that can make you hear that change....so if you feel these are better than the current ones you are using then they may be considered but ofcourse at a price which is deverving of the ic.

Manek

Savyasaachi schrieb:

quick OT question.. any impressions on a Cardas Quadlink-5 RCA interconnects? Have an offer for one at 150$ for a 1M length cable.

Sir,
This may be a 'great' cable or it may be a rather 'poor' cable. Those are all 'opinions' of persons once they have installed a cable in their set up...
Each audio set up 'reacts' with cables in a different manner. So there is no 1 yard stick to evaluate.

You will have to go to your local hi fi dealers place, take 3 to 5 sets of cables home & install & listen & make note & then re visit those notes on different days to know what is going on.

The 'diff' that may be in my set up will 'show' up in yours [or may not even show up] in a totally different manner.....

just my 2 cents worth of 'observations' !

All the Best !

p.s. Make 'friends' in the audio circle & exchange cables - listen & decide...

Did a small cable change test yesterday @ AN's place.
Replaced a PS Audio Power Cord from Shunyata Hydra with an 'entry level' power cord from silencable.com [German] - 'wizzard' [I think]
There was a 'marked' improvement - I will let A.N. take off from here.. He has better skills [listening & writing] than me....[do not comment on this statement = just on the cords - please] !!

The same P.C. was in Bangalore with a few of you - just got it back on Friday.

Yesterday I changed my Acoustic Revive power cords with the Silencable power cords - 2 pieces on my power amplifier - fastest way to 'burn them in' [150 watt pure class 'A' power amplifier] !!
Will shift it back to my CD Player & DAC in January, 2010 for 're-listening' !

POWER CORDS MAKE A DIFFERANCE & THEY ARE RATHER BIG TO IGNORE !!

The problem is to choose the one that suits your set up - correctly - like the Cardas [top of the line] does not 'work' in A.N.'s set up;;;

http://silencable.com/SC/3900e.html

this is the cable we 'played' !

The Wizzard is the name.

I think the PC in Bangalore - Einstien Audio - is a good cord too [although I have not heard it] !
Many of the audio fraternity from there 'preferred' it [E.A.] to the Silencable Wizzard.
Just wanted to place it on 'record' !

I would love to listen to the 'e.a.' power cord - some day !

bhagwan69 schrieb:

POWER CORDS MAKE A DIFFERANCE & THEY ARE RATHER BIG TO IGNORE !!

there is no doubt o that one.

yesterday i was at abhi_pani's place. we played around with a couple PCs too..Only PC's, and the differences were so very interesting !
in the end the component type and the kind of power fed was illuminating. eg basic filterings kills the dynamics in a DAC but works great with a transport !
PCs used Einstein, Yamamura, Kubala Sonsna, Ecosse Big Red... they all have their strengths and "synergy" with components .

Power is definitely a very very important "component" like the room .

sivat schrieb:

Arj, These are solutions....let us find out what really is the problem that the power cord is supposed to solve ? We know atleast two problems that the power cord is supposed to solve.. 1) EMI - lower the interference 2) Keep the capacitance/inductance lower (for the last 1 meter ?) Are there more... Unless we know the problem, how can we solve it Regards Siva.

I do not know anything else a power cord can solve.
If your power quality is good (good power conditioning) a decent power cord which can do these two should should suffice.

I sometimes have felt audiophiles who do not have power conditioning tend to see the greatest changes with different power cords.Different kind of materials, construction seem to react in varying degrees to the various problems which are present in foul power. Hence there is always a "difference" when you change to a different power cord. But is the difference "good" ? It may be true that the "difference" may work with a particular configuration of gear. Once you change your gear, you may want to change your cords again.

A nice "state of affairs" where esoteric power cord manufacturers can make some dough ! Is it the scientific method audiophiles should follow ? I am not so sure !

If your power quality is good (good power conditioning) a decent power cord which can do these two should should suffice.

Sir,

What is 'good power conditioning' ?

I sometimes have felt audiophiles who do not have power conditioning tend to see the greatest changes with different power cords.

I used to use a UIT [10KVA] & a CVT [I think - that is what it is called] - full on 'rubbish'
"CONSTRAINED" the sound.
Threw it out & it was so much better....

