power cords

Hello AN !

You are most welcome - any time.

Any gear that I have @ home can come to your place anytime.
Any other audiophile wishes to take any of my gear to their place in Mumbai - is most welcome.

It will be a pleasure for me to share the experiance.

With regards your review - it was well recited.
I appreciate the effort.


[orangeboom]

The dCS is a great CD Player.

I have high regard for the company & its products.
I liked it in the SACD mode a lot.

Ampnut, Thanks for the great review. Rarely do we see a Desi review of such fine products. Performance wise, if you look at the following parameters how much are these players are above the electrocompaniet you currently own ? Music lover mode as opposed to the nit picking scientist mode Let's say your favorite musician who happens to be an audiophile too is visiting you and you are sitting around sipping your favorite poison and just enjoying the music 1. Overall enjoyment of your music. 2. The connection with the performers. 3. How close you are to the music. Absence of Fog in between you and the music. 4. Embarrassment factor.

Thanks for your kind words, Square wave.

To respond to yr queries :

Im 'Music Lover Mode ' I would rate ( best 1st ) ...this includes Overall enjoyment, Connection with the music & how close you are to the music )

1. Meridian 808.2
2. Electrocompaniet EC-1 UP
3. dCS Puccini

In what I liked, as they sounded in My setup : ( this includes
1. dCS Puccini ( I LOVED the way it sounded in my system )
2. The Meridian 808.2
3. The Electrocompaniet

Absence of Fog in between you and the music:

BEST: dCS by a MILE !

2. Meridian 808.2
3. Electrocompaniet... very good on its own, but the other 2 players are exhaulted company ... !

4. Embarrassment factor.

Sorry, SQ Wave... I dont quite understand your query, but each in their areas of strength, 'Pissed all over' the EC ... to borrow a term sometimes used by Bhagwan69. ... but then the SHOULD since they cost Much more than 3x the Electrocompaniet's US $ 5K asking price. In that sense, as with all High end stuff, you rapidly hit the law of diminishing returns, and the EC ofers (IMHO) Great Value For Money.

Thanks also to Bombaywalla, & bhagwan69 for your feedback & comments.

Thanks also to all those who read and suffered this long post, and still held their peace.

@Ampnut.


Thank you for the detailed reply Ampnut.

" Embarrassment factor ". Okay this factors into account how embarrassed you are by the performance of a certain gear. This is again determined by who you are showing it off to

The company of a musician, a hardcore audiophile, a random friend who likes music………all these people can elicit different levels of embarrassment or pride in the owner. In this case your company is an audiophile-musician for whom the connection with the music would be the most significant or distinguishing measure.

Hey AN,
That was really nice. Very well chosen approach to the review.
It exactly conveys what each player might be sounding like.
Also, I am perplexed that even when you have the two best CDPs in the world to listen, compare and may be buy, you still are not in that state of mind where you can say "Cmon, I can buy anyone of these and be done with it". That shows how difficult is it to setup a system where one can sit back and stop worrying about upgrades, something that can make you forget about the electronics. May be a good TT would do that .
Moreover you have found one of the CDPs to be not very musical (in PCM mode) and thats really scary. That shows how difficult is to make music happen .
Are you planning to listen to other CDPs ? Say, the likes of Bow Technologies, Accuphase, Einstein or a Symphonic Line ?

May be a good TT would do that .

Do you think TT's sound better ?

Are you planning to listen to other CDPs ? Say, the likes of Bow Technologies, Accuphase, Einstein or a Symphonic Line ?

How ?

BT has shut down - the best CD Player I have ever heard;

I do not know if the Accuphase Dealer has stock ?
If he does, it would be great to listen to that.

SL is not sold in India & no one I know has that, so how do we manage that ?

Same goes for Einstein Audio - is there a player in India ? I would love to hear that @ home if possible....

abhi.pani schrieb:

"Cmon, I can buy anyone of these and be done with it". That shows how difficult is it to setup a system where one can sit back and stop worrying about upgrades, something that can make you forget about the electronics. May be a good TT would do that .

