Manger Test CD ?

Oh I agree!
I remember I once borrowed a Mukesh compilation by Saregama from my brother for auditioning Virens' setup-it was unlistenable !
And yet, thru my brothers' Yamaha HT spkrs, it sounded wonderful-of course I love Mukesh & have developed the art of "listening through", irrespective of the system, if you understand what I'm trying to convey.
This is esp true of old ,beloved music.

Re recording / mastering quality, have you guys faced any problems with Indian releases of international albums. I found two CDs - one of Eric Clapton and the other of Jimi Hendrix - sounding really bad compared to my expectations. While I don't have the originals for comparisons, I definitely feel that the local music companies are messing up big time.

What I hate the most is the hyped up sound and the use of unnecessary processing effects like flange, wah-wah etc that remove the purity and naturalness of the sound. That's why I like artistes like Diana Krall as to me her recordings sound much more pure.

bhagwan69 schrieb:

Sir, You are most welcome to my place for a listen, i.e. if you stay in Mumbai. Please do p.M. me & we can fix this up. Unfortunately my amplifier does not have a 'b' connection. However, if you can get any speaker to my place, I shall be more thank happy to connect it. I too will get a chance to learn !!! Thanks, I look forward to your pm. P.S. You should get your music along. That is a must. No CRD's but... sorry !!

Will certainly contact you when I next visit my hometown, Mumbai I have lots to learn from you
Bhagwan, you say that your CD player won't play CDRs! Many folks say that using EAC to rip CDs actually improves the quality in the CDR copy version. It's sad that you can't take advantage of this.

ani schrieb:

Hi Neutral, Hayley Westenra.. the Newzealand singing wonder.. she has a wonderful voice and sings well too. Nice to see another fan of her Ani

I actually saw her on U tube by chance singing along Andrea Bocelli. After that marvellous experience, I promptly obtained her Treasure album.

Shahrukh schrieb:

Neutral schrieb: The system I listen to in Chennai doesn't have a tweeter - just the bass and mids. And the oldies and classical I listen to sound real nice. I rarely care about the recording quality. Is this the way the speaker is designed? Or is the tweeter malfunctioning? Do elaborate!

Do take a look at my profile Shahrukh It's a DIY loudspeaker: has a 12" cone and a 3" cone driver, but no driver small enough to produce the highest frequencies. As this speaker is enormous, it sounds great and soundstages well. But uppermost harmonics of instruments won't be reproduced.

I guess even Viren's single-driver won't reproduce these upper harmonics. It's a design philosophy of the engineer - a decision on which tradeoffs to make - as no speaker design is ever perfect.

Interesting!
If it sounds good to you, well, that is what is the most important!
Could you plz post a picture of the spkrs, close ups?

Neutral schrieb:

Shahrukh schrieb: Neutral schrieb: The system I listen to in Chennai doesn't have a tweeter - just the bass and mids. And the oldies and classical I listen to sound real nice. I rarely care about the recording quality. Is this the way the speaker is designed? Or is the tweeter malfunctioning? Do elaborate! Do take a look at my profile Shahrukh It's a DIY loudspeaker: has a 12" cone and a 3" cone driver, but no driver small enough to produce the highest frequencies. As this speaker is enormous, it sounds great and soundstages well. But uppermost harmonics of instruments won't be reproduced. I guess even Viren's single-driver won't reproduce these upper harmonics. It's a design philosophy of the engineer - a decision on which tradeoffs to make - as no speaker design is ever perfect.

Hmmm... never really heard something like this. Would really like to do.

I was always under the impresssion that Viren's spkrs were full range.

Neutral schrieb:

Will certainly contact you when I next visit my hometown, Mumbai I have lots to learn from you Bhagwan, you say that your CD player won't play CDRs! Many folks say that using EAC to rip CDs actually improves the quality in the CDR copy version. It's sad that you can't take advantage of this.

not true !

A copy can only be as good or worse than a CD never better. what could happen is the te redability of a CDR in a particular cd might be better than the original...

I never found the CDR to be better sounding than original.
I used EAC for grabbing the wav from the original CD and used Nero for writing. But because of some problem (may be with the software, or with the drive or with the CDR) I cant reduce the write speed to lesser than 16x. CDRs "may" sound better if written at lower speed, say @ 2x or 4x.

About a decade ago i had bought a professional stand alone cd recorder from a brand called HHB. I never have liked copies from a pc based writer.
This recorder made copies identical to the orginal bit by bit. Infact i had to use cddar (compact disc digital audio recordable) and not our regular cdrs as they were not compatible with the recorder.
Each blank would cost about rs 500. One can record only audio on these blanks and not data or video like on the regular cdrs.

At this point all other stand alone recorders used scms (serial copy management system) which prevents you from making unlimited digital clones.
But the HHB had a setting to bypass scms and one could make as many digital copies as required.

