Cadence and Jochen Semler

Autor

Beitrag

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#1 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 12:48

Hi All,

First of all thank you very much Jochen for having me over (not to mention picking me up and droppingme back to Electronic City)

It just bowled me over to see you take such an interest in audio and more over advertise and market an Indian brand.
An indian brand that till today i had only heard people speaking in a most revered tone with high accolades being showered upon it.

To those who are not acquainted with cadence i would simply advise you to give it a patient listen at the first opportunity you get.

This being hte first time i was heargin a tube amp and also hybrid speakers(electrostats) i was very much excited to say the least.
while i was not carrying any CDs

as this visit was unplanned.

however, my worries were unfounded as it turned out that Jochen being much senior to me had a smashing collection.

The amplifier being a Class A tube amp from cadence and the source being a very hefty and beefy lookin fellow from pioneer(bigger than yours Mohan

) we decided to start with the electrostats, the AVITAs....

oh wow!..these speakers were just mesmersised me with their highs nad beautiful vocals..i just fogot all sense of time and spent over 2 hours with these wonderful speakers..

And with Jochen's brilliant CD collection i decided to explore some new music and Jochen took me through some of the best Jazz i had heard in my very limited exposure in this genre...

i was just completely taken over by the entire experience ...the listening room too was so good and quiet!...complelty different form the noisy world in which i listen to music back home..

We then decided to switch to the Aritas...
let me tell u that these are probabbly the best bookshelves i have heard so far..the soundstagein..imagin..and the fact that the speakers were just dissolving into the soundstage ...

I would like to add to this post once i get home...
right now i need to go catch my bus back home!

Sachi

abhi.pani
Inventar

#2 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 12:59

Hey hey Sachi.........Enjoyed naa...I knew it..

abhi.pani
Inventar

#3 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 13:00

And yes that CDP was real something...a BOMB..

What a finish...I didnt even dare lifting it

The tray was soooooo smooth and se*y...
And yes the ambience...just perfect for serious music.
Noise floor couldnt be lower than that.

It just bowled me over to see you take such an interest in audio and more over advertise and market an Indian brand.

Same here dude...the amount of interest he takes in demonstrating audio is mindblowing.

[Beitrag von abhi.pani am 31. Aug 2006, 13:04 bearbeitet]

square_wave
Inventar

#4 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 13:40

I had the same feeling when I listened to the hybrids from cadence for the first time. The mids and highs from the panels are mesmerizing to say the least. It is a wonder how they leave you with the music and you forget the electronics. But please bear in mind the tube amp and the perfect listening room which makes an enormous difference to what you heard. I do not have much experience with hybrid speakers but whenever I have heard them, I have been bowled over.

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#5 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 15:11

Savyasaachi schrieb:

Hi All,

First of all thank you very much Jochen for having me over (not to mention picking me up and droppingme back to Electronic City)

Sachi

a-l-r-i-g-h-t!!!

looks like you guys are getting a 101 on vacuum tube amps! welcome to the world of tubes!

it's a mesmerizing world indeed where the possibilities are nearly endless (tube rolling) & where the sound (if done right) imparts the correct (IMHO) emotions to the music.
These days s.s. electronics has made some significant strides & some of the s.s gear done right has a sound that rivals vacuum tubes.
However, vacuum tubes being linear amplification devices still have the overall edge over s.s. IMHO.
Jochen is indeed a very fine fellow & it is Cadence's advantage to have him as their dealer in BLR. I hope that they realize this!

Manek
Inventar

#6 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 15:43

Saachi...you have just discovered the tip of the iceberg my friend....hear them some more and see how the avitas and aritas draw you in.....Yes the trick is in the class A amp as much as it is in the speakers.

Jochen is a swell guy.....extremely passionate about his music and a very nice listening environment with hardware to match....(read envy...) ;), deadly combination ! He will definately do justice to the brand.

Manek.

