power cords

Autor

Beitrag

abhi.pani
Inventar

#201 erstellt: 22. Feb 2010, 12:12

While we are at it, I tried a couple of different connectors on Siva's power cord and something that I least wanted happened.....they make a HUGE difference to the final sound

. While I could not try anything exotic because I did not have any exotic connectors but I just happened to try MX Vs CrabTree Vs Anchor Vs Wattgate 5266.
Every connector sounded different. The Wattgate stood out clearly, even though it is the very entry level product from Wattgate. The Crabtree was the worst of the lot, it puts the Vocals behind all the instruments. Anchor is what Siva had given originally, it is nice, smooth but the least detailed and somewhat diffused (relatively). MX had the most open Hifi-sh sound with amazing levels of details but lacked warmth. All the while I have to agree that there was a cleanliness in the sound that is a trademark of the wire itself

.

I am amazed at the potential of this Finolex cable and I am sure it can be taken to a different level. In this experiment, I only happened to change the male plug, the IEC side was still the SP road stuff for all iterations. I did some reading in AA and diy Audio and it turned out that experienced diyers have very high regards to good quality connectors and these are game changers at least for power cords

. Especially when you change both ends of the cord to high quality termination and also change the wall receptacle to good quality sockets.

[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 22. Feb 2010, 12:20 bearbeitet]

bhagwan69
Inventar

#202 erstellt: 22. Feb 2010, 14:22

abhi.pani schrieb:

they make a HUGE difference to the final sound

.

I did some reading in AA and diy Audio and it turned out that experienced diyers have very high regards to good quality connectors and these are game changers at least for power cords

. Especially when you change both ends of the cord to high quality termination and also change the wall receptacle to good quality sockets.

Interesting....

Great Research.

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#203 erstellt: 23. Feb 2010, 07:38

abhi.pani schrieb:

The Crabtree was the worst of the lot, it puts the Vocals behind all the instruments.

Hi Abhi,

are you sure that the phase was connected correctly? Your obserevation is typical for a phase shift in the power cord.
Since the Crabtree and the good (I think it's called Roma) Anchor plugs both use solid brass pins there shouldn't be an obvious difference.
Otherwise I do agree with you that the material used for pins and contacts does make a sonic difference. I personnally prefer copper of high purity. But those plugs are rare because high purity copper is rather soft and pins can bend easily. The highend manufactures such as Furutech and others usally plate their copper (of lower purity) contacts with gold, silver or even rhodium which sounds more neutreal than gold and silver. Just another chance to finetune the sonic properties of a system.

Regards,
Jochen

Arj
Inventar

#204 erstellt: 23. Feb 2010, 11:59

folks a Green alternative to power being unvieled soon by an american of indian origin..future of "pure power" into Hifi ?
One subunit will generate 0.25KW...put together into units of 100KW

http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/411/

Company website

http://www.bloomenergy.com/

[Beitrag von Arj am 23. Feb 2010, 16:39 bearbeitet]

square_wave
Inventar

#205 erstellt: 23. Feb 2010, 15:35

@Arj,

I saw this in the news paper today. Very impressive. The way to go

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#206 erstellt: 23. Feb 2010, 21:19

bhagwan69 schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb:

they make a HUGE difference to the final sound

.

I did some reading in AA and diy Audio and it turned out that experienced diyers have very high regards to good quality connectors and these are game changers at least for power cords

. Especially when you change both ends of the cord to high quality termination and also change the wall receptacle to good quality sockets.

Interesting....

Great Research.

:)

yes, Bhagwan, this is indeed true from my experience as well. male plugs & wall/mains sockets are 2 key elements of any power cord (much as I wanted to deny this at one point!

abhi.pani
Inventar

#207 erstellt: 23. Feb 2010, 21:47

goolimangala schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb:

The Crabtree was the worst of the lot, it puts the Vocals behind all the instruments.

Hi Jochen,
What you have guessed can very well be correct. There is every chance that I could have messed it up. Will do a double check and post back.

sivat
Stammgast

#208 erstellt: 24. Feb 2010, 05:37

abhi.pani schrieb:

goolimangala schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb:

The Crabtree was the worst of the lot, it puts the Vocals behind all the instruments.

Hi Jochen,
What you have guessed can very well be correct. There is every chance that I could have messed it up. Will do a double check and post back.