Don't jump on me guys............but I am sticking my head out and saying that if the highest end source or gear in the territory of a DCS still wants you to acquire even better for musical satisfaction, the commitment is laudable, but i think one will not reach that stage of nirvana in one's life time.

An alternative approach where musical satisfaction can be achieved looks more reachable

Please note that I am in no way undermining the fine engineering and the technological advances that has gone into these fine machines. They are an amazing tour de force in technology and the commitment shown by audiophiles in acquiring such is admirable

I concurr with what Abhi Pani & Square Wave are saying ...

There is no perfect player.. and we also need to keep in mind that the rest of our systems are also imperfect. Each brand takes you to a higher level of its House sound. If that floats yr boat, consider it 'perfect'.

Based on my limited exposure to high end CD players, I have observed :

The BOW Tech CD player is SHEER Magic on female vocals, but lacks a true extended top end ( which delivers a 'bite' when the music calls for it, like the piercing sound of an aggresive trumpet. It also left me feeling the bass Slam was a bit polite.

The Puccini is fantastic, with its dry sound, but that in turn can miss out on reality... like what it did when I was listening to Track 7 on Hadouk Trio's Baldamore. The track is dominated by a Very forward, aggressive female vocal. The Puccini did not deliver the presence or immediacy or even the Outright forward and aggressive nature of the vocal.

The Meridian took the level of performance of my Electrocompaniet MUCH further, but basically.. to me it was a similar sound, Better, but not Earth Shatteringly / radically different.

All the above 3 players are priced at 3x my player's list, and to me, did not induce me to put down mega bucks on either of them, particularly at a time that many predict are the sunset years for CD playout...

Just my 2 cents.

Hello AN !

In my books - your set up is well balanced;
The EMC-1 up + AR + GamuT + Revel & Shunyata are a good combination.
If, I was you, I would stick to it.
The CD Player change is not warrented.
1 product that is 'drastically' different from the rest, will ruin the synergy that is currently present.
You present set up is musical & has a reasonable level of resolution.

I truly enjoy your set up & with the dCS & 808i.2 gone - within a few days, you will not miss it...
It is a lot of money 5 Lacs & up - keep it, there are better places to spend it...[computer audio + DAC] if you so desire...

Thanks for your views & encouraging feedback, Bhagwan69

[quote="Amp_Nut"]
The BOW Tech [b]CD player is SHEER Magic [/b]on female vocals, but lacks a true extended top end ( which delivers a 'bite' when the music calls for it, like the piercing sound of an aggresive trumpet. It also left me feeling the bass Slam was a bit polite.
[quote]

I have a different take on the BT ZZ 8 v08.
It was the best CD Player I ever owned.

If it had a 'digital in' I would never have sold it.
I have moved out of CD's so for me it is computer all the way !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Thanks for your views & encouraging feedback, Bhagwan69 :prost

You present set up is musical & has a reasonable level of resolution.

Better than most audiophile houses in Mumbai that I visit - so you are well placed. Besides, in the given room size - what you manage is stupendous.

This CD Player 'shoot out' of sorts was a good idea & an eye opener / ear opener for me.
I am thankful to you for that.

There are differances & they are not subtle [as you put it] !
We need to find one that 'floats' our boat & stick to that.

p.s. I too agree - the days of CD are 'restricted' !
In Car audio - usb [solid state] sticks have become the norm. It will take over home audio too - just a matter of time.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

p.s. I too agree - the days of CD are 'restricted' ! In Car audio - usb [solid state] sticks have become the norm. It will take over home audio too - just a matter of time.

Sir, Car audio is for passive listening...even a radio works.
Serious home audio is different and ease of use is the last criteria for a serious audiophile to switch media IMO .

Sir, Car audio is for passive listening...even a radio works.

I may not agree with you;

I take my Car Audio very seriously [at least I used to]
Lost interest.
If interested - do go through these :-

a]
http://www.team-bhp....lation-pictures.html

b]
http://www.team-bhp....-stinger-optima.html

c]
http://www.team-bhp....illusion-carbon.html
this was 'well done' in my book - see the sub woofer enclosure I made.