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#7 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 16:32

Hi Sachi,

I am glad that it was an eventful afternoon for you. Hope you could catch your 4.30 bus to get home before the terrible rush from Electronics City starts. I am also very pleased that you really liked the Cadence system. But I am even more glad that I was able to present you with some Jazz music that did not make you get up and leave immediatly

Once you are in US you will definetly come across a lot of that music and perhaps you will even really love it one day. A good starter to become used to this music is actually a genre called West Coast Jazz. Usually very easy to digest and pleasant to listen to. Art Pepper, Stan Getz (both we listened to today) or Dave Brubeck, Chet Baker and Gerry Mulligan are perhaps the most popular exponents of that genre and brilliant musicians too. Interesting to see that most West Coast guys are white, whereas in the harder and perhaps more chaotic East Coast Jazz (also known as Bebob and Hardbob) you'll find more musicians from the black community. Exeptions are of course there. This refers all to the 1950s when this music was on the hight of popularity. Nowadays jazz can not be categorized like that anymore. Hope you come across some beautiful music over there and I wish you all the best for your stay in US.
Jochen

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#8 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 18:00

Seems to me that the Cadence Electrostat speakers really sing, with Valve amplication...

Is that correct ?

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#9 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 18:06

Bombaywalla said :

welcome to the world of tubes! it's a mesmerizing world indeed where the possibilities are nearly endless (tube rolling) & where the sound (if done right) imparts the correct (IMHO) emotions to the music.
These days s.s. electronics has made some significant strides & some of the s.s gear done right has a sound that rivals vacuum tubes.

Hi Bombaywalla, I share your enthu for tubes.

Given the wide range of equipment that you have heard, I would be praticularly interested in getting recommendadtions on High Powered Tube amplification that you have personally heard, and can deliver 70+ watts, of audiophile quality power.

I use rather inefficient speakers, and a High powered Tube amp is certainly on my shopping (wish) list.

The Cadence 845 based hybrid power amp sounds Great in a system I have heard, but the price is out of reach....

Bobbaywalla & other... yr suggestions please ?

Thanks

myriad
Ist häufiger hier

#10 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 18:20

Amp Nut wrote:

[Seems to me that the Cadence Electrostat speakers really sing, with Valve amplication]

Add a vinyl rig with this combo and you will be bowled over.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#11 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 18:36

CONGRATS on yr 100th posting, myriad

Thanks for sharing with this group

Cheers !

Arj
Inventar

#12 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 18:43

Jadis is a another beauty and perhaps my favourite in case in I move to tubes... In france Audiomat is very popular among Jazz lovers and so is Kora in the slightly affordable segment.

Vincent (german) are pretty good especially their Monoblocks, but their OEM sells their models much much cheaper under the brand SPARK and SHENG YA. both available at 1/2 th price and lower in Singapore and HK.

I thought the Manleys are rather nice and so are the Carys. although have very little hearing experience with them.

Pathos has some beauties which sound good and punch well also.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#13 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 18:55

Hi Arj,

Thanks for the pointers.

I have heard the Jadis, and did not like the sound, though it could have been the rest of the system that I did not like. The Entire system was unknown to me, so I cant really put down the amp.

Which of the other would deliver 70+ Watts, and reasonably

priced ?

Yeah, I have been craving to hear som 100 Watt OTLs and the Manleys...

Are the powerful Pathos Hybrids with a SS output stage ?

My focus is on 70+ tube watts

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#14 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 20:07

bombaywalla schrieb:

a-l-r-i-g-h-t!!!

looks like you guys are getting a 101 on vacuum tube amps! welcome to the world of tubes!

This was definitely a new and pleasant experience for me..Thoroughly enjoyed the 3 and odd hours i spent at Jochen's place...

I was extremely apprehensive about how the system would sound considering the fact that i was listening to Tubes for the first time and also the hybrids...

Boy was a wrong to doubt them..

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#15 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 20:16

Manek schrieb:

:D

Saachi...you have just discovered the tip of the iceberg my friend....hear them some more and see how the avitas and aritas draw you in.....Yes the trick is in the class A amp as much as it is in the speakers.

Jochen is a swell guy.....extremely passionate about his music and a very nice listening environment with hardware to match....(read envy...) ;), deadly combination ! He will definately do justice to the brand.

Manek.

Hi Manek,

Seriously!..i complelety lost track of time...i was reluctant to get up and say.."alrite..we'll wrap it up then!.."
I just wanted to sit there and listen and listen and listen...