Hmm....this can be dangerous to your equipments...if you are not careful. There are some power amps that will blow...

bhagwan69
Inventar

#209 erstellt: 24. Feb 2010, 05:37

I might be out of line here - but it has been my observation that more often than not the bass looses defination when there is a 'phase' mis match.
I have not observed a location shift in the vocals. My 2 cents worth.

Arj
Inventar

#210 erstellt: 24. Feb 2010, 06:42

I would second Siva. this way your Fuse in the equipment would be in the Neutral instead of line...so the electronics would be protecting your fuse instead of the other way around

bhagwan69
Inventar

#211 erstellt: 24. Feb 2010, 07:08

Arj schrieb:

I would second Siva. this way your Fuse in the equipment would be in the Neutral instead of line...so the electronics would be protecting your fuse instead of the other way around :L

he he he

so true !

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#212 erstellt: 24. Feb 2010, 08:02

bhagwan69 schrieb:

My observation is that not only bass looses definition but the overall performance becomes a bit blurt and even the soundstage (width and depth) suffers. Such phase mis matches happen quite often, especially when you use Schuko plugs and the phase is not marked on the plugs and sockets. Also many manufacturers do not mark the phase on their male IEC socket of their equipment. So it's advisable to first check out where the phase of your equipment is if it's not yet marked.

Regards,
Jochen

bhagwan69
Inventar

#213 erstellt: 26. Feb 2010, 20:37

bhagwan69 schrieb:

The dCS is a great CD Player.

I have high regard for the company & its products.
I liked it in the SACD mode a lot.

http://www.avguide.c...tas-200?src=Playback

The dCS review in TAS - just in case anyone would be interested...

abhi.pani
Inventar

#214 erstellt: 03. Mrz 2010, 08:49

goolimangala schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb:

The Crabtree was the worst of the lot, it puts the Vocals behind all the instruments.

Hi Jochen,
Your guess was right. I corrected the connections and the issue is resolved

.

Though I still feel Anchor is better than Crabtree. It is smoother and more relaxed than Crabtree.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#215 erstellt: 03. Mrz 2010, 11:01

Though I still feel Anchor is better than Crabtree. It is smoother and more relaxed than Crabtree.

From what I read.... Nickel Plating is the worst ... lending a hard edge to the music. I THINK Anchor is Nickel plating, because its cheap and hardy, best for routine applications.

Plain copper the best, but it soon tarnishes, therefore Rhodium...

abhi.pani
Inventar

#216 erstellt: 03. Mrz 2010, 11:09

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Plain copper the best, but it soon tarnishes, therefore Rhodium...

Rhodium is also notorious for making the sound thin and analytical (some people call it precise

). Gold over copper is supposedly the best.

Nowadays Oyaide also uses Platinum and Palladium

Manek
Inventar

#217 erstellt: 03. Mrz 2010, 18:01

Ampnut,

Anchor is all nickel.
Anchor Roma wall receptacle is all brass and the three pin plug is all brass. The beauty of it is its cheap and doesn't have pointy screws on the inside to secure the power cord leads. It has a
top hat screw with a flat surface so one doest break the wire strands.

Other good consumer class brass plugs made in india are "asian". Get them at lohar chaal.
What you may also find there are old "made in england" plugs. That brass and bakelite when cleaned up works well.

Manek

bhagwan69
Inventar

#218 erstellt: 03. Mrz 2010, 18:48

Manek schrieb:

Ampnut,
Other good consumer class brass plugs made in india are "asian". Get them at lohar chaal.
What you may also find there are old "made in england" plugs. That brass and bakelite when cleaned up works well.
Manek

I have those - got them from Singapore - on my vDH Power Cords.
Really super plugs if you want to use Indian Terminations.
Had a few for sale - no one was interested, so put them to use on my CPU - full waste - imo !

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#219 erstellt: 09. Mrz 2010, 11:09

Manek schrieb:

Ampnut,

The beauty of it is its cheap and doesn't have pointy screws on the inside to secure the power cord leads. It has a
top hat screw with a flat surface so one doest break the wire strands.

Manek

Hi Manek,

Only last Saturday I terminated two Einstein "The Shield" (ordered by a member of this forum) with Crabtree wall plugs. There were no pointed screws. And the advantage of the Crabtrees is that the casing is a bit larger than Roma. So the termination is a less complicated affair when one uses cables with stiff and thick leads.
If only Finolex would come out with some good plugs made for audio purpose. Ajay Shirke had annouced it some years ago that they are working on it. But it's not a volume market. So perhaps they dropped the idea.

