Mumbai Meet Tomorrow

Cool !

Thanks;

Nice gesture - I will surely be there.

Bhagwan

All the best. Have a great time.

Meesa coming

Be ready to be barraged by questions about Acoustic suspension, Alignment, Beaming, Coherence, Coloration, Diffraction, Dynamic Headroom, Harmonics, Infinite Baffle, Jitter, Lobing, Muddy, Nonlinearity, Phase Distortion, Soundstage, Timbre, Transparency,... and anything else that might spring to my mind

zhopudey schrieb:

Meesa coming Be ready to be barraged by questions about Acoustic suspension, Alignment, Beaming, Coherence, Coloration, Diffraction, Dynamic Headroom, Harmonics, Infinite Baffle, Jitter, Lobing, Muddy, Nonlinearity, Phase Distortion, Soundstage, Timbre, Transparency,... and anything else that might spring to my mind :P

I guess just Beer wont do Amp_Nut-ji will have to bring out some purana maal also.

A nice 12yr blend will ensure that you get all correct answers

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Guys, A few Mumbai audiophiles are getting together at my place tomorrow. tomorrow ( Saturday 11th Nov ) 3 pm to 6 pm. I would have loved to have you all over for dinner, but some of the group are committed for the evening. ( Its an open house from 2:30 pm to 7 pm ) My system currently consists of : Denon 2900 Universal Player Prima Luna Prologue-2 45 Watt Valve Amplifier Sonus Fabor Extrema Speakers STAX Electrostat 'Earspeakers' I also have at my place, a pair of Cadence AMAYA Electrostat speakers that belong to Deaf. A comparision between the 2 speakers ... should be interesting. Also a comparision between the Electrosta Speakers & STAX Headphone should be fun. Bhagwan has added to it all, by offering to bring along the FLYING MOLE - 100 Watt Class D Switching Amp Monoblocks. Do bring along your music. Cheers..... beer will be served ;-) ALL are welcome, PM me for my address if required.

I hope that you will invite me over when I return to Mumbai. Do PM me your address and contact details. This get-together will be real fun. Cool: electrostats! Wow! What a mid-range The Maggie MG-60 magneplanars are still fresh in my mind.

Hi Neutral,

OFCOURSE !

My invite to you some months ago, remains open .

The ball has been in yr court to take up the invite.

Ofcourse, the Cadence will move out of my place, back to Deaf, soon.

See ya when you return to / visit Mumbai.

zhopudey ...

Too many questions and we will just turn up the Volume !

zhopudey schrieb:

Meesa coming Be ready to be barraged by questions about Acoustic suspension, Alignment, Beaming, Coherence, Coloration, Diffraction, Dynamic Headroom, Harmonics, Infinite Baffle, Jitter, Lobing, Muddy, Nonlinearity, Phase Distortion, Soundstage, Timbre, Transparency,... and anything else that might spring to my mind :P

You were rather quiet;
I did not get to hear any questions from you;
What happened ? Did you not like what you heard ?
I would have loved to have addressed what ever I could have.
Next time maybe.
Regards,

BHAGWAN

Bhagwan,
Which are those speakers in your Avatar ?

abhi.pani schrieb:

Bhagwan, Which are those speakers in your Avatar ?

Rockport Technologies - Arrakis - Speaker.

Bhagwan

A noob's report of the meet.

First, I would like to thank amp_nut for inviting me over and giving me a chance to listen to some awesome gear, as well as a chance to meet so many audio experts

As I haven't had a chance to hear many systems before, I was glad to use this oppurtunity to try and understand where exactly my preferences lie; so as to help me when I (finally) put together my own rig.

We started with the Extremas, and I played some corrs, some floyd, and some pearl jam. Well, now I still don't have a proper understanding of all audiophile adjectives to describe it, so let me just say that it was a awesome experience. The first thing that hit me was the amount of bass those stand mounters were producing! Not just the amount, but the speed and tightness as well (are these the correct terms?)