I too agree taht the electronics played a considerable role in the overall presentation.

I personally think that the Aritas are exceptional for their price.better than the Dynaudio 52..especially for Jazz, Classical and classic rock..

I just happened to be free and decided what the hell i might not get to hear Cadence for another two years at the very least and decided to give Jochen a call..

Am gald that i did else i would have missed out on a wonderful opportunity to listen to some beautiful equipment and more importantly some great pieces of music from some really brilliant artists..

Savyasaachi
Inventar

#16 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 20:27

goolimangala schrieb:

Hi jochen,

thanks again for a wonderful afternoon...
i really appreciate you guiding me through some of teh best Jazz i have heard in my very limited exposure to this genre...
You will certainly get a lot more mals from me asking for recommendations on the same.

Wil definietly have a listen to the music u have highlighted.
Stan Getz and Oscar Peterson were my favourite among what we heard today.

the number by Rebecca Pidgeon held me spellbound...
The Swedish Opera number too was amazing...

One thing that most of us lose sight of is that in this hobby/passion of ours we tend to forget about the actual reason we are into this..the MUSIC..we get so involved in demoing this equipment against the otehr that most of us never get to listen to new artists and new genres...

Today was an eyeopner in the sense that i realised that i can really enjoy Jazz...but only the right jazz..the one that appeals to me..for ex..i never did really like Miles Davis..Then again music too is a personal choice..just like any audio compoenent u buy!..probably even more so..!

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#17 erstellt: 31. Aug 2006, 20:28

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Bombaywalla said :

Hi Bombaywalla, I share your enthu for tubes.

Given the wide range of equipment that you have heard, I would be praticularly interested in getting recommendadtions on High Powered Tube amplification that you have personally heard, and can deliver 70+ watts, of audiophile quality power.

I use rather inefficient speakers, and a High powered Tube amp is certainly on my shopping (wish) list.

The Cadence 845 based hybrid power amp sounds Great in a system I have heard, but the price is out of reach....

Bombaywalla & other... yr suggestions please ?

Thanks

Amp_Nut,
Some of the recommendations made by Arjun are indeed good ones.
Jadis - very pretty to look at but the bass can be a bit fatty. The Defy Mk4 is the best rendition of that superbly well-known amp. However, Jadis' fame is the mid & the highs. The bass could be better.
Pathos - the Classis One Mk2 is 60-65W/ch in stereo mode but can be bridged to mono & yields 130W/ch. yes, these are tube input & s.s (MOS) output stage.
Anthem - these guys are out-of-biz now (I think!) but they used to be the affordable version of Sonic Frontiers. I can't remember the model # but their sound was very good esp. so after modifying some of the guts. Still a very good buy in the used market.
Antique Sound Labs (China) - several models that are in the 50-60W/ch range & 2 models in the 100W+/ch range. One is the "Hurricanes" & the other is "Monsoon 100DT" (i think!).
Rogue Audio M120, M150 - these have a very American sound. I'd call it "robust". These are very popular here as they give very good sound for the money. These are available in regular & "Magnum" models.
Jolida hybrid amps 1301, 1501. These are very affordable & have very good sound for the money. Their fully-tube amps are 60W/ch max. I have 1 of these & they can drive my 89dB speakers just fine.
BAT VK60 - 60W/ch but if you can get 2 then each can be bridged to 120W/ch & used as a monoblock. I do not like the BAT sound as it is a bit dark to me. However, many like the sound. To each his own.
These are some of the affordable brands. Hope that this helps some.

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#18 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 03:14

"I use rather inefficient speakers, and a High powered Tube amp is certainly on my shopping (wish) list."

Hi Amp Nut,

I don't know how in efficient your speakers are, but if you are from Bangalore, please come along and I will show you how a 23 Watt amp can drive a 86 db/8 ohm speaker. I myself always thought that speakers with a senitivity of less than 90 db are inefficient and need really powerful amps, till that day when I heard Cadence equipment 10 years ago.

Hope to meet you soon.
Jochen

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#19 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 03:23

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Arj,

Which of the other would deliver 70+ Watts, and reasonably

priced ?