I have them for 'sale' if some one in Mumbai wants, will give it cheap...It is too heavy to ship - 75 ++ KGs....

A nice "state of affairs" where esoteric power cord manufacturers can make some dough ! Is it the scientific method audiophiles should follow ? I am not so sure !

Sir, a silly question;
WHat if a 'finolex wire' is made into a 'power cord' with 'fancy' nylon brain & printed heat shrink & put in a hand varnished real wood box & sold @ 2000/- US $'s then by your analysis an 'audiophile' should be 'impressed' & buy that 'esoteric' cord ?

The simple fact it - all people 'love' their money & no one wants to 'waste' it. I am sure we agree till here...

If a cable is 'esoteric' it only means that it is 'expensive' [at least that is what I infer] & if that 'expensive' cable does not 'perform' will an 'audiophile' still buy it & endorse it ?

imho at the end of the day, sir, it is only about 'performance'
If a cable works [gels] in your set up - great - if it does not, leave it & move on... simple. The idea is to find a 'better' match between your components & cables [synergy]

Hi,

We all should keep in mind that science is still in its infancy, we are yet to measure and quantify all that makes up matter.

So unless we find a way to measure the right parameter we cannot talk of PC or Interconnect performance. It would be like speeding testing a limo on race track and the final verdict "slower than honda City V tech"

Regards
Anil

ani schrieb:

It would be like speeding testing a limo on race track and the final verdict "slower than honda City V tech"

Perfect;
Well said....

bhagwan69 schrieb:

A nice "state of affairs" where esoteric power cord manufacturers can make some dough ! Is it the scientific method audiophiles should follow ? I am not so sure ! Sir, a silly question; WHat if a 'finolex wire' is made into a 'power cord' with 'fancy' nylon brain & printed heat shrink & put in a hand varnished real wood box & sold @ 2000/- US $'s then by your analysis an 'audiophile' should be 'impressed' & buy that 'esoteric' cord ? The simple fact it - all people 'love' their money & no one wants to 'waste' it. I am sure we agree till here... If a cable is 'esoteric' it only means that it is 'expensive' [at least that is what I infer] & if that 'expensive' cable does not 'perform' will an 'audiophile' still buy it & endorse it ? imho at the end of the day, sir, it is only about 'performance' If a cable works [gels] in your set up - great - if it does not, leave it & move on... simple. The idea is to find a 'better' match between your components & cables [synergy] :)

By Power conditioning, I meant "good power". I was not inferring to power conditioning equipment. My mistake.

With my earlier post, I was meaning to point out PC's being used as tuning devices for specific systems. Nothing wrong with that though ! The reasoning behind that post was that a PC which works in one system may not work in another. Scientifically looking at it, this is a problem. A scientifically proven power re-generator will prove beneficial in all systems but a PC which works in one system may not work in another. Hence my dilemma.

[quote][quote="square_wave]
With my earlier post, I was meaning to point out PC's being used as tuning devices for specific systems. Nothing wrong with that though ! The reasoning behind that post was that a PC which works in one system may not work in another. Scientifically looking at it, this is a problem. A scientifically proven power re-generator will prove beneficial in all systems but a PC which works in one system may not work in another. Hence my dilemma.[/quote][/quote]

Well in the end Audio is a "Compromise" and every component is a "Tuning Device" ! I mean..one does change tubes/Caps etc just to get the sound one wants....and very few of us can figure out as to how real life the sound is

so it may be very difficult to explain many things in audio scientifically as in the end the best finale for music(al) system is the pure enjoyment one gets from the music...and that cannot be measured scientifically

Ideally, in this case, I (personally and IMHO etc ) would like to go with fixing the root cause ie the power itself first. but there are too many choices at a high range of prices but nothing is clear and definite so in many ways a good PC is a good way of giving the sound one cares for...and if it is reputed cord you have bought "used" then you could sell it wthout too much of a loss..

Bought a pair of Grover huffman SC interconnects...Bhagwan took your advice and hooked up with the local stereo store. FOr 10$ i can take as many interconnects and power cords as i want home and test them out. If I buy any then that 10$ can be redeemed on the purchase. Not bad at all.