Please do comment....

Serious home audio is different and ease of use is the last criteria for a serious audiophile to switch media IMO

What is ease of use is there with no loss in quality ?
Then will you switch ?

I did my 'test' before I dumped my CD's for HDD playback...

I may be 'drifting' but, CAR Audio is only about treatment & set up.
In all my cars the bass plays from the 'front' [beyond my wind screen] outside my car. Not from the 'back' like in 99 % of the cars.
The 'arrival' time of the woofer & mids & highs is 'co-ordinated' The 'image height is 'good' no one 'sings' from 'down below' !!
Maybe on your next [1st visit] I shall 'expose' you to it !!
This is the wrong forum for car audio discussion....
I apologise once again.

Impressive stuff there Bhagwan..been ages since i had looked seriously into ICE. Priorities have changed though now..ICE isn't as important as being focused on the craziness around you so you can keep yourself alive.

Right now, I love using my PC as a transport.
That said, I believe in ease of media usage and availability, but given the opportunity to be proven wrong I would happily switch to a more involved media type such as vinyl or even CDs for that matter.

Very Nice pics of the car install, bhagwan.

Even better was the sound... have heard Both yr installs. Amanda McBroom's 'Dreaming' player in the little car, with its taut bass wallop, still lingers in my mind.

The SKODA was another level altogether.

Must thank you for the SKODA audition about 3 years ago, which inspired me to spend Rs 50K on my relatively humble car system. I then wondered if I was spending too much, but the bill ran up REAL Quick !

Now I regret that I did not spend that extra Rs 10K and get time alignment on my Alpine Head Unit.

Given the fact that I spend more than 1:30 Hrs daily in my car commuting, I drive immense enjoyment from my car stereo. Infact, I spend far more time listening to my Car stereo than my Home system

Thanks again for initiating me into good car audio.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Serious home audio is different and ease of use is the last criteria for a serious audiophile to switch media IMO What is ease of use is there with no loss in quality ? Then will you switch ? I did my 'test' before I dumped my CD's for HDD playback...

Well, I said that because you took the example of usage of flash memory in car audio to support the statement that its gonna enter the home audio soon. I do not buy that example. Yes, an average enthusiast spends a lot on Car audio than a home audio (I am yet to figure out why ) but that does not make him an audiophile. He still wants the most hassle free way of operating the system and keep his car neat. Hence a pen drive works for him. It works for many of us as well because we dont do serious listening in Car (exceptions are always there ).

I am sure you would have done a good job on your HDD playback system and you have all the reason to stick to that because choosing from 5k CDs is painful.

AN, thanks for a really fantastic review..this is the first time i am reading such a detailed well written A/B between 2 CDPs which are both some form of an ultimate in digital.

from your initial reaction as well a Bhagwans comments, i guess it would be a crime to break the current Balance of your system..I guess you will lose something if you want to gain another now

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Right now, I love using my PC as a transport. That said, I believe in ease of media usage and availability, but given the opportunity to be proven wrong I would happily switch to a more involved media type such as vinyl or even CDs for that matter.

Yes;

The 'romance' of TT can never be taken away.
Set up & LP Cleaning - placing it, playing it. It is like drinking wine....store it right - open the cork - pour it in a decanter - obtain correct temperature - get the right glass - pour the correct quantity - see the colour - sniff it - taste it - so on and so forth !! Sure an enjoyable experiance. Just like a TT.
A CD made it faster - scoth on the rocks or with soda / water.
HDD is a Tequile Shot. Salt & Lime & you are done.

BTW - I never drink Tequila - but HDD is the way to go for me.
Definately as good as CD & faster & more convenient.

SCOOP from my friend in the Netherlands who owns and loves his dCS Puccini:

dCS Debussy - High End Digital Connectivity
Currently being Unveiled at The High End Show in Las Vegas is the dCS Debussy USB DAC. This is a bargain basement product for dCS, and features a fully configured Ring DAC based digital to analogue converter with USB input. Other inputs include S/PDIF, optical and dual AES supporting sample rates up to 192 kb/s.