:)

NONE

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#20 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 04:28

I don't know how in efficient your speakers are, but if you are from Bangalore, please come along and I will show you how a 23 Watt amp can drive a 86 db/8 ohm speaker. I myself always thought that speakers with a senitivity of less than 90 db are inefficient and need really powerful amps, till that day when I heard Cadence equipment 10 years ago.

Hope to meet you soon.
Jochen

Hi Jochem,

Thanks for your invite. I unfortunately live in Mumbai, or would have certainly taken you up on your offer.

Maybe when I am next in Blore ....

Likewise if you ever visit Mumbai, you are welcome to my place.

Yes, I have heard the Cadence speakers, and find them VERY nice.

I am using Sonus Fabor Extrema speakers (88dB), with a Prima Luna Prologue-2 amplifier that puts out 45 Watts [ ALL tube ... No hybrid

]

My listning room is fairly large 25 feet x 14 feet x 12 feet height.

I listen to Rock, Mary Black, Patricia Barber, Jan Ian etc at moderate to loud listning levels.

I feel often feel the need for more power.... more for headroom, than continious drive.

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#21 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 04:33

[quote="Savyasaachi
Hi Manek,

Seriously!..i complelety lost track of time...i was reluctant to get up and say.."alrite..we'll wrap it up then!.."
I just wanted to sit there and listen and listen and listen...

I too agree taht the electronics played a considerable role in the overall presentation.

I personally think that the Aritas are exceptional for their price.better than the Dynaudio 52..especially for Jazz, Classical and classic rock..

I just happened to be free and decided what the hell i might not get to hear Cadence for another two years at the very least and decided to give Jochen a call..

Am gald that i did else i would have missed out on a wonderful opportunity to listen to some beautiful equipment and more importantly some great pieces of music from some really brilliant artists..[/quote]

Hi Sachi,
You may please postpone your flight and come along as often as you want and listen as long as you want and be in heaven

.... till a powerfailure wakes you up from a beautiful dream and brings you back to Bangalore's reality

goolimangala
Hat sich gelöscht

#22 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 04:41

Amp_Nut schrieb:

People say that ClassA creates the magic and those amps only are able to drive insensitve speakers as well. I would definetly like to listen to your system in your room. Looks to me like quite a good match and perfect setup....only I practically never come to Mumbai

But let's meet here

Jochen

SuhasG
Ist häufiger hier

#23 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 06:26

Savyasaachi schrieb:

I personally think that the Aritas are exceptional for their price.better than the Dynaudio 52..especially for Jazz, Classical and classic rock..

That's exactly what happened to me when I auditioned ARITAs at Mahendra Dave's place ( I love Indian & Wester Classical as well as Jazz) and I immdtly signed on the dotted line.. Yes I am getting:

1> Cadence ARITA with Candence Stands
2> Jolida JD 1501 RC (100 wpc, valve + MOSFET Hybrid)
3> VDH IC and speaker cables . Cadence uses the same brand for spearker internal wiring.
4> Pioneer DVDP

SUhas

Manek
Inventar

#24 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 06:55

Sachi,

You talk of hearing jazz, classic rock on the aritas....hear some symphonic music....be prepared to get surprised again !

Manek.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#25 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 07:29

Bombaywalla said:

Jolida hybrid amps 1301, 1501. These are very affordable & have very good sound for the money. Their fully-tube amps are 60W/ch max. I have 1 of these & they can drive my 89dB speakers just fine.

Which speakers are you driving with the 60 Watt Jolidas ?

How large is your room ?

Thanks

screamgigi
Stammgast

#26 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 07:49

For all practical consideration, my thumb rule for watts would be:

SE= 7~8 watts max. DHT 300B, triode strapped SE EL34 etc.
Exception would be SE 845 but that is a different beast. Other DHT’s like 45, 2A3 or 10Y are too underpowered for Indian listening environment.

Push Pull = 15~18 watts max preferably a triode strapped Class A EL34/KT66 or EL37. This is the propah audiophile choice

I would personally prefer a Class AB1 Push Pull biased such that the first few watts are Class A. My device of choice would be PP Pentode or Tetrode in UL or Triode connection.