Getting either Marinco 5266 IEC plugs or the Hubbel hospital grade ones for th power cords Jochen is sending me..Should be a step up from the el cheapo computer cords.

Arj schrieb:

Well in the end Audio is a "Compromise" and every component is a "Tuning Device" ! I mean..one does change tubes/Caps etc just to get the sound one wants....and very few of us can figure out as to how real life the sound is

If you are on a budget and want to play, then i will agree.

But most of us..atleast in this forum..have spent obsene amounts of hard-earned money (lakhs ..). Would this still be a better approach to get good sound ?

Compsromise, definetly cannot be avoided. However, I feel it might not be a good idea to start planning your system on the pricinple of "tuning"....especially when we spend ..so much money. Some amount of scientific research (pubislhed spec of a equipment is only half-the story on the scientific front) would defintely help....atleast in my opinion.

Atleast in my case, Power Cord as a tuning device definetly fired back. Any of the audiophile grade power cord only seem to degrade the sound.....well!! ...you got it...my system might not be good enough for audiophile powercords

This has emerged to be a longer thread than I anticipated !

Surprisingly, almost EVERY poster agrees that Power Cords DO Change the sound. ( That I think is a significant change from Posts I think I read here a couple of years ago ! )

While there are some who feel that Power cords are / should be used for system tuning, others condemn that approach. My 2 cents on the topic is:

More often than not, each of us has not bought the complete system ( CD + Amps + Speakers + Interconnects + Power cords ) as a single, group purchase that we have auditioned. Each item has probably been bought at a different time frame.. spread over months or even years.

Also, when we have transplanted our purchases into our system, it may not have sounded the way we anticipated... OR, over a period of time, our tastes have matured / migrated, and what WAS initially a thrill to listen to, NOW seems to have warts and imperfections, as we continue our audiophile journey.

THAT (IMHO) is the time we turn to Power Cords, Interconnects and tweaks to optimise / refine the sound to our new expectations.



On a somewhat different aspect, we all listen to music differently ( I plan to start another thread on this topic ) ..... Some audiophiles listen for Neutrality, others for musical flow and others for Energy ... the list is endless.

Audio equipment manufacturers are also audiophiles, with their own personal preferences and priorities, and their products reflect these preferences ( My recent Outburst about 'Bland-N-Dull' cables .. )

That said, I do believe that if you identify a Cable ( Power Cord or interconnect ) who's sound in your system 'Floats Your Boat' then a more expensive interconnect from the same manufacturer, WILL take that solution a step further in their higher priced product.

That to me is a pointer that these manufacturers KNOW what they are doing. There products are NOT 'Hit of Miss' random attempts (as some posts seem to imply), but a continuous, progression of their skill application in achieving the results that the manufacturer is aiming for.

Manufacturer A's product may not be what you like, and you prefer Manufacturer B's product. No problem. It really does not imply that A is a conman & B is the wise one. To me it just implies that your music preferences (or What Floats Your Boat) are more similar to than of B.

Okay..i sold my APC power conditioner yesterday and my system definitely sounds a lot different. THe bass has lost some of the lower octaves and punch to it. Everything sounds more softer which i don't like.

However, i sold it for an upgrade. Just paid for a MIT Z Stabilizer Mk2 power conditioner.
Orders placed for the Hubbel Hospital Grade black and white casing 20A plugs for the power cords. Might pick up some Pass and seymour jacks for the component end.

Can't wait to plug that into my system.

Thanks for Abhi, we tried the Einstein power cable ... i still ended up preferring the finolex for its fluidity.

Also, i personally preferred the studio/professional IC over Einstein, because the mids were a bit forward with the Einstein (similar to Audience AU24 IC). But the IC was good.

Regards
Siva.

Interesting Siva. I will shoot you a PM regarding this finolex. Probably have my folks send me some.

I borrowed a bunch of Interconnects to try out in my system and a PS audio Power plus AC cable.

The interconnects are
LAT-IC300
VDH orchid
Jena Labs Symphony

They will go up against my DIY mogami neutrik ICs and
Grover Huffman SC RCAs

Will report back after some comparisons.