After that, bhagwan changed the power cables, then switched over to the Flying Mole Amps. And finally, we brought in the Amayas (hey, I forgot - were the amayas playing off flying moles or the tubes?) We played jazz, blues, classical, reference discs, rock, pop and some more, interspersed with changing of power cables, and lots and lots of fiddling with the placement.

During the long ride home, I put together some points -

> If I'm continuing with my current taste in music, then getting something as natural (transparent? Accurate?) as the Extremas would not be a good choice (yeah right, as if I can afford them :P) While floyd and corrs seemed good enough, the pearl jam and collective soul CDs had a lot of noise. I found it quite strange, because I'd thought the Sonus Fabers would be forgiving speakers.

> I think I need to get my ears checked. This soundstaging beast is still beyond me While left and right imaging I can understand, I couldn't get the depth and height part at all. Also, while I could make out some difference between the amps, changing the cables and changing placements didn't have a noticible effect on me Or maybe this is a blessing in disguise, as I wouldn't need to bother much about placement

> I will never ever be able listen to music at such volumes. So, whatever I buy should have the ability to entertain me at much lower volumes. Do such things exist?

More rants will follow as and when I think of them

zhopudey schrieb:

A noob's report of the meet. After that, bhagwan changed the power cables, then switched over to the Flying Mole Amps. And finally, we brought in the Amayas (hey, I forgot - were the amayas playing off flying moles or the tubes?) More rants will follow as and when I think of them :D

To the best of my knowledge, we played the Amaya's only off the PL's. The FM's were packed off by then.

BHAGWAN

zhopudey schrieb:

A noob's report of the meet. I will never ever be able listen to music at such volumes. So, whatever I buy should have the ability to entertain me at much lower volumes. Do such things exist? More rants will follow as and when I think of them :D

Please do explain what you mean - I did not follow.........

Sorry !

BHAGWAN

Meaning, I should not feel the need to increase the volume to enjoy the music. ( maybe I'm contradicting myself)

To the best of my knowledge, we played the Amaya's only off the PL's. The FM's were packed off by then.

Actually, we used the Cable, amps & speakers in the following order:

1. Cardas Power cables on CD Player + Valve amp ( Prima Luna PL-2) + Sonus Faber Extrema Speakers

2. Other Power cables on CD Player + Valve amp ( Prima Luna PL-2) + Sonus Faber Extrema Speakers.

3. After this we stayed with the Cardas Power cables with the CD Player, for the rest of the day.

4. Cardas Power cables on CD Player + Flying Moles Switching Monoblocks + Other Power cables to the Monoblocks + Sonus Faber Extrema Speakers.

5. Cardas Power cables on CD Player + Flying Moles Switching Monoblocks + Other Power cables to the Monoblocks + Cadence Amaya Electrostat Speakers.


6. Cardas Power cables on CD Player + Valve amp ( Prima Luna PL-2) + Cadence Amaya Electrostat Speakers.

7. Back to 1. above.

In essence, Both amps were played on both speakers.

Was a fairly long session ... from 2:30 to almost 7 pm.

All you guys who came, you are ENCOURAGED to give your views on the forum.. Good or otherwise.

zhopudey has thrown the first stone

Thanks

zhopudey schrieb:

Meaning, I should not feel the need to increase the volume to enjoy the music. ( maybe I'm contradicting myself)

Yes Sir ! Great things are always very very subtle. If the SPL goes up, details get masked [generally]. A good set up should be in a position to resolve even at very very low levels.

BHAGWAN

Great things are always very very subtle.

VERY true.

But on the other hand, a certain volume level is also required to reproduce the Scale & Grandeur of the musical performance.

Many many years ago, I had read an argument that there is actually only ONE specific volume for realistic reproduction:
One Violin sound sound like One Violin, Not like 2 violins, and neither like Half a violin.

I am NOT a classical music buff, but the same volume argument holds for a Kick Drum or pretty much all else...

Also forgot to add....