If you are looking for more than 30 watts than consider moving up (or down!) to SS. Although a pair of KT88/6550 can deliver more than 30 watts in Class A easily, but IMHO a KT88 is like a 2N3055 BJT. You may like or dislike the sound.

Unless exceptionally well made with very high quality ironware and components, a high-powered tube amp will sound like a PA rig. And it wont be cheap either.

Now the question of speaker sensitivity wrt tube amp such as the cadence 30 watter. From practical experience I can say that an 88dB speaker should not pose a problem to a 30-watt tube amp. Rather it will sound nicer and more balanced than a FR 96dB speaker. Inefficient speakers are a problem only if you have less than 3~4 watts. Again this is IMHO. During the years I used to listen to loud heavy metal, my amp was a PP EL34 driving a pair of Sonodyne FS with 12” woofers. Watts were never a problem.

Your experience may vary depending upon the situation.

/diving back to the trenches to avoid incoming fire.

myriad
Ist häufiger hier

#27 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 09:06

Amp_Nut schrieb:

CONGRATS on yr 100th posting, myriad

Thanks for sharing with this group

Cheers ! :prost

Thanks Amp Nut and everyone else in this forum

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#28 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 09:09

/diving back to the trenches to avoid incoming fire.

Hey DONT !

Your feedback and views are Much appreciated.... particularly:

a high-powered tube amp will sound like a PA rig. And it wont be cheap either.

Your primer on the various Tubes and their max o/p power also was very nice as a recap.

I am currently using an amp that has KT88s in an Ultra Linear pentode config... putting out 45 Watts.

Yup... My initial request for 70+ Watts of Tube power was to explore Outside the conventional Power envelope of a Pair of Tubes in Push Pull AB.

Unison Research has an interesting amp that uses 3 Class A biased output tubes, each feeding its own winding... their output power is summed in the o/p transformer.

Your comments on the 845 have me scratching my head. I have heard the Cadence based 845 amp and its LOVELY.... Nothing like a 3055 based amp... & I have been tinkering will all sorts of SS Amps for more than 25 years ...

Would love to hear any other 845 based amp...
Is The Anybody Out There ?

( Pink Floyd

)

Arj
Inventar

#29 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 10:04

bombaywalla schrieb:

Bombaywalla said :

Jadis - very pretty to look at but the bass can be a bit fatty. The Defy Mk4 is the best rendition of that superbly well-known amp. However, Jadis' fame is the mid & the highs. The bass could be better.

Thats quite true..in fact you can generalise this to most french amps and speakers. the treble will be sweet the mids very very good..but somewayo the other when compaed with American/german components in the same range almost always lacking in bass..it is either a bit bloated (where the woofer gives up) or dry and thin (where it does not even try)

but the mids/highs usually make up for it ..of course depends on the taste for music

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#30 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 11:21

Abhi Pani wrote :

And yes that CDP was real something...a BOMB..
What a finish...I didnt even dare lifting it

Then why do you keep fiddling with my CDP always...You don't even dare... BTW what model is it???

Abhi Pani wrote :

The tray was soooooo smooth and se*y...

Dude this is the beauty of well built CDP's the tray is also made of alimunium unlike cheap flogging plastic in low end and mid end CDP's and the pleasure of loading a CD is great..

abhi.pani
Inventar

#31 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 12:05

Then why do you keep fiddling with my CDP always...You don't even dare.

Look who is talking...you yourself invite everyone to try and lift your CDP...now dont act innocent

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#32 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 13:41

Look who is talking...you yourself invite everyone to try and lift your CDP...now dont act innocent

it means you get to lift it once I invite you and only once during the whole listening session and not as and when you wish..

.. BTW it's good for your arms

Shahrukh
Inventar

#33 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 13:56

Stop it you two!!!

BTW, I did an AB of the Arita and the Diva (the dynamic standmount.) I preferred the Arita anyday!! But the real magic happened when I heard the hybrids (Avita, I think). Man I was B L O W N away. This speaker makes everything else seem so 'ordinary' and humble. This is the speaker (and amp) I want when I have the money to afford it. That soundstage... ooooooh... you could walk right through it

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#34 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 14:13

Stop it you two!!!