Regards
SNV

Shahrukh schrieb:

Neutral schrieb: Shahrukh schrieb: Neutral schrieb: The system I listen to in Chennai doesn't have a tweeter - just the bass and mids. And the oldies and classical I listen to sound real nice. I rarely care about the recording quality. Is this the way the speaker is designed? Or is the tweeter malfunctioning? Do elaborate! Do take a look at my profile Shahrukh It's a DIY loudspeaker: has a 12" cone and a 3" cone driver, but no driver small enough to produce the highest frequencies. As this speaker is enormous, it sounds great and soundstages well. But uppermost harmonics of instruments won't be reproduced. I guess even Viren's single-driver won't reproduce these upper harmonics. It's a design philosophy of the engineer - a decision on which tradeoffs to make - as no speaker design is ever perfect. Hmmm... never really heard something like this. Would really like to do. I was always under the impresssion that Viren's spkrs were full range.

They are !

Krish schrieb:

Shahrukh schrieb: Neutral schrieb: Shahrukh schrieb: Neutral schrieb: The system I listen to in Chennai doesn't have a tweeter - just the bass and mids. And the oldies and classical I listen to sound real nice. I rarely care about the recording quality. Is this the way the speaker is designed? Or is the tweeter malfunctioning? Do elaborate! Do take a look at my profile Shahrukh It's a DIY loudspeaker: has a 12" cone and a 3" cone driver, but no driver small enough to produce the highest frequencies. As this speaker is enormous, it sounds great and soundstages well. But uppermost harmonics of instruments won't be reproduced. I guess even Viren's single-driver won't reproduce these upper harmonics. It's a design philosophy of the engineer - a decision on which tradeoffs to make - as no speaker design is ever perfect. Hmmm... never really heard something like this. Would really like to do. I was always under the impresssion that Viren's spkrs were full range. They are !

So I presumed!

Neut, is urs a 2 way speaker / 3 way without a tweeter? It's certainly not a single driver from what I understand!

Thats one driver trying to reproduce the entire spectrum.....the drivers used (fostex, lowther, etc) are have a generic reference of being "full frequency drivers". They do roll off at higher frequencies > 10Khz and at the bottom octave or two. But then there are fans and I do have a liking for fostex over the lowthers.

Manek

guess even Viren's single-driver won't reproduce these upper harmonics

They do!
I have auditioned Virens Amp/Harmony Spkrs extensively, on several occasions with a wide variety of music & hence can vouch for their ability to do so.
Of course, at the lower end ,they go down to 40 Hz so in that sense they can't be termed full range, but they cover the usable range to which 99% of the music conforms, easily.
Their strength is the glorious midrange & highs alongwith a nice, controlled bass.
Remember, they use a pretty special driver, the Fostex (Plz google to get more details of this driver)

Arj wrote

not true ! A copy can only be as good or worse than a CD never better

I remeber reading a response from a senior Forum member that indeed copies can be better than originals provided the copy is made using black CDs.
Care to add your opinion to that?

well if i remember right even i used to think that CDRs make perfect copies to the original untill I came across the Reed Solomon Error Correction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed-Solomon_error_correction

CDs dont store directly in 0s/1s but in terms of words which are a sequence of bits hence need to be decoded. since most cd players are not able to do that without errors initial attempts at CDs were failures. it was only with this error correction in whose reading some amount of extrapolation is also used, was cd able to be launched as a medium.

thats is the reason transports DO make a difference.

Bhagwan69 had posted an excellent link on the Nova Memory player which did multiple reads untill ALL the data was correctly read..thats is when yo have a perfect lossless.

so all of us who have been making lossless copies without the multi read/error protection option may not be having the original..and if you write it in a CD you will not be having the original again (also take into account write errors by CD players)

hence my statement

A copy can only be as good or worse than a CD never better

theoretically it can SOUND better if you have a perfect copy from the original and you use a good CDR (black are supposed to be good).

but from what I know of CDs there is always losses of info right from the redbook to cd Father template and then to the mother masters. and finally from the Mother masters to the actual cds. how relevant they are and are they noticeable i really do not know.

Bang on Arj! BTW, I think we've discussed this topic atleast twice on this forum!

Nova Memory player which did multiple reads untill ALL the data was correctly read

OK,Arj.
While discussing the Nova Physics Music Player in the thread "25 Years of the CD", a senior member of the Forum had opined that Exact Audio Copy also enabled one to retrieve most of the data-your take on that?

Kamal schrieb:

Nova Memory player which did multiple reads untill ALL the data was correctly read OK,Arj. While discussing the Nova Physics Music Player in the thread "25 Years of the CD", a senior member of the Forum had opined that Exact Audio Copy also enabled one to retrieve most of the data-your take on that?

should be true. i believe EAC has a mechanism of reread during errors ie in case it does not gat a reading or gets an error reading from the cdRom it re-reads so will not be surprised if you actually get a perfect copy.