Low level listning is best done & appreciated when the ambient noise level is at its lowest... late night, and not too many people chatting

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Great things are always very very subtle. VERY true. But on the other hand, a certain volume level is also required to reproduce the Scale & Grandeur of the musical performance. Many many years ago, I had read an argument that there is actually only ONE specific volume for realistic reproduction: One Violin sound sound like One Violin, Not like 2 violins, and neither like Half a violin. I am NOT a classical music buff, but the same volume argument holds for a Kick Drum or pretty much all else...

Very very true amp_nut...there is a certain volume which is just right...At this volume you hear the subtle details just right as well as realize the scale and grandeur of music. I have realized this many a times over. Whatever be the system I tend to pump it up to that "RIGHT" volume whenever I am in for serious listening.

May be because, the loudness of a violin or a drum set is more or less constant
Really a nice point you have put up.

Abhi.pani said:

Whatever be the system I tend to pump it up to that "RIGHT" volume whenever I am in for serious listening.

I TOTALLY agree.

To me there is ... for Each musical piece, ONE SPECIFIC volume setting when Everything sounds Just Right and the entire musical presentation snaps into place.

On the other hand, zhopudey , quantity ( Volume ) can never substitute quality... more of a bad thing, wont sound good... just more bad

bhagwan69 schrieb:

abhi.pani schrieb: Bhagwan, Which are those speakers in your Avatar ? Rockport Technologies - Arrakis - Speaker. Bhagwan

Bhagwan, have you changed your avatar in the meantime ? they look like Avalons to me ...

anyway you would know better

Yes;

They are Avalon's now. I had put the ISIS up earlier, but back to the Eidelon's now.

I am finding it difficult to get the picture to be represented in its right size. It gets squed. Looks bad that way.

BHAGWAN

Got the ISIS back. It still looks wierd. The proportion looks distorted. I do not know how to get the image to look correct.

This makes a wonderful speaker look all messed up.

I still have not auditioned it [ISIS] but I am really looking for an opportunity to do so.



BHAGWAN

Try this - I've made it a square image, so it shouldn't get squeezed.

Thank you Sir !

I appreciate it;

Bhagwan

P.S. I had to make it small - that I did. Now it has become my signature [less than 40 kb]. Nice picture. Thanks again.

Hmmm, time aligned design, I see.
Would like to read your review.
Regards,
Kamal

To me there is ... for Each musical piece, ONE SPECIFIC volume setting when Everything sounds Just Right and the entire musical presentation snaps into place. On the other hand, zhopudey , quantity ( Volume ) can never substitute quality... more of a bad thing, wont sound good... just more bad

Could'nt agree more !
I have often felt that if you turn up the volume too high ,your ear gets stunned and you cant hear the subtleties, the details in the music all that clearly as at" appropriate "volumes- maybe the ears go into a "protection mode" !
Kamal

Hi !

Yes you are right as the intensity / amplitude od sound increases the ears do go into sort of "protection mode". The are two muscles in the middle ear viz. Tensor Tympani & Stapedius, these muscles contract making the ear drum (tympanic membrane) taut and also damping the singal transmitted to the inner ear.

So there are definitely certain optimal sound volume levels where the "frequency" response & "sensitivity" of our ears is ideal.

Thanks for validating the impression, Sanjay.
But then why do people suffer hearing loss after listening on headphones at loud volumes?Does'nt the protection mode work then?
Kamal

All you guys who came, you are ENCOURAGED to give your views on the forum.. Good or otherwise

Guys, where's the review?
C'mon, share your impressions with us!
Kamal

Kamal schrieb:

Thanks for validating the impression, Sanjay. But then why do people suffer hearing loss after listening on headphones at loud volumes?Does'nt the protection mode work then? Kamal

The protection mode can only protect to a limit. Continued exposure to loud sounds leads to noise induced hearing loss which is characterised by a classical dip at 4000 Hz.

Hi everybody,

I am a bit late back to this forum and seem to have missed a really good opportunity.

Guys, pls do invite me to the next meet in Mumbai, i would love to be around to sample some delicious music.