Jochen

Arj
Inventar

#220 erstellt: 09. Mrz 2010, 15:59

Jochen, any changes to sound vis-a-vis Roma ?

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#221 erstellt: 09. Mrz 2010, 17:58

Arj schrieb:

Jochen, any changes to sound vis-a-vis Roma ?

I can't make out, Arj. Both have solid brass pins and contacts. So the conductivity of the metal should be the same. And conductivity is what matters.

Regards,
Jochen

Arj
Inventar

#222 erstellt: 09. Mrz 2010, 18:04

Jochen, thats the engineering answer !!

is there a artistic/creative audiophile answer also within you ?

Manek
Inventar

#223 erstellt: 09. Mrz 2010, 18:56

Jochen

Thanks for the tip. Will check out the crabtree.

Manek

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#224 erstellt: 10. Mrz 2010, 05:53

Arj schrieb:

Jochen, thats the engineering answer !!

is there a artistic/creative audiophile answer also within you ? :KR

No Arj, I can't make out differences. There would be a lot of imagination involved if I would say yes there is a difference between Roma and Crabtree. There is definately a sonic difference between a cheap plug with nickel plated pins and a shielded plug with goldplated pins. But that the latter would provide in better sound stage and imageing I have my doubts.

By the way how about a discussion about which wall plug & socket sounds better: that which is located closer to the north pole or that which is closer to the south pole

. I am serious this was thread which was recently started by someone on a German hifi forum. But the discussion didn't really take off. Everybody was throughing stones at this guy

Jochen

bhagwan69
Inventar

#225 erstellt: 10. Mrz 2010, 06:46

My wall plugs are Bals [French] & Schnider [German]
I am a 100 % Schuko person, so my audio runs off a seperate line [fed from a seperate meter] & is terminated in copper housing & Bals & Schnider female Schuko Plugs.

The Power Re-Generator follows there after.
Pure Power 2000 i.e.

The Power Amps - Cadence - run of the mains on the wall [connectors mentioned above] & the front end is on the PP.
The wire to my house from the Power Supply Room [BEST] is entirely shielded in lead. About 25 meters ++ I think [boy did my office fellows go mad when it was done] !!

edit = spelling mistake

[Beitrag von bhagwan69 am 10. Mrz 2010, 06:49 bearbeitet]

Arj
Inventar

#226 erstellt: 10. Mrz 2010, 06:47

Let me guess...that was along the lines of natural magnetic field exciting the power sockets/power chords ?

[Beitrag von Arj am 10. Mrz 2010, 06:59 bearbeitet]

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#227 erstellt: 10. Mrz 2010, 06:51

Arj schrieb:

Let me guess...that was along the lines of natural magnetic filed exciting the power sockets/power chords ?

Yes, something like that.

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#228 erstellt: 15. Mrz 2010, 18:02

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Though I still feel Anchor is better than Crabtree. It is smoother and more relaxed than Crabtree.

Yes from my personal experience I also found that Nickel-plated male AC plugs were the worst. I happened to have a set from a pretty well-known company & sonically they sucked pretty badly!

The sound was very brittle & had an edge to it. For a few weeks I could not put my finger on it mostly because I was in denial that a male plug could make so much of a difference!

Plain copper is almost never used for male AC plugs because pure copper or any material with a very high % of Cu is too soft & does not have sufficient tensile strength. Hence, it cannot take multiple plug/unplugs. What I've found is that gold ol' brass is the best sounding material for male AC plugs. Untreated brass & cryogenically treated brass - both are very good. There is a camp of audiophiles that postulates that cryogenic treatment eliminates the microdynamics/nuances in the music. I'm afraid that I have no personal experience in this matter.
Generally, 2 types of brass are used in male AC plugs - one that has 30% Zinc (also known as Alpha brass since it has only 1 type of crystalline structure) & another that has 37% Zinc (also known as Alpha-beta brass since it has 2 different types of crystalline structures & is generally harder than Alpha brass). The other good thing about Brass is that thin layer of oxidation that takes place when in contact with air is conductive (unlike pure copper) hence contact resistance does not increase (unlike copper).

square_wave
Inventar

#229 erstellt: 04. Apr 2010, 16:13

Who makes decent IEC female plugs in India ? The one that goes into the IEC in the equipment ? Anchor ROMA or Crab tree seems to be a good choice for the Male AC plugs.