Did'nt know that!
Thanks for the input, Arj.
Is the process of making copies using EAC the same as in Nero?

well i would not be too confident of Nero..it is a cd writing software so may not rip well enough

For the purpose of ripping audio cds, EAC has no competition

Shahrukh schrieb:

Neutral schrieb: The system I listen to in Chennai doesn't have a tweeter - just the bass and mids. And the oldies and classical I listen to sound real nice. I rarely care about the recording quality. Is this the way the speaker is designed? Or is the tweeter malfunctioning? Do elaborate!

Neutral schrieb:

It's a DIY loudspeaker: has a 12" cone and a 3" cone driver, but no driver small enough to produce the highest frequencies. As this speaker is enormous, it sounds great and soundstages well. But uppermost harmonics of instruments won't be reproduced.

Shahrukh schrieb:

Neut, is urs a 2 way speaker / 3 way without a tweeter? It's certainly not a single driver from what I understand!

Hi Shahrukh,
It's a 2-way speaker:
Bass: 12" Philips studio driver
Midrange and lower treble: 3" Bolton driver
Cabinet dimensions: breadth: 42cms, depth: 42cms, height: 80cms (simply huge ) and rests on a 43cms high stand

Sorry, Kamal, don't have a digital camera, so can't post pics right now. Cabinet is made of 2cm thick plywood and is well damped with glass wool. Uses a Bolton crossover.

My subjective opinion:
Great for bass and mid range
Effortless power
Huge soundstage
Natural sound
No boom or resonance
However,
Air is subjectively less than in conventional speakers. Therefore, I conclude that higher treble harmonics were missing.

Don't have a dB meter to verify these opinions, so they remain subjective.

Re: Viren's speaker: Apologise for commenting on something I have not heard.
However, from my reading, single drivers strength is a very clean midrange (due to no crossover distortions). The tradeoff is that a single driver rolls off at the two frequency extremes. I may be wrong, but it would be unfair to expect Viren's driver to go as my low as my 12" monster in a gigantic trunk-sized cabinet Similarly, a dedicated dynamic dome tweeter (measuring 1") should definitely be faster (produce higher frequencies) than my 3" cone driver (or a large Fostex / Lowther driver).

Speaker design is all about tradeoffs. Good full-range drivers are certainly more expensive than Bolton / Philips drivers, so maybe cost is the tradeoff here?

Kamal schrieb:

Did'nt know that! Thanks for the input, Arj. Is the process of making copies using EAC the same as in Nero?

EAC is an excellent software! It will read data from the CD a few times and compare these reads to ensure that it is getting the right information. Will take much much longer than regular ripping software.

However, as far as I know, it will only make a copy on the hard drive? So, you may well need Nero / other writing software to prepare a CDR.

My understanding of commercial CD making process:
A master is used to make the CD copies. Towards the end of this master's life, it gets worn out and can no longer make good quality CD copies. So, if you get one of these 'lemons', then using EAC to write a CDR will 'really' give you a copy that is better than the original. Otherwise, the copy will be roughly the same as the original.

Unless the original CD is in a really bad state, it is very unlikely that the differences will be apparent on a casual listen. I raised the issue with Bhagwan because he is privileged to have a highly resolving system. On my 25-yr old speakers, I definitely would not be able to hear any subtle differnces

Nice, lucid explanation.
Thanks,Neut!

However, as far as I know, it will only make a copy on the hard drive? So, you may well need Nero / other writing software to prepare a CDR.

EAC Does include CD-Writing capabilities.

Check out the lowest icon on the Left Hand Side.

Also Tools / Write CD-R.

However, EAC supports only select CD Writers ( Murphy's law - my CD Writer is not supported )

EAC's expertise is in a Perfect Read... Not write. Writing is only an incidental feature.

Hence I use Nero or iTunes to Write the CD from the extracted wav file.

iTunes permits me low speed writing ( 2x ) which Nero does not...


Guys, check out EAC. Its FREE....

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de

Kamal schrieb:

Nice, lucid explanation. Thanks,Neut!

Dear Kamal,
You got your Manger Test Disc [CDR].
Did you listen to it ?
How was it ?
Liked anything ?
Comments !!!
Thanks,

Dear Bhagwan,
unfortunately,around the 13th inst(the day of your visit)one of the woofers in my speaker system developed a fault-started distorting badly at a particular frequency-hence I am unable since then to listen to any music!
Am trying to get it fixed up...
Will get back to you then.
Did you & S-I-O have a good, fruitful time during your Amritsar visit?

Yes Sir,
Amritsar was great;
Golden Tample & Wagha Border were nice to visit.
Ate some great Fish;

The audio part was the best !
I really liked the set up. Was worth it.

Thats nice.
Could you plz give some details of the setup you auditioned & of the listening experience?

I have sent a PM to you !!!
All details are there.

Saw it, thanks.
I have PM'd back with a query-plz see.

Hi Guys !

Me too ! Please forward the PMs to me as well.

Hi guys hated by wives forum, I have got 20 Manger test discs in, whoever wants one should pay Rs 1500/- for each. In God we trust, the rest in cash, is the mode of payment.
Regards Deaf.

Ok guys I am down to 17 discs. First come first served.
Deaf.