How Do I Improve Image Height

Hi Amp Nut,

Have you tried a different amp ? I seriously doubt that PL is the culprit. In my set up of PL-1 and MA GR20 speaker the singers always sits on stool tried to tilt the speakers up and the depth imaging getting inversed, ie. the kettle drums in front and worst of all Luciano was standing behind the orchestra and singing

The solution I found is to slump down on the sofa lift my leg up on a footstool,close my eyes so that you loose your ground level reference and the singers are standing up

Interesting .... Will try the new (listning) position tonight

I doubt the PL-2 is the culprit. It has provided me the best imaging.... yet in my stereo system.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hello, I am an 'image freak' and a great sound stage is Very important to me, for my listning pleasure. My system is quite basic : Denon 2900 Universal Player, Prima Luna Prologue-2 Valve amp & Sonus Fabor Extrema Speakers ( These are large 'bookshelf' speakers on stands that bring the tweeter to about 6 inches above ear level when I am sitting down ). I get a good sound stage, with Excellent depth. However the image height is somewhat low... at about Chest level. I would like the image to be higher... ideally at the height of the singer. I tried tilting the speakers upwards, by about 20 degrees.... it made almost no difference. Any suggestions ? Also any ideas on what sets the image height ? Thanks P.S: When in S'pore recently, I auditioned a Plinus amp, with some floor standing speakers from New Zealand. The image on that system was barely 6 inches off the floor, but with good lateral imaging and depth. That, I think was an extreme case of poor image height. ( No, this is NOT an attempt in Plinus bashing or any such thing )

well, I'm no expert in this area but here are my 2 paisa worth comments FWIW:-
* imaging height seems to be dependent on speaker size i.e. bigger speakers have taller images & vice-versa.
* imaging height also seems to be a function of vertical dispersion of the mid & tweeter. Most tweeters have a suckout if you sit above the tweeter height.
* From all that I have read & heard, image height also is affected by tilting the speaker backwards. I'm a bit perplexed why neither ani nor Amp_Nut had any success doing so? Are the resp tweeter vertical dispersions very narrow?
I know that my Tannoy DMT10 speakers have a 90 conical degree dispersion pattern so it doesn't matter whether you sit on the floor or on a chair the image height is always slightly above the top plate of the speaker box.
* Image height also seems to be dependent on the proximity of the drivers on the front baffle.
* I've also read that image height is dependent on x-over matching - no more that 1% mismatch produces best images height & width.

Here is an article that might shed more light on the matter:-

http://diyaudiocorner.tripod.com/imaging.htm

Dear Bombaywalla,

Thanks for your feedback & pointers.

I did read the link you suggested, but it is a general discussion on Imaging in general, rather than my Specific interest in improving my Vertical image height.

The factors that you have mentioned are tue.... but there is little that I can do with that info to Improve the imaginging, rather than change my speakers altogether, for something line the Infinity Line array !

Any tweeks that you haver to ofer ?

I should point out that I am VRY happy with the Imaging that I get laterally, and for depth.

I am looking for tweeks to enhance the Vertical Image size and height.

Hi Amp_nut,

I do not have a solution to your problem, but I can only state my experience if there is anything you can deduce from it. My floorstanding speakers were initially placed on the ground, the image I felt was just above the top plank of the cabinet and too low for my tastes.

I felt the setting too low and raised them on 11 inch stands. The tweeter now comes to around 4 inches higher than ear level when seated. The image logically should have remained on top plank height, but now it appears to be at ear level. Strange phenomenon. Does it have to do with ceiling reflections, I wonder ?

Behram.

amp nut, since size of the image is more to do with dispersion of the drivers.. the only change that comes to my mind is increasing the distance between your speakers and a higher toe in.. would you have spare on the sides for that (I presume if the toe in is around 45 deg you should be able to place the speakers much more closer to the side walls).

this might be a good trial even if you have to end up placing the speakers along the long side of the room

tilting the speakers will only displace the image higher OR improve the imaging in case you had problems with floor reflections. but since your speakers are standmounts i seriously doubt that.

do you think you could try that (ie in case you have not already done so ?)

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Dear Bombaywalla, Thanks for your feedback & pointers. I did read the link you suggested, but it is a general discussion on Imaging in general, rather than my Specific interest in improving my Vertical image height. The factors that you have mentioned are tue.... but there is little that I can do with that info to Improve the imaginging, rather than change my speakers altogether, for something line the Infinity Line array ! Any tweeks that you haver to ofer ? I should point out that I am VRY happy with the Imaging that I get laterally, and for depth. I am looking for tweeks to enhance the Vertical Image size and height.