I found Bulgin (uk) plugs here.

http://in.rsdelivers...lectAttribute=Bulgin

Thanks in advance.

[Beitrag von square_wave am 04. Apr 2010, 16:48 bearbeitet]

Manek
Inventar

#230 erstellt: 05. Apr 2010, 05:12

I have tried the bulgin from rs. They are decent but too expensive.

I have found the locally made elcom to be decent too and vfm. You will have issues squeezing fat cables thru both.

I use elcom mostly.

If your office tech guys can space the iec plugs that come with RAD leased line modems then use those.
Their body casing being der and connectors made of brass, china stuff but works well.

Manek

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#231 erstellt: 05. Apr 2010, 08:01

I am just dying to try the Jochen power cords..my friend is busy taking care of kids, so ended up and bought some Leviton 8215-C hospital grade plugs..expecting delivery tomorrow.
I will also get to try out the Finolex cables (thanks Abhi

)..

bombaywalla, thanks for that very informative post...brass plugs and oxidation, most intruiging

[Beitrag von Savyasaachi am 05. Apr 2010, 08:04 bearbeitet]

square_wave
Inventar

#232 erstellt: 05. Apr 2010, 09:08

Manek,

How much do the Bulgin cost per connector ? The elcom seems to be the favorite choice. Are they brass ?

I went through your old thread here.

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-168-9.html
Which model did you pick up from the Bulgin ? They seem to be a decent quality industrial IEC maker. They seem to have a few models. Which do you think will work with Finolex cables ?

http://in.rsdelivers...lectAttribute=Bulgin

[Beitrag von square_wave am 05. Apr 2010, 10:22 bearbeitet]

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#233 erstellt: 05. Apr 2010, 13:02

square_wave schrieb:

http://in.rsdelivers...lectAttribute=Bulgin

Thanks in advance.

Hi Square,

when you are looking for a decent IEC female plug with solid brass contacts and an easy mounting system for leads diameter up to 3 sqmm which is also reasonably priced just contact me. When you are looking for something fancy and/or esotheric I am, as usual, not the right address.

Regards,
Jochen

square_wave
Inventar

#234 erstellt: 05. Apr 2010, 13:06

Hi Jochen,

Thanks. Nothing Fancy or esoteric for me. Just good quality solid plugs are what is needed.

Have send you a pm.

Manek
Inventar

#235 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 05:42

Hi square

My bulgins were black and straight body, not the right angled ones. Bought them from rs a couple of years ago so don't remember price. Compared to elcom they wwere expensive. I will send you the bulgin part no if I can get to it.

Elcom are not brass.

Manek

Manek
Inventar

#236 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 05:47

Square

If memory serves me right the bulgins were about 600 rupees a piece + taxes

Manek

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#237 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 08:07

Need to borrow the heat-gun from my friend so i can finish these cables up..so far have the finolex cable on my main headphone amp (sounds frigging great..astounded really). The Jochen power cords are on the secondary amp and on my DAC. I need to get one more female IEC jack so i can finish terminating the second finolex cable.
Will do a head to head between the two and the Tranaparent audio Power link super (which the finolex already beats)as time permits.

here are some pics.

http://img530.imageshack.us/g/cables002.jpg/

bhagwan69
Inventar

#238 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 08:09

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Will do a head to head between the two and the Tranaparent audio Power link super (which the finolex already beats)as time permits.

here are some pics.

http://img530.imageshack.us/g/cables002.jpg/

interesting observation....

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#239 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 08:30

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Will do a head to head between the two and the Tranaparent audio Power link super (which the finolex already beats)as time permits.

here are some pics.

http://img530.imageshack.us/g/cables002.jpg/

interesting observation....

:P

I was quite taken aback..the Tranparent is a 400$+ cable..but the FInolex matches it at every level, but unbelievably extends even further in the highs, seems to have a snap to it that the transparent didn't.
I will however take some time to make sure that what am hearing is really an improvement over the Transparent audio cable.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#240 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 09:14

I am not surprised

. But rather happy that you liked them.
BTW, what make are those Male plugs ? They look nice and solid. I am looking out for something like Wattgate/Hubbel/Furutech to terminate my power cords. If the ones you are using are nice to start with, do let me know.