I have Great Respect for the LAT.

Do post your feedback.

wow..been going back and forth between the LAT, jena and the Grovers.
The mogami neutrik profi DIY ones are no competition to the others.


Jena v/s Grover
I was surpsirsed at how well the Grovers did against the Jena. Considering i picked this pair up for 60$ shipped they sounded quite good. The sound signature is very different from the Jena and is very easily noticable. In fact that's the first thing that strikes to your ears. The midrange especially is just something else on the Jena. It sounds unadulterated. Excellent transparency. The Grovers had better weight in the midbass and better prat (when listening to Indian classical, the snap of the tabla and mrudangam was much better on the Grovers). The Jena was like a revelation with its infinite ability to bring out the micro details. It just pulls you in and steps out of the way. A very transparent cable.


Jena v/s LAT

Here, again the Jena has a unique sound signature while the LAT is similar to the Grover in sound signature.
The Jena beat the LAT all around except in the richess in the music, specifically the weight in the midbass region.The LAT just excelled there.
The jena just sounds so open and untethered. Very neutral sounding without any peaks across the spectrum.


LAT v/s Grover.

The LAT sounded better than the Grover in the mid bass region and in bringing out the details easily compared to the Grover SC. The Grover however beat it on soundstage and midrange.


In conclusion, I prefer the Grover SC over the LAT overall. The LAT has better resolution and detail but a smaller soundstage. The LAT also had the best bass impact among the cables.

The Grovers and the LAT had the edge over the Jena with a richer presentation.

I am seriously considering picking up the Jena for my main rig and upgrading to the latest Grover IC, the Grover SX by trading in the SC for 75$. Exchanged a coupleof emails with Grover Huffman the last few days and he is confident the new SX will give the Jena a run for the money. Says it is more open and detailed.
The Jena is being offered for 340$ for the pair (they have it at 395, but will sell for 340 if i commit). Original retail for the 1.5m pair cryo treated cable is 1400$. Only gripe is that the connectors have seen wear. I suppose some contact cleaner ought to address the issue.

Edit:

Oh and I tried the PS audio Power plus cable. I installed it on my DAC repalcing the stock IEC cord. I was disappointed with the effect it had. Lesser prat, duller, softer presentation . Didn't like it at all. Switching back to the stock IEC cord and everything was back to the way i like it. So for now my power situation is
wall socket -> MIT ZCord-> MIT Z Stabilizer mk2-> Transparent Power link Super(Amp), Standard IEC cord (DAC).

I love the Transparent cable. Great difference in the sound of the system.

Savyasaachi schrieb:

I love the Transparent cable. Great difference in the sound of the system.

Welcome;
You have tasted 'blood'
Good, keep on testing - you will only get 'poorer' [financially] & 'richer' [musically] !!

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Savyasaachi schrieb: I love the Transparent cable. Great difference in the sound of the system. Welcome; You have tasted 'blood' Good, keep on testing - you will only get 'poorer' [financially] & 'richer' [musically] !! :KR

haha..yes sir!..can't wait to get the "Einstein Chord" from Jochen.
i also just sent in my older SC version as part of a trade up for the latest SX. Grover claims its the latest and greatest version of his cable. Holding off buying the Jena till I listen to the new SX. The new SX construction is very interesting with different conductors altogether from the SC. Aluminum being used along with silver and gold..Think this isgoing to be the first cable i'll be hearing with aluminum conductors..

Bhagwan
You couldn't be more right ! You loose some
To gain some.

Sachi too many temptations around you :-)

Manek

Continuted the experiments in few of my friends place.

Finolex continues to win...and i continue to wonder

sivat schrieb:

Finolex continues to win...and i continue to wonder :.

Super !
Be 'happy'
You are 'richer' by many tens of thousands.....[no cost of 'expensive' power cords]
How I wish, you could come to Mumbai, with the 'FPC' [Finolex Power Cord] & we could do some listening @ a few freinds houses here - I would get so much to learn !