The price of the Debussy is £7,500, and delivery will be available from the end of Feb 2010.



Regarding my comments that the Puccini sounded 'Dry' in my system, he had a valid suggestion;

It sounds dry cause you defected to the dark side of sand amplifiers buddy!! throw in that tube gear and it (and you) is one happy puppy!! ;-))

Amp_Nut schrieb:

It sounds dry cause you defected to the dark side of sand amplifiers buddy!! throw in that tube gear and it (and you) is one happy puppy!! ;-)) ;)

AN, I did not get the drift. Is he asking you to remove the tube preamp from your chain ?

He says I have deflected to the Dark side.... of Sand Amplifiers, referring to Silicon (made from Sand) ie solid state ..

He is telling me to throw IN (not out) tubes in my system, to take away the dryness from the dCS Puccini. and take into my system, more of the tube warmth and lushness, with a tube power amp ...

Hmmm...Sand Amplifiers !!

hybrids guys..its the way of the future..

Savyasaachi schrieb:

hybrids guys..its the way of the future.. ;)

is it ?

abhi.pani schrieb:

Hmmm...Sand Amplifiers !! :hail

This is the amp he suggested :-

http://www.vacuumsta...&b=734180.3293116237

We have a pair on its way in.
Shall arrive in March end. They are being built...

Savyasaachi wrote: hybrids guys..its the way of the future..

Is it ? Then technolgy would have done a full circle...

Glass (Valves) to Sand (Solid State) and Back To Glass

Surprising that both Glass and silicon come from Sand... Is it the cradle of all sound

For my ates i feel that hybrids strike a balance between the two. Granted I haven't been exposed to the real high end of vacuum tubes (10k$ and beyond, but in the under 10k region at least for headphone amplifiers and preamps i believe hybrids enable designers to build circuits that retain the lushness of tubes while also being capable of delivering the brute power and speed of solid state units.

Pure tubes amps sound too sugary to my ears and don't seem to be able to keep up with some of my music collection.

The Old tube amps were sugary and some of the new tube amps are designed to be Sugary.
But it need not be so !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

He says I have deflected to the Dark side.... of Sand Amplifiers, referring to Silicon (made from Sand) ie solid state .. He is telling me to throw IN (not out) tubes in my system, to take away the dryness from the dCS Puccini. and take into my system, more of the tube warmth and lushness, with a tube power amp ...

@Ampnut,

How can a source like DCS be dry ? It needs to be as natural sounding as it gets for the premium you are paying for it.

Do you really buy into the argument that the DCS needs tubes downstream to make it sound like "music" ? Real music is not dry !

Do you really buy into the argument that the DCS needs tubes downstream to make it sound like "music" ? Real music is not dry !

dCS / Meridian / Accuphase / Esoteric / Burmester / Soulution etc. etc. There are so many option to choose from.
Eash has its own 'house' sound & what suits you may not suit DC & I may like some other & every one of us on this forum & else where may like a different sound.
I like GAD / AN like GamuT / A.P. likes S.L. so there you have it. All the amps have a different house sound & each has its own takers...

bhagwan69 said:

I like GAD / AN like GamuT / A.P. likes S.L. so there you have it. All the amps have a different house sound & each has its own takers...

I TOTALLY agree with you. Each brand usually has its own house sound. Think MacIntoch, Conrad Jhonson, Naim...

Sadly,Hi Fi magazine rarely declare / highlight these issue, which Would hepl thye buying public shortlist...

Ampnut, you do have tubes in your system don't you ?


Manek

@AN, Bhagwan

I agree about the house sound. These I presume these are slight variations in flavour. But if a source makes the sound “dry” and it needs ripening by something downstream, there is something wrong.

I strongly feel that a system with a DCS source (or anything equivalent) and associated gear in the same territory should make you transfixed in your listening chair, your brain needs to shut up and relax to the music like it happens with live music. If this does not happen, there is something wrong in hi-end audio.