[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 06. Apr 2010, 09:15 bearbeitet]

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#241 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 09:21

abhi.pani schrieb:

I am not surprised

The male plugs are Leviton 8215-Cs hospital grade plugs. They are equivalent to Hubbell 8215-C.

I really like them. They are nice and solid and slot into the wall socket extremely well. At about 10$ a piece shipped, well worth it I think. Apparently the same plug is used on Transparent Audio's higher end cables and also on some 2000$ Synergistic Research cables.

The contact material is brass and accepts up to 10AWG cables.

abhi.pani
Inventar

#242 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 09:34

Should we compare these to Wattgate 5622 plugs ?
Whats the IEC you are using ?

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#243 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 09:44

abhi.pani schrieb:

Should we compare these to Wattgate 5622 plugs ?
Whats the IEC you are using ?

Using a Schruter for the IEC side on the FInolex. For the Jochen cords they are the ones he usually uses.

These Levitons 8215-Cs are supposedly better than the 5266 variety. Leviton and Hubbell also make the 5266 variant.

[Beitrag von Savyasaachi am 06. Apr 2010, 09:49 bearbeitet]

square_wave
Inventar

#244 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 10:20

Hey Sachi,

Send you a PM.

square_wave
Inventar

#245 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 10:28

Hello Abhi and Sachi,
Won’t the Anchor Roma or Crabtree (both with brass contacts) do a good enough job for the Male electrical plug ? I feel the hospital grade plugs may work better if your wiring and the female socket in your house are all converted to hospital grade.

Do you get these Levitons and Hubbells to fit Indian style sockets ?

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#246 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 12:10

Just a reminder to DIYers ...

The BEST connector is NO Connector !

Try directly soldering the wires, atleast to the inside of the female power receptacle of yr audio equipment. You will have to ofcourse get the lid off... but when removed, there will be no tell tale signs or depreciation in the equipment price...

Savyasaachi, with all the stuff U assemble, do give it a try and see if yr system can resolve the difference.

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#247 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 13:25

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Just a reminder to DIYers ...

The BEST connector is NO Connector !

Try directly soldering the wires, ....

Amp Nut I do agree with you. This will reduce transition resistence dramatically.

And this applies to interconnects and speakercables also.
But what will the cable changers then do the whole day?

Regards,
Jochen

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#248 erstellt: 06. Apr 2010, 17:04

Solder...

Spending no money on connectors, and funneling that instead on better Cables !

Jokes aside, I think the biggest stumbling block of DIYers, is the sub-consious conviction : Its GOT to be the Greatest ... I Built it ( and No One can build as good as me ! ) "

THAT closes their ears ( and their mind )

....

sivat
Stammgast

#249 erstellt: 07. Apr 2010, 03:54

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Jokes aside, I think the biggest stumbling block of DIYers, is the sub-consious conviction : Its GOT to be the Greatest ... I Built it ( and No One can build as good as me ! ) "

THAT closes their ears ( and their mind )

....

How would someone feel of a system on which he/she had just spent..say 4 lakhs..would'nt it be the same

It would very difficult to argue, the ears are going to be more "open" even in this case

square_wave
Inventar

#250 erstellt: 07. Apr 2010, 07:04

@ampnut

This soldering can be done by anyone, “Diy” or” Off the shelf” gear. We could do away with connectors altogether. Why only Diy’ers ?

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#251 erstellt: 07. Apr 2010, 08:20

siva sid:

How would someone feel of a system on which he/she had just spent..say 4 lakhs..would'nt it be the same

It would very difficult to argue, the ears are going to be more "open" even in this case.

Good point, Siva.

I have been down BOTH those roads ... DIY and expensive purchases.

I can honestly say, I have admitted (atleast to myself !) that the purchase has fallen short of my expectations.

A similar admission ( even to myself) was not forthcomming, as I would build a design that would, (IMHO) address all the technical design issues, and I would have built it to perfection. A good example of that was the Elektor "Crescendo", 200 Watt MOSFET Power Amp... built to 'perfection.'

I now use Gamut MOSFET Monoblocks.

P.S: BTW I STILL cant figure out what could be done better - either in design or build - for the "Crescendo" to be the best sounding amplifier (except maybe low overall Feedback .. )