Hi Amp_Nut,
I did understand your request re. vertical image size.
The link I posted didn't deal only w/ vertical image height but it did have a little bit of info. Agree that it was sparse.

Behram schrieb:

Hi Amp_nut, I do not have a solution to your problem, but I can only state my experience if there is anything you can deduce from it. My floorstanding speakers were initially placed on the ground, the image I felt was just above the top plank of the cabinet and too low for my tastes. I felt the setting too low and raised them on 11 inch stands. The tweeter now comes to around 4 inches higher than ear level when seated. The image logically should have remained on top plank height, but now it appears to be at ear level. Strange phenomenon. Does it have to do with ceiling reflections, I wonder ? Behram.

IMHO, raising floor-stander by 11" (nearly 1') is too much!
You have probably chnaged the operation of the speaker totally by having done so.
It would also be useful for you to get some guidance from the manuf about listener ear height w.r.t. the tweeter + the recommended tweeter height from the floor.
I know that for several speakers (esp those having multiple woofers) that the woofers couple to the floor deliberately for their bass response. Raising floor-standers by 11" totally changes the intended bass response.

Also, separation between speakers + distance from speakers to listener defines whether or not the drivers integrate at the listener's seat.
The distance between the drivers also defines how the designer adjusted the vertical dispersion of the drivers so that one driver's dispersion does not interfere w/ the other's. By raising the speakers by 11" you probably have zero/minimal output from the tweeter at your listening position hence the image height will be defined by the midrange.
Like I wrote in my original post: if you see measured results from speakers' vertical dispersion you'll notice that most of them have suckouts above & below the tweeter height. I've noticed that the above-tweeter suckout is far worse than the below-tweeter suckout.
FWIW.

Arj schrieb:

amp nut, since size of the image is more to do with dispersion of the drivers.. the only change that comes to my mind is increasing the distance between your speakers and a higher toe in.. would you have spare on the sides for that (I presume if the toe in is around 45 deg you should be able to place the speakers much more closer to the side walls). this might be a good trial even if you have to end up placing the speakers along the long side of the room tilting the speakers will only displace the image higher OR improve the imaging in case you had problems with floor reflections. but since your speakers are standmounts i seriously doubt that. do you think you could try that (ie in case you have not already done so ?)

Arj brings up a good point: the ratio between direct & reflected sound, which is controlled by speaker toe-in + distance from rear + side walls.

I believe that the larger the toe-in, the more the direct sound at your listening chair & the less the toe-in, the more the reflected sound. It might be worth adjusting this ratio as Arj recommended.

Some manuf recommend that the sound from the speakers cross in front of the listener. Others recommend that they should cross behind the listener. This is the same thing as having an equilateral triangle between the listener & speakers OR having an isosceles triangle.
Do you know what the recommendation is for your speakers?

A tweak that I know helped a lot in my case was to use ASC Tube Traps. I also had a mid-bass issue w/ the room & so Tube Traps were needed for more than 1 reason in my case. Trapping & adjusting the 1st reflection point of the speaker from the wall in front of the speaker helped w/ imaging & soundstage. However using Tube Traps is *not* a WAF-friendly solution!
People have achieved pretty good results w/ bookshelves/CD racks & potted plants (palm tree/ficus tree) to provide diffusion & absorption w/ WAF-friendly material.

I have a feeling that you have to play w/
* speaker separation
* toe-in
* distance to listening chair
* room treatments
* speaker tilting
* & even x-over parts upgrade

My 2 paisa worth.

Hi,

I had tried to increase the height of the image using a stand mount as well as a floorstanding speaker and failed.
Increasing the height of the speaker or reducing the height of your sitting position did not make any appreciable change in height of image.

Tilting the speakers backwards produced totaly unpredictable results like I had mentioned in earlier post.

Increasing in height of speaker did not increase the soundstage height.

Changing the amp made a big difference, the Perreaux Radiance and Onkyo Integra 99xx could produce a more realistic height. Primaluna PL1 never went more than a few inches above the floorstander ie. about 1m from the floor.

If you all are having a copy of Roger Waters "Amused to Death" CD i think it would be intersting to share with you the following.

1. The sound from the sides (man talking, crowd etc) are about 3 feet heigher than the front image using PL1 through Perreaux the image was almost at the same height as front image.
2. The side images are formed on either sides almost at your sitting plane on both amps.
3. If you squat on the floor or increase the height of the speakers the side image moves well forward, almost goes half the distance between you and the speakers
4. Integra never got the side images right

Warm regards

Anil

Amused to Death" CD

Thanks for reminding me about one of my FAV CDs... ( I am a Floyd fan... and have been for more than 25 years .... )

Just had a suuuperb session

This CD is recorded using QSound.... simply superb.... Doug Sax has mastered it.