Dude!!! where are you back from????

Shahrukh
Inventar

#35 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 14:22

SUB_BOSS schrieb:

Stop it you two!!!

Dude!!! where are you back from????

...from a much needed break back home in Cal!!!

SUB_BOSS
Gesperrt

#36 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 14:41

from a much needed break back home in Cal!!!

ooh I love cal... it's indeed a city of joy.. Did you visit any dealers???

Shahrukh
Inventar

#37 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 14:49

I contacted Japonica to audition the Paadigms but the guys didn't seems to care much!! Hey, it's Cal!!

Anyway, I think we're kinda hijacking Savyasaachi's thread here.

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#38 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 16:03

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Bombaywalla said:

Jolida hybrid amps 1301, 1501. These are very affordable & have very good sound for the money. Their fully-tube amps are 60W/ch max. I have 1 of these & they can drive my 89dB speakers just fine.

Which speakers are you driving with the 60 Watt Jolidas ?

How large is your room ?

Thanks

Well, I have driven 2 sets of speakers with this all-tube 60W/ch JoLida: Green Mountain 3-way floorstanders (89dB) & my Tannoy DMT12 Mk2 (94dB). I was apprehensive about the 89dB speaker but it turned out to be just fine. In fact, it was quite magical! As it so happens, both these speakers are nearly flat impedance across the audio band-the 89dB one is 6 ohms & the DMT12 is 8 ohms. Both are 1st-order x-over.
My room is a touch larger - 400 sq-ft.
Hope that this clarifies.

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#39 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 16:19

screamgigi schrieb:

really!

From whatever I have read, the propah audiophile choice is the 1st one you listed - SE 7-8W/ch or less. Atleast, this is what many people here in the Western world are after esp. the Japanese.

screamgigi schrieb:

I would personally prefer a Class AB1 Push Pull biased such that the first few watts are Class A. My device of choice would be PP Pentode or Tetrode in UL or Triode connection.

If you are looking for more than 30 watts than consider moving up (or down!) to SS. Although a pair of KT88/6550 can deliver more than 30 watts in Class A easily, but IMHO a KT88 is like a 2N3055 BJT. You may like or dislike the sound.

The JoLida 60W/ch that I have is a beam-tetrode KT88/6550 based amp that is design in UL mode. Sounds pretty good for the money. Not as open as those amps not employing any negative feedback.

screamgigi schrieb:

Unless exceptionally well made with very high quality ironware and components, a high-powered tube amp will sound like a PA rig. And it wont be cheap either.

interesting comment! I have little experience w/ higher output tube amps (i.e. 100W/ch & above) so I cannot comment.
However, I seem to agree w/ you that the quality of iron used therein is of paramount importance. Even if the parts are not good in the stock unit, they can be upgraded later. However, the xformers are nearly impossible to upgrade.

screamgigi schrieb:

Now the question of speaker sensitivity wrt tube amp such as the cadence 30 watter. From practical experience I can say that an 88dB speaker should not pose a problem to a 30-watt tube amp. Rather it will sound nicer and more balanced than a FR 96dB speaker. Inefficient speakers are a problem only if you have less than 3~4 watts. Again this is IMHO. During the years I used to listen to loud heavy metal, my amp was a PP EL34 driving a pair of Sonodyne FS with 12” woofers. Watts were never a problem.

Your experience may vary depending upon the situation.

I don't know what the exact relationships are between speaker & amp but I've found that heavily damped (high Q) speaker cabinets do well w/ tube amps. The reasoning I have for this is that the speaker takes care of itself easing the work for the low-DF tube amp.
I've also found that speakers that have a flat/flatter impedance curve 20Hz-20KHz do better w/ tube amps esp. low wattage tube amps. One extreme case-in-point are the Martin-Logan, Soundlab, Magnepan, Innersound ES & ribbon speakers that dip to < 3 Ohms in the bass region that need megawatt tube power amps to make them sing.
Another example are OTL amps like Atma-sphere, which like 8 ohms or higher speakers.
Same deal for Coincident speaker (Canadian, made by Israel Blum) which are 16 ohms.
So, I think that the impedance curve has a bigger bearing on whether or not the low wattage tube amp will or will not drive the speaker. FWIW.

screamgigi schrieb:

/diving back to the trenches to avoid incoming fire.