BTW, I was in Chennai till very recently(moved to Mumbai since) and have met up with Shailesh when he came visiting. I would love to have the chance to meet up with more ppl in Mumbai.

Regards,
Pranab

Kamal schrieb:

Hmmm, time aligned design, I see. Would like to read your review. Regards, Kamal

I have not heard them;
I wonder if I ever shall.
This seems to be Dr. Patel's best work as yet.
I would never be in a position to 'afford' these wonderful speakers, 60 K is list & the room requirement is 400 sq. ft. at the least.

Maybe some time some where, God may be kind on me & I could have the chance to audition it. My fingers are X-ed.

BHAGWAN

Guys, where's the review?
C'mon Amp_nut, you organised this-are'nt you going to ensure a comprehensive review for our benefit?
Kamal

Kamal schrieb:

Guys, where's the review? C'mon Amp_nut, you organised this-are'nt you going to ensure a comprehensive review for our benefit? Kamal

So that you can hijack their thread....

Kamal said

Guys, where's the review? C'mon Amp_nut, you organised this-are'nt you going to ensure a comprehensive review for our benefit?

I TOTALLY agree with you, there has been a woeful lack of feedback on the meet at my place last week.

Let me give my excuses...

1. Since I hosted the meet, I feel I have done my bit... its for the others to put in their efforts and write

2. On Monday itself, I IMPLORED others to write in with their feedback... & share their thoughts. Only ONE person wrote in.

3. As the owner of the system, I feel my views can almost certainly not be neutral or un-biased. Hence little point me me writing a long / detailed review....

4. What I do promise is that I will ADD my opinion, or chip in at the end, with what I like about my system, and what i think its short commings are...

3. As the owner of the system, I feel my views can almost certainly not be neutral or un-biased. Hence little point me me writing a long / detailed review....

You can write about the flying moles and amayas, and bhagwan's cables.

And Kamal has to promise that he wont be taking a revenge by hijacking this thread....

abhi.pani schrieb:

And Kamal has to promise that he wont be taking a revenge by hijacking this thread.... :P

Kamal won't be interested in hijacking your thread .... just watch your clothes

zhopudey said

You can write about the flying moles and amayas, and bhagwan's cables.

No I cant !

All 3 products were pitted against my posessions ... so I will probably have a leaning towards my own... & I DID prefer my own, in each case....

I would rather elaborate after others voice their opinions...

The flying moles were to say the least interesting. Nice clean sound to be honest. I did like em. I did not hear them for long but I think they have potential with high efficiency speakers or speakers with a benign load. I did like their overall presentation better than the nuforce.

The SF speakers I must say are good. Old design but still packs a punch. They along with a very few others repose ones faith in a two way design.

The PL amp is a very nice integrated but runs out of steam with lower impedance speakers at times. Most tubes of similar power rating would with inefiicient speakers, I would think.

I wasnt around for the Amaya's so I really cant add much.

I preferred the PL + SF combo.

Manek.


Manek.

& I DID prefer my own, in each case....

so, you can write about that

zhopudey as I said in my post

I would rather elaborate after others voice their opinions...

Manek schrieb:

The flying moles were to say the least interesting. Nice clean sound to be honest. I did like em. I did not hear them for long but I think they have potential with high efficiency speakers or speakers with a benign load. I did like their overall presentation better than the nuforce. Yes, they are good to use with 'easy loads' Besides, if one bi-amps a set up, then they really shine. The SF speakers I must say are good. Old design but still packs a punch. They along with a very few others repose ones faith in a two way design. 2 way designs are great, specially if one does not want to play very low [50 Hzs] The PL amp is a very nice integrated but runs out of steam with lower impedance speakers at times. Most tubes of similar power rating would with inefiicient speakers, I would think. Yes, the PL for its price is a buster - @ 1.5 K US $'s it is a great VFM product. Sad part is that Play has stopped doing it in India. I wasnt around for the Amaya's so I really cant add much. I liked the Amaya a lot, did some aspects better that the SF's. I preferred the PL + SF combo. Same here. Manek. Manek.