I also love The "A Momentary Lapse Of Reason" by the other fraction of Floyd.. This uses Spherical Sound...

Dogs of War sounds SO congested on humble systems, but BLOSSOMS on a good Fi...

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Thanks for reminding me about one of my FAV CDs... ( I am a Floyd fan... and have been for more than 25 years .... )

to The music lovers living in that era Jazz and Rock were very very un audiophile especially the Phsychadelic Rock by PF etc. Am sure they do double turns in their graves at the thought of reviewers using PF etc for audiophile systems.

Wonder if Hip Hop would be the audiophile music of the future ! the thought may be blasphemeous..but practically is a possibility.

[quote="Amp_Nut"]
Amused to Death" CD


Thanks for reminding me about one of my FAV CDs... ( I am a Floyd fan... and have been for more than 25 years .... )

[/quote]

am a big Floyd fan too..
i feel that their last album, Divison Bell' is their best one.
I just lose myself in the music everytime i hear it.

NOthing to describe it.

Am sure they do double turns in their graves at the thought of reviewers using PF etc for audiophile systems.

Hey, Most of the Floyd guys are VERY much around !

David Gilmore has just released his new album after 20+ years !

Only Barrett moved on to the Great Big Gig In The Sky, on July 7, at the age of 60. Barrett left Pink Floyd in 1968.

As JA concludes the latest S'phile news letter ....

" Shine On You Crazy Diamonds ! "

Hey I am one myself....the Wall is my favourite. have both the original pressing as well as the one sung by various and released by Waters during the Berlin Wall ceremony.

... And By "They" I meant by the folks frowning on PF as not "Music"

Hi Amp Nut,

Glad that I was instrumental in your nostalgic PF evening

David Gilmor's "On an Island" is a good one exp for PF fans. If you like Eric Clapton his latest album "Back Home Again" is also worth lsitening because they both sounded like two content souls enjoying their music that msut be very close to their heart.

Amp Nut what about the imaging you were getting on Amused to Death ? You didnt mention anthing about it, asked because I would like to find out how they compare to mine.

Warm regards

Anil

I envy U, ani. You have Excellent Vertical imaging.

On the CD, I get a VEY wide image, WAY beyond the speakers, but all of it is at the same height.... except the plane at the end of 6 ( or is it 7 ). .... Its about 6 feet above and behind my head !

Hey I am one myself....the Wall is my favourite. ... And By "They" I meant by the folks frowning on PF as not "Music"

Thanks Amp Nut, I still would like the front image at least 6" inch above GR 20 top level. That would make the singers stand up

Glad to have PF fans around

Warm regards

Anil

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hello, I am an 'image freak' and a great sound stage is Very important to me, for my listning pleasure. My system is quite basic : Denon 2900 Universal Player, Prima Luna Prologue-2 Valve amp & Sonus Fabor Extrema Speakers ( These are large 'bookshelf' speakers on stands that bring the tweeter to about 6 inches above ear level when I am sitting down ). I get a good sound stage, with Excellent depth. However the image height is somewhat low... at about Chest level. I would like the image to be higher... ideally at the height of the singer. I tried tilting the speakers upwards, by about 20 degrees.... it made almost no difference. Any suggestions ? Also any ideas on what sets the image height ? Thanks P.S: When in S'pore recently, I auditioned a Plinus amp, with some floor standing speakers from New Zealand. The image on that system was barely 6 inches off the floor, but with good lateral imaging and depth. That, I think was an extreme case of poor image height. ( No, this is NOT an attempt in Plinus bashing or any such thing )

Amp_Nut,
I had to dig this thread out of the depth of Mordor!
I was reading posts on another forum & guess which thread I stumbled upon????

"What affects soundstage height??"

I was reminded of your thread & so I've cut & pasted some of the replies below:-

Try some overhead damping or diffusors. I use RPG skylines and could not be happier with imaging and height. This was a great room tweak. My room only has about 8 foot ceilings, once I added the RPG's the height of the image raised immensely.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life
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Posted by layman on September 09, 2006 at 17:14:30
I think that you hit on something crucial...inverted geometry (woofer over tweeter) is used (by speaker designers) to lobe the directivity of the speaker upward (thus raising the apparent soundstage height). This lobing is similar to the way the directivity of light can be controlled (with mirror position) in a flashlight.
The standard tweeter over woofer configuration causing the speaker's output to lobe down toward the floor (lowering the apparent soundstage height).