Bhagwan, I am sure Siva can send you one. It is really a learning experience. I could have gladly sent you a couple but unfortunately I am yet to find a "Genuine" Finolex vendor...the market is flooded with dupes. Siva bought them from Metro which is strictly restricted for Retailers, I cant buy from there.
If you guys know anyone in Mumbai who is reliable, I would gladly pick up a roll.

1. Hi Siva,
It would be GREAT if you could loan bhagwan69 a power cord, or better still still up with you and share the listening experience when you are next in Mumbai. It would be a learing experience for all.

2. Abhi, the are Many Genuine Finolex dealers in Mumbai. If you give me the EXACT Specification of the Finolex Cable used (best would be the Specific Finolex Part Number) then I could try and get it for you.

ALEAST I need is the guage and number of strands for the wire, and whether its full copper.

3. Hey, are Maneck's & Siva's designs the same ?

4. Incidentally, I am told (?) that Siltech has been bought out by a group of 3 Pune based Indians. One of them is the owner of Finolex....

My experience with Sivas Finolex cables are exactly the same. in fact i sold off my Kubala Sosna Fascination after a 1:1 with that !

AN, The wire is the standard Housegard 4sqmm wire (I think it is with 24 strands) . the cable is a simple braided one with 3 wires.

i tried a 'Finolex" and found it to be a fake..this is after advance booking and ordering only of original with a return option if fake. and for all practical putposes it is Exactly the same physically as the original.

i tried a 'Finolex" and found it to be a fake..this is after advance booking and ordering only of original with a return option if fake. and for all practical putposes it is Exactly the same physically as the original.

Interesting...

Hope this cable is not difficult to reproduce, ... like Cold Fusion... ( which incidentally, I DO believe in )

However, since Siva bought from a wholesaler, I trust he has lots of it to go around...

Abhi, Arj,

Abhi called me now...i will get u a bundle. You don't have to get a finolex role all the way from Mumbai

Siva.

Amp_Nut,

There is no Siva's magic forumla. It is just an age old forumla from the sixties....just braid the three wires (G, N & L) ..connect the IEC Female on one end and a standard 5 Amps plug on the other end. Nothing "audiophile" about the construction.

I will recommend to use the 4 Sq.mm wire (not sure of Guage). But i suppose even 2.5 Sq.mm would do...

I can send you couple of ready made cables. no probs. Please PM me your address.

Regards
Siva.

Thanks Siva :-)

sivat schrieb:

Abhi, Arj, Abhi called me now...i will get u a bundle. You don't have to get a finolex role all the way from Mumbai Siva.

Thank You Thank You

sivat schrieb:

Continuted the experiments in few of my friends place. Finolex continues to win...and i continue to wonder :.

Siva, I have stopped Wondering I love to be cable agnostic and this has at least put the Power cable in that category ..and I am loving it

Ampnut

For finolex I just plait 3 wires, not too tight. If you bend wires gently and not force a tight turn you will get the right number of bends. Used both sq mm's.
Preferred the thinner one for the source.

Anchor roma 5 amp plug with elcon iec on the other side.


Voila, you have a good cable. Best of all if one doesn't wan to diy, your friendly electrician would mak em for you for 50 bucks.

manek

Hi Manek,

Thanks for the recipe. Can I interest you to come over yo my place for a listening session, with your cable ? Would be great to have you over, at your convenience. Its been a while since you visited.


Siva, thanks for your VERY Generous offer. I do not want to put you thru the hassle, if I can can get an audition with Manek. ,,, But otherwise, I will Certainly request you for a loan. THANKS again !

Amp Nut,

I do not become Generous by offering you a power cord worth Rs.200 ... i could be if i offered you an expensive CD player...but i can afford that

Do try this power cord and let us know your opinion.

Regards
Siva.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

i tried a 'Finolex" and found it to be a fake..this is after advance booking and ordering only of original with a return option if fake. and for all practical putposes it is Exactly the same physically as the original. Interesting... Hope this cable is not difficult to reproduce, ... like Cold Fusion... ( which incidentally, I DO believe in ) However, since Siva bought from a wholesaler, I trust he has lots of it to go around...

Amp_Nut,

I assume it is only the purity of the copper that makes the difference between original and fake cables...

Regards
Siva.

Well i know what the next great PC is going to be..ie no PC !

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6725955.stm