A counter argument to this would be that “there is always one flavour in high-end audio” which an audiophile may like and he would stop nit picking and will eventually surrender to the music. But this also means that there is nothing “true” or “real” about hi end audio. It is all about different flavours. I am saying this because all audiophiles who like natural sound of music will “surrender and relax” to music if they listen live. But why do they react rather violently to a different flavour of hi end audio setup which are rather outrageously priced ?

What is hiend audio ?

Manek said:

Ampnut, you do have tubes in your system don't you ?

Yes... Partly.

My Audio Research LS-26 Pre amp is a Hybrid ( Valve + Sand.. )

square_wave schrieb:

@AN, Bhagwan I agree about the house sound. These I presume these are slight variations in flavour. But if a source makes the sound “dry” and it needs ripening by something downstream, there is something wrong.

not sure if you really want to "correct" the sound by "controlling" the downstream !

and just because you hear the "dryness" need not necessarily mean it is due to one component..the sole synergy of all components + room acoustics + power gives one that impression

sometimes just changing the location of the speakers will make it sound different..so would the Isolation, the power (chords) or just about anything else..thats what make this hobby turn from fascinating to frustrating and back again (and everything else in between !)

I guess my state of mind these days is pretty obvious !

square_wave schrieb:

Amp_Nut schrieb: He says I have deflected to the Dark side.... of Sand Amplifiers, referring to Silicon (made from Sand) ie solid state .. He is telling me to throw IN (not out) tubes in my system, to take away the dryness from the dCS Puccini. and take into my system, more of the tube warmth and lushness, with a tube power amp ... @Ampnut, How can a source like DCS be dry ? It needs to be as natural sounding as it gets for the premium you are paying for it. Do you really buy into the argument that the DCS needs tubes downstream to make it sound like "music" ? Real music is not dry !

From some angle I agree with Sq_wave.
Having a house sound is inevitable.
But assuming that the rest of the system is pretty neutral without the typical dryness associated with studio gears or badly designed SS gears...a source component sounding dry and not very musical definitely raises serious concern to me. Typically such a thing happens when the harmonics are incorrect and thats deifnitely worrying even for a basic CD player...here we are talking about world's best CDP. I might be sounding a bit harsh here but such equipments are just "flawed" IMO.
And trying to compensate for a flaw by using another equipment is not what I call "Synergy"...nope !!
Even though I have almost no idea of how AN's system sounds like or the Meridian or dCS sounds like but I can reasonably guess one thing...If a good tube amp like the ones mentioned in the post above by Bhagwan can make the dCS sound better in AN's system, the Meridian will sound even better . Basically in every neutral system the Meridian will edge out the dCS for musicality and thats simply because it has the ability to reproduce the complex structure of music more correctly which would always resemble better to the real thing than the dCS.

To me, system matching/synergy is done correctly when all the components are individually musical but one tries to match it electrically so that each component does a nice hand shake with the other :angel. I can also understand when one likes a tad more sugar or a little less spice and tries to achieve it through what we call House Sound.

WOW !!!
While I was typing the above post rather carefully , people have already responded in similar lines .

square_wave schrieb:

@AN, Bhagwan A counter argument to this would be that “there is always one flavour in high-end audio” which an audiophile may like and he would stop nit picking and will eventually surrender to the music. But this also means that there is nothing “true” or “real” about hi end audio. It is all about different flavours. I am saying this because all audiophiles who like natural sound of music will “surrender and relax” to music if they listen live. But why do they react rather violently to a different flavour of hi end audio setup which are rather outrageously priced ? What is hiend audio ?

Sir,
I heard Rach Piano Concerto # 2 & Rimsky Shahzarde 2 days back @ Jamshed Bhabha.
Now, I have an issue with the concert hall [I really do] !
So the obvoius conclusion is - Bhagwan is deaf -
So be it !
My point being, each person - so I believe - likes his audio / sound in a particular manner & some like it relaxed - some like it 'edgy' - some like it 'fast' - some like it with a 'halo' !!
To each his own.
None of it is High End.
Price of Audio Equipment has nothing to do with its performance [you can quote me on this] !!
At the end of the day it is what 'floats' your boat !!
Siva's set up is loved by him, I may not agree with that sound, I lover certain other set ups & others may not like it !!
That is life - it is all about expression in the end & which ever can 'communicate' with you - is the winner !!
my humble opinion....