Other factors that influence the perception of soundstage height include the position of the drivers in the cabinet (in my experience the higher the drivers, the higher the soundstage) as well as the where the drivers are aimed. It's true that tilting a speaker backward aims its drivers upwards, thus raising apparent soundstage height.

Similary, some speakers are designed so that the drivers always face upward (Focal Profile series) and these speakers have a higher soundstage than those with standard foward facing drivers.

I do not believe that the importance of the crossover and driver positions can be overestimated when it comes to creating the illusion of soundstage height.

Moreover, I do not believe that early reflections or room standing waves affect the psycho-acoustic perception of soundstage height to any great degree (so there are many in this thread with whom I disagree).
-----



1) Speakers. They'll need to image well. I won't go into the reasons for that as you've shown that they CAN.
2) Room Interaction. This is a biggie. Reflections in the room can kill the imaging. There is a fine line between when reflections switch from killing the image to adding ambiance. I forget but I think the time difference is measured in milliseconds.

3) Electronics. Let me tell you a story. I was evaluating electronics once and a Nakamichi CD player plugged into a Goldmund SRI was beat by a Linn Classik. Why? Because the CD player in the Linn could get the image height whereas the NAK could not. The best sound, as one might guess, was the Linn into the Goldmund SRI. The Goldmund has a higher resolution which allows for more low level spacial cues to come through. The NAK just has a flat soundstage on the vertical plane. Thanks for the reminder by the way. I had forgotten why I use the Linn. The NAK has better bass but I put soundstage WAY up on the priority list. I'm still looking for an affordable replacement for the Linn so that I can use the Linn in the bedroom as a mini system.

For reference, the Goldmund has happily been replaced by a Bryston B100 SST and I still have the Linn. I may take home an NAD 542 to see if it can match the CDP in the Linn classik. Folks always remind me that the Linn CDP could have measured better in Stereophile but one cannot argue with the sound from it. Stereophile used the pre-outs where I use the tape out. Perhaps there is a significant difference there.

Bill
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over time I've found that "layman" & I agree on many things when it comes to speakers. No surprise here, he provides the most illuminating answer
Note that he mentioned quality & type of x-over as I did!!

Hello Bombaywalla,

Thanks for the TONS of trouble that you have taken.

Your post and the revival of this thread is MOST timely.

Last weekend, I had a few audiophiles who dropped in.

Deaf & SWITCH-IT-ON from this forum set up my speakers . They had earlier been set up quickly by SWITCH-IT-ON.

This time they spent almost half an hour tweaking the position.

Yes, I can confirm 'deaf's' claim that he has the best ears around !

The speakers have now "disappeared completely".

To boot, the image height has also increased by about a foot. Thge sound of the system has changed SIGNIFICANTLY with far better sound staging. It is better defined though the image depth, I suspect, has reduced a bit.

The change in sound quality has CERTAINLY more than a change in the inter-connects or speaker cables.

Deaf - may be you should offer speaker positioning as a paid service. I would certainly opt for it as it is a better and cheaper upgrade than spending on inter-connects.

Incidentally, over the week end, I also had the good fortune to try out the Flying Mole Switching Amplifier Monoblocks. These little boxes, way almost nothing (about 600 grams each)and deliver 100 watts into 8 Ohms or 160 watts x 4 Ohms.

All in all, a GREAT WEEK END that has significantly enhanced not only the sound of my system but also given me first hand experience of some switching amplifiers.

Bombaywalla - THANKS once again for all your efforts in posting on this topic.

Based on what has been said, I suspect that my CD player probably will change the image height.

I will replace my CD player tonight with my non-audophile quality DVD player to see if that has any effect (degrades) on the image height.

Cheers

The Goldmund has a higher resolution which allows for more low level spacial cues to come through

I think this may be a critical point.

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hello Bombaywalla, Thanks for the TONS of trouble that you have taken. Your post and the revival of this thread is MOST timely. Last weekend, I had a few audiophiles who dropped in. Deaf & SWITCH-IT-ON from this forum set up my speakers . They had earlier been set up quickly by SWITCH-IT-ON. This time they spent almost half an hour tweaking the position. Yes, I can confirm 'deaf's' claim that he has the best ears around ! The speakers have now "disappeared completely". To boot, the image height has also increased by about a foot. Thge sound of the system has changed SIGNIFICANTLY with far better sound staging. It is better defined though the image depth, I suspect, has reduced a bit. The change in sound quality has CERTAINLY more than a change in the inter-connects or speaker cables. Deaf - may be you should offer speaker positioning as a paid service. I would certainly opt for it as it is a better and cheaper upgrade than spending on inter-connects. Incidentally, over the week end, I also had the good fortune to try out the Flying Mole Switching Amplifier Monoblocks. These little boxes, way almost nothing (about 600 grams each)and deliver 100 watts into 8 Ohms or 160 watts x 4 Ohms. All in all, a GREAT WEEK END that has significantly enhanced not only the sound of my system but also given me first hand experience of some switching amplifiers. Bombaywalla - THANKS once again for all your efforts in posting on this topic. Based on what has been said, I suspect that my CD player probably will change the image height. I will replace my CD player tonight with my non-audophile quality DVD player to see if that has any effect (degrades) on the image height. Cheers :prost