I would agree with Amp_Nut that you do not need to run for cover. This is an audio forum & we are here to discuss audio topics & listen to others opinions & suggestions. As we ALL have discovered, there is no right & no wrong in audio as it is a very subjective hobby.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#40 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 18:46

Hi Bombaywalla,

Which speaker do you use with your Tube amp ?

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#41 erstellt: 01. Sep 2006, 19:21

Amp_Nut schrieb:

Hi Bombaywalla,

Which speaker do you use with your Tube amp ?

Amp_nut,
as stated in my post #38 above. I own both speakers & flip-flop between them as the mood swings.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#42 erstellt: 02. Sep 2006, 06:42

Oops !

Thanks !

Jeeves
Stammgast

#43 erstellt: 02. Sep 2006, 08:29

AmpNut
You could look at Audio Research too...fantastic stuff though a bit pricey...but audiogon does have some deals at times.
Of course Mcintosh is another of my favourites!

[Beitrag von Jeeves am 02. Sep 2006, 08:29 bearbeitet]

screamgigi
Stammgast

#44 erstellt: 02. Sep 2006, 11:41

Amp_Nut schrieb:

/diving back to the trenches to avoid incoming fire.

Hey DONT !

Your feedback and views are Much appreciated.... particularly:

a high-powered tube amp will sound like a PA rig. And it wont be cheap either.

)

Amp_Nut-ji
I wasn’t comparing the 845 to a BJT!! I would die 10 times and reborn as a gainclone if I ever do that.

The context was SE amps. 845 is one of the few tubes which will provide that euphonious tuby sound yet maintain the slam of a MOSFET monster. Make no mistakes on that. After all those 1200volts on the plate do mean something. Its just that clubbing a 845 with other assorted small DHT’s look so un-natural, thought it’s a DHT at the end of the day.

Regarding the Union Research amp, I can visualize the high $$$$ the way you describe the topology. Each PP pair having it’s own tertiary winding sounds quite a design and manufacturing feat. Are you sure it is not a conventional PPP amp? I recall in one forum guys were tearing apart the UR 845 amplifier. Quite justifiably so it seems. That model used tiny 12AX7’s in SRPP to drive 845. It is possible to do so but like many I found the design a bit absurd and technically mediocre.

screamgigi
Stammgast

#45 erstellt: 02. Sep 2006, 11:57

bombaywalla schrieb:

screamgigi schrieb:

really!

From whatever I have read, the propah audiophile choice is the 1st one you listed - SE 7-8W/ch or less. Atleast, this is what many people here in the Western world are after esp. the Japanese.

screamgigi schrieb:

The JoLida 60W/ch that I have is a beam-tetrode KT88/6550 based amp that is design in UL mode. Sounds pretty good for the money. Not as open as those amps not employing any negative feedback.

screamgigi schrieb:

Unless exceptionally well made with very high quality ironware and components, a high-powered tube amp will sound like a PA rig. And it wont be cheap either.

screamgigi schrieb:

/diving back to the trenches to avoid incoming fire.

Bombaywalla-ji

I listed my ideal points for SE and PP. The propah audio choice, again IMHO, would be both. That sentence addresses both the topologies.

However, the ultimate hi-fi choice would be SE 45, 50 or 2A3. I have heard all of these tubes. It helps that I have a big stash of these. All bought for approx Rs. 35 to 100 in military, railways and DOT surplus sales.

Ironware:
Yes you are right. OPT,. PT and Chokes have the most influence on tube sound. Caps, wires even tubes are secondary. And good iron usually is expensive. So if you expect to hear magical sound in high power tube amp, be prepared to pay high $$$’s. I would be wary of picking up a $500 amp that promises 70 watts.

Damping:
Yes you are partially right, but folks have widely differing opinion on this. For instance a Class AB Push Pull Pentode/Tetrode may like to see a highly damped speaker. A SE Triode amp is ok with a low Q speaker.