Gentlemen - if I may be allowed to write or rather read between AN's post.
The dCS is not a 'bad' player.
It is a damn good player !
It is super in resolution & plays SACD like a dream.
It may well be amongst the top 3 or 5 1 box players in the world....
So, please do not write it off... I request you.

With regards the Meridian - that too is a very nice player - I like it. That is why I have 2 of them....
The point being, at that level they are like Audi / BMW / Mercedes. All are good cars - some people like A - some like B - some like C.
Does not make the non chosen one a 'bad' car !!
Same here.
It is so close - it is only about the 'personal likes'
Hence, I 'shout' this out. Come & listen & then form an opinion. We are talking about the intensity of the colour 'red' when we have never seen it !! Please do not do that.
Make an effort - listen & then form an opinion & comment.
I plead that with all of you.

edit = spelling mistake

Bhagwan, agree with you completely on the above. in fact the difference between dry/wet etc is in ANs system (which is an extremely resolving system) has been found because of a relative comparison between two of the ultimate CDPs.

i guess it would be really unfair to go around saying the dCS is a Dry sounding source (in the absolute sense) ..it sounds dry on ANs system but may sound fantastic on some other system.


in the end we are hearing the CDP differences..but it is the system we are hearing and not the CDP.

Bhagwan69 Said:

The dCS is not a 'bad' player. It is a damn good player ! It is super in resolution & plays SACD like a dream. It may well be amongst the top 3 or 5 1 box players in the world.... So, please do not write it off... I request you. With regards the Meridian - that too is a very nice player - I like it. That is why I have 2 of them.... The point being, at that level they are like Audi / BMW / Mercedes. All are good cars - some people like A - some like B - some like C. Does not make the non chosen one a 'bad' car !! Same here. It is so close - it is only about the 'personal likes' Hence, I 'shout' this out. Come & listen & then form an opinion. We are talking about the intensity of the colour 'red' when we have never seen it !! Please do not do that. Make an effort - listen & then form an opinion & comment. I plead that with all of you.

Arj said:

in fact the difference between dry/wet etc is in ANs system

Just for the record:

BOTH the Meridian AND the dCS gave we WET DREAMS !

Ampnut,

Stuff of dreams huh ?:-) proof enough that nothing was cold or dry about the dcs :-)

You better get one of them then.

Manek

Manek schrieb:

Ampnut, You better get one of them then.

I would not recommend that;
If he 'upgrades' his CD Player - lot of other things may too have to get 'moved'
I am not so sure if that is required at this stage in his set up.
It is playing very well & I for one would leave it at that. You should try and drop by for a cup of tea some evening - I truly find AN's set up very well balanced; One of the 'better' audio set ups in our city [of the little I am exposed to] !

Besides, his CD Player just got reviewed & it is a 8 K US $'s player...

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue47/emc1.htm

Thanks for the 'Thumbs Up' Bhagwan.

Manek, Krish and others , you are Most welcome to drop in ..

Thanks for the 'Thumbs Up' Bhagwan.

Manek, Krish and others , you are Most welcome to drop in ..

Arj schrieb:

Bhagwan, agree with you completely on the above. in fact the difference between dry/wet etc is in ANs system (which is an extremely resolving system) has been found because of a relative comparison between two of the ultimate CDPs. i guess it would be really unfair to go around saying the dCS is a Dry sounding source (in the absolute sense) ..it sounds dry on ANs system but may sound fantastic on some other system. in the end we are hearing the CDP differences..but it is the system we are hearing and not the CDP.

Now this is something I agree with. It is the system that we hear not the cd player.

When we compare source equipment of this calibre, the loudspeaker and the room would have the greatest effect on the resultant sound. The DCS with different speakers in a different room would elicit a very different type of opinion.

Ampnut

I surely will take you up on that offer !

And I will bring many of my jazz and classical cd's to play.

Isn't that a nice way to driving you out of the room and having the system to myself ? :-)