welcome, Amp_Nut!
yes, Deaf does have very good ears, doesn't he?
indeed, speaker positioning is something we all under-estimate. It is painful to do esp. if you are all by yourself because things begin to sound the same when you have been testing the same music over & over again at diff speaker positions. It certainly helps to have friends present.
Good to read that you have gained overall.

I'd like to describe my situ
I have book stand mount speakers which are approx 2+ meters from my listening position and a little less apart.
When I have them toed in a bit I do get a more pinpointed kind of effect which is beautiful. Recently I got them to fire straight on without any toe in at all and that is producing a 'wall of sound' effect which I feel has definitely widened the sound stage but in my mind incresed the height as well. Currently that's the way I'm enjoying it.

Jeeves schrieb:

I'd like to describe my situ I have book stand mount speakers which are approx 2+ meters from my listening position and a little less apart. When I have them toed in a bit I do get a more pinpointed kind of effect which is beautiful. Recently I got them to fire straight on without any toe in at all and that is producing a 'wall of sound' effect which I feel has definitely widened the sound stage but in my mind incresed the height as well. Currently that's the way I'm enjoying it.

well, it looks like you go direct sound when you had them toed in i.e. less effect of the walls (reflected sound).
when they are firing straight, they interact more w/ the wall & you are getting direct + more reflected sound to your ears.
is the sound smeared - even a little? one has to be careful removing the toe-in beacause the wall effect, if not sync'd carefully w/ the direct sound, will smear the overall sound. There are some speakers that the manuf suggest zero toe-in.
is the wall of sound more 2-D than 3-D? typically this is what happens - you get a wider soundstage at the cost of depth.

Yes Bombaywalla its less 3D for sure but not smeared in the least bit. I am liking this for the time being. And its better listening for others in the room too.

I really think its everything to do with the speaker size itself to a very large extent, I have used smaller floor-standers and bookshelves in my room and had the image height just above the tweeter max.

Now im using a huge floorstanding in my room and hell the first time I put it on I was confused where mary black was singing from and then after about 30 seconds I realized she close to 5.5-6ft high (I'm used to a 3.5-4ft height), the sheer size of image, soundstage, attack is a different league all together.


Regards,

Satyam.

Yup dude, with my complete signature neutrality thrown in too. .It is a different trip, isn't it? .
Deaf.

Hi !

Speaker positioning & room acoustics is so important that Robert Harley in his (thick & big) book "The Complete Guide to High End Audio" has devoted the largest chapter to this subject. He maintains that room is another component in the chain.

For vertical imaging the reflections from the floor & ceiling need to be played with. Try damping the reflections from the floor (or enhancing them if they are already too damped). You could also try tilting the speakers the other way that is forwards - the image could move up with the speakers as fulcrum point.

Let us know if that helps.

Regards

Sanjay

Hi Sanjay,

Thanks for your suggestions.

I have tried speaker tilt.... dosent help.

Have also tried putting / removing a floor carpet ... no diff.

I have been suggested a carpet behind my listning position, on the wall that is about 9 inches behind my head... Not yet tried that.

amp_nut, have you tried playing around with your seating height ? ie different chairs ?

Ear height along with Vertical+Horizondal dispersion might have a lot. I prefer having to avoid direct room reflections by means of seating and toeng in/up of speakers.. But no way of controlling back waves etc but those should be occuring only in the lower registers (I think so ..)

Once you get your solution, am sure it is going to be very interesting for all of us !

Hi Arj,

Thanks for your message.

The stereo system is in the living room, and the listning position is the centre of the couch.

I think I will be PUSHING my luck with my spouse if I changed the sofa to Chairs !

Incidentally, I heard some VERY interesting systems on Sunday.

Couple of those seemed to have Excessive height ! WOW !

Tell us Amp nut!

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Incidentally, I heard some VERY interesting systems on Sunday. Couple of those seemed to have Excessive height ! WOW ! :.

tell us, tell us, Amp_Nut!!
Inquiring minds would like to know!