That brings us to the question ‘exactly what is damping? In most basic explanation it is the ratio of the speaker impedance and your amp source impedance. How much damping? Some swear anything less than 200 is unaccptable. Some are Ok with 100. Some are ok with 20. It all interwines very finely; your amp, speakers, wires, music, etc.

There is an additional aspect. Damping factor reading is usually taken at high outputs, but at lower output most amps will demonstrate a DF which is at least 5~10 times lower. This is particularly true when Class AB Push Pull amps with a low standing current are involved. This phenomenon is somewhat absent in case of a Class A SE triode amp thereby reducing the impact of DF in our listening experience. A typical SE Class A will be a have DF of 20 or so. A case of less is adequate.

screamgigi
Stammgast

#46 erstellt: 02. Sep 2006, 12:18

As posted some entries earlier, my idea of practical tube hi-fi would be:

SE: 7 to 8 watts.
PP: Max 30 watts, ideally 15~18 watts in triode strapped Class A pentode.

If I need more power in SE, I would look at 845. But that is a different world altogether with voltage in excess of 1kv.

In PP the hi-fi limit would be 30watts in Class AB, with the first 9~12 watts in Class A. I would use EL34/KT66 or EL37. More tube options could be 807 or the older 6L6G. In this case PO will be less in triode wired.

It is possible to get 50 or even 70 wpc from a pair of EL34. But memories of my local cinema start floating in my mind. I don’t want that.

I could try a pair of KT88 for higher PO. By all accounts it’s a sexy tube. NOS GEC KT88 can be had for Rs.1600/pair in Mumbai- I last checked a couple of yrs ago. But I like the Cadence approach. They have a 30 watter EL34 on offer. For higher PO they took a radical step and went all out in having a PPP 845 amp.

I like that.

Neutral
Stammgast

#47 erstellt: 02. Sep 2006, 14:13

I'm lost on this tube stuff. Would you be kind enough to give a little explanation on:
SE
PO
845
EL34
KT88
SRPP
3055

Scream, would you care to try.

The rest of the audiophile community does need a bit of edu

on this stuff. We don't much beyond Bipolar and Mosfet in SS.

screamgigi
Stammgast

#48 erstellt: 02. Sep 2006, 14:57

Sorry Neutral-ji

SE = Single End
PO = Power Out
845 = A Directly Heated Triode (DHT) 1st made in the 1920’s. Lights up like a table lamp. Takes 1500 volts to really sing! Still in production.
EL34 = Indirectly Heated audio output pentode.
KT88 = Indirectly Heated Beam Power Tetrode
SRPP = Its an arrangement where one triode sits on the head of another.
3055 = 2N3055. Any diy’er and his cat must have built at least one SS amp using these ubiquitous BJT devices

Please also read a correction in my posts above. PPP (Parallel Push Pull) should be PSE (Parallel Single Ended). More E&OE in the posts.

Amp_Nut
Inventar

#49 erstellt: 02. Sep 2006, 16:01

Jeeves said :

You could look at Audio Research too...fantastic stuff though a bit pricey...but audiogon does have some deals at times.
Of course Mcintosh is another of my favourites!

I always looked up to AR... till I heard one. Its sound quality did not live upto my expectations.

McIntosh, is to me almost like Black Label whiskey... Cant fault it, but not there with the very best...

Its all a matter of taste... and there are some on this forum who dont appreciate good whiskey

sbfx
Stammgast

#50 erstellt: 02. Sep 2006, 17:33

Hi Amp_Nut,

You should look at cary V12R EL34 based amps lots of power and sound very sweet, I heard them with WLM speakers really good sound for the price.

http://www.caryaudio.com/products/classic/V12R.html

I also have a jadis defy 7 MK IV for sale if you are interested let me know.

Will chat with you tomm.

Regards,

Satyam.

bombaywalla
Stammgast

#51 erstellt: 03. Sep 2006, 06:17

screamgigi schrieb:

Screamgigi,
your comments are taken in the correct spirit by me.

Yes, the topic of damping factor - we can have a raging debate!

A case for another thread - needless to say.
I agree w/ you that the numbers for adequate DF varies all over the map! Suffice it to say that you have written a good succinct version of the (raging) debate.