Sharukh... Behram .... Switch it on.... your views, Please ?

Preferably in greater detail ?

Hello Amp Nut,

I came in pretty late, almost after half the session was over, so in reality my views don't count.

However my 2 paisa worth (Rs.0.02).

I heard the Flying moles on the SF Extremas and with one of my favourite tracks. I felt the brilliance was lacking compared to what I had heard at your place a year ago with the SF / PL amp combination, I could be wrong since human memory can't sustain even 2 minutes in an A/B comparison, one year is an awful length of time !

Since I did not get to hear the same track with the Flying mole / Cadence combination, I cannot state my opinion. Several tracks were played which appeared greek and latin to me and therefore there was no "opinion" from my side.

As regards the Cadence / PL combination, there was more air to the music than what I heard earlier. Also the dispersion angle was wider compared to a cone tweeter. From what I felt the Cadence Electrostats were indeed high on sensitivity (someone quoted 90 db) but I felt it would be even more since the LF came out beautifully unconstrained even with a 45 W amp driving it. The image however with the Cadence was not accurate, ofcourse there was little time to play with the positioning. Another reason why I preferred the Cadence was there was a slight dip in the midrange, a feature that I am used to and one which makes the music sound sweeter on the ears.

However I would have loved to have an A/B comparison between the SF Extremas and the Cadence on the same Valve amplifier but the switchover has to be really fast and on the same track, which as I realize is not possible with so many people.....oops Audiophiles around !

Behram.

My Impression / Feedback for the 100Watt Monoblock Flying Moles :

The Flying Moles (FMs) .... first heard them as stand alones amd later used them to Bi-amp my speakers, with Valves driving the HF and the Switching amps driving the LF. ( !!!! )

The FMs by themselves were Pretty good... certainly better than NADs.

The HF is nice, and the sound stage they present is VERY good AT HIGHER VOLUMES, but less defined at lower volume.

The HF is not as extended as my Valve Prima Luma Prologue-2, which uses KT-88s. ( I do Not like the EL-34 version.)

The LF resolved more, mainly because the FMs had more power. They did not have any Vice Like LF control, but did present better LF resolution than my Prima Luna... a taste that had me yearning for more.

Overall the SOUND was comparable to my existing sound in the mid freq... probably that is dominated by the speakers and / or the CD player....

The Flying Moles did not however create the Presence and feel of being there, compared to the Valve Prima Lunas.

BI AMPING: FMs for LF + PL for HF
I had GREAT hopes for the bi-amping arrangement, but though it had its good points, it was a disappointment. The LF sounded BETTER with the flying moles alone driving the speakers... odd .... ( The LF Sounded muddy... I guess its the Mid that is causeing this perceived difference )

To summarise....

The FMs are GREAT Hi Fi at bargain price Monoblocks.

The PLs privide a taste of true Audiophile capabilities.

I would have bought the FMs if I did not already have the Prima Luna. I am told the 100 Watts ( per channel ) Switching Amp Monoblock Flying Moles can be bought in India, at a VERY attractive price.

The FMs : Better Power and Good sound stage at slightly higher volume. Poorer HF & Presence. ( No the Power : 160 Watts into my 4 Ohm speakers, did NOT seem unlimited )

The Flying Moles did drive the Cadence Electrostats - 1 Ohm load at 16 KHz ( Im told ) very well, with no sign of strain.

The Prima Luna is no longer available in India, the Flying Moles are ... More Power, and a Lower price. GREAT Beeeee Killer !

Amp_Nut schrieb:

My Impression / Feedback for the 100Watt Monoblock Flying Moles : The Prima Luna is no longer available in India, the Flying Moles are ... More Power, and a Lower price. GREAT Beeeee Killer !

Sir, that Beeeeeee Killer was a great touch.
I love it !

Your views on SFE vs Cadence Amayas , gentlemen?
C'mon, lets have a more detailed , encompassing review!
Remember,a good record of these sessions adds to the knowledge of all.